What happen fleet that UFP used simler fleet what used retake Deep space nine during Sacrifice of Angels"to do mission of battle of Endor

[enigma 521]

However, Enigma you do have to admit that your scenerio of the DS2 hitting the E-E with it's superlaser is just as far fetched. It takes a very long time to charge, and isn't easily aimed. The E-E would have to be outright disabled, floating dead in space to not move out of the way.

 

 

 

It did not take the DS2 long to recharge the SL. It took one day for the original to recharge. It only took a minute or two for the DS2.

 

 

 

The DS2 could hit the E-E if it were to stay still while opening hailing frequencies. You think they'd be bobbing and weaving when the fight hasn't started yet? No Feds have been shown to take evasive maneuvers BEFORE hostilities start.

[Tyralak 12,068]

It did not take the DS2 long to recharge the SL. It took one day for the original to recharge. It only took a minute or two for the DS2.

 

 

 

The DS2 could hit the E-E if it were to stay still while opening hailing frequencies. You think they'd be bobbing and weaving when the fight hasn't started yet? No Feds have been shown to take evasive maneuvers BEFORE hostilities start.

 

 

 

Lay off the crack pipe. They detect weapons charging, especially with that kind of power output, they would move out of the way quick. This is assuming they were smack in front of the thing to begin with. It's something along the lines of trying to maneuver the Arecibo Observatory to point at something. Hint: The whole damn planet has to move.

[enigma 521]

Wow and the Rebels knew that the DS2 was able to fire it's SL? They didn't! You don't think they'd check? But what you don't realize is that the DS2 already had the SL powered up. The moment the E-E notices that it is too late. Besides even if it misses the E-E there is always the possibility that it would hit another Feddie. The DS2 can fire at it's target as long as it is within visual range and necessarily straight ahead of it.

 

 

 

The emperor was laying an ambush. The SL was already charged and was on standby until the trap was sprung. Tell me that the Feds would have done better.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Yes. Fed sensors detect that shit very easily. We've seen over and over them knowing when a ship's weapons are powered. We haven't seen anything in the movies to indicate that SW ships have the capability to detect charged weapons. As far as the eu goes, I haven't combed through every novel so there might be some reference somewhere. Also, once again they would have to PARK THEMSELVES IN FRONT OF THE DAMN THING! JASON is smart enough to not do that! Nobody in their right mind would park themselves in front of one of the largest weapons they've ever seen. Be realistic here.

[enigma 521]

We are talking about the Feds here. They stand still and take the first hit before firing.

 

 

 

First things first. The Fed fleet replaces the Rebel fleet and they'll be disoriented. Next, they'll notice the Empire's fleet plus the DS2. Would that phase them? No it won't. The E-E's crew are not the only ones that have encountered strange beings\constructs\anomalies. Also the fleet will notice but do nothing but maybe place themselves on Yellow or Red Alert because they'll rationalize the Empire's fleet and DS2's weapons being hot because of the sudden appearance of the Fed fleet. Whoever commands the fleet (it cant be the E-E since they were not part of the retaking of DS9. I used the E-E as a joke not as a serious discussion and I should have said that earlier. So maybe the Defiant?) would open hailing frequencies hoping to defuse the situation. Unfortunately for the Feds, no matter what there will be a fight and the lead ship or (most likely) the largest Fed ship will be blown to pieces. This is a scenario that the Feds cannot win.

 

 

 

Do not include Jason into this because if he was in charge he'll have everyone in the fleet end up disabled by way of burning out the deflector dishes. It would be the biggest blunder in sci-fi history. It is tantamount in going into a boxing match against a heavyweight champion and you're a 90 pound weakling that thinks using your balls is a good tactic in defeating your opponent.

[paul 11,988]

We are talking about the Feds here. They stand still and take the first hit before firing.

 

 

 

First things first. The Fed fleet replaces the Rebel fleet and they'll be disoriented. Next, they'll notice the Empire's fleet plus the DS2. Would that phase them? No it won't. The E-E's crew are not the only ones that have encountered strange beings\constructs\anomalies. Also the fleet will notice but do nothing but maybe place themselves on Yellow or Red Alert because they'll rationalize the Empire's fleet and DS2's weapons being hot because of the sudden appearance of the Fed fleet. Whoever commands the fleet (it cant be the E-E since they were not part of the retaking of DS9. I used the E-E as a joke not as a serious discussion and I should have said that earlier. So maybe the Defiant?) would open hailing frequencies hoping to defuse the situation. Unfortunately for the Feds, no matter what there will be a fight and the lead ship or (most likely) the largest Fed ship will be blown to pieces. This is a scenario that the Feds cannot win.

