Starfleet vs. Chaos Daemons

[Khas 12,158]

In Warhammer 40,000, it mentions that the Warp, home to the Chaos Gods and their daemon servants exists outside the flow of linear time, or at least it sure as hell behaves like it does. In Star Trek, life-forms not native to linear time, like the Bajoran Prophets and pah-wraiths, are easily killed by chroniton particles. So could 25th century Starfleet (which has access to chroniton torpedoes) be a major pain in the ass to Chaos?

[Tyralak 12,068]

Possible. However, do the Chaos Daemons count as superbeings?

[Khas 12,158]

Not really, as they have been killed by mortal beings. The gods might, considering that they can't leave the Warp.

[Jason 27]

Possible. However, do the Chaos Daemons count as superbeings?

 

 

 

In practice depend what call super being that rule make no sense. I personal think removed however. Now thing get fun in practice They existed another parallel universe known as the Warp. I agree smiler to Wornhole alien could most likely harm and kill Chroniton radiation. Starship armed chroniton torpedoes. Also DS9 unleash great deal of Chroniton radiation rid DS9 Worn hole alien and pah-wraith so UFP most likley same kind technology leave star system clean of Chaos Daemons. Also Romulain interphsdr generation made great deal of chroniton radical.

[enigma 521]

The question is, how badly would the Fed ships be affected by Chaos?

[Khas 12,158]

If they can flood the ship with chronitons in time, then Chaos daemons shouldn't be too much of a problem. If not, then it won't end well for the Feds.

[enigma 521]

If they can flood the ship with chronitons in time, then Chaos daemons shouldn't be too much of a problem. If not, then it won't end well for the Feds.

 

 

 

We cannot assume that chroniton weapons would work on Chaos. They are not the wormhole aliens or the Pah'wraiths. It is not a generic anti-super being weapon.

[Khas 12,158]

I never said it was. It's just mentioned on Memory Alpha that beings who normally live outside of linear time are harmed by chronitons, and 40K states that the Warp is outside linear time. I just put those two together and wondered if it would work against Chaos.

[enigma 521]

I never said it was. It's just mentioned on Memory Alpha that beings who normally live outside of linear time are harmed by chronitons, and 40K states that the Warp is outside linear time. I just put those two together and wondered if it would work against Chaos.

 

 

 

The Warp is another dimension altogether.

 

 

 

Here's the description of the Warp or Immaterium.

 

 

 

The Immaterium (also referred to as the Empyrean, Aether or Warp) is an alternate dimension of purely psychic energy that echoes and underlies the familiar four dimensions of the material universe. It is the source of all psychic powers and known instances of so-called "sorcery" and the home dimension of the Chaos Gods and their myriad daemonic servants. Superficially, it is the Warhammer 40,000 solution to the problem of faster than light travel, an equivalent to the Star Wars universe's dimension of hyperspace. This function as a faster than light medium for travel is achieved by the Immaterium being a domain of pure psychic energy, with spacecraft navigating between currents, as in an ocean. The psychic energy that makes up the Immaterium is believed to be the direct result of the existence of sentience in the universe, in particular the Milky Way Galaxy. Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form. Stirred by emotion and action, the Immaterium is the true realm of Chaos, home to the dark gods who comprise the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic followers. It also is rumoured to house the spirits of the dead, and therefore can be considered the "Underworld" of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

[Khas 12,158]

Then what about where the Prophets live, at least, when they show themselves to mortals? Isn't that an alternate dimension. I mean, the wormhole is one thing, but it's not necessarily where the Prophets live, since they were the ones who created it, thus making it a portal to where they live, as well as the Gamma Quadrant?

[enigma 521]

Then what about where the Prophets live, at least, when they show themselves to mortals? Isn't that an alternate dimension. I mean, the wormhole is one thing, but it's not necessarily where the Prophets live, since they were the ones who created it, thus making it a portal to where they live, as well as the Gamma Quadrant?

 

 

 

The Warp is an alternate dimension yet is the foundation or the basis for the four dimensions. Not the same. Also chroniton weapons would not work against the Q since they are not part of this continuum.

 

 

 

[Khas 12,158]

Well, the Q are stated in "Q2" to have their own version of linear time...

