Evidence show Borg cube handle all Star Destroyer Empire send up against them.

[Jason 27]

One example Star War fan use to claim that a Star Destroyer can easily take out a Borg cube is the fact special 8472 destroys a planet they claim about the size of Earth. However no cannon evidence either confirms or denied that planet was Earth size planet. With fact super Earth in theory could ten time massive our planet and not gas giant. Here a link to back point http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/super_earths.html

[enigma 521]

Your mother should be arrested for violating the Geneva Convention. It is illegal to unleash biological or chemical weapons. Turn yourself in to the nearest police station and have yourself declared as hazardous material.

[Questor 501]

It could also have been a planet the size of mercury.

 

 

 

Hell, we could try and compute the size based on redshift of the stars around it. Does anyone want me to tell them what the mass is of the planet based on the gravitational effects?

 

 

 

....ANYBODY?

[Praeothmin 532]

It could also have been a planet the size of mercury.

 

 

 

Hell, we could try and compute the size based on redshift of the stars around it. Does anyone want me to tell them what the mass is of the planet based on the gravitational effects?

 

 

 

....ANYBODY?

 

 

 

After careful analysis, the mass was more then 1 gram...

 

 

 

As for the subject of the thread, it depends.

 

If they send 1 ISD after the other, then yes, the first Borg cube they encounter will indeed destroy the ISDs.

 

If they send 10 ISDs in the first encounter, then the cube is fucked, but it will be able to send information about the weapons, so the second cube is fucked, but toughs it out longer, so is the third cube, but then cube 4 takes care of the ISDs in a long battle, until the E-E arrives and helps them out.

 

then they send the DS 2 towards Earth and destroy it...

[enigma 521]

After careful analysis, the mass was more then 1 gram...

 

 

 

As for the subject of the thread, it depends.

 

If they send 1 ISD after the other, then yes, the first Borg cube they encounter will indeed destroy the ISDs.

 

If they send 10 ISDs in the first encounter, then the cube is fucked, but it will be able to send information about the weapons, so the second cube is fucked, but toughs it out longer, so is the third cube, but then cube 4 takes care of the ISDs in a long battle, until the E-E arrives and helps them out.

 

then they send the DS 2 towards Earth and destroy it...

 

 

 

Except what do we know of the Cube power generation? We know the ISD's power output and they can devote most of it to weapons and shielding but what about the Cubes? Can they match it or exceed it? If not then the ISDs have the Borg by the ..... well, cubes.

[Praeothmin 532]

Well, I'm using the assumption that an ISD and E-E are evenly matched, so since the E-E could not, without Picard at the helm, destroy a cube by itself, once the Borg have adapted to the ISD's weapons, then it's by by ISD...

[enigma 521]

Well, I'm using the assumption that an ISD and E-E are evenly matched, so since the E-E could not, without Picard at the helm, destroy a cube by itself, once the Borg have adapted to the ISD's weapons, then it's by by ISD...

 

 

 

The thing is that has the Borg ever adapted to non-frequency based weaponry? Their weapons along with just about everyone else is frequency based (I don't know about disruptors).

 

 

 

Even if they can adapt to the turbolaser technology, that still does not mean they can withstand the amount of firepower put out at the Cube. If you say that the Cubes would be immune then we are entering the "Lasers would not get past the deflector shields" fallacy.

[Khas 12,158]

Out of curiosity, where was it shown that lasers could get past deflector shields? The only instance I can think of that you could be talking about was in "Q Who?", when the Borg cutting laser cut that section out of the E-D's saucer section, but even then, the Borg had already knocked down the E-D's shields.

[Praeothmin 532]

The thing is that has the Borg ever adapted to non-frequency based weaponry? Their weapons along with just about everyone else is frequency based (I don't know about disruptors).

 

 

 

Even if they can adapt to the turbolaser technology, that still does not mean they can withstand the amount of firepower put out at the Cube. If you say that the Cubes would be immune then we are entering the "Lasers would not get past the deflector shields" fallacy.

 

 

 

Enigma, any type of energy that is transmitted has a "frequency", thus Turbolaser do have a frequency, and if the Borg can adapt to frequency-based weapons, they can adapt to Turbolasers...

 

 

 

As for the amount of Firepower, we're getting down to, again, the comparative firpower of the two universes.

 

I've said for a long time that I felt they were comparable (re-read all the firepower threads if you wish), so if the Borg can withstand Federation firepower, they can do the same with SW firepower...

[Jason 27]

Questor see for yourself wish.If wish see that planet that speical 8472 blow to space dust watch this Vidoe form 23 secounds to about to 54 secounds.

