UFP vrs Predator

[Jason 27]

Ok but we never seen anyone but people in Military Assault Command Operations or units like in Star Terk univerce using sniper rifles other deep space nine that except to the rule. Also that weapons design scan thought walls diffcult could be eaisly pick up sensors. Design a group like Military Assault Command Operations forces.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Ok but we never seen anyone but people in Military Assault Command Operations or units like in Star Terk univerce using sniper rifles other deep space nine that except to the rule. Also that weapons design scan thought walls diffcult could be eaisly pick up sensors. Design a group like Military Assault Command Operations forces.

 

 

 

You're breaking character again. That was almost intelligible.

[Questor 501]

You're breaking character again. That was almost intelligible.

 

 

 

It's still irrelevant to his point though. TNG is utopian in the extreme. the odds of TNG Starfleet - which does not even consider itself a military - maintaining anything as offensive oriented as a ground combat force is unlikely, much less a special forces group.

 

 

 

We're not talking about Kirk's era here.

[Jason 27]

Look person get hit here she does look she wearing a normal starfleet unform. Look like starfleet soldier to me.

 

 

 

[Questor 501]

Look person get hit here she does look she wearing a normal starfleet unform. Look like starfleet soldier to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because a different uniform AUTOMATICALLY means he must be a soldier.

 

 

 

Don't we see Sisko and company in those uniforms at some point?

[Jason 27]

No we never seen Caption SIsco or any other so call Star terk hero in this kind unformion. This image shows some normal uniforms and some combat uniforms.

 

 

 

[Jason 27]

Also the UFP preveal hold outpose againist the Cardasson Unions for weeks. Cardasson have both militry combat vechices and commandoe like units. The UFP had groups like Military Assault Command Operations in order have chance.

 

While Kathryn Janeway held the rank of lieutenant, she was the member of an away team defending a Federation outpost from Cardassians during the border conflict. The Cardassians fought for the outpost for weeks, and at one point ended up in a three day long firefight. My link

[Praeothmin 532]

This is one point I have to give to Jason, the Federation did seem to have soldier units in DS9, wearing specific types of uniforms.

 

One of these wounded soldiers had his uniform damaged in a way that allowed us too see that the uniform was a bit thicker, probably offering some added protection to impact and energy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But, since we never saw them in TNG, we can easily assume they were only created for the war, and weren't in existence before the DW...

 

[Questor 501]

This is one point I have to give to Jason, the Federation did seem to have soldier units in DS9, wearing specific types of uniforms.

 

One of these wounded soldiers had his uniform damaged in a way that allowed us too see that the uniform was a bit thicker, probably offering some added protection to impact and energy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, stay behind that sofa.

 

 

 

Just because they are wearing a different uniform, that doesn't mean anything. That uniform could be the equivalent of a utility uniform. Something that you wouldn't wear in the clean, controlled environment of a Starship, but would use when fighting on the ground.

 

 

 

If these are soldiers, why are they in a unified chain of command with the naval folks. If they are soldiers, why are they not using decent ground combat tactics. There is no evidence to support the idea that they are anything other than standard goldshirts in a new uniform. We didn't see them in Insurrection or Nemesis, where they would have been useful.

 

 

 

So please, why are you allowing him this point? Is it just to make me roll my eyes?

 

 

 

 

But, since we never saw them in TNG, we can easily assume they were only created for the war, and weren't in existence before the DW...

 

 

 

 

 

How about obeying parsimony and assuming that they are goldshirts?

[Jason 27]

Deep Space Nine

 

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/ds9/season7/ds9-725.txt

 

part 72A

 

 

 

Star Terk Deep space Nine beyound left behind.

 

 

 

ROSS

 

But a costly one. Estimates

 

project our casualty figures

 

could be as high as forty

 

percent.

 

 

 

 

 

DEEP SPACE NINE: "What You... " - REV. 04/26/99 - ACT SIX 72A.

 

 

 

136BB ANGLE ON ODO

 

 

 

only too aware that his people are responsible for

 

so many deaths.

 

 

 

ROSS

 

(continuing)

 

And God knows how much higher

 

they'll go once we send in our

 

ground forces.