 

 

 

Do not include Jason into this because if he was in charge he'll have everyone in the fleet end up disabled by way of burning out the deflector dishes. It would be the biggest blunder in sci-fi history. It is tantamount in going into a boxing match against a heavyweight champion and you're a 90 pound weakling that thinks using your balls is a good tactic in defeating your opponent.

 

 

 

 

 

You seriously are fucking retarded.

 

 

 

1. Like it's been stated, they aren't going to sit infront of a HUGE ass weapon no matter how you want to justify it. Wouldn't happen ever. No fed captain in a full fleet would sit and say "Oh look they're powering up this huge ass beam we should sit infront of it!"
2. Assuming they would see the weapon build up and not do anything is retarded. They would yes attempt to communicate but they wouldn't stand there knowing that beam could blow them to pieces.
3. The beam is not exactly mobile. So yes they could split off fairly easily and be out of line of target without doing much maneuvering. Unless you're saying the DS can rotate as fast as a tie fighter which then you're on some serious crack and need to lay off the pipe.

And no, not even jason would be that stupid to stand infront of it letting his fleet get blown to pieces.

[enigma 521]

You seriously are fucking retarded.

 

 

 

1. Like it's been stated, they aren't going to sit infront of a HUGE ass weapon no matter how you want to justify it. Wouldn't happen ever. No fed captain in a full fleet would sit and say "Oh look they're powering up this huge ass beam we should sit infront of it!"

 

 

 

HEY SHITWAD. THE WEAPON WAS ALREADY CHARGED! The empire was laying a trap for the Rebels! They did not get a warning!

 

 

 

I did not say that the fleet would sit in front of it but the DS2 has at least the range of at minimum two planetary diameters (AFAIK Earth sized, so that would be at least 60,000km or something like 40,000miles?). The Feds are always "talk first, shoot last" especially when they get dumped into an unfamiliar place. The Feds would most likely think that the Empire were just defending themselves from an unknown aggressor and will decide to talk to the Empire first. You'd think they'll immediately start evading and at the same time try to diffuse the situation? The Empire will sucker punch the fleet and then maybe the DS will have a harder time tracking the fleet with it's SL.

 

 

 

You honestly think that the Feds first encounter with a new species is to immiediately go into a defensive posture?

 

 

 

• Assuming they would see the weapon build up and not do anything is retarded. They would yes attempt to communicate but they wouldn't stand there knowing that beam could blow them to pieces.

 

 

 

They would not see it charged as the it would have been charged before the fleet arrived. Remember? The Emperor wanted to ambush the Rebels making them think that the DS was not operational. What makes you think that the Feds would be any different? The Feds reaction is explained above. In other words, Feds will thin that the Empire has their weapons hot because of the Feds sudden arrival. They'll try to communicate but instead have at least one ship out of up to what 1200? blown to pieces. Are you really being fucking retarded thinking that the Empire would try to sucker punch the fleet?

 

 

 

• The beam is not exactly mobile. So yes they could split off fairly easily and be out of line of target without doing much maneuvering. Unless you're saying the DS can rotate as fast as a tie fighter which then you're on some serious crack and need to lay off the pipe.

 

 

 

First of all the Fed fleet would not be close to the DS2 due to the shielding and it is far enough from the DS2 itself to allow the SL some leeway to attack without the DS2 itself needing to readjust it's position. Also with the help of the Empire's fleet, they will attempt to box in the Fed fleet to give the SL more time to hit more targets. So yes the Feds will eventually move away from the SL so as not to be hit by it but the SL will have at least have fired twice.

 

 

 

 

 

And no, not even jason would be that stupid to stand infront of it letting his fleet get blown to pieces.

 

 

 

Jason is worse. Not only would he stand in front of the SL but will firmly believe that his ship will absorb the shot and will order every ship to disable itself by firing all deflector dishes.

