Questor 501 Posted November 16, 2009 Yeah, if it's ray shielded, it's unlikely a transporter beam could penetrate. If it wasn't I'm certain it could be used as a waveguide. Being in the communications industry, I know a thing or two about frequencies. I can definitely explain how the vent could be used as a waveguide. In fact, the very thing that would inhibit direct beaming into the core would ENHANCE the effectiveness of beaming through the vent. It would keep the signal attenuation to a bare minimum, while virtually eliminating egress. It's the same reason you don't bury 1000 feet of RG-59 and expect anything usable out the other end. You would use RG-11. While my elementary understanding of radio would agree with you. Dodonna says that it is ray shielded in the briefing. That's why they have to use proton torpedoes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 16, 2009 While my elementary understanding of radio would agree with you. Dodonna says that it is ray shielded in the briefing. That's why they have to use proton torpedoes. Exactly. It's a moot point unless the shielding could be somehow brought down. It could certainly work then. But it's a known fact that it was ray shielded. And ray shields are designed to block energy weapons like blasters and Turbolasters, not KE projectiles like torpedoes. Now we come to the purely bizarre and speculative. A pattern buffer device encased inside a Proton torpedo carrying the pattern of a Tri-Cobolt device. Total fanwank, but fun to think of nonetheless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted November 16, 2009 Exactly. It's a moot point unless the shielding could be somehow brought down. It could certainly work then. But it's a known fact that it was ray shielded. And ray shields are designed to block energy weapons like blasters and Turbolasters, not KE projectiles like torpedoes. Now we come to the purely bizarre and speculative. A pattern buffer device encased inside a Proton torpedo carrying the pattern of a Tri-Cobolt device. Total fanwank, but fun to think of nonetheless. This weapon has some potential. I like your thinking. Sadly, it comes nowhere close to the badassery of Jedi-fanwank, but it is still a cool idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jason 27 Posted November 17, 2009 I have a question were do people got idia ray shield anyway. It was not in the movie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted November 17, 2009 I have a question were do people got idia ray shield anyway. It was not in the movie. You really need to watch the movie, its mentioned in the briefing scene 3:12 in Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jason 27 Posted November 17, 2009 Yes but that not evidence that the hole in that death star is rayshielded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 17, 2009 Yes but that not evidence that the hole in that death star is rayshielded. "The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use Proton Torpedoes." Sounds like it to me. I think it's best we focus our arguments on circumventing it, rather than arguing about it not being there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted November 17, 2009 "The shaft is ray-shielded, so you'll have to use Proton Torpedoes." Sounds like it to me. I think it's best we focus our arguments on circumventing it, rather than arguing about it not being there. Especially when it clearly is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 17, 2009 Especially when it clearly is. Yeah, that's kind of an odd thing to argue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 17, 2009 Yeah, if it's ray shielded, it's unlikely a transporter beam could penetrate. If it wasn't I'm certain it could be used as a waveguide. Being in the communications industry, I know a thing or two about frequencies. I can definitely explain how the vent could be used as a waveguide. In fact, the very thing that would inhibit direct beaming into the core would ENHANCE the effectiveness of beaming through the vent. It would keep the signal attenuation to a bare minimum, while virtually eliminating egress. It's the same reason you don't bury 1000 feet of RG-59 and expect anything usable out the other end. You would use RG-11. Well, the waveguide idea came from my Technical classes in radio transmissions. If the shaft was indeed a straigth tunnel, and with nothing to interfere with the transmission, it could work with, as you say, minimal attenuation. But that's the catch: How do we know there isn't a ton of interference inside that shaft, caused by adjacent systems and/or the DS's core? Plus that pesky ray shield that everyone except Jason remembers is there... A pattern buffer device encased inside a Proton torpedo carrying the pattern of a Tri-Cobolt device. Total fanwank, but fun to think of nonetheless. Well, the problem is that pattern buffers/enhancers, again, will be used to beam from, or to, the area enclosed by them. If you include them in the Tricobalt device, all it will do is allow you to keep a lock on the torpedo and beam it back to the ship in case of issues. It will not, in any way, allow you to beam inside the DS where there's no buffers/enhancers to help beaming in... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jason 27 Posted November 18, 2009 I am not so sure that ray shield for that matter would stop the Pattern enhancer. In Star Trek Nemesis the smell emergency transport unit device could beam though shields then I think Pattern Enhancers could also beam though ray shields. Otherwise it would have been suicide for Caption Picard to use that device that Date was offering him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 18, 2009 Well, the waveguide idea came from my Technical classes in radio transmissions. If the shaft was indeed a straigth tunnel, and with nothing to interfere with the transmission, it could work with, as you say, minimal attenuation. But that's the catch: How do we know there isn't a ton of interference inside that shaft, caused by adjacent systems and/or the DS's core? Plus that pesky ray shield that everyone except Jason remembers is there... Well, it doesn't even have to be straight to act as a waveguide. In fact, most transmission mediums that use that principle aren't straight. Go back to the coax example. Coax is made of dialectric material in between a copper (or copper clad steel) center conductor and a braided/foil shielding. The signal is sent down the cable essentially 'bouncing' from the center conductor to the shielding and back passing through the dialectric. Extreme bends will cause the cable to not function as well but it is still designed to work in other than a straight line. So I can't see the conduit being an issue even if it were not straight. However I do recall the briefing animation showing a more or less straight shot. As for the interference, well that's the wildcard here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 18, 2009 Well, it doesn't even have to be straight to act as a waveguide. In fact, most transmission mediums that use that principle aren't straight. Go back to the coax example. Coax is made of dialectric material in between a copper (or copper clad steel) center conductor and a braided/foil shielding. The signal is sent down the cable essentially 'bouncing' from the center conductor to the shielding and back passing through the dialectric. Extreme bends will cause the cable to not function as well but it is still designed to work in other than a straight line. So I can't see the conduit being an issue even if it were not straight. However I do recall the briefing animation showing a more or less straight shot. As for the interference, well that's the wildcard here. Yeah, shouldn't have said straight, I should have said uninterrupted, with no side passages acting as splitters... Can you imagine half the beam going to its target and half somewhere else? What you describe in copper is the same in optical fibers. But just as in fibers, any thing that blocks the signal, even partially, or even bends or breaks in the fiber will cause loss of signal, either in power or in information. I'm sure that in this case, a large BER would be counterproductive... I am not so sure that ray shield for that matter would stop the Pattern enhancer. In Star Trek Nemesis the smell emergency transport unit device could beam though shields then I think Pattern Enhancers could also beam though ray shields. Otherwise it would have been suicide for Caption Picard to use that device that Date was offering him. When did this device allow transportation through shields? When the E-E rammed the Scimitar, it brought its shields down... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jason 27 Posted November 19, 2009 No after Date getting into the place Pricard being held a prisoner and Dater had disable that enemy doctor. If it could not Date aiming to kill Pricard first. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 19, 2009 No after Date getting into the place Pricard being held a prisoner and Dater had disable that enemy doctor. If it could not Date aiming to kill Pricard first. While I don't remember if the Remans actually beamed Picard while the E-E's shields were up (in which case the Remans' transporter can, not the Starfleet's), I do remember Picard and Data not beaming back to the E-E. Why's that do you think? Because both ships' shields were up, and they couldn't beam through, which is why we saw the "Die-Hard" moment with Picard and Data getting out with a Reman Fighter through the ship... Jason, please, oh please, stop coming baclk with points that have already been debunked with the same damn argument... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted November 19, 2009 While I don't remember if the Remans actually beamed Picard while the E-E's shields were up (in which case the Remans' transporter can, not the Starfleet's), I do remember Picard and Data not beaming back to the E-E. Why's that do you think? Because both ships' shields were up, and they couldn't beam through, which is why we saw the "Die-Hard" moment with Picard and Data getting out with a Reman Fighter through the ship... Jason, please, oh please, stop coming baclk with points that have already been debunked with the same damn argument... When they captured picard the shields were down (because it was supposed to be a peaceful gathering.) They raised the shields after it happened (Ahh the scene where troi says she's been violated... HEHE!) and the scimitar was cloaked thus the enterprise couldn't get a lock on the captain or data. Had nothing to do with shields. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jason 27 Posted November 20, 2009 My link Got to this site you will find these lines to back my clain. On Scimitar B-4 enters and tells the Reman guard that Shinzon wants the prisoner. As the guard releases Picard, B-4, actually Data posing as B-4, gives the Reman a Vulcan nerve pinch to incapacitate him. After completely freeing Picard, Data tells Picard that Scimitar is, for all intents and purposes, an enormous thalaron generator. He also tells Picard that the information he gave Shinzon was false, created by himself and La Forge. He then offers Picard the prototype of the emergency transport unit that La Forge gave him. Since it will only work for one person, Picard says he and Data will find a way off together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted November 20, 2009 One off tech doesn't count. Especially prototypes as they are notorious for being unreliable. Nice try. Try again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted November 20, 2009 Again thats a mute point anyways. The enterprises shelds were up so regardless the transport wouldn't of worked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 20, 2009 When they captured picard the shields were down (because it was supposed to be a peaceful gathering.) They raised the shields after it happened (Ahh the scene where troi says she's been violated... HEHE!) and the scimitar was cloaked thus the enterprise couldn't get a lock on the captain or data. Had nothing to do with shields. Although we do know that the Scimitar could have its shields up even when cloaked, so maybe they were. He then offers Picard the prototype of the emergency transport unit that La Forge gave him. Since it will only work for one person, Picard says he and Data will find a way off together Data couldn't know wheter the Scimitar's shields were up or not, so the point is moot... But still, both you and Paul have shown how sketchy my memory of these scenes were, so once I get back home I'll watch them again on DVD... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted November 20, 2009 Although we do know that the Scimitar could have its shields up even when cloaked, so maybe they were. Data couldn't know wheter the Scimitar's shields were up or not, so the point is moot... But still, both you and Paul have shown how sketchy my memory of these scenes were, so once I get back home I'll watch them again on DVD... Theoretically not since they took some severe damage when they were cloaked and they were under fire by the romulans and the enterprise. (course the enterprise got it's ass handed to it hehe) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 20, 2009 Theoretically not since they took some severe damage when they were cloaked and they were under fire by the romulans and the enterprise. (course the enterprise got it's ass handed to it hehe) What heavy damage? And as you said, they were under fire by three ships, so taking damage is quite normal... But remember when the cloak was finally damaged, Geordi mentioned that the Scimitar still had 70% shield strength. Since it got fired at when cloaked, how could their shields go down to 70% if they were only raised once the cloak was lost? Answer: They couldn't, so it stands to reason that the Scimitar had shields while cloaked, even if there was energy leak through, which is common in ST shields... Heck, even in SW, damage does occur through shields, if only reduced... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted November 20, 2009 What heavy damage? And as you said, they were under fire by three ships, so taking damage is quite normal... But remember when the cloak was finally damaged, Geordi mentioned that the Scimitar still had 70% shield strength. Since it got fired at when cloaked, how could their shields go down to 70% if they were only raised once the cloak was lost? Answer: They couldn't, so it stands to reason that the Scimitar had shields while cloaked, even if there was energy leak through, which is common in ST shields... Heck, even in SW, damage does occur through shields, if only reduced... However the reason why ships do not use cloaks plus shields is because the obvious signature of the shield usage (not to mention the energy drain). the shields can be damaged while not even up (hence hitting their shield generators), so then when they did put them up they would be at a disadvantage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 20, 2009 However the reason why ships do not use cloaks plus shields is because the obvious signature of the shield usage (not to mention the energy drain). the shields can be damaged while not even up (hence hitting their shield generators), so then when they did put them up they would be at a disadvantage. Although in this case it's been made quite clear that the Scimitar was a super ship, able to use everything they had except the Thalaron weapon while cloaked... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted November 21, 2009 okay looking it up in the memory alpha db you are correct, it could raise it's shields while cloaked. I stand corrected. In the end however, the primary debate is debunked. You cannot transport thru shields so odds are they couldn't transport thru ray shielding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites