Galaxy class starship main defector dish as a weapon

[Questor 501]

Does the site have a translator or something? Because this Jason makes very little sense.

 

 

 

Since I don't really now what he is even saying I'll just comment on the high-end firepower for this event:

 

 

 

If we go with Date's clear incorrect 12.75 Gigawatts per second, that would be 3GT/s, so for 33 seconds the power of the beam at high end would be 99 GT.

 

 

 

So as a high end (unless I messed up here) we know a Borg Cube can take at least 99 GT to the shields. Of course given what we know of ST AM 3GT/s is silly and would use up all the fuel on the ship in less then two months.

 

 

 

I think you did the math wrong. 12.75 gigawatts per second equates to 12.75 gigajoules, which is FAR lower than 3 GT/s. 12.75 Gigajoules is 3.04 tons/sec.

 

 

 

How did you get Gigatons?

[paul 11,988]

I think you did the math wrong. 12.75 gigawatts per second equates to 12.75 gigajoules, which is FAR lower than 3 GT/s. 12.75 Gigajoules is 3.04 tons/sec.

 

 

 

How did you get Gigatons?

 

 

 

I'm assuming he used the "I'm right" math.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

The line was 12.75billion GW per............. , then Data gets stops talking because something explodes.

 

 

 

Which the average rabid trekkie interprets as 12.75GW per second, rather than something that makes more sense, like hour, 192kgs of fuel, etc.

 

 

 

Which is where the mythical 3GT/s comes from, and its even sillier because the ship was cruising at impulse at the time, which led to me calcing at that rate if the Ent-D was filled with M/AM it'd need to refuel every 57 days or so, while at idle. God forbid they have to go to warp or carry stuff like people

[Ado Mortumee 500]

I think you did the math wrong. 12.75 gigawatts per second equates to 12.75 gigajoules, which is FAR lower than 3 GT/s. 12.75 Gigajoules is 3.04 tons/sec.

 

 

 

How did you get Gigatons?

 

 

 

Sorry there, I meant 12.75 billion Gigawatts. Yet another reason for me to remember not to post late at night.

[Questor 501]

Sorry there, I meant 12.75 billion Gigawatts. Yet another reason for me to remember not to post late at night.

 

 

 

Well that's the discrepancy right there.

 

 

 

Don't worry about it. It happens to everyone.

 

 

 

The other problem I have with the statement is that it occurs right before an overload, so we have no way of knowing if that output is actually a sustainable output. As was pointed out, it does seem like there would not be fuel.

[Tyralak 12,068]

I don't know how big a "bag" it would take.

 

 

 

Depends on how much crack the 'bag' was filled with.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Well that's the discrepancy right there.

 

 

 

Don't worry about it. It happens to everyone.

 

 

 

The other problem I have with the statement is that it occurs right before an overload, so we have no way of knowing if that output is actually a sustainable output. As was pointed out, it does seem like there would not be fuel.

 

Do we know exactly how much fuel that would take or are we guessing?

[Questor 501]

Do we know exactly how much fuel that would take or are we guessing?

 

 

 

I was taking his word for it. Somebody else brought it up earlier in the thread.

[Jason 27]

Watch the part on this video when USS Enterprise D fire the main defector dish on Best of both worlds part 2. It makes some spark on the Borg cube a spark about the size of the hole on the Borg cube that we saw in Star Trek first contact.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okpxRhzPXHA&feature=related

[Praeothmin 532]

The line was 12.75billion GW per............. , then Data gets stops talking because something explodes.

 

 

 

Which the average rabid trekkie interprets as 12.75GW per second, rather than something that makes more sense, like hour, 192kgs of fuel, etc.

 

 

 

I see no reason to assume "GW per hour" is more logical then, for example, "GW per kg of reactant", or whatever.

 

Since a W is already a unit of something "per second", the the simplest explanation is that the E-D was indeed generating 12.75 Billion GW at that time, every second.

