A brilliant idea, federation vs. federation

[Tyralak 12,068]

One nuke? Not so much. Dozens of 50+ Megaton nukes - I thought we had expanded this to include stuff other than what's on the suits? Without a M/ARA to provide shitloads of power? Maybe.

 

 

 

Remember, the saucer doesn't have anti-matter power, just the fusion reactors.

 

 

 

You're right about the saucer section with the M/AM reactor. I was still thinking of the entire ship with shields up. The nukes wouldn't have much effect on that.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

You're right about the saucer section with the M/AM reactor. I was still thinking of the entire ship with shields up. The nukes wouldn't have much effect on that.

Sure they would, the average yield displayed for photon torpedoes isnt anything unachievable with 1950s fusion technology.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Considering all the major Trek races abandoned fusion weapons a very long time ago, for the much more powerful animatter based weapons, I'd say that's not likely. What would be the purpose of abandoning a proven technology if the new one isn't any better? It doesn't pass the test of logic.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Considering all the major Trek races abandoned fusion weapons a very long time ago, for the much more powerful animatter based weapons, I'd say that's not likely. What would be the purpose of abandoning a proven technology if the new one isn't any better? It doesn't pass the test of logic.

Better doesnt necessarily mean more powerful. Could be smaller and lighter with a similar yield. Photon torpedoes are quite small, and light compared to a B53 bomb or other high yield fusion weapon

[Questor 501]

Better doesnt necessarily mean more powerful. Could be smaller and lighter with a similar yield. Photon torpedoes are quite small, and light compared to a B53 bomb or other high yield fusion weapon

 

 

 

Antimatter also has FAR superior Dial-a-yield capabilities, not to mention is probably easier easier for a ST level civilization to produce. They have to have antimatter for M/ARAs, so why not use the same thing for weapons?

 

 

 

Also, the question could just as easily be reversed. Why toss around multi-megaton weapons when you don't have to? Leaving aside magic armor, a skin/skin hit with a photon is still going to do ridiculous amounts of damage whether you have a 50MT warhead or a 50KT warhead. Standoff hits require the yield to go up so fast as to make even the highest numbers calculable for PTs look small. A photon with a yield of 50+ megatons is a danger to any continent it is on, and a huge danger if you are fighting in a star system.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Antimatter also has FAR superior Dial-a-yield capabilities, not to mention is probably easier easier for a ST level civilization to produce. They have to have antimatter for M/ARAs, so why not use the same thing for weapons?

 

 

 

Also, the question could just as easily be reversed. Why toss around multi-megaton weapons when you don't have to? Leaving aside magic armor, a skin/skin hit with a photon is still going to do ridiculous amounts of damage whether you have a 50MT warhead or a 50KT warhead. Standoff hits require the yield to go up so fast as to make even the highest numbers calculable for PTs look small. A photon with a yield of 50+ megatons is a danger to any continent it is on, and a huge danger if you are fighting in a star system.

 

 

 

Which is exactly why the ICS numbers are so absurd.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Which is exactly why the ICS numbers are so absurd.

There just that issue of planets being left lifeless or nearly so after orbital bombardments. Earth has been hit by at least 2 other rocks at least as powerful as the one that killed the dinosaurs. Although the firepower numbers in ICS are probably a bit exaggerated

[Tyralak 12,068]

There just that issue of planets being left lifeless or nearly so after orbital bombardments. Earth has been hit by at least 2 other rocks at least as powerful as the one that killed the dinosaurs. Although the firepower numbers in ICS are probably a bit exaggerated

 

 

 

Orbital bombardment from Trek ships have the same capability. From Memory Alpha:

 

 

 

"General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled. (TOS: "A Taste of Armageddon", "Whom Gods Destroy")"

[enigma 521]

You really are retarded. THE UFP's SOP DOES NOT INVOLVE DROPPING SAUCER SECTIONS ONTO A PLANET! They are not armored. They are useless on the ground! How will they be able to use their phasers if it isn't able to reach ground targets (this is assuming they just plop it onto the ground).