 

 

 

See word ground forces. Military Assault Command Operations. Also the UFP attact figher

 

My link

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why put wings on these figthers if they not design fight in a place that has atmosphere.

 

Also the UFP use troop transports.

 

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_transport

[Jason 27]

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Andorian_Imperial_Guard

 

Also unlikely Andorian change militry culutre it seem unlikley over came this. Also evidence existed In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II" establishes Shran made Jonathan Archer an honorary member of the Guard three years after the Federation's founding seems to suggest the latter. Other evience how often do we see Andorian work UFP starships. Very rearly is the answer to that question.

[Praeothmin 532]

Yeah, stay behind that sofa.

 

 

 

Just because they are wearing a different uniform, that doesn't mean anything. That uniform could be the equivalent of a utility uniform. Something that you wouldn't wear in the clean, controlled environment of a Starship, but would use when fighting on the ground.

 

 

 

If these are soldiers, why are they in a unified chain of command with the naval folks. If they are soldiers, why are they not using decent ground combat tactics. There is no evidence to support the idea that they are anything other than standard goldshirts in a new uniform. We didn't see them in Insurrection or Nemesis, where they would have been useful.

 

 

 

So please, why are you allowing him this point? Is it just to make me roll my eyes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How about obeying parsimony and assuming that they are goldshirts?

 

 

 

How about I explain myself a bit better instead?

 

First, why should they be under a different chain of Command?

 

Unlike the USA, for example, the Federation has never shown us it had multiple "types" of forces: Air, land or sea.

 

It has one "type", which is Starfleet.

 

Starfleet does everything...

 

It explores, it mediates, it does covert operations using regular Starfleet personnel after giving them advanced training, etc...

 

Why would these "soldiers" need to be under a different chain of command when no one else is?

 

They most probably are standard goldshirts with a new utility uniform and ground combat training.

 

If these uniforms simply had been the kind of uniform a goldshirt wears when not on a starship, we would have seen Sisko and friends wear it when they beamed down to the battlefield...

 

But they didn't, they kept their standard PJs.

 

 

 

And yeah, their tactics are not the best, but at least they take cover.

 

Remember the Stormtroopers?

 

Some people say they are highly trained soldiers, in fact the best ones.

 

Yet time and again, we see them employ tactics even Jason... Hhmm, let me rephrase that... They employ tactics even a retard would know are bad.

 

Yet in their own universe, they are indeed feared and competent soldiers.

 

 

 

So, these goldshirts, while having recived better training then most goldshirts for ground combat, are still, OU, still not the most competent soldiers, while IU, they are some of the best.

 

 

 

Where would they have been useful in Insurrection and Nemesis?

 

All the real battles were in space, the only ground engagements we saw were between the So'Na and the Picard gang (Insurrrection) and the Remans and Starship security, on a ship (Nemesis)...

 

Again, these "soldiers" would have received advanced ground combat training, their starship defense training being more then adequate inside starships...

[Questor 501]

How about I explain myself a bit better instead?

 

First, why should they be under a different chain of Command?

 

Unlike the USA, for example, the Federation has never shown us it had multiple "types" of forces: Air, land or sea.

 

It has one "type", which is Starfleet.

 

Starfleet does everything...

 

It explores, it mediates, it does covert operations using regular Starfleet personnel after giving them advanced training, etc...

 

Why would these "soldiers" need to be under a different chain of command when no one else is?

 

They most probably are standard goldshirts with a new utility uniform and ground combat training.

 

If these uniforms simply had been the kind of uniform a goldshirt wears when not on a starship, we would have seen Sisko and friends wear it when they beamed down to the battlefield...

 

But they didn't, they kept their standard PJs.

 

 

 

A separate chain of command (at least to some degree) would be indicated based on the fact that ground combat tactics are so different from space combat (or say, running a sickbay) that it would imply a different training and promotion path. They could be under the command of senior officers, but I would expect them to have their own officers.

 

 

 

 

And yeah, their tactics are not the best, but at least they take cover.

 

Remember the Stormtroopers?

 

Some people say they are highly trained soldiers, in fact the best ones.

 

Yet time and again, we see them employ tactics even Jason... Hhmm, let me rephrase that... They employ tactics even a retard would know are bad.

