What role would the intellegnce community in UFP and Star War Empire play in the war fight againist each other

[Jason 27]

My option UFP intelligence agency walk all Empire intelligence agency. With fact Empire could not even find secret rebel base and rebel able steal the Death star plan. No matter what think the fact had let few rebel escape order find that base show poor intelligence agency come know about enemy. UFP intelligence agency how every effective has had miss falls it not none existed. Only reason the Rebel Alliens beaten Star War Empire because poor poor intelligence forces.

[Picard578 0]

Starfleet Intelligence had its own misses too - biggest being capture of Betazed (fairly important member world) by Dominion.

[Khas 12,158]

Both have shown high levels of both competence and incompetence. So in other words, meh.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Still an interesting conversation, though. Not a debate that I've had before. Mainly because it is pretty hard to debate, what with intelligence's most important job of not being caught at their jobs, meaning that we do not get to see them at work. So, as far as overall operations are concerned, we cannot really say anything about the effectiveness of their practices. And Star Trek has a lot more source material, and thus a ton more instances where intelligence played a key part of the story. For SW intelligence you have prime examples of the two Death star plans falling into ebel hands. One instance of which doesn't really count, because it was actually a trap set by the Empire. Then you have the whole clone army thing with no one being aware of it, and Palpatine being a Sith and actively moving pieces as one and never getting caught.....

 

 

 

 

 

I dunno. Pretty interesting angle to think about, though.

[Jason 27]

Starfleet Intelligence had its own misses too - biggest being capture of Betazed (fairly important member world) by Dominion.

 

 

 

I never said Starfleet intelligence agency was perfect fact Dominion able launch surprise attack Betazed say that however Syria and Egypt catch Israel off ground during Yom Kipper war Mossade is best intelligence agency in Middle East. Dominion by way pretty good intelligence service on own right. The Dominion intelligence able infiltrate both Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar extremely effective intelligence agency. Empire nothing near level of effective enough otherwise they would crush Rebel like a unwanted bug. By way UFP intelligence even able infiltrate Dominion it self during Dominion war. Also the way Rebel brought Empire down happen good part do good intelligence.

 

 

 

Also fact Empire could find Rebel base need let heroes escape and fact need probe find other rebel base show very poor intelligence ability.

[GhanjRho 0]

Let's be fair here. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Empire, which covers a very large portion of it's galaxy. Finding a hidden base in the area the Empire has to search is akin to searching for a particular rock in the Federation. And not a distinctive rock, either.

[Praeothmin 532]

Let's be fair here. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Empire, which covers a very large portion of it's galaxy. Finding a hidden base in the area the Empire has to search is akin to searching for a particular rock in the Federation. And not a distinctive rock, either.

 

 

 

But but but... I thought the Empire had a Gazillion soldiers and droids and a Bazillion ships all over the Galaxy to cover, compared to the Federation's pitiful thousand worlds?

[Jason 27]

Let's be fair here. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Empire, which covers a very large portion of it's galaxy. Finding a hidden base in the area the Empire has to search is akin to searching for a particular rock in the Federation. And not a distinctive rock, either.

 

 

 

That not strong argument fact is Empire should had good number spies inside the Rebel Alliances at least few them should been in that secret rebel base . UFP get spies into Maquis it self. Maquis and Star war rebel Alliance in practice very smiler.

[Picard578 0]

@GhanjRho Star Wars galaxy is smaller than Star Trek one, althought still larger than Federation.

 

 

 

@Jason But Rebel Alliance mostly stays on the run - or at least their HQ does, we know that they have abandoned base on Dantooine even before Empire found it - while Maquis are simply terrorist and freedom fighters (one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist) so they basically rely on not being seen and probably hide their equipment in various locations, but I never saw any indication of some grand mobility.

[Jason 27]

Then the Imperial intelligence great deal information Wookieepedia My link

 

 

 

Also Empire has Imperial Security Bureau My link

 

 

 

Basic put into simple terms these two intelligence agency job to spies on each other and enemies of the Empire as will carry assassinations mission.

 

 

 

Not like either agencies something Starfleet command not handle before very effectively. UFP intellence basic get spies into the Dominion it self not in could fact also spies both Cardasson Union and Romulan star Empire way before Dominion war started. In practice USS Enterprise D scan 10 light years in 24 hours for starship other object. UFP thousand starships UFP much easily time keep eye Empire fleet movements. Neither Empire nor Rebel allies show anything like this able.

[Khas 12,158]

Let's be fair here. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Empire, which covers a very large portion of it's galaxy. Finding a hidden base in the area the Empire has to search is akin to searching for a particular rock in the Federation. And not a distinctive rock, either.

 

 

 

Actually, the Empire is stated to control "a small area of a modest-sized galaxy". Also, given that within a thousand light-years of Sol IRL, there are 50 million stars, the Empire could control a small area of space and still meet the requirements of having "a million systems".

[GhanjRho 0]

To Jason.

 

The Maquis were born out of displaced colonists. their recruiting process was incredibly open. What checks they did have were to prevent spoonhead infiltration, not Fed.