 

 

 

And you are trying to back up your claim by linking a TOS clip to demonstrate the effectiveness of a ship that doesn't exist for another 80 years or so? Down the road, not across the street, dude. Down the road.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled

This is the problem with trek, said not done. Camaas, Humbarine, Taris, Milagro, Dankayo, Emberlene, Jabiim, just off the top my head, all occurred, all feature major if not total population loss accompanied by major if not total destruction of the biosphere. The best efforts of the Dominion with superior weapons, and hundreds or thousands of ships was only 800million cardassians.

[Questor 501]

This is the problem with trek, said not done. Camaas, Humbarine, Taris, Milagro, Dankayo, Emberlene, Jabiim, just off the top my head, all occurred, all feature major if not total population loss accompanied by major if not total destruction of the biosphere. The best efforts of the Dominion with superior weapons, and hundreds or thousands of ships was only 800million cardassians.

 

 

 

Oh, please. When I participated in the debate, I was a warsie, and I wouldn't go this far.

 

 

 

You could call it a bluff once, but the fact that they talk about it twice convinces me. There is obviously, at least during KIRK'S TIME, a way for a Connie to perform a BDZ-lite type operation.

 

 

 

This, along with all of the other items, is part of what convinces me that Starfleet went through a major philosophical change sometime just after the TMP part of Generations.

[enigma 521]

Oh, please. When I participated in the debate, I was a warsie, and I wouldn't go this far.

 

 

 

You could call it a bluff once, but the fact that they talk about it twice convinces me. There is obviously, at least during KIRK'S TIME, a way for a Connie to perform a BDZ-lite type operation.

 

 

 

This, along with all of the other items, is part of what convinces me that Starfleet went through a major philosophical change sometime just after the TMP part of Generations.

 

 

 

You don't have to DBZ a planet to destroy all life. Planetary destruction in SW has always been overkill. The Feds do have the capability to destroy all life on a planet just by wiping out the atmosphere. It is within UFP's tech base but is just not done since by destroying a inhabited planet you'd pretty much collapse the Federation.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Oh, please. When I participated in the debate, I was a warsie, and I wouldn't go this far.

The debate has tainted me, Gigaton weapons claims with thousand ship fleets yet the dominion cant even depopulate cardassia, I've seen too much trekkie nonsense, like the near universal more advanced = more powerful brainbug, which judging by the average yield of a nuclear weapon in 1960 compared to now doesn't even hold true in real life.

 

 

 

You could call it a bluff once, but the fact that they talk about it twice convinces me. There is obviously, at least during KIRK'S TIME, a way for a Connie to perform a BDZ-lite type operation.

Thats the problem, the average trekkie blows it way out of proportion, and then pretends Starfleet operates the same way in the 24th century

 

 

 

This, along with all of the other items, is part of what convinces me that Starfleet went through a major philosophical change sometime just after the TMP part of Generations.

 

While I agree with you, the average trekkie seems to think this hasnt affected weapons development and other related field.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Oh, please. When I participated in the debate, I was a warsie, and I wouldn't go this far.

 

 

 

You could call it a bluff once, but the fact that they talk about it twice convinces me. There is obviously, at least during KIRK'S TIME, a way for a Connie to perform a BDZ-lite type operation.

 

 

 

This, along with all of the other items, is part of what convinces me that Starfleet went through a major philosophical change sometime just after the TMP part of Generations.

 

 

 

I agree on both counts. Especially that the UFP became more touchy-feely U.N.ish. That along with the fact that nobody batted an eyelash in TDiC when the subject of slagging a planet came up leads me to believe that this has always been a capability. However, exercising it would be politically akin to launching an ICBM in today's world. It would unleash a shitstorm that nobody would want to deal with.