 

We have many times where normal M/AM reactions could not account with what was seen onscreen, so there has to be something more to the power generating capabilities of the ship which could explain this high power generation.

 

We have TOS's "super AM" which needs only an ounce to rip off half of a planet's atmosphere, so why couldn't TNG's AM be the same?

 

 

 

Which is where the mythical 3GT/s comes from, and its even sillier because the ship was cruising at impulse at the time, which led to me calcing at that rate if the Ent-D was filled with M/AM it'd need to refuel every 57 days or so, while at idle. God forbid they have to go to warp or carry stuff like people

 

 

 

Why would it be silly simply because the ship was at impulse?

 

Again, your starting from the desired conclusion, and molding the facts or inferrences to fit that conclusion...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I see no reason to assume "GW per hour" is more logical then, for example, "GW per kg of reactant", or whatever.

 

Since a W is already a unit of something "per second", the the simplest explanation is that the E-D was indeed generating 12.75 Billion GW at that time, every second.

 

We have many times where normal M/AM reactions could not account with what was seen onscreen, so there has to be something more to the power generating capabilities of the ship which could explain this high power generation.

 

We have TOS's "super AM" which needs only an ounce to rip off half of a planet's atmosphere, so why couldn't TNG's AM be the same?

oh no another mith , if he meant in a second the "per" is redundant, as it is part of a watt.

 

 

 

Many times my ass. Obsession is a poor example, no fireball, no atmosphere visibly being thrown into space

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would it be silly simply because the ship was at impulse?

 

Again, your starting from the desired conclusion, and molding the facts or inferrences to fit that conclusion...

 

And just what would require 3Gt/s while cruising slowly at impulse, It sure wasnt the water heaters and A/C

[Praeothmin 532]

oh no another mith , if he meant in a second the "per" is redundant, as it is part of a watt.

 

 

 

Many times my ass. Obsession is a poor example, no fireball, no atmosphere visibly being thrown into space

 

 

 

I don't remember seeing the explosion, but in the remastered episodes, we do see a crater left by the explosion:

 

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/File:Tycho_IV_crater.jpg

 

The size of the crater indicates an explosion far powerful then what the "ounce" of antimatter could do.

 

That means there was another effect at work, probably enhancing the M/AM effects, and most likely used in Starships power generation...

 

 

 

 

 

And just what would require 3Gt/s while cruising slowly at impulse, It sure wasnt the water heaters and A/C

 

 

 

You know that impulse travel still propels the ship a fractions of c, right?

 

Say they were at half impulse (full being 0.25c), then they were travelling at 0.125c.

 

The E-D masses 4.6 million metric tons, or 4.6 billion kg.

 

If E=mc², then the energy required to accelerate the ship to 0.125c is 1.23515e+10 Megatons.

 

ST uses mass lightening, but we do not know how much the mass is lightened, so lets say when at impulse the ship only has 10% standard mass.

 

So it becomes 460 million kg, and 1.23515e+9 Megatons.

 

If they're going at only 1% of c, meaning 12 times less, then it's still 1e+8 Megatons...

 

At impulse...

 

So, yeah, the energy required to perform what we see them perform is much greater then what M/AM can deliver according to our modern knowledge...

 

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I don't remember seeing the explosion, but in the remastered episodes, we do see a crater left by the explosion:

 

http://memory-alpha....o_IV_crater.jpg

 

The size of the crater indicates an explosion far powerful then what the "ounce" of antimatter could do.

 

That means there was another effect at work, probably enhancing the M/AM effects, and most likely used in Starships power generation...

Never saw the entire planet, its entirely possible the crater, which is only visible in the remastered version(FUCK YOU GENE) was caused by an previous asteroid impact etc.