 

Yet in their own universe, they are indeed feared and competent soldiers.

 

 

 

So, these goldshirts, while having recived better training then most goldshirts for ground combat, are still, OU, still not the most competent soldiers, while IU, they are some of the best.

 

 

 

The problem is that they have regressed. If they were ground troops, I would expect them to have the institutional memory of the ground troops we saw in Enterprise. They don't.

 

 

 

Where would they have been useful in Insurrection and Nemesis?

 

All the real battles were in space, the only ground engagements we saw were between the So'Na and the Picard gang (Insurrrection) and the Remans and Starship security, on a ship (Nemesis)...

 

Again, these "soldiers" would have received advanced ground combat training, their starship defense training being more then adequate inside starships...

 

 

 

 

Security for the research outpost in Insurrection and the dune buggy ride in Nemesis to start with. And I would expect ground combat troops to be given a certain amount of boarding/counter-boarding training in a universe with transporters.

 

 

 

Unless we are postulating that these are a "wartime only" thing, which still doesn't excuse everything. If they are wartime only, then they can be expected to be as shitty as any force with no institutional memory is and that would explain a lot. So your choices are: Goldshirt or Cannon Fodder.

[Jason 27]

If wish to see evidence that UFP does navy watch this vidoe from from 4 minute 45 secounds to about 55 secound listion to the part Tom talk about Federation Navy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_56JVbw1HQ

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we talk about The Siege of AR-558 we do not known what equement when first landed. We only get seem 5 months into battle with no new miltiery supplies.We have now idea start with or what other militry equement might have had need some one that kill in 5 months.

 

 

 

SISKO

 

Where's Captain Loomis?

 

 

 

LARKIN

 

He was killed ten days ago. So

 

was Commander Parker.

 

 

 

 

 

LARKIN

 

He was killed ten days ago. So

 

was Commander Parker.

 

 

 

I never heard of gold shirt caption before other then then Andorian Imperial Guard.

[Tyralak 12,068]

So, Questor; Are you saying the Federation doesn't have any soldiers whatsoever? It would seem more than a bit unusual for a government to not have any sort of soldiers/marines/special forces, etc.

[Questor 501]

So, Questor; Are you saying the Federation doesn't have any soldiers whatsoever? It would seem more than a bit unusual for a government to not have any sort of soldiers/marines/special forces, etc.

 

 

 

I suspect that the federation member worlds have soldiers, and the federation may even have a national guard type system. I suspect that there is no standing army or marine corps, though. So I guess I'm saying that I doubt any forces they have would be worth any more than a feudal levee.

 

 

 

Who knows about special forces, hippies have a strange relationship with them. I could definitely see the rapid development of them during the dominion war. I suspect that individual ships that are not run by pompous assholes would also end up with de facto ground forces or special forces. I really have no idea about a Starfleet level organization though.

 

 

 

Also, as much as Jason wanks about them, MACO was not associated with Starfleet in Enterprise. It says so in the very first fucking sentance of the article on MACO in Memory Alpha, so I would like to once again call Jason on his lying about sources.

[enigma 521]

So, Questor; Are you saying the Federation doesn't have any soldiers whatsoever? It would seem more than a bit unusual for a government to not have any sort of soldiers/marines/special forces, etc.

 

 

 

Like the Old Republic before the war?

[Khas 12,158]

I never heard of gold shirt caption before other then then Andorian Imperial Guard.

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure he was just a starship captain who happened to be leading the assault.

[Praeothmin 532]

A separate chain of command (at least to some degree) would be indicated based on the fact that ground combat tactics are so different from space combat (or say, running a sickbay) that it would imply a different training and promotion path. They could be under the command of senior officers, but I would expect them to have their own officers.

 

 

 

Well, they did have officers with them on the ground, but as *gasp* Jason showed us (for once being useful ), they were KIA.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is that they have regressed. If they were ground troops, I would expect them to have the institutional memory of the ground troops we saw in Enterprise. They don't.

 

 

 

Ah, but you see, between ENT and DS9, there were 200 years of relative peace, with no trace of dedicated ground forces (TOS and TNG).

 

Which to me, seems to indicate that they were created only for the War...