[Praeothmin 532]

The debate has tainted me, Gigaton weapons claims with thousand ship fleets yet the dominion cant even depopulate cardassia,

 

 

 

And how could they?

 

They never got the chance to do it.

 

They started firing, but never had the chance to continue for the hours necessary for the entire planet to be reduced to cinder because the Cardassian fleet and the Fed-Klingon-Romulan fleet attacked them before they could continue.

 

800 million dead in a few minutes isn't that bad...

 

 

 

Also, all the examples you mention in SW have NO precise timetable on them, NO precise number of ships doind the deed, so we have no idea how powerful a ship needs to be to do such a deed.

 

 

 

I've seen too much trekkie nonsense, like the near universal more advanced = more powerful brainbug, which judging by the average yield of a nuclear weapon in 1960 compared to now doesn't even hold true in real life.

 

 

 

Funny, I've seen the same from many a Warsie when explaining that, since an ISD is newer then an Acclamator, then surely its weapons must be more powerful...

 

Why would it be so with the Empire, and not the Federation?

 

 

 

The main difference in this case?

 

We have a canon examples of two similar types of vessels ship needing less fire from modern vessels to get destroyed then from older vessels.

 

Example 1:

 

The unshielded Miranda-Class Reliant takes quite a beating from the E-A, and it actually takes many Phaser hits and a few torpedoes in order to destroy it, yet in the Dominion war, shielded and unshielded Mirandas were often destroyed in less then two shots...

 

 

 

In TUC, an unshielded B'Rel type BoP needs 7 torpedoes to get destroyed, and only 1 in Generations for the same effect...

 

 

 

Which brings me to the second nonsense I often see:

 

More pacifist necessarily means less powerful...

 

 

 

 

 

Thats the problem, the average trekkie blows it way out of proportion, and then pretends Starfleet operates the same way in the 24th century

 

 

 

 

And the same goes for Warsies.

 

They take the Clone Wars Republic/Empire, an Empire at War needing War machines, and compare it to the Emperor's Empire, an Empire ruling over a pacified territory, a territory that has been pacified for 20 years, with only a handful of rebel worlds giving it headaches, in over 1 million systems.

 

And from that comparison they assume the Empire's forces are more powerful...

 

And then Trekkies are the dumb and wanking ones...

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree with you, the average trekkie seems to think this hasnt affected weapons development and other related field.

 

 

 

Perhaps because we see no reason to believe it has.

 

You see, while the Federation approach may have become more pacifist, it's neighbor's may not, so while their ships may be designed as a more "relaxed" environment, it doesn't mean its weapons and shields are necessarily weaker, because the Federation still has warlike neighbors, still had wars (vs the Cardassians, for example), who will definitely not have taken the dearming path...

 

Add to that the fact that Technology has continued to improve drastically, the ships are faster, and we have no reason to believe the weapons are weaker...

[enigma 521]

The Empire ruling over pacified territories would not have needed to build a Death Star let alone 2.

 

 

 

Oh those pesky rebels!

[Praeothmin 532]

The Empire ruling over pacified territories would not have needed to build a Death Star let alone 2.

 

 

 

Oh those pesky rebels!

 

 

 

Need?

 

They Needed?

 

I thought the Empire had those Gazillion of ships at their disposal?

 

I thought they had so many ships they could bring millions of them to bear against the Federation in an all out fight?

 

I thought the Rebels were so insignificant that that is the reason the Emperor didn't see fit to send more then 30 ships against them in RotJ?

 

 

 

[enigma 521]

They used it as a terror weapon. Sending ships to attack rebel planet gives the rebels a chance to flee and set up base elsewhere. Whereas the DS shows up and blasts the planet away, inducing terror throughout the galaxy. The Rebels were big enough of a thorn that sending ships would not amount to much. Wielding a weapon that could destroy planets would have been enough (if the terror tactic actually worked). If I was in the Emperor's position, I would have built about 5 or 6 of them. Losing one would not hamper the Empire's planet busting ability.

