United Federations of Planets Alliance vs Galactic Empire (Expanded Universe only)

[Questor 501]

*eats his popcorn*

 

 

 

"Want a hot dog? I'm going to the snack bar."

[Praeothmin 532]

Of course, I have no doubt that you'll continue moving the goalposts, lying, and generally acting like a particularly undisciplined and uneducated child, just like you did in the other thread. Why don't you go back to SFJ and RSA's haunts, where behavior like yours is considered the height of fashion?

 

 

 

 

 

And now, you're the one who talks about things he doesn't know jack shit about...

 

Way to go...

 

 

 

For your information, StarWarsStarTrek at SFJ (Sci-Fi Fan at SB.com) lies, ignores evidence and moves goalposts, and everybody is pissed off at him for doing so...

[Khas 12,158]

That's also KirkSkywalker's style, and SFJ DESPISES him, and KSW is Pro-Trek. For proof, here's what Mith said about him:

 

 

 

You know, you're really starting to make me seriously dislike you. And that's putting it mildly given it would be against board rules to outright insult you. Who the fuck are you to smear Wong for his sexual kinks? And what in God's name do you think you have any right to post it on this site, as if we're just all going to start laughing at his expense?

 

 

 

You and mojo have quickly been earning your way to being the two most disgusting and despised people I have ever had the displeasure to speak to. Yeah, I don't like Leo1, ricrery, Rabbit, or Pointwhateverhisnumberwas for acting like Grade A dicks in debates and I don't like the way most the Vs. Debate mods do their business--which shows I think, evidence of bias.

 

 

 

But that pales--pales in comparison to the shit you're doing. This site isn't about humiliation. I don't care what job x person has, why they have it, and how they got it. I don't care what their sexual orientation is, their kinks, or anything about the type of people they're attracted/married to. How is it that I'm having to actually defend people I don't enjoy debating with half the time because you two want to start spewing hot air?

 

 

 

I'm not a mod or the admin--nor do I pretend to be. But as someone whose been here for some time, I am going to advise you that JMS is not going to put up with this sort of behavior forever. Or long for that matter. It's one thing to repeatedly violate proper debate protocols as some posters have done--it's another to spew hate speech (because that's what it is, even if it doesn't include the word 'asshole', 'dipshit', 'dumbass', and so forth).

 

 

 

Honestly, grow the fuck up. I shouldn't have to be morally outraged after reading your fucking posts. You should all be fucking ashamed at your behavior. You're worse than SWST.

 

 

 

He annoys me.

 

 

 

You both disgust me.

 

 

 

[Questor 501]

And now, you're the one who talks about things he doesn't know jack shit about...

 

Way to go...

 

 

 

For your information, StarWarsStarTrek at SFJ (Sci-Fi Fan at SB.com) lies, ignores evidence and moves goalposts, and everybody is pissed off at him for doing so...

 

 

 

Maybe they've cleaned things up since I was last there, but when I was active, SFJ was essentially the Trek version of SDN.

 

 

 

Hrmm....

 

 

 

*enters StarfleetJedi.net into address bar*

 

 

 

"OHMYGOD MY EYES! MY EYES!"

 

 

 

OH DEAR GOD!!!! THEY HAVE A WHOLE FORUM FOR THE DISCUSSION OF CANON RULES!?!?!?!?!? WHY??!?!?! - BTW, this is going to make me assume that they are either super-net-nanny types or just completely insane. Canon discussion NEVER end well.

 

 

 

Aaron posts here? Really?

 

 

 

Who the heck is this idiot? GStone? Sample:

 

 

 

I'm not at liberty to go into the specifics, but it wasn't as any kind of rebel/freedom fighter/terrorist. I'm not presently in the field and don't expect to be in the near future, as well as the partial anonymity the internet and a made up screen name (but even that is limited with things, such as electronic surveillance, both legal and not), so there is just a tad bit of leeway with just mentioning it in a general sense. But, it would be inappropriate for me to go into specifics though there is still the opening of deniability left even though the entity of 'GStone' can be thought of just some kook that was trying to make himself sound more knowledgable than he really was.

 

 

 

Well, this is an interesting thread. I find the lack of Coyote's commentary's interesting, as it seems they've been completely deleted.

 

 

 

Well, it seems that by clicking on the link in WILGA's post, the post in question is in the Hall of Shame, where SDN puts flamefests and general bad behavior (even by their standards.)

 

 

 

Another thread, and this one you're in.

 

 

 

OOHH!!! This GStone guy is fun!

 

 

 

 

 

Hrmm... this looks interesting, Picard vs. StarWarsStarTrek

 

 

 

- As an aside, who represents the mainstream? Picard or StarWarsStarTrek? -

 

 

 

OOHHH!!!! I FOUND MITH!!!!!

 

 

 

1) Visuals are not always accurate.

 

 

 

I never said you can't use visuals. That's a complete and utter red herring. My argument is that we should argue for what the story is telling us, not any individual source within the story. It would be akin to a religious zealot screaming that the part of the dogma must be followed, but ignoring the rest because it's inconvenient. Focusing primarily on the VFX effects as if they're incapable of making mistakes is in and of itself, a form of nitpicking, just with flimsy justification.

 

 

 

 

Commentary - If visuals are not always accurate, then there is no objective way to do anything and the debate is pointless. Attempting to argue technology from a story point of view is a twitch inducingly bad idea. Heck, one of the reasons why I hate EU debates (even though I do think it is canon) is that 99.999999999999% of authors are incapable of describing anythin in a way that would allow measurement. The only author that I would even begin to consider bringing into a debate for anything other than lulz would be someone along the lines of David Weber, simply because as long as we're not asking him to give us the volume of his ships, he's going to be VERY consistent and use correct units. The only way to bring in story (and dialog) into a tech debate is to do it from a "what does this society/story tell us about available technology" standpoint, and that's a very broad brush, not detail.

 

 

 

StarWarsStarTrek:

 

1. How do you determine when VFX is dominant over dialogue and when it isn't? You seem to take dialogue over visuals in ST whenever it suites ST, and with SW you nitpick the VFX of TCW to support ST. But if you are to claim that you're fair and balanced, what's is your method?

 

 

Mith:

 

The method is case by case, and whichever supports the story. I've told you this. I will not repeat myself again. Either you're capable of understanding it or not.

 

 

 

Ahh, heck, I'm just going to link the post

 

 

 

Ahh, here are you... with a pretty good point - that's why I like you.

 

 

 

Here's Picard with a Non-sequiter:

 

 

 

Except that CIS and OR fleets were using age-of-sail era tactics and equipment (fixed broadside batteries) suited for those engagements.

 

 

 

 

Evidence of either masachism or something else: I challenge Darkstar to a debate

 

 

 

By the way, there's an unhealthy obsession with Wong on that site? Did he do something unspeakable to JMS?

 

 

 

I note that you're not defending Darkstar...

 

 

 

Look, I'm not saying everyone over there is a bad poster, but I am saying that if you lie down with dogs, you shouldn't complain when people say you have fleas.

[Khas 12,158]

Man, you're looking at some old threads if you're mentioning GStone. I haven't seen him post since before I joined. GStone was someone who claimed that the UFP could defeat the Culture.

 

 

 

And Picard has been called out on wanking before. He isn't mainstream.

 

 

 

And the most hated member of the board is Pro-Trek. Look up the threads by KirkSkywalker, or his sockpuppets, SpaceWizard, SarahStar, UniversalNetGuru, HeroHeeto, and God knows how many more. KSW has claimed that the Death Star destroyed Alderaan by using Alderaan's own geothermal energy. Not joking.

 

 

 

Admiral Breetai has an excuse to hate SDN, as he was part of Comic Book Resources when SDN invaded them. They managed to drive Wong and his lackeys back, and ultimately, for a month, SW-based Vs. Matches were banned.

[Questor 501]

I should point out that the same can be done in reverse.

 

 

 

As an SDN poster with ASVS links, it's obviously only a matter of time before I flame out, curse the mods families and get myself banned. Either that or I get bored and start politics arguments on Facebook

 

 

 

I went into the forum that had the most horrific title, the canon one, but yeah, for the most part they were pretty old, but then again, that's when my opinions were formed.

 

 

 

Here's a question for you, how long would I last, if - using my normal style - I showed up on SFJ? I doubt they'd tolerate my descriptions of my opponents.

 

 

 

They may be old threads, but they were on the front page of their respective forums.

[Khas 12,158]

Hmmm, not TOO long, but, at the same time, you'd definitely last longer than KSW, SWST, or Youngla0450.

[Questor 501]

Hmmm, not TOO long, but, at the same time, you'd definitely last longer than KSW, SWST, or Youngla0450.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'm not exactly a Miss Manners poster.

 

 

 

Does SFJ have a list of people banned/deleted? If so, I should check for old aliases.

[Tyralak 12,068]

This is the difference, IMHO. People go to SDN to hear their own ideas echoed back at them. People go to SFJ for polite, but passionless discussion. People come here for interesting debate, disgusting humor and verbal abuse.

[Questor 501]

To each their own, but I find that Miss Manners debates generally devolve into talking past each other. Especially without an active, and impartial mod staff that is empowered to close topics and declare winners if people don't obey rules.

 

 

 

Of course, I've never really thought that moderation is that great an idea, hence my preference for USENET. I've always thought the relatively unique "style" of ASVS came about as a way to deal with the heavy use of killfilters. The more outrageous or insulting a statement, the more likely it was to be quoted.

[Khas 12,158]

Yeah, I'm not exactly a Miss Manners poster.

 

 

 

Does SFJ have a list of people banned/deleted? If so, I should check for old aliases.

 

 

 

The only people who were permabanned were KSW sockpuppets, since they were created to circumvent the permabans of his other sockpuppets.

[Jason 27]

Once bring books it Star War Empire will not even be able to run to try escape unlike cannon Star Terk Empire can at least run to flee mightily UFP.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Once bring books it Star War Empire will not even be able to run to try escape unlike cannon Star Terk Empire can at least run to flee mightily UFP.

 

 

 

This is almost like running a sentence through Google translate from English to Chinese, and back again 3 or 4 times and looking at the result.

[Picard578 0]

Translated to best of my abilities:

 

 

 

Jason: "Once we bring books in, Imperial hyperdrive will be slower than Star Trek Warp Drive."

 

 

 

And Picard has been called out on wanking before.

 

 

 

I suppose you are referring to my old mind play about possibility of UFP using ultra-dense deuterium, which was just that - mind play.

 

 

 

Or maybe "Death Star drill"... I really should do calculationd for that...

[A.Ron.Hubbard 0]

One thing I've come away with from my ASVS (usenet) experience, is that with a stagnant set of data (which at this point, both SW and ST are), you can have structured debate that arrives at a conclusion, or you can have a living debate. But you can't have both. With structure, once rules of evidence, procedure, and argument are put in place, an answer to the debate is quickly found and accepted by a majority. Then the debate dies. Any new blood that is injected is quickly shouted down.

 

 

 

Alternatively, with less structure, and canon rules that require judgment and interpretation, you can have a debate that literally rages forever, but which will never be solved.

 

 

 

I personally enjoyed the arc of the "campaign" that was fought on ASVS, and after all the Star Wars movies were over, and Trek went stagnant, there went the debate. I'm a set in my ways pro-wars proponent, and nothing that could be released at this point by LucasArts or Paramount would sway me. If Wars were neutered or Trek gained a 1000 levels in "asskicking", I'd decry it as stupid and contradictory and proceed on my merry wars way.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to see a take on the UFP 10k years in the future, where it is a, oh I don't know, very old republic sort of government that spans the milky way. Where all the hostile races and factions have been incorporated in the body politic. You'd have Borg representatives. S8472 would be in there. The Cardasians and Founders and everyone else as one more or less united front. Maybe the Orion slave traders would be analogous to the Hutts, semi-organised gangsters that operate at the fringes of fedspace.

 

 

 

One could argue that version of Trek could give Wars real problems. If they continue to use teleportation, and have limited mastery of time travel or at least a chrono-police force, continue to pursue cloaking technology and not dismiss it... that would be interesting. Or maybe they'd end up about where the SW galaxy is, only with no Jedi. Or maybe the Q would serve as their Jedi, after humanity "proves" itself by uniting the galaxy in peace?

[enigma 521]

Steering the topic back on hand, attributing super-weapons belonging to each side, the GE will still win due to sheer wank.

 

 

 

As mentioned before, weapons like the Sun Crusher and the Centerpoint Station can render countless UFPA star systems useless either by blowing them up or in the case of the CS, grab the planet and toss it into a star and on top of that the GE's sheer industrial capacity to build DSs, ISDs and the like will seriously put a crimp in the UFPA's plans.

 

 

 

As for outside power superweapons, while the ST side has V'Ger, SW side has the Shawken Device. A bomb that was designed to destroy the whole universe by blowing up a planet and shunting the fragments into hyperspace where it would quickly collide with other planets\stars\what have you, until all matter was destroyed. Though it is pure speculation that it could work since obviously if it did then there'd be no SW universe. lol

 

 

 

The UFP cannot win since they are not of the mindset to develop superweapons and would most likely be horrified at the thought and would probably stop other powers from developing their own.

 

 

 

The GE has no such mindset. They gleefully develop weapons that would and have caused wanton death and destruction.

[Tyralak 12,068]

One thing I've come away with from my ASVS (usenet) experience, is that with a stagnant set of data (which at this point, both SW and ST are), you can have structured debate that arrives at a conclusion, or you can have a living debate. But you can't have both. With structure, once rules of evidence, procedure, and argument are put in place, an answer to the debate is quickly found and accepted by a majority. Then the debate dies. Any new blood that is injected is quickly shouted down.

 

 

 

Alternatively, with less structure, and canon rules that require judgment and interpretation, you can have a debate that literally rages forever, but which will never be solved.

 

 

 

I personally enjoyed the arc of the "campaign" that was fought on ASVS, and after all the Star Wars movies were over, and Trek went stagnant, there went the debate. I'm a set in my ways pro-wars proponent, and nothing that could be released at this point by LucasArts or Paramount would sway me. If Wars were neutered or Trek gained a 1000 levels in "asskicking", I'd decry it as stupid and contradictory and proceed on my merry wars way.

 

 

 

It would be interesting to see a take on the UFP 10k years in the future, where it is a, oh I don't know, very old republic sort of government that spans the milky way. Where all the hostile races and factions have been incorporated in the body politic. You'd have Borg representatives. S8472 would be in there. The Cardasians and Founders and everyone else as one more or less united front. Maybe the Orion slave traders would be analogous to the Hutts, semi-organised gangsters that operate at the fringes of fedspace.

 

 

 

One could argue that version of Trek could give Wars real problems. If they continue to use teleportation, and have limited mastery of time travel or at least a chrono-police force, continue to pursue cloaking technology and not dismiss it... that would be interesting. Or maybe they'd end up about where the SW galaxy is, only with no Jedi. Or maybe the Q would serve as their Jedi, after humanity "proves" itself by uniting the galaxy in peace?

 

 

 

Well said. I feel exactly the same, except the sides being reversed. I firmly believe Trek would win, and always will. The Trek universe is highly varied, and races such as the Borg and Species 8472 would quickly tip the scales in Trek's favor. You're very correct, that as long as the universes stay stagnant in production of new material, the debate will remain stagnant. This is why I was so excited about Star Trek Online and TCW. New material, new ideas. Speaking of TCW, however, I had a talk with Brian the other day. He's of the opinion that TCW is a continuity nightmare, and that it has major and numerous contradictions to the films. This is a question I'd like to explore. Inf act, I think I'll start a new thread on it.

[Khas 12,158]

Steering the topic back on hand, attributing super-weapons belonging to each side, the GE will still win due to sheer wank.

 

 

 

As mentioned before, weapons like the Sun Crusher and the Centerpoint Station can render countless UFPA star systems useless either by blowing them up or in the case of the CS, grab the planet and toss it into a star and on top of that the GE's sheer industrial capacity to build DSs, ISDs and the like will seriously put a crimp in the UFPA's plans.

 

 

 

As for outside power superweapons, while the ST side has V'Ger, SW side has the Shawken Device. A bomb that was designed to destroy the whole universe by blowing up a planet and shunting the fragments into hyperspace where it would quickly collide with other planets\stars\what have you, until all matter was destroyed. Though it is pure speculation that it could work since obviously if it did then there'd be no SW universe. lol

 

 

 

The UFP cannot win since they are not of the mindset to develop superweapons and would most likely be horrified at the thought and would probably stop other powers from developing their own.

 

 

 

The GE has no such mindset. They gleefully develop weapons that would and have caused wanton death and destruction.

 

 

 

The EU UFP has planet-cracker bombs, and at least two starships carried multiple bombs:

 

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Planet-cracker_bomb

 

 

 

As for the Shawken device, there was no evidence to say that is even could work.

[enigma 521]

The EU UFP has planet-cracker bombs, and at least two starships carried multiple bombs:

 

http://memory-beta.w...et-cracker_bomb

 

 

 

As for the Shawken device, there was no evidence to say that is even could work.

 

 

 

But there's no evidence that it couldn't either since the only way to find out is to activate it. It was activated once but it was quickly deactivated by Luke Skywalker because he did not want to take the chance that the superweapon would work.

 

 

 

The only way to find out is to go to another universe and detonate it.

 

 

 

The GE has stepped up their game and have star system destroying weapons.