 

 

 

In contrast as shown above a mere 6 teraton explosion is still visible several minutes later, whereas your pic is immediately after kirk beamed out and the Ent broke orbit, Meanwhile in real life a 38 petaton explosion's fireball would last for 3 days, creating notable atmospheric ejecta(the half of 5e18kg worth of atmosphere an earthlike planet would have)

 

 

 

 

 

You know that impulse travel still propels the ship a fractions of c, right?

 

Say they were at half impulse (full being 0.25c), then they were travelling at 0.125c.

 

The E-D masses 4.6 million metric tons, or 4.6 billion kg.

 

If E=mc², then the energy required to accelerate the ship to 0.125c is 1.23515e+10 Megatons.

 

ST uses mass lightening, but we do not know how much the mass is lightened, so lets say when at impulse the ship only has 10% standard mass.

 

So it becomes 460 million kg, and 1.23515e+9 Megatons.

 

If they're going at only 1% of c, meaning 12 times less, then it's still 1e+8 Megatons...

 

At impulse...

 

So, yeah, the energy required to perform what we see them perform is much greater then what M/AM can deliver according to our modern knowledge...

 

 

Yet we know they use primitive fusion power for impulse, and they can use mass lightening while not at warp

[Praeothmin 532]

Never saw the entire planet, its entirely possible the crater, which is only visible in the remastered version(FUCK YOU GENE) was caused by an previous asteroid impact etc.

 

 

 

In contrast as shown above a mere 6 teraton explosion is still visible several minutes later, whereas your pic is immediately after kirk beamed out and the Ent broke orbit, Meanwhile in real life a 38 petaton explosion's fireball would last for 3 days, creating notable atmospheric ejecta(the half of 5e18kg worth of atmosphere an earthlike planet would have)

 

 

 

Actually, we saw a lot of the planet before the explosion, 4 times to be precise, while the E-Nil was circling it, and we saw no indication of any asteroid impact prior to the explosion.

 

Also, this crater is seen ay least two full minutes after the explosion (counted on my DVD player), as it took a full minute for Kirk to rematerialize, and another minute to talk with the redshirt.

 

In fact, we do not even know how much time elapsed between the transporter room scene and the departure of the E-Nil.

 

As for Fireball duration, it ranges from only about 0.4 s for a 1 kT airburst to more than 20 s for a 10 MT explosion.

 

Since we spent at least 2 full minutes before we even saw the crater of the explosion, it was decidedly much more powerful then 10MT.

 

 

 

I also see no logical reason to believe that they decided to show us an Asteroid impact on the planet (an crater already existing) right after the explosion which was supposed to have "ripped off half the atmosphere" from the planet, a crater which wasn't even hinted at before in the episode.

 

 

 

Of course, we do have some questions that remain:

 

Did they truly use "one ounce" as originally intended?

 

Was the planet Earth-like, with the same atmospheric density?

 

 

 

 

 

Yet we know they use primitive fusion power for impulse, and they can use mass lightening while not at warp

 

 

 

Which tells us that even their fusion generators are capable of great power generation, because we know Impulse speed uses fractions of c.

 

We know that even lightening the mass of the ship to 1% of it's total mass, we still have power requirements that defy our understanding of science, and we know they do it, so there's something in their power generation that amplifies it, even if we don't know what it is...

 

And by the way, how much power would that mass lightening require to perform?

 

How is it done?

 

The main isue comes back up:

 

The necessary power requirements to do all they do according to modern science is staggering, and you cannot disprove it.

 

So the 12.75 Billion GW is valid, no matter what you wish...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

snip

This is another case of trying to get your cake and eat it too. For obsession to be true ST m/am reactions become non DET, silly things like 3Gt/s sustained power output at idle, doesnt jive with catastrophic warp core breaches near planets since 5140kg would destroy the planet(gravel). Photon torpedes no longer can contain antimatter since 1 nanogram would mean a megaton explosion. Relativistic travel by reaction drive impossible without massive fuel fractions clearly not carried by ST ships(since they dont blow up planets when they explode). That and simple occam's razor favors my interpretation as i dont have to rationalize all the lower showings (which is almost all of them)

[Tyralak 12,068]

What evidence do we have of mass lightening? Was there something mentioned in the canon or is it an assumption?