 

I think planet super Earth but that just my view.

 

 

 

[enigma 521]

So how many GHz does the turbolaser frequency range at? Before you reply watch Generations, it shows the E-Ds shield frequency in which the Duras sisters used to calibrate their weapons to. Also phasers are calibrated so that they are in sync with the shields so that they can go through.

 

 

 

Turbolasers do not work in the same principle.

 

 

 

That is besides the point. The point is that we know the ISD's power generation and that they can devote almost all into weapons (I think that is for a last ditch effort, in desperation because doing so using up almost all of the power into weapons consumes their fuel supply in a very fast rate.) but can the Borg be able to absorb it all even if they can adapt to it? If they can't match watt for watt with an ISD then the Cube is fucked.

 

 

 

For example, you may be able to stand up to a feather but what about a ton of feathers? Would you still be able to withstand a ton of feathers hitting you?

[enigma 521]

Out of curiosity, where was it shown that lasers could get past deflector shields? The only instance I can think of that you could be talking about was in "Q Who?", when the Borg cutting laser cut that section out of the E-D's saucer section, but even then, the Borg had already knocked down the E-D's shields.

 

 

 

They may have knocked down the shields bu not the navigational deflectors. But the Cube cut through the ship just fine.

 

 

 

 

 

The quote was used when the E-D was taken over by some alien and they were attacked by some weak ass alien ships. Their lasers posed no trouble to the E-D to the point that Worf said that the lasers would not get past their navigational deflectors. Many Trekkies (not all)took that quote as to say that the Fed ships were immune to all lasers and the more rabid claimed that it included turbolasers.

[Questor 501]

Enigma, any type of energy that is transmitted has a "frequency", thus Turbolaser do have a frequency, and if the Borg can adapt to frequency-based weapons, they can adapt to Turbolasers...

 

 

 

Nope...

 

 

 

If I punch you in the face, I'm transmitting energy, but there's no frequency unless I do it again.

 

 

 

I think you mean: "Any type of electromagnetic or sonic energy that is transmitted has a "frequency."

 

 

 

EDIT: Enigma, you idiot, why'd you conceed they have a frequency? That's playing to their strength. Demand THEY prove that turbolasers work by transmitting light.

[Questor 501]

Out of curiosity, where was it shown that lasers could get past deflector shields? The only instance I can think of that you could be talking about was in "Q Who?", when the Borg cutting laser cut that section out of the E-D's saucer section, but even then, the Borg had already knocked down the E-D's shields.

 

 

 

It's a tech level fallacy and a no limits fallacy.

 

 

 

The assumptiont that a laser can't penetrate the shields fails because if I pump enough energy into it I can get anything to penetrate a shield.

 

 

 

It comes from a badly written episode - you know the one. It also comes from the simplistic assumption that one piece of technology being more advanced than another makes the first piece automatically invincible against the second, which is an attractive shorthand, but you have to understand the why to really play with it.

 

 

 

If you want a demonstration of this, I'd suggest you walk into a broadsword fight wearing a suit of kevlar. Or you could look at what a 16" shell will do to a modern ship.

[Khas 12,158]

Okay, I see your point.

[Questor 501]

Okay, I see your point.

 

 

 

Darn, I was hoping to be able to win the funniest Youtube video award when you tried the broadsword one.

[Tyralak 12,068]

This is a massive pet peeve of mine. I've been stewing about this all day, but wanted to wait until I got home to type out a proper response. ALL ELECTROMAGNETIC/SONIC ENERGY HAS FREQUENCY! This is basic Jr. High science, people! I've been in the communications industry for 8 years. I'm a radio and satellite geek. Let me put it this way, I used to have Nikola Tesla as wallpaper on my PC. When I hear this particular line of argument I think I begin to understand how Questor feels when talking to Jason. Turbolasers can only be 1 of 4 kinds of weapons. Sonic, Thermal, Kinetic or Electromagnetic.

 

 

 

Sonic: We can immediately rule this out, because well, if I have to explain it to you, you should probably go back to second grade.

 

 

 

Thermal: There was a school of thought among Warsies some years back that Turbolasers were a plasma based weapon which inflicted primarily thermal damage on targets. We have no proof one way or the other that the Borg can adapt to thermal attacks, so "Ha ha! Wars wins!" Mike Wong did an excellent job of refuting this theory here.

 

 

 

Kinetic: Probably the most ridiculous idea, second only to Sonic. The idea that Turbolaser bolts damaged their target using kinetic energy. (Think giant starship mounted trébuchet.) And since we all know that the Borg don't adapt to kinetic impacts, "Ha! Ha! Wars wins!" (Of course, this has only been shown to be the case with drones, not with ships.) Again, if you can't see why this is a stupid theory, then you need help.

