Tyralak 12,068 Posted October 26, 2009 Given the fact that the Gospel according to Saxton is being essentially retconned out of relevancy, especially by the Clone Wars series, I'd like to hear from some of you who still hold true to your faith in the face of all reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted October 27, 2009 Given the fact that the Gospel according to Saxton is being essentially retconned out of relevancy, especially by the Clone Wars series, I'd like to hear from some of you who still hold true to your faith in the face of all reason. Having not watched the Clone Wars series, which parts of ICS were retconned? The only retconning that I remember hearing about were some of the MandoWank[TM Karen Traviss]. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted October 27, 2009 Well, I have always had a hard time taking children's shows seriously, especially for the debate, so I would say that it hasn't really debunked anything. Though, I should add that I also think the ICS is a piece of trash. I guess this post has been pretty pointless...Meh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 27, 2009 Well, given how it is a cartoon, the firepower figures look more like something out of GI Joe. And in case my impression of GI Joe is off...in other words, capital-grade weaponry has trouble making dents in dirt. In that case, that overridden by the movies in which the ISD's were blasting away large asteroids. Maybe those weapons in that particular CW episode were dialed down? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 28, 2009 Well it is a prequel series. Nevertheless, movies trumps the CW series and even the prequel movies shows heavier firepower than CW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted October 28, 2009 Nevertheless, movies trumps the CW series and even the prequel movies shows heavier firepower than CW. Nowhere have the movies shown the kind of firepower the ICS claims. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 28, 2009 Nowhere have the movies shown the kind of firepower the ICS claims. Never read it, nevertheless as I already mentioned, movies trumps all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted October 28, 2009 Never read it, nevertheless as I already mentioned, movies trumps all. I agree, movies trump all, however, as Tyralak also stated, nowhere in any movie do we see Firepower even approaching ICS levels... the movies in which the ISD's were blasting away large asteroids. If by large you mean less then 20 meters wide, then yes, they were blasting large asteroids... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted October 28, 2009 Your movie trumps all comment is a little borked. Considering CW is done by lucasarts that would then mean it's canon ^^ However yeah like *shudders* raycav said, it was a prequel so the firepower isn't going to be at par with the later ones (unless they got drunk in military defense and just never upgraded ^^) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paul 11,988 Posted October 28, 2009 Now what's *that* supposed to mean, hmmm? Also, what's the canon status of the Clone Wars movie? I THINK it's considered canon but I'm not 100% sure and i really don't want to look it up (since i'm not really into debating star wars crap anyways *whistles*) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 29, 2009 Your movie trumps all comment is a little borked. Considering CW is done by lucasarts that would then mean it's canon ^^ However yeah like *shudders* raycav said, it was a prequel so the firepower isn't going to be at par with the later ones (unless they got drunk in military defense and just never upgraded ^^) It doesn't matter. There is levels of canonicity laid out by Lucasfilm (I think). Above everything else are the movies, both the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy. Here's the link and quote explaining the canon levels. Wookiepedia In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity-tracking database referred to as the Holocron continuity database. The Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years, but the capabilities of database software allow for each element of a story, rather than the stories themselves, to be classified on their own merits. The Holocron's database includes an area for a single-letter (G, T, C, S or N) representing the level of canonicity of that element; these letters have since informally been applied to the levels of canon themselves: G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon and N-canon. As part of his work with the Holocron, Chee was responsible for the creation of this classification, and he spent the early stages developing and refining them into what they are today. G, T, C and S together form the overall Star Wars continuity. Each ascending level typically overrides the lower ones; for example, Boba Fett's back story was radically altered with the release of Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, forcing the retcon of older source material to fall in line with the new G-canon back story. However, this is not always absolute, and the resolution of all contradictions are handled on a case-by-case basis. G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).[1] T-canon[2], or Television Canon[3], refers to the canon level comprising the feature film Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the two television shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series.[4][5] It was devised recently in order to define a status above the C-Level canon, as confirmed by Chee[6]. C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports. S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon. N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon. Leland Chee continues to answer questions about the Holocron in the Holocron continuity database questions thread at the starwars.com forums. On August 4, 2004, when asked if the G and C-levels formed separate and independent canon, Leland Chee responded by stating that both were part of a single canon: "There is one overall continuity." In a December 7, 2005 post, Chee commented on how the Holocron is applied to licensees: "The Holocron comes into play for anything official being developed for books, games, websites, and merchandise. For anything beyond that, it is simply a reference tool." In a December 6, 2006 post, Chee contradicted his original statements regarding the canonicity of the Holocron and how it applied to the Star Wars universe: "The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving." On a post made on the same day, Mr. Chee stated that: "Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity." This statement confirms the priority of the "current version of the films" over the original versions, as well as the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "film + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products. Subsequent questioning over which continuity was "more official" revealed that Mr. Chee favored film + EU continuity, but in the end it was up to the individual fan: "You're asking the Keeper of the Holocron, so of course I'm gonna be a bit biased ... The reality is that a huge number of people who have seen all 6 Star Wars films have never played a Star Wars game, visited a Star Wars website, watched a Star Wars television program, read a Star Wars publication, or purchased a Star Wars action figure or collectible. It would be great disservice to discount these people as fans." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted October 29, 2009 However yeah like *shudders* raycav said, it was a prequel so the firepower isn't going to be at par with the later ones (unless they got drunk in military defense and just never upgraded ^^) Really? They haven't been shown at all to be more powerful in the OT, IMO. The ships are bigger, and the HTL are surely more powerful then the MTL, but nothing indicates Starfighter weapons are more powerful, or personnal weapons, so I see no reason to believe that Turbolasers of size X in the OT are more powerful then the identically-sized ones in the PT. In fact, we've seen nothing in the OT that wasn't done as well in the PT. In the PT, we have weapons that, while ship sized, are capable of destroying a cruiser in one shot. The only thing we've seen capable of doing that in the OT is the DS2's Superlaser... And keep in mind that there's only been a span of 20 years between the two Trilogies, and judging by the slow technological advances in SW, 20 years shouldn't show us any leaps and bounds... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted October 29, 2009 It doesn't matter. There is levels of canonicity laid out by Lucasfilm (I think). Above everything else are the movies, both the Original Trilogy and the Prequel Trilogy. Here's the link and quote explaining the canon levels. Wookiepedia Well, the problem with this link is that the CW series weren't out at that time, so they're not included. Re-read your first paragraph, where it mentions G-Canon as being anything made by Lucas. Lucas himself was on the CW's production team, so if it's not G-Canon, it is certainly close to it, and definitely above the ICS in Canon importance... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 29, 2009 Well, the problem with this link is that the CW series weren't out at that time, so they're not included. Re-read your first paragraph, where it mentions G-Canon as being anything made by Lucas. Lucas himself was on the CW's production team, so if it's not G-Canon, it is certainly close to it, and definitely above the ICS in Canon importance... Read were it says T-Canon and the read the bottom in which the bottom line is that the OT and PT comes first over anything else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted October 29, 2009 Read were it says T-Canon and the read the bottom in which the bottom line is that the OT and PT comes first over anything else. Whoops, my bad... But, as I said, I agree that the movies trump all, but the T-Canon means the CW are of higher canon then the ICS, so those're two different higher canons that disagree with the ICS yields... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 30, 2009 yeah well I'm reading somewhere that there's another SW book that supersedes the ICS. Something called CCS? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted October 30, 2009 yeah well I'm reading somewhere that there's another SW book that supersedes the ICS. Something called CCS? I think you are referring to the Complete Cross Sections, which, as far as I know, is just a compilation of the other four books. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted October 30, 2009 Ah I see. Nevermind then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted October 30, 2009 yeah well I'm reading somewhere that there's another SW book that supersedes the ICS. Something called CCS? I'm more partial to CCR myself... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 1, 2009 Well, given how it is a cartoon, the firepower figures look more like something out of GI Joe. And in case my impression of GI Joe is off...in other words, capital-grade weaponry has trouble making dents in dirt. Well, let's be honest. It's not any more a cartoon than the CGI effects in Episodes 1-3. When you really think about it, what is CGI? Whether or not it's designed to look realistic, in the end it's all computer generated animation. I really don't see a difference, and really trying to ascribe less importance to the CW movie and TV series because of it is really a specious argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted November 1, 2009 Well, let's be honest. It's not any more a cartoon than the CGI effects in Episodes 1-3. When you really think about it, what is CGI? Whether or not it's designed to look realistic, in the end it's all computer generated animation. I really don't see a difference, and really trying to ascribe less importance to the CW movie and TV series because of it is really a specious argument. The medium isn't the issue, that's an absurd assumption. It's the careless way in which it is produced, along with the target audience. The target audience (children, thinking about 30+ year old college professors and scientists in the debate watching the show is hilarious)allows lazy editing and less than accurate firepower effects shown in the CGI battle sequences. Kids couldn't care less about the accuracy of the firepower, they watch it because it is a cartoon, not to decide if these ships could destroy the enterprise. The purpose of this show is to sell merchandise to children, so, yes, it is pretty ridiculous to seriously pick this show apart for the debate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted November 2, 2009 Trekkies will want TCW visuals to be the gold standard, until the melted crust BDZ episode, whereupon TCW will become a kids show with visuals not meant to be taken seriously Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted November 2, 2009 Trekkies will want TCW visuals to be the gold standard, until the melted crust BDZ episode, whereupon TCW will become a kids show with visuals not meant to be taken seriously I doubt we'll see something like that for one, and two the order of canon is quite clear. TCW is slightly below the movies, and well above Saxton's glorified comic book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted November 2, 2009 Trekkies will want TCW visuals to be the gold standard, until the melted crust BDZ episode, whereupon TCW will become a kids show with visuals not meant to be taken seriously While Warsies will finally accept the ICS as being inferior in Canon to movies and TCW when they see that episode... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted September 11, 2010 Bump. In light of the reading I've been doing at SFJ in this thread, and this one it's more evident than ever that the ICS is simply an embarrassment. Nothing in G or T canon supports those numbers, and it's at odds with almost all of the rest of the EU. The AotC ICS is like a 90 year old woman's pussy. Everyone knows it's down there, but is it someplace you REALLY want to go? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