[enigma 521]

What evidence do we have of mass lightening? Was there something mentioned in the canon or is it an assumption?

 

 

 

I think it is canon plus Tech manual mentions mass lightening. Remember that episode in which the E-D had to move a stellar fragment from hitting a planet? They surrounded that fragment with subspace field before moving it. In effect, they lowered it's mass so the E-D can move it.

[Praeothmin 532]

I think it is canon plus Tech manual mentions mass lightening. Remember that episode in which the E-D had to move a stellar fragment from hitting a planet? They surrounded that fragment with subspace field before moving it. In effect, they lowered it's mass so the E-D can move it.

 

 

 

Yeah but they can only create subspace fields using the Warp Drive, so a ship without it's Warp Core or Drive will have it's full mass, and thus require a shitload of energy to move...

[Praeothmin 532]

This is another case of trying to get your cake and eat it too. For obsession to be true ST m/am reactions become non DET, silly things like 3Gt/s sustained power output at idle, doesnt jive with catastrophic warp core breaches near planets since 5140kg would destroy the planet(gravel). Photon torpedes no longer can contain antimatter since 1 nanogram would mean a megaton explosion. Relativistic travel by reaction drive impossible without massive fuel fractions clearly not carried by ST ships(since they dont blow up planets when they explode). That and simple occam's razor favors my interpretation as i dont have to rationalize all the lower showings (which is almost all of them)

 

 

 

Actually, nowhere does Occam's razor mention that you must ignore stated facts when creating your explanations and looking for the simplest one.

 

Occam's Razor:

 

When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes." In science, Occam’s razor is used as a heuristic (rule of thumb) to guide scientists in the development of theoretical models rather than as an arbiter between published models. In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.

 

 

 

See, it doesn't mention ignoring stated facts, which your explanation does, and mine doesn't.

 

Your explanation ignores the fact that, again, we see ships in ST do things that would be impossible using simple M/AM reactions.

 

They do it, it's fact.

 

We also know that they do, indeed, use M/AM reactions at the basis of their power generation.

 

They do it, it's also a fact.

 

Using these two facts together (they exist and we can't ignore them), and using Occam's Razor means we must assume that they use some method of improving their power generation, an active "booster", which doesn't work in Core breaches, and which they may or may not use in Photorps.

 

What it is is a mystery, but it exists.

 

 

 

 

 

simple occam's razor favors my interpretation as i dont have to rationalize all the lower showings (which is almost all of them)

 

 

 

And I find it hilarious how Occam's Razor is so important to you when debating againts ST, but is suddenly absent of your explanations when explaining how none of the visuals in SW match the ICS levels...

 

 

 

 

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Yeah but they can only create subspace fields using the Warp Drive, so a ship without it's Warp Core or Drive will have it's full mass, and thus require a shitload of energy to move...

DS9 did it in the first episode, DS9 doesnt even have a warp core or impulse engines......fail

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Actually, nowhere does Occam's razor mention that you must ignore stated facts when creating your explanations and looking for the simplest one.

 

Occam's Razor:

 

 

 

 

 

See, it doesn't mention ignoring stated facts, which your explanation does, and mine doesn't

 

Your explanation ignores the fact that, again, we see ships in ST do things that would be impossible using simple M/AM reactions.

Yet your interpretation requires more rationalization when applied to the rest of canon. Mine does not. Your entire argument crumbles without the remastered episode, mine does not.

 

 

 

 

 

They do it, it's fact.

 

We also know that they do, indeed, use M/AM reactions at the basis of their power generation.

 

They do it, it's also a fact.

 

Using these two facts together (they exist and we can't ignore them), and using Occam's Razor means we must assume that they use some method of improving their power generation, an active "booster", which doesn't work in Core breaches, and which they may or may not use in Photorps.