 

 

 

 

 

Security for the research outpost in Insurrection and the dune buggy ride in Nemesis to start with. And I would expect ground combat troops to be given a certain amount of boarding/counter-boarding training in a universe with transporters.

 

 

 

Why would they need soldiers to secure an outpost where they weren't expecting combat?

 

In the case of Nemesis, again, they weren'T expecting combat, nonetheless, Picard still took an armed vehicule and his two best shooters with him, just in case.

 

Worf and Data have demonstrated more then once that they are quite efficient fighters, and those two together are effective bodyguards...

 

 

 

Unless we are postulating that these are a "wartime only" thing, which still doesn't excuse everything. If they are wartime only, then they can be expected to be as shitty as any force with no institutional memory is and that would explain a lot. So your choices are: Goldshirt or Cannon Fodder.

 

 

 

I do believe they are a "Wartime Only" type of force, else we would have seen or heard of them before in either TNG or DS9...

 

Remember that in TNG, the Federation was supposed to be this "Space-Hippie" type of society, so any true military forces could have been mothballed up until they had the Dominion War, which taxed their capabilities far more then the Cardassian "brush-war" they previously fought...

[Praeothmin 532]

Like the Old Republic before the war?

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

The Federation made it quite clear on many occasions that Starfleet polices the space lanes, but that each member has its own police (or security) force, just like the Old Republic did.

 

They did not need a dedicated army until the Trade Federation and the Separatists arrived, just like the Federation did not need ground soldiers before the DW...

 

Why have ground soldiers when most planets already have dedicated forces to defend their home soil?

 

And for those who didn't (like colonies), the Goldshirts were more then sufficient, as shown time and again in the series...

[Jason 27]

Not true Kick day UFP had some from ground forces. We know Vuclan still have militry of some kinds.

 

Even after becoming a Federation member, Vulcan still maintained its own fleet of ships. In 2367, the High Command dispatched defense vessels to intercept the Romulan invasion fleet of Vulcan. (TNG: "Unification II")

 

 

 

My link

 

 

 

We also known the Vuclan still mantain a ground forces of some kind (Subaltern Lorot of the Vulcan High Command was assimilated by the Borg)My link

 

It is also possible he was a member of the MACO before join Vuclan high command.

[Jason 27]

(Subaltern Lorot of the Vulcan High Command was assimilated by the Borg) This strong evidence that he was in fact part of MACO and was also part of Vuclan high command dule commision. My link

 

First Romulan planed on invade Vuclan with 30,000 troops this not work if Vuclan had real militry force of any kind. Also we saw no evidence any Vuclan starship in fleet try attact that borg cube.

 

[

[Tyralak 12,068]

Look, Jason. While I'm sure there were some UFP ground forces, it seems clear that Starfleet is essentially a space navy. As has been already stated, it's most likely that individual armies are kept by their respective member worlds. This would actually make more sense with the kind of political and organizational structure the Federation has.

[Questor 501]

Amazingly, Jason is right. There is actually a limited amount of evidence for the existence of some kind of Marine/Ground Combat arm during Kirk's time: Colonel West, combined with the special Security guys we saw occasionally in the movies. The blue uniforms that we saw only in the jail/brig would probably be some kind of cop, but there is no reason to discount the idea that maybe the armored guys we saw were some kind of marines. Note, the fact that they had a different uniform is not enough, nor is it sufficient when you combine with Colonel West's rank, but the two together are suggestive, and given the generally higher militarism of the TMP era, are believable - to an extent.

 

 

 

As stated above, this has nothing to do with ENT, as MACOs were part of the Earth Militaries and not Starfleet, and are therefor inadmissible as evidence that Starfleet has ground forces.

[Jason 27]

The Vuclan seem train commandoes at Vulcan Institute for Defensive Arts. Tuvok was once a professor of archery science at the Institute for several years. This experience came in handy when he, along with the crew of the USS Voyager, was stranded on Hanon IV by the Kazon. (VOY: "Basics, Part II")

 

My link

 

So UFP commandoes beam down surface with personal force fields and other elite equement Predtor try to attact his plamas weapons. It has no effect He then try attact them close range. They UFP commandoes kill him with thier hand phasers.