[paul 11,988]

...You do know that the federation ships do know when weapons are charged (powered up) even if they aren't monitoring for power up signatures... explain (and i'd seriously LOVE to see how you get around this one) how any moron in command of a starship would not notice a significant power buildup (or charge) and not think.. holy shit it's got it's weapons ready to fire?

 

 

 

Now as for your first contact situation - The federation does not send an entire FLEET for FC. Never ever. As it's a sign of aggression. It would send one ship MAYBE 3. If it's sending that many it's prepared for battle as is.

 

 

 

Next illogical statement please.

[enigma 521]

Funny as the OP states that involves the fleet from SoA. The fleet replaces the Rebels, so they would not be far from the Empire's fleet. Sending three means nothing when a fleet of up to 1200 ships pops up out of nowhere close to the emperor's feet. Besides, sending upwards of three ships to go up and try to talk to the Imperial fleet only give them a clearer targeting solution for the SL.

 

 

 

As to the Feds detecting power built up. Who cares? The Feds will rationalize that it was because of their sudden appearance. Earlier I stated that the Feds as a precaution would go into either Yellow or Red alert just in case the Empire attacked them.

 

 

 

You seem to think that the DS2 would not be able to hit the Feds even once. The moment the battle starts, the DS2 will be guaranteed at least one hit if not two by the time the Fed fleet maneuvers themselves away.

 

 

 

You are also assuming that the Federation thinks with it's guns when countless evidence shows that they prefer to talk to their opponents with their hand up and outwards. They almost always present themselves as being peaceful and will act accordingly. The only time they shoot first is when they are at war.

 

 

 

Remember how Q accused humanity to be an aggressive and barbarous race? Remember when he threw them towards a Borg Cube for the first time? What did he tell Picard? He tried to get him to immediately attack the Borg for no reason despite the threat that the Borg posed. What happened? The E-D got it's ass kicked and had to be rescued by Q. Feds will chat to their doom.

[Questor 501]

All I'm going to bring up is that it is certainly possible that there is so much energy involved in the DS2 that telling if it is charged is difficult. For all we know, the SL charging would look like noise.

 

 

 

That said, even the feds are not stupid enough to not have some defenses on standby. My guess would be that they would have the warp engines on standby. Given that the SL is not a lightspeed weapon, there is every chance they'd be able to be their normal space hippy selves and still survive.

[paul 11,988]

Funny as the OP states that involves the fleet from SoA. The fleet replaces the Rebels, so they would not be far from the Empire's fleet. Sending three means nothing when a fleet of up to 1200 ships pops up out of nowhere close to the emperor's feet. Besides, sending upwards of three ships to go up and try to talk to the Imperial fleet only give them a clearer targeting solution for the SL.

 

 

 

As to the Feds detecting power built up. Who cares? The Feds will rationalize that it was because of their sudden appearance. Earlier I stated that the Feds as a precaution would go into either Yellow or Red alert just in case the Empire attacked them.

 

 

 

You seem to think that the DS2 would not be able to hit the Feds even once. The moment the battle starts, the DS2 will be guaranteed at least one hit if not two by the time the Fed fleet maneuvers themselves away.

 

 

 

You are also assuming that the Federation thinks with it's guns when countless evidence shows that they prefer to talk to their opponents with their hand up and outwards. They almost always present themselves as being peaceful and will act accordingly. The only time they shoot first is when they are at war.

 

 

 

Remember how Q accused humanity to be an aggressive and barbarous race? Remember when he threw them towards a Borg Cube for the first time? What did he tell Picard? He tried to get him to immediately attack the Borg for no reason despite the threat that the Borg posed. What happened? The E-D got it's ass kicked and had to be rescued by Q. Feds will chat to their doom.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course i'm assuming. DUH Because this is a hypothetical situation that'll NEVER happen. We can only assume and speculate. As for replacing rebel ships with SoA fleet - that defeats your whole statement then. If we go by that, then they're ready for war as is. They're not going to play the peace game NOR would they have sent the fleet in if it's for first contact situation. Never ever ever. Name one situation (and i do mean ANY situation from any show or movie) where the federation sent a large tactical fleet to do a peace mission. You won't come up with one because there never has been. As for the first contact borg encounter - that is a totally different situation by FAR as it doesn't even compare to this situation.