 

What it is is a mystery, but it exists.

There's occam's razor biting you in the ass again

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I find it hilarious how Occam's Razor is so important to you when debating againts ST, but is suddenly absent of your explanations when explaining how none of the visuals in SW match the ICS levels...

 

 

 

 

 

concession accepted.

[Questor 501]

I see no reason to assume "GW per hour" is more logical then, for example, "GW per kg of reactant", or whatever.

 

Since a W is already a unit of something "per second", the the simplest explanation is that the E-D was indeed generating 12.75 Billion GW at that time, every second.

 

We have many times where normal M/AM reactions could not account with what was seen onscreen, so there has to be something more to the power generating capabilities of the ship which could explain this high power generation.

 

We have TOS's "super AM" which needs only an ounce to rip off half of a planet's atmosphere, so why couldn't TNG's AM be the same?

 

 

 

I'm going to fall back on conventional usage. GW per Hour makes sense because it is similar to what is on the writer's electric bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would it be silly simply because the ship was at impulse?

 

Again, your starting from the desired conclusion, and molding the facts or inferrences to fit that conclusion...

 

 

 

 

I've gone round and round on this. I don't think, when combined with other quotes. (Especially the Terawatt one) that we can assume that this is the power usage at impulse. The reactor is in the middle of overloading, and because of the nature of a matter-antimatter reaction an overload would generate more power.

 

 

 

Also, I don't know if its this thread, but somebody brought up moving the ship. I've addressed the acceleration voyager has according to dialog.

[Praeothmin 532]

DS9 did it in the first episode, DS9 doesnt even have a warp core or impulse engines......fail

 

 

 

They did it by making special modifications to the deflector shields, thus not their SOP, and certainly not the SOP of a ship without Warp Power (or O'Brian's modifications would not have been so special, and not worth mentioning).

 

The failure is yours...

 

And by the way, I did not say a ship at Impulse did not use it's Warp Core to create mass lightening, I simply said in the case where a ship doesn't have that Warp Core activated has to move it's entire mass...

 

 

 

 

 

Yet your interpretation requires more rationalization when applied to the rest of canon. Mine does not. Your entire argument crumbles without the remastered episode, mine does not.

 

 

 

 

How so?

 

I agree the "Obsession" example is most definitely an outlier, but it does not, in any way, invalidate the fact that vessels moving at impulse speeds, even with mass lightening, need immense amount of power to accelerate, which we see done, oh, I'd say almost every episode...

 

It does not invalidate that that amount of power using sorely M/AM reactions would require a reactant mass in manny cases equivalent to the ships themselves...

 

So my example does not fly in the face of Canon at all, and I still do not ignore stated (i.e. Canon) facts, while yours still does.

 

So my argument still has full validity, while yours doesn't, no matter how you try to spin it...

 

 

 

 

 

There's occam's razor biting you in the ass again

 

 

 

Your personal version of it, maybe, but not the real one.

 

And I'll stick with that one, thank you very much...

 

 

 

 

 

concession accepted.

 

 

 

I conceeded?

 

I don't remember where or when, but I do still remember you still ignore facts, while I do not...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm going to fall back on conventional usage. GW per Hour makes sense because it is similar to what is on the writer's electric bill.

 

 

 

But GW/h still flies in the face of sublight acceleration (in c fractions) for immensily massive ships...

 

That's why I have a problem accepting it.

 

If it had been fully stated as such, then, contrary to InvaderSkooj, I wouldn't ignore it, I would accept it as stated...

 

 

 

 

 

I've gone round and round on this. I don't think, when combined with other quotes. (Especially the Terawatt one) that we can assume that this is the power usage at impulse. The reactor is in the middle of overloading, and because of the nature of a matter-antimatter reaction an overload would generate more power.