 

 

 

But within the parameters of this scenario the GE would still win.

[Jason 27]

Once UFP using transpotor doorways the Empire will fall fly.

[Praeothmin 532]

@Questor: As Khas said, GStone hasn't been posting in a while, and I didn't agree with everything he said...

 

In fact, I didn't believe half of what he usually wrote (like in the thread you linked)...

 

Aaron, or Cpl. Kendall as we know him at SFJ and DITL.org, hasn't posted in a while either, and frankly, I miss his input...

 

While Mike DiCenso is a Trekker, and will always be, he usually comes in with a lot of facts and evidence, and even if you don't agree with his conclusions entirely, you still hve to face the evidence presented and work with it...

 

Khas is a moderate Trekker, as I believe myself to be, and Kor is as much a Trekker as Mike is...

 

Genreral Donner is a moderate Warsie, and we constitute half of the posters at SFJ, and neither of us ignore evidence when it is presented...

 

Breetai usually doens't either, except lately when presented by SWST...

 

Basically, I'm just saying that at least 50% of those present do not act as you described Picard acting, and even Picard doesn't act like that the majority of the time at SFJ...

 

I just took exception to that comment, that's all...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

This is the difference, IMHO. People go to SDN to hear their own ideas echoed back at them. People go to SFJ for polite, but passionless discussion. People come here for interesting debate, disgusting humor and verbal abuse.

SFJ is the same way only with ST and pretending to be nice. How many people there who argue against the general consensus are taken seriously?

 

 

 

 

 

To each their own, but I find that Miss Manners debates generally devolve into talking past each other. Especially without an active, and impartial mod staff that is empowered to close topics and declare winners if people don't obey rules.

 

 

 

Of course, I've never really thought that moderation is that great an idea, hence my preference for USENET. I've always thought the relatively unique "style" of ASVS came about as a way to deal with the heavy use of killfilters. The more outrageous or insulting a statement, the more likely it was to be quoted.

SFJ is the same shithole it its always been.

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose you are referring to my old mind play about possibility of UFP using ultra-dense deuterium, which was just that - mind play.

Mind play you clung to like a child holding a security blanket. When the majority of your adoring fans at SFJ weren't giving you the cheerleader routine you expected, your calc numbers went down until you got your cheerleader sqaud

[Khas 12,158]

SFJ is the same way only with ST and pretending to be nice. How many people there who argue against the general consensus are taken seriously?

 

 

 

Kane Starkiller, The Dude/Cpl Kendall, General Donner, and ILikeDeathNote. You also have to remember that two of the most prominent Pro-Wars debaters are StarWarsStarTrek and Youngla0450. Not exactly shining members of the Pro-Wars side. Of course, the Pro-Trek side also has the KirkSkywalker Retard Brigade, who is seen universally as a turbo-wanker, as he wanks ST worse than Jason, and Mith even called him the most disgusting human being he'd ever had the misfortune of meeting, saying he liked Leo1, white_rabbit, and ricery1 more than him.

[Picard578 0]

Mind play you clung to like a child holding a security blanket. When the majority of your adoring fans at SFJ weren't giving you the cheerleader routine you expected, your calc numbers went down until you got your cheerleader sqaud

 

 

 

Please. When did my numbers go down? I did loads of calculations, and lowest numbers were for "Rise", about 200 MT. And lowest PhoTorp yield (that is, maximum yield) I ever advised was 500 MT. Now its around 17.3 to 31.4 GT. So don't try to warp reality to your likening. I change my views as I find new evidence or reconsider old one, or if I discover error in calculation. If you think that I should say "that is that" and cling to it even when it becomes clear that reasoning or calculations behind it are flawed... well.

[Praeothmin 532]

SFJ is the same way only with ST and pretending to be nice. How many people there who argue against the general consensus are taken seriously?

 

 

 

Yeah, right!

 

As Khas said, Kane Starkiller, Cpl Kendall, and right now General Donner are taken seriously...

 

Why?

 

Because they used what is called "evidence" and "logical thinking", they didn't simply wank SW away like many Warsies do...

 

They don't ignore evidence which has been presented, unlike SWST...

 

 

 

SFJ is the same shithole it its always been.

 

 

 

It's improved since you stopped posting there...

 

 

 

Mind play you clung to like a child holding a security blanket. When the majority of your adoring fans at SFJ weren't giving you the cheerleader routine you expected, your calc numbers went down until you got your cheerleader sqaud

 

 

 

 

Mind backing up this bullshit with facts?