[enigma 521]

Well, the Q are stated in "Q2" to have their own version of linear time...

 

 

 

And you can't eliminate the Warp just like you can't eliminate the 3rd dimension.

[Khas 12,158]

I didn't say "eliminate the Warp", I said "eliminate the daemons".

[GhanjRho 0]

The problem is that the Chaos Gods are basically invulnerable. As long as people feel, well, any emotion really, they will be fueling the power of one of the Gods.

[Khas 12,158]

But it does mention that they can be killed. And besides, it was mainly against their daemons that Starfleet was pitted against in this thread. I was also wondering what effect flooding a warp rift with chronitons would have.

 

 

 

Also, this was a dead thread until J-boy resurrected it.

[enigma 521]

But it does mention that they can be killed. And besides, it was mainly against their daemons that Starfleet was pitted against in this thread. I was also wondering what effect flooding a warp rift with chronitons would have.

 

 

 

Also, this was a dead thread until J-boy resurrected it.

 

 

 

 

 

Durr. While yes they can be killed just not the warp itself.

 

 

 

But Fed ships and the crew would have no defense once their mind is tainted by Chaos. What are they going to do? Shoot themselves with chronitons? lol.

[Khas 12,158]

No. Just flood the ship with chronitons. Worked in driving out Prophets and Pah-Wraiths in "The Reckoning". And I never said that they could destroy the Warp, just purge the daemons. Now I wonder, what would happen if I bombarded Jason with chronitons....

[enigma 521]

No. Just flood the ship with chronitons. Worked in driving out Prophets and Pah-Wraiths in "The Reckoning". And I never said that they could destroy the Warp, just purge the daemons. Now I wonder, what would happen if I bombarded Jason with chronitons....

 

 

 

 

 

AFAIK, you don't need actual daemons to be in the ship for have the crew be "possessed" and literally deform the ship into a twisted version of the original. Kinda hard to fight back when your mind is twisted beyond belief and later so does your body.

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

...

In Warhammer 40,000, it mentions that the Warp, home to the Chaos Gods and their daemon servants exists outside the flow of linear time, or at least it sure as hell behaves like it does. In Star Trek, life-forms not native to linear time, like the Bajoran Prophets and pah-wraiths, are easily killed by chroniton particles. So could 25th century Starfleet (which has access to chroniton torpedoes) be a major pain in the ass to Chaos?

 

 

 

I never said it was. It's just mentioned on Memory Alpha that beings who normally live outside of linear time are harmed by chronitons, and 40K states that the Warp is outside linear time. I just put those two together and wondered if it would work against Chaos.

 

 

 

It's actually a very good logic.

 

 

 

I recently read a couple WH40K threads at SBC where it's said that Chaos Gods have always and never existed, that kind of thing, and that time and space are all fucked up. There's no thing such as linear time in the Aether. There it makes no sense, actually, to try to quantify the age of the Chaos Gods. Time in Warp goes in all directions, it's a big effin' mess.

 

 

 

If chronitron particles can kill beings on the principle that such beings are vulnerable to those particles because they live ouside linear time, then any Warp creature would logically be vulnerable.

 

 

 

This brings a whole new set of interesting questions, notably by comparing the Warp drives' Geller field in 40K to, say, the system used by the Borg to travel through the transwarp holes.

 

Read this, from Memory Alpha:

 

 

 

The Borg utilized chroniton fields, projected throughout a Borg vessel via specially-designed conduits, to compensate for the extreme temporal stress of a transwarp conduit. (VOY: "Shattered")

 

 

Obvious question: What Would the Borg Do? Or more precisely, how would they do in the Warp?

 

 

 

The description from MA about the transwarp conduit itself is equally eloquent:

 

 

 

A transwarp conduit, also known as a transwarp corridor, was an artificially-created energy conduit through a realm of subspace known as transwarp space. They were utilized by the Borg to cover great distances in a relatively short period of time. Accessed via tachyon pulses of alternating frequencies, the conduits contained a matter stream in which a vessel could reach velocities at least twenty times greater than the maximum warp speed of a Galaxy-class starship, in a process Lieutenant Commander Geordi La Forge described as "like falling into a fast-moving river and being swept away by the current." (TNG: "Descent", VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Shattered")

 

 

Sounds very Warpish, doesn't it?