 

 

 

The Rebellion was born out of ex-Clone Wars military units, such as the Kota Militia, which were then unified with political dissident groups by Darth Vader. In other words, the Rebellion was built from groups that understood counter-intelligence. While they may have had someone on the secret base, there is no indication that they would have been able to get a signal out to the Empire at large. And even if they did, guess what happens? the Rebels pack up and move their base, conducting a through security sweep through their own ranks.

[Jason 27]

Put aside the Empire failer to find rebel base the fact Rebel able steal topic secret blue print for the first Death star is massive failer when come ground classified information. First death star the Empire did not just let them steal it form them.

 

 

 

Fact rebel able to spies deep with in Empire intelligence like Jan Ors My link

 

Hardly show Empire contour intelligence effective fact UFP intelligence has by infiltrate some Romulan star Empire and Cardasson Union both known have agency very effective.

[Picard578 0]

Uhh... my head hurts. That post is just messed up.

 

 

 

Section 31 is more effective than Imperial Intelligence, but it is NOT intelligence agency, it is black ops and counter-intelligence agency. As for Imperial intelligence, we know nothing of it (at least, from "G canon"), aside from the fact that it was unable to protect DSI's plans, but was able to discover who had taken them and where Leia's ship was heading for.

[Jason 27]

Uhh... my head hurts. That post is just messed up.

 

 

 

Section 31 is more effective than Imperial Intelligence, but it is NOT intelligence agency, it is black ops and counter-intelligence agency. As for Imperial intelligence, we know nothing of it (at least, from "G canon"), aside from the fact that it was unable to protect DSI's plans, but was able to discover who had taken them and where Leia's ship was heading for.

 

 

 

With information all three movies thing get good idea Empire intelligence strength and weakness are. Empire strength seem very effective at using spies that pretend to spies for the rebel but really work Empire. Both the New Hope were Empire able know what stole information was aboard Leia ship and were able to lead rebel right into trap at least two example of Empire seem us spies pretend work for rebel. Empire strict back show the Empire learn mistake death star upgrade able search rebel base us probes and that the Empire has spies all worlds in star systems.

[GhanjRho 0]

The Alliance first learned of the Death Star's existence through the Force, after Vader took the rebel leadership there. Following that, it seems only logical that they would devote any and all intelligence resources (of which they had quite a few, the Rebellion included parts of the Bothan spynet) to finding the plans for it, in the hopes of finding a way to neutralize it.

[Jason 27]

The Alliance first learned of the Death Star's existence through the Force, after Vader took the rebel leadership there. Following that, it seems only logical that they would devote any and all intelligence resources (of which they had quite a few, the Rebellion included parts of the Bothan spynet) to finding the plans for it, in the hopes of finding a way to neutralize it.

 

In practice no cannon evidence that they learn about Death star though force. For that matter at least as far books at least two different stories on how they get death star plans.All Movies tell us is they get it.

 

My link

 

My link

[GhanjRho 0]

In practice no cannon evidence that they learn about Death star though force. For that matter at least as far books at least two different stories on how they get death star plans.All Movies tell us is they get it.

 

My link

 

My link

 

 

 

I refer you to "The Force Unleashed", which has been declared to be G-Canon. which is the same tier as the movies. The EU exists, deal with it.

 

http://www.subspace-comms.net/index.php?topic=2689.0;wap2

[Picard578 0]

EU exists but isn't canon... barring some special rules on discussion boards. On THIS forum, EU is regarded as lower-tier canon by Word of Local God, meaning that any discussion about that is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Besides, is there statement by Lucas himself that TFU is G-canon? Forums generally aren't reliable source.

[GhanjRho 0]

EU exists but isn't canon... barring some special rules on discussion boards. On THIS forum, EU is regarded as lower-tier canon by Word of Local God, meaning that any discussion about that is irrelevant.

 

 

 

Besides, is there statement by Lucas himself that TFU is G-canon? Forums generally aren't reliable source.

 

 

 

the official Lucasfilm canon policy states that all EU materials are C-canon, which places them below G-canon (Episodes I-VI + Direct statements from GL himself) and T-canon (Episode 2.fail, sorry, the Clone Wars and the Clone Wars animated series(es))

 

 

 

There is, in the GI article that first talked about TFU "The game's events are considered an official part of the Star Wars canon, an honor that hasn't been bestowed upon previous original Star Wars games."

[Khas 12,158]

Yup, TFU is part of the canon. I remember bringing up TONS of articles trying to get that fucktard KSW to see reason.

[Tyralak 12,068]

It's well known that TFU is part of SW canon, but where is the firsthand source saying it's part of G canon? As far as I know, it's part of the EU.

[Khas 12,158]

http://www.subspace-comms.net/index.php?topic=2689.0

[Picard578 0]

I would still like to see Lucas' statement on that matter - I wasn't able to find anything on first link given at that forum, and I don't trust forums in that regard. Nor do I trust anyone who says something before Lucas says something. It might be pure merchandizing trick as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself."

 

 

 

They will have to include TFU in that, if it is G-canon.

[Khas 12,158]

TFU came out in '08. If they had said that Lucas said the game was canon without him actually saying so, they would have gotten in a lot of legal trouble by now, and we would've heard.

 

 

 

Here's an article about Lucas' involvement in it, and it's canonicity: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-10042368-52.html