 

 

 

Electromagnetic: This is the only conclusion that makes a lick of sense. They are some sort of electromagnetic weapon. Exactly WHAT kind, is a matter of debate. In the tech manuals, they are sometimes referred to as "particle weapons". It's hard to be more vague than that, but it points us in the right direction. Thus, as an electromagnetic weapon THEY FUNCTION AT A FREQUENCY! What frequency, and how it works? Who the fuck knows.

 

 

 

Now, on to the Borg adapting to it. Obviously anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that infinite adaptability is stupid. There is a point somewhere along the line that the shields fail. There is always a certain amount of bleed through. What amount? Will it be sufficient to destroy the Cubes before they can destroy/assimilate the ISD fleet? Before they communicate with the rest of the Collective and develop further countermeasures? Are Turbolaser bolts created so crudely that their frequency isn't exact and varies enough to make adaptation difficult? That's where the debate really is. But for the love of God, stop with this "Turbolasers aren't frequency-based" horseshit!

[Questor 501]

My one issue with Tyralak's post, (and I do agree electromagnetic is the most likely option out of known physics) is that Turbolasers, like phasers, do not exhibit the one KEY property of electromagnetic weapons.

 

 

 

They are not speed of light.

 

 

 

I'm far more inclined to believe that there is some kind of particle involved in both for this reason.

 

 

 

The simple fact of the matter is that we have absolutely zero idea how either set of weapons work. From an understanding standpoint, torpedoes and missiles are relatively simple analogues of what we have. Understanding energy weapons in either universe makes my skin crawl because of the numerous issues with physics.

 

 

 

Here's the way I sum up:

 

 

 

Turbolasers work by: I've got nothing

 

 

 

They have these properties:

 

FAR slower than light

 

Highly variable damage yields

 

Power SEEMS to be proportional to emmiter size

 

Flak bursts

 

can be defended against by ray shields

 

Seem to have an explosive/kinetic damage when damage is onserved at all

 

(did I miss anything? I'm tired)

 

 

 

Phasers work by: I've got nothing

 

 

 

They have these properties:

 

Slower than light

 

Frequency tunable (whatever that means)

 

Can be set to many different settings. Emmiter size does not seem to determine maximum setting

 

most are continuous beams, but pulse phasers exist (do pulse phasers operate on frequency as well? - Unknown)

 

Damage type seems to be int the thermal/explosive level for ship weapons and the kenetic/other level for handheld, but can change depending on "settings" and target.

 

 

 

Unlike many others who've come before me, I decline to propose a mechanism, and simply try and work with the observable evidence. Were it not for the MANY times phasers were stated to have a frequency, I would not have assumed they would from the other properties of the weapon. Were it not for the MANY times that frequency has been the reason borg are able to adapt to phasers, I would not assume that frequency was how they do that, either. My guesses would generally have been energy storage/redirection combined with some kind of shield (I.E. exactly what we see on screen)

 

 

 

So my reasoning for why the borg MIGHT not be able to adapt to turbo lasers is simple. They seem to adapt primarily to frequency based weapons (even if we have no idea what the method for the frequency base is). The observable evidence does not support a frequency base for turbolasers (or for phasers, but I have to assume that Geordi and Data were not making stuff up all those times, as much as it actually HURTS me.) Without dialog or descriptive evidence that turbolasers are frequency based, I come down on the side of "can't adapt to them." I acknowledge that my method is not the only way to approach the problem, but it is the one that makes the most sense to me and avoids the gigantic speed of light issue.

[Questor 501]

To sum up:

 

 

 

If it weren't for some of the stupidest technobabble in the history of technobabble becoming a meme in Star Trek, I suspect one of the biggest arguments in versus would not even be an issue. I know it wouldn't be for me.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Meh, If you go by the near universal EU assumption that TL are lightspeed weapons, simplifies things a bit. But thats a hairsbreadth away from accepting ICS as canon

[Questor 501]

Meh, If you go by the near universal EU assumption that TL are lightspeed weapons, simplifies things a bit.

 

 

 

 

BURN THE WITCH!!!!!

[Praeothmin 532]

Nope...

 

 

 

If I punch you in the face, I'm transmitting energy, but there's no frequency unless I do it again.

 

 

 

I think you mean: "Any type of electromagnetic or sonic energy that is transmitted has a "frequency."

 

 

 

Yup, I assumed since we were talking about energy weapons, everyone would catch that I was talking about energy transmissions...