 

 

 

 

[paul 11,988]

All I'm going to bring up is that it is certainly possible that there is so much energy involved in the DS2 that telling if it is charged is difficult. For all we know, the SL charging would look like noise.

 

 

 

That said, even the feds are not stupid enough to not have some defenses on standby. My guess would be that they would have the warp engines on standby. Given that the SL is not a lightspeed weapon, there is every chance they'd be able to be their normal space hippy selves and still survive.

 

 

 

The amount of power that thing channels I highly doubt the sensors couldn't pick up that massive buildup of energy sitting waiting to go poop on someone.

[Jason 27]

If the UFP going send a fleet likes that it not just shows. I never once seen a fleet of that size used for anything but attack mission. Why bother using main defector dish right away. UFP starship goes close to Endor as they can with touching the shields. Let the Death star try hit them. THe blast of the Death star can not be good for Endor shields most likely blast hole thought the shields allow Defiant class starship fly thought hole and destroy main shield generation. Remember that hole in Death star rebels starship and starfighters. A Galaxy class starship fire main defector dish into blow that secound Death star sky high.

[Questor 501]

The amount of power that thing channels I highly doubt the sensors couldn't pick up that massive buildup of energy sitting waiting to go poop on someone.

 

 

 

That really depends on the power requirements of the other systems. It seems to me that maintaining any kind of shield on that thing - let alone the kind of shields implied by traditional ship design theory - alone would take a tremendous amount of energy. Throw in propulsion, hyperdrive, sensors, non-superlaser weapons, and I'd imagine that you get a rather impressive number.

 

 

 

Not really arguing this point, as I agree with you, just playing a little bit of devils advocate.

[Praeothmin 532]

First of all, before we start flinging insults at each other, there's something that needs to be clarified:

 

By replacing the fleets, do we also replace their purpose?

 

I mean, is the ST fleet now aware of the DS2, the Empire, and are they fighting to free the Galaxy from that Tyranny?

 

If so, then no, the Feds will not be standing by with their thumbs up their asses waiting to see what the Empire will do, they'll be coming in guns blazing, and with the numbers they have on their side, they will cream the Endor fleet, all the while being bright enough not to stay in front of the "Huge Cannon of Death" to be shot down.

 

With it's Endor shields down, the incomplete DS2 will be slowly taken apart by thousands upon thousands of Photon and Quantum Torpedoes fired by hundreds of ships...

 

Of course, if the jamming field affects them, then they will be taken by surprise by the fleet, and the DS2, and will lose a few more ships in the fight, BUT THEY STILL WIN, simply because we are taking about a fleet of 600 hundred Capital ships, compared to the 30-ish ships the Rebels had...

 

 

 

Unless, of course, you are a SW wanker, in which case you plug your fingers in your ears and say "I can't hear you, the ICS is GOD, Gigatonz for da winzzzzzzzz"...

 

 

 

 

 

In the case where the ST fleet replaces the Endor one without the knowledge of the Rebels, they still win...

 

They were going to war, and all of a sudden find themselves in an unknown location, facing an unknown group, which they would most likely believe is allied with the Dominion, so Shields would be up, Weapons charged, and THEN they would try to talk...

 

If the Imperials attack, again ST wins, but with a bit more losses still, since the Empire will be able to fire the first volley, and ships like Mirandas would not survive this, IMO...

 

 

 

But in any scenario, when a fleet of Capital ships 600 in size faces of with an incomplete Battle station and 30-ish ships, not bristling with 40000+ guns, not firing 2-3 shots per second, the fleet will win... Again, unless you are a complete SW wanker...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

If the UFP going send a fleet likes that it not just shows. I never once seen a fleet of that size used for anything but attack mission. Why bother using main defector dish right away. UFP starship goes close to Endor as they can with touching the shields. Let the Death star try hit them. THe blast of the Death star can not be good for Endor shields most likely blast hole thought the shields allow Defiant class starship fly thought hole and destroy main shield generation. Remember that hole in Death star rebels starship and starfighters. A Galaxy class starship fire main defector dish into blow that secound Death star sky high.