 

 

 

Actually, the engine started to overload after Data mentioned the power generation, and I very much doubt he would have stated such a level of power without being alarmed if it wasn't the standard power generation the ship could achieve at Impulse.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I don't know if its this thread, but somebody brought up moving the ship. I've addressed the acceleration voyager has according to dialog.

 

 

 

That was me.

 

I didn't see those calcs, are they on the site?

 

Anyways, I base my (very loose) estimates on all the times the ship was in standard orbit, or at full stop, and it was ordered at 1/2 Impulse, or 1/4 Impulse, and then you'd see it accelerate suddenly to get up to those speeds.

[Questor 501]

But GW/h still flies in the face of sublight acceleration (in c fractions) for immensily massive ships...

 

That's why I have a problem accepting it.

 

If it had been fully stated as such, then, contrary to InvaderSkooj, I wouldn't ignore it, I would accept it as stated...

 

 

 

My only argument on that score is that Watt-hour is a unit of measure. If he had wanted to say Watt-second, he should have said Joules straight up. See below for the argument for mass-lightening.

 

 

 

Also, 12.75 EWh = 3.54 TJ. Which is the same order as the Terawatt comment, at least if you assume Geordi messed up his units.

 

 

 

Actually, the engine started to overload after Data mentioned the power generation, and I very much doubt he would have stated such a level of power without being alarmed if it wasn't the standard power generation the ship could achieve at Impulse.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is it does not match what is said in other episodes if you assume he meant joules - as I said, it does come close if you use watt-hours. I use the less than normal situation to provide a rational reason to select one measurement over the other.

 

 

 

 

 

That was me.

 

I didn't see those calcs, are they on the site?

 

Anyways, I base my (very loose) estimates on all the times the ship was in standard orbit, or at full stop, and it was ordered at 1/2 Impulse, or 1/4 Impulse, and then you'd see it accelerate suddenly to get up to those speeds.

 

 

 

 

They're much earlier in thread. Jason tried to use the quote from VOY: Drone to prove that the reactors were powerful.

 

 

 

In that episode, it is stated that the Voyager puts out 4,000 terradynes per second, which gives it FTL. A dyne is the measure of force required to accelerate one gram one cm/s^2. Given Voyager's stated mass of 700,000,000 Kg, this is equal to 5.714 m/s^3. so that means it accellerates 5.714 m/s^3. Assuming that they mean m/s^2, than you see why either significant mass-lightening needs to be taking place, or velocity levels need to be greatly reduced and we need to start looking at the superimposed dimensions theory for warp. (I've always liked that one better anyway, but canon shits on it.)

[InvaderSkooj 1]

They did it by making special modifications to the deflector shields, thus not their SOP, and certainly not the SOP of a ship without Warp Power (or O'Brian's modifications would not have been so special, and not worth mentioning).

 

The failure is yours...

 

And by the way, I did not say a ship at Impulse did not use it's Warp Core to create mass lightening, I simply said in the case where a ship doesn't have that Warp Core activated has to move it's entire mass...

Not really just shows how easy it is to achieve mass lightening, ie potentially anything with shields

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How so?

 

I agree the "Obsession" example is most definitely an outlier, but it does not, in any way, invalidate the fact that vessels moving at impulse speeds, even with mass lightening, need immense amount of power to accelerate, which we see done, oh, I'd say almost every episode...

 

It does not invalidate that that amount of power using sorely M/AM reactions would require a reactant mass in manny cases equivalent to the ships themselves...

 

So my example does not fly in the face of Canon at all, and I still do not ignore stated (i.e. Canon) facts, while yours still does.

 

So my argument still has full validity, while yours doesn't, no matter how you try to spin it...

concession accepted

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your personal version of it, maybe, but not the real one.

 

And I'll stick with that one, thank you very much...

Funny how Questor sees it my way, isnt it

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't remember where or when, but I do still remember you still ignore facts, while I do not...

look in a mirror much, and just what supposed facts have I ignored