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Enigma, you idiot, why'd you conceed they have a frequency? That's playing to their strength. Demand THEY prove that turbolasers work by transmitting light.

 

 

 

Actually, what are Trubolasers?

 

If they are a plasma weapon, then they radiate electromagnetic energy, thus they have a frequency...

 

If they are a beam weapon with a by-product of decaying particles radiating light, then again, they have a frequency...

 

It really doesn't matter what type of energy weapon Turbolasers are, if they are energy based, as all documentation suggests, they have a frequency, and the Borg can adapt...

 

 

 

 

 

And Khas, I have to agree with the others here, it's not just a question of the type of weapon, but also the power output.

 

Use the real world example of surge protectors as an analogy for Borg adaptation:

 

They will protect your circuit up to a certain amount of voltage, but anything beyond their capacity, and your circuit fries...

 

 

 

So we are once again down to the firepower capacity, which I will certainly not go over that again...

[enigma 521]

But the major point of it all is that can the Borg absorb all that energy? Can the Cubes pump equal or more energy into their shielding to absorb the TLs?

[enigma 521]

Nope...

 

 

 

If I punch you in the face, I'm transmitting energy, but there's no frequency unless I do it again.

 

 

 

I think you mean: "Any type of electromagnetic or sonic energy that is transmitted has a "frequency."

 

 

 

EDIT: Enigma, you idiot, why'd you conceed they have a frequency? That's playing to their strength. Demand THEY prove that turbolasers work by transmitting light.

 

 

 

I have not conceded but it is kind of moot. Even if the Borg could adapt to the turbolaser technology, the point is that have they shown to be able to generate the same if not greater power generation of that of an ISD? On screen evidence shows that it doesn't. So even if they can adapt to the TLs they would not be able to handle that much firepower hitting it. Example would be First Contact. The Borg adapted to phasers and torpedoes but that didn't stop the Federation from actually damaging and eventually destroying the Cube.

[Praeothmin 532]

This is a massive pet peeve of mine. I've been stewing about this all day, but wanted to wait until I got home to type out a proper response. ALL ELECTROMAGNETIC/SONIC ENERGY HAS FREQUENCY! This is basic Jr. High science, people! I've been in the communications industry for 8 years. I'm a radio and satellite geek. Let me put it this way, I used to have Nikola Tesla as wallpaper on my PC. When I hear this particular line of argument I think I begin to understand how Questor feels when talking to Jason. Turbolasers can only be 1 of 4 kinds of weapons. Sonic, Thermal, Kinetic or Electromagnetic.

 

 

 

Sonic: We can immediately rule this out, because well, if I have to explain it to you, you should probably go back to second grade.

 

 

 

Thermal: There was a school of thought among Warsies some years back that Turbolasers were a plasma based weapon which inflicted primarily thermal damage on targets. We have no proof one way or the other that the Borg can adapt to thermal attacks, so "Ha ha! Wars wins!" Mike Wong did an excellent job of refuting this theory here.

 

 

 

Kinetic: Probably the most ridiculous idea, second only to Sonic. The idea that Turbolaser bolts damaged their target using kinetic energy. (Think giant starship mounted trébuchet.) And since we all know that the Borg don't adapt to kinetic impacts, "Ha! Ha! Wars wins!" (Of course, this has only been shown to be the case with drones, not with ships.) Again, if you can't see why this is a stupid theory, then you need help.

 

 

 

Electromagnetic: This is the only conclusion that makes a lick of sense. They are some sort of electromagnetic weapon. Exactly WHAT kind, is a matter of debate. In the tech manuals, they are sometimes referred to as "particle weapons". It's hard to be more vague than that, but it points us in the right direction. Thus, as an electromagnetic weapon THEY FUNCTION AT A FREQUENCY! What frequency, and how it works? Who the fuck knows.

 

 

 

Now, on to the Borg adapting to it. Obviously anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows that infinite adaptability is stupid. There is a point somewhere along the line that the shields fail. There is always a certain amount of bleed through. What amount? Will it be sufficient to destroy the Cubes before they can destroy/assimilate the ISD fleet? Before they communicate with the rest of the Collective and develop further countermeasures? Are Turbolaser bolts created so crudely that their frequency isn't exact and varies enough to make adaptation difficult? That's where the debate really is. But for the love of God, stop with this "Turbolasers aren't frequency-based" horseshit!

 

 

 

And how would Thermal weapons do damage?

 

By through heat...

 

What is heat?

 

Radiated Thermal Energy...

 

That's right, another radiation type, so another frequency...