 

They cant use the deflector dish in the way you describe without hours of modification anyway jackass. The DeathStar fired through its shields at the rebel fleet just fine assmonkey

[InvaderSkooj 1]

But in any scenario, when a fleet of Capital ships 600 in size faces of with an incomplete Battle station and 30-ish ships, not bristling with 40000+ guns, not firing 2-3 shots per second, the fleet will win... Again, unless you are a complete SW wanker...

Fully Armed and Operational battlestation so quoth the emperor. And funny how quick you ditch the Clone Wars visuals when they hurt your position

 

 

 

 

Note the multiple bolts moving along the same general trajectory, my use of 2 rather than 4-6 shots/second is conservative

[Praeothmin 532]

Fully Armed and Operational battlestation so quoth the emperor. And funny how quick you ditch the Clone Wars visuals when they hurt your position

 

 

 

 

Note the multiple bolts moving along the same general trajectory, my use of 2 rather than 4-6 shots/second is conservative

 

 

 

Hmm, you mean the same Clone Wars showing that Walkers are a threat to fully shielded Capital ships, proving that SW Capships at the time of the CW have weak shields and hulls?

 

 

 

Anyways, while the ships in the Clone Wars (which I haven't watched in its entirety), or even those of RotS btw, can and do fire bolts very, very rapidly (although are we sure each cannon fires more then 1 bolt per second, or are we seeing multiple cannons firing simultaneously), we are talking about the ships seen in RotJ.

 

Remember those ships, the ones that barely fired 1 bolt per second per ship?

 

Not the same ships, not the same displayed capacity on film.

 

 

 

And the fully operational Battlestation quote, unless you'd have us believe that the incomplete parts have invisible Turbolaser batteries, refers to the Superlaser, which no one said didn't work...

 

See here how much volume was missing:

 

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/e/ee/DeathStar2.jpg

 

 

 

And, AFAIK, we haven't seen that DS fire any Turbolaser shots at all, only its Superlaser.

 

So again, no 40000+ Turbolasers firing 2-3 shots per second...

[WalksInDarkness 4]

Jason,

 

 

 

I think the more relevant question is: If stranded on Endor, who would be more likely to get "Freaky" with an Ewok - The UFP, or the Empire?

[paul 11,988]

Jason,

 

 

 

I think the more relevant question is: If stranded on Endor, who would be more likely to get "Freaky" with an Ewok - The UFP, or the Empire?

 

 

 

Well if that's the case.. the UFP of course

[InvaderSkooj 1]

snip

Well since you want to cherry pick, we know they still lose since a GCS, their most powerful ship, is vulnerable to 400GW weapons, has trouble generating terawatt range power, and needs to expend most its torpedoes to blow up a 8km asteroid full of deep crevasses.

[WalksInDarkness 4]

Well if that's the case.. the UFP of course

 

 

 

No way, Kirk and Riker will bang ANYTHING that moves. If they had been in the same timeframe, I am sure they would have collaborated to make movies together ala Bob Krane (and whoever his creepy sidekick was).

[Praeothmin 532]

Well since you want to cherry pick, we know they still lose since a GCS, their most powerful ship, is vulnerable to 400GW weapons, has trouble generating terawatt range power, and needs to expend most its torpedoes to blow up a 8km asteroid full of deep crevasses.

 

 

 

If by "cherry-picking", you mean "keeping in mind the different capacities shown by different types of ships in different times and not mixing them up to fit my desires", then I guess you're right.

 

Acclamators can land on planets, are you now going to tell us that ISDs did as well?

 

No ISD in any prequel has ever shown the ROF you try to attribute to it, so why should we believe they can?

 

Because you wish it?

 

 

 

It's not my fault you yourself cherry-pick information and assign it to any ship regardless of their actual shown capacities.

 

I'm not choosing one single instance of low ROF for ISDs, I choose all shown instances of battles seen in all three prequels, while your examples are counter-balanced by equal, if not more numerous examples of greater resilience and firepower from the GCS and numerous other ST ships throughout the series.

 

Ignoring those facts is truly what should be called "cherry-picking", something you so often like to do...

 

 

 

So, again, no 2-3 shots per second for your precious ISDs, and no 40000+ Turbolasers...

[Khas 12,158]

Jason,

 

 

 

I think the more relevant question is: If stranded on Endor, who would be more likely to get "Freaky" with an Ewok - The UFP, or the Empire?

 

 

 

Neither. Jason would.