 

 

 

The Empire has millions upon millions of warships but only 25,000 ISDs to patrol the galaxy.

[Tyralak 12,068]

yay enigma's back!

 

 

 

Yep. your favorite chew toy. Go get him, boy!

[Praeothmin 532]

They used it as a terror weapon. Sending ships to attack rebel planet gives the rebels a chance to flee and set up base elsewhere. Whereas the DS shows up and blasts the planet away, inducing terror throughout the galaxy. The Rebels were big enough of a thorn that sending ships would not amount to much. Wielding a weapon that could destroy planets would have been enough (if the terror tactic actually worked). If I was in the Emperor's position, I would have built about 5 or 6 of them. Losing one would not hamper the Empire's planet busting ability.

 

 

 

The Empire has millions upon millions of warships but only 25,000 ISDs to patrol the galaxy.

 

 

 

While they do only have 25 000 SDs, they still have many other types of cruisers, according to the EU:

 

Carrack-class, Nebulon-B cruisers, Dreadnaughts, and so on...

 

I'm sure the SDs were used to patrol only the most important systems, and the "older" or "weaker" ships to patrol the less important ones.

 

If they had had the necessary ships to eradicate the Rebels with, they would have used them.

 

Had the Emperor been more tactically aware, he would have built a lot more ISDs, which he could have kept as a Rebel hunting fleet.

 

 

 

The DS1 was intended to destroy the main Rebel base in ANH, and kill its leaders, and the Empire didn't even seem to consider them enough of a threat to have an ISD or two as cover to defend itself.

 

They were of the opinion that destroying the Rebels at Yavin would deal a major blow to the Rebels, showing that the Rebels were't militarily powerful, but that their ideals were.

 

We have proof of this in RotJ, where the entire Rebel Fleet is amassed at Endor, a fleet that barely has about 30 capital ships, and less then half a dozen Mon Cal Cruisers...

 

Are we to believe that a rag-tag fleet of 30 something ships is enough to militarily destabilize an Empire ruling over 1 million systems?

 

The Emperor wanted them destroyed, not because of their fleet strength, but because of the ideals they represented:

 

The end of the Empire, and the rebirth of the Republic...

 

 

 

They didn't need the DS, they wanted it to fight on the same level as the rebels:

 

In people's minds.

 

They didn't need a DS to destroy the Rebel's rag-tag fleet, they could have done that with twice Endor's fleet...

 

 

 

So again, the Empire was ruling over a militarily pacified Galaxy, and thus didn't need bigger, more powerful weapons...

 

We aren't using nukes to fight the terrorists in Iraq...

[Tyralak 12,068]

Oh, please. When I participated in the debate, I was a warsie, and I wouldn't go this far.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes but you were always reasonable. Unlike people like Wong and Dice.

[Jason 27]

UFP is more like UN peace keep force star terk TNG compare to UFP in Kick days. So be able knock out longer number people for lower number people kill in a fight make sense. So any UFP starship would have this able in a saucer of galaxy class starship on the on the ground so can be used military base or heavy arterially.

[Questor 501]

UFP is more like UN peace keep force star terk TNG compare to UFP in Kick days. So be able knock out longer number people for lower number people kill in a fight make sense. So any UFP starship would have this able in a saucer of galaxy class starship on the on the ground so can be used military base or heavy arterially.

 

 

 

What the fuck?

 

 

 

By your moronic analogy, there should be powder blue painted LHDs and BBs floating around. When does the next one make a port stop in San Diego?

 

 

 

[InvaderSkooj 1]

So any UFP starship would have this able in a saucer of galaxy class starship on the on the ground so can be used military base or heavy arterially.

No just target practice for an atomic rocket

[enigma 521]

No just target practice for an atomic rocket

 

 

 

Any space faring power that uses parts of their ships as firebases and forts deserve to be annihilated by rabid space monkey rapists.