 

 

 

Upon entering a conduit, a vessel was subject to extreme gravimetric shear. To compensate for this, the Borg projected a structural integrity field ahead of the ship. Additionally, there were extreme temporal stresses placed upon the vessel, necessitating a chroniton field be projected throughout the ship in order to keep the different sections of the ship in temporal synch. (VOY: "Dark Frontier", "Inside Man", "Shattered", "Endgame")

 

 

In other words, nothing such as time is linear in the transwarp. Everything is tumultuous. It's like being thrown into a storm, a torrent with multiple temporal currents which would cut a ship to pieces.

 

Obviously, differences exist between what is described as the Warp, and Star Trek's transwarp, but it's not much of a problem.

 

 

 

Does it mean other civilizations couldn't get into transwarp and survive? Well, some other races have managed to succeed. Even Voyager finally managed to get into one of such conduits and travel safely.

 

Strangely enough, the USS Raven managed to track a Cube and be sucked into a conduit. Perhaps it was following a wake left by the Cube.

 

I don't know enough about the show to know how much changes had to be brought to Voyager to allow for a safe trip through transwarp. It seems that Voyager herself didn't need much addition to be capable of entering such a transwarp conduit, but I count on Trekkies to correct me on that.

 

 

 

There could be conflicting facts, because typical UFP shields of the 24th century would easily be bypassed by chroniton torpedoes.

 

It's unclear why such abilities wouldn't be just as useful against solid matter. That said, as shields have frequencies, and frequencies are automatically relatable to time in a way or another, while matter essentially always is there and the same, at least at such scales and in this dimension of realspace, perhaps this single difference explains why those torps can ignore shields but not hulls.

 

 

 

Nevertheless, we see that there are solutions to survive the "natural" temporal conflicting shifts without being shred to confettis, which would be rather useful to survive in the Warp imho.

 

 

 

The technology aboard the Voyager allowed the doc to create a biotemporal field. It's from an alt reality, but all the required tech was the same.

 

Actually, the doc's capacity to solve time related problem is quite baffling. Case in point, saving Chakotay from the temporal fragmentation caused by the chronokinetic surge.

 

 

 

I think it's safe to state that at this point in time, the UFP could handle a great many aspects of the time-related troubles caused by the Warp as long as they're similar and of the same scale.

 

Chakotay was also able to quickly modify the ship's field projectors within seconds to avoid the same catastrophe a second time: the Voyager technically had all the tools required to take care of a surge known to cause great trouble to the realspace/spacetime continuum.

 

 

 

What is more important is that it means that the Trek ships could cross into the Warp and see their crews not as exposed as 40K crews, both because of the existence of fields capable of repelling "temporal nonsenses" if you want, and the fact that creatures from Star Trek would be blank, therefore not allow demons to board their ships.

 

 

 

Now, moving back to the topic, we see that with chroniton radiation, if it is applied to a person used as a host by a Pah-wraith, and if levels are slowly raised, the entity will leave the host without harm. Obviously the same would apply to the Bajoran Prophets.

 

The fact that the Pah-wraith wanted to destroy their enemies by shooting a beam of chronitons from DS9 right into the wormhole.

 

 

 

Strangely enough, the Prophets weren't without a capacity to provide unique artifacts, one of which, the Orb of Time, was a convenient plot device to allow characters to travel through time.

 

Just like the Orb of Prophecy and Change, which can only exist as long as time is acknowledged.

 

That's possibly some manifestation of stuff leaked by the Prophets into spacetime continuum. It doesn't mean the Prophets even understood what happened. But that, again, would have to be verified by more knowledgeable people.

 

 

 

What happened in "ST: First Contact" would imply that the UFP already had a great understanding of techniques relatively easy enough to put into immediate application in order to copy paste the principles of vortexes being source of chronometric particles.

 

 

 

The Warp is another dimension altogether.

 

 

 

Here's the description of the Warp or Immaterium.

 

The Immaterium (also referred to as the Empyrean, Aether or Warp) is an alternate dimension of purely psychic energy that echoes and underlies the familiar four dimensions of the material universe. It is the source of all psychic powers and known instances of so-called "sorcery" and the home dimension of the Chaos Gods and their myriad daemonic servants. Superficially, it is the Warhammer 40,000 solution to the problem of faster than light travel, an equivalent to the Star Wars universe's dimension of hyperspace. This function as a faster than light medium for travel is achieved by the Immaterium being a domain of pure psychic energy, with spacecraft navigating between currents, as in an ocean. The psychic energy that makes up the Immaterium is believed to be the direct result of the existence of sentience in the universe, in particular the Milky Way Galaxy. Considered to be a dark reflection of the material universe, the Warp is an ocean of chaos, raw emotion given energetic form. Stirred by emotion and action, the Immaterium is the true realm of Chaos, home to the dark gods who comprise the Ruinous Powers and their daemonic followers. It also is rumoured to house the spirits of the dead, and therefore can be considered the "Underworld" of the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A pity it comes from Lexicanum, because I'd love to know if the ships fly along currents or between currents. It makes quite a difference.

 

I'll point out that by all descriptions I've seen from Memory Alpha, subspace and subsequently transwarp space can easily be considered other dimensions.

 

More accurately, subspace can actually interesect with transdimensional realms, such as the Fifth dimension.

 

It goes without saying that many warp/subspace related phenomena can lead to time travel and other time related oddities.

 

So...

 

 

 

The Warp is an alternate dimension yet is the foundation or the basis for the four dimensions. Not the same.

 

 

 

... wouldn't seem to be a problem at all.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is that the Chaos Gods are basically invulnerable. As long as people feel, well, any emotion really, they will be fueling the power of one of the Gods.

 

 

 

As I understand it, this is not exact. The Chaos Gods feed upon the emotions of lifeforms having souls, that is, a connection, artificial or not, to the Warp.

 

Not to say that it takes a certain level of debauchery for a god such as Slaneesh to have appeared.

 

Actually, the idea that such gods always existed, time wise, is technically inaccurate as Slaneesh was born from specific conditions.

 

Although in a place of time, it doesn't matter because there's no calendar proper, and so yes, Slaneesh never existed as well as always existed, their manifestation is clearly linked to tangible events precisely timed as far as it matters for realspace beings.

 

 

 

A the end of this chapter, it is claimed that Slaneesh was given life mainly from the emotion of powerful psykers, implying that a race full of latent psychic power but totally unrealized would never give birth to a "god" at all.

 

The Eldars are a notch above the latent humans (outside of the natural born psykers that is) in terms of connection to the Warp. The believed growth of the essence of Ynnead and his future birth is based on the same principle.

 

 

 

PS: sorry if some text colour isn't matching your current board style. Mine has a dark background.

 

PSbis: This board has a broken software. It kept telling me I had to enter a post despite the fact that the empty space of the form that receives the text was full of text, quotes, etc. I copied the whole text into a basic text reader (like word pad), which got rid of the special colours. This allowed me to post. So there seems to be a problem with some of the colours (I used the fourth orange colour from the set).

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Their ships explode when Daemon possessed jem'hadar fighters crash into their warp nacelles

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

Their ships explode when Daemon possessed jem'hadar fighters crash into their warp nacelles

 

 

 

Yeah sure, but this is supposed to happen how exactly?

[enigma 521]

Yeah sure, but this is supposed to happen how exactly?

 

 

 

Susceptible to Chaos. Warped by Chaos. Goes fanatical by Chaos. Goes stupid because of Chaos. Forgets how to fly from Chaos. Crashes into nacelle by Chaos.

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

Susceptible to Chaos. Warped by Chaos. Goes fanatical by Chaos. Goes stupid because of Chaos. Forgets how to fly from Chaos. Crashes into nacelle by Chaos.

 

 

 

When, how and why would any of this actually happen?

 

Or am I too srious and missing some sarcasm about typical Chaos wankery?

 

 

 

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[enigma 521]

When, how and why would any of this actually happen?

 

Or am I too srious and missing some sarcasm about typical Chaos wankery?

 

 

 

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Well it could if they were traveling inside the Immaterium aka Warp. They do not have any Geller force fields to protect themselves against Chaos. Also I was having fun with you.