ISD curbstomps the Enterprise

[Airlocke 12,014]

First of all, the Enterprise IS NOT a Nebula Class ship. This means that standard firing range will likely not be the same. Second point, this still says nothing about the current situation. Give information from the episode in question, you know, because then the information you give will actually be relevant.

 

 

 

Watched the Best of Both worlds last night. Towards the end of the episode, after the rescue team failed to recover Picard, Riker tells Worf to power up the deflector dish and Crusher to bring the Enterprise to 40, 000 kms, which would be a safe distance to fire with the added power of the deflector dish. Maybe this can help in any calculations to be done? (Can't do them myself, Comm major).

[enigma 521]

First of all, the Enterprise IS NOT a Nebula Class ship. This means that standard firing range will likely not be the same. Second point, this still says nothing about the current situation. Give information from the episode in question, you know, because then the information you give will actually be relevant.

 

 

 

Though I dispute the 150 to 190,000km range but the saucer section of both ship classes are identical. It is the drive section that is different.

 

so they'd both would have similar firing range unless of course the Nebula cannot put in as much energy into their phaser banks as the Galaxy.

[Kirk's Ripped Shirt 0]

Hi I watched that clip and I noticed that there is an Excelsior-class ship that has half of its saucer section vaporized instantly. I don't know how to translate that into meaningful numbers but it would suggest to me a powerful weapon.

[Jason 27]

Hull of a Galaxy class starship can withstand a little more then twelve-thousand degrees C according to Star terk (TNG: "Descent, Part II")

 

 

 

I own movie but I do not know how to download it to this page. If you can tell me how to I will do so.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Watched the Best of Both worlds last night. Towards the end of the episode, after the rescue team failed to recover Picard, Riker tells Worf to power up the deflector dish and Crusher to bring the Enterprise to 40, 000 kms, which would be a safe distance to fire with the added power of the deflector dish. Maybe this can help in any calculations to be done? (Can't do them myself, Comm major).

 

 

 

 

 

Though I dispute the 150 to 190,000km range but the saucer section of both ship classes are identical. It is the drive section that is different.

 

so they'd both would have similar firing range unless of course the Nebula cannot put in as much energy into their phaser banks as the Galaxy.

 

 

 

Look at the bold, that is all that is relevant to this thread. The enhanced phaser beam was safe to be fired from 40, 000 kms, which is far closer than any previous numbers Jason has put forth. Also, not that it was ENTIRELY SAFE to be fired from that distance, which means that the blast's maximum blast radius has to be shorter than this, thus far reducing its supposed yield. I would say that Jason's does not have much steam left.

[Jason 27]

Hull of a Galaxy class starship can withstand a little more then twelve-thousand degrees C according to Star trek (TNG: "Descent, Part II") This means 12,010 degree Celsius to destroy USS Enterprise D. Lets say 30,000 Km is suicide range for us main defector dish a weapon on a Galaxy class starships. Means the Galaxy class starship was hitting that Borg cube in star trek Best World Part 2 with more then 720,000 degree Celsius of heat. I am not even count the shields by the way so it was most likely more. I do not think A ISD can take that kind bang for long.

[Praeothmin 532]

Hull of a Galaxy class starship can withstand a little more then twelve-thousand degrees C according to Star trek (TNG: "Descent, Part II") This means 12,010 degree Celsius to destroy USS Enterprise D. Lets say 30,000 Km is suicide range for us main defector dish a weapon on a Galaxy class starships. Means the Galaxy class starship was hitting that Borg cube in star trek Best World Part 2 with more then 720,000 degree Celsius of heat. I am not even count the shields by the way so it was most likely more. I do not think A ISD can take that kind bang for long.

 

 

 

Ok, you lost me here...

 

How the heck do you get a value of 720 000 degrees Celcius based on both events?

[Jason 27]

Check out nuclear bomb blast it lose about half it every 2 miles. 30,000 kms is about 18,645 miles. Times it by two then times it by 720,000 and you got 4,428,000 degree Celsius the real amount heat the USS Enterprise D hit that burg cube with.. If accurse 30,000 km is suicide with the USS Enterprise D using her main defector dish as a weapon with her shields up. I do not think a star destroyer it could withstand that kind of heat.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Check out nuclear bomb blast it lose about half it every 2 miles. 30,000 kms is about 18,645 miles. Times it by two then times it by 720,000 and you got 4,428,000 degree Celsius the real amount heat the USS Enterprise D hit that burg cube with.. If accurse 30,000 km is suicide with the USS Enterprise D using her main defector dish as a weapon with her shields up. I do not think a star destroyer it could withstand that kind of heat.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

I'm dumbfounded. H-...

 

 

 

How in the hell is that a valid reference point?

[Praeothmin 532]

Check out nuclear bomb blast it lose about half it every 2 miles. 30,000 kms is about 18,645 miles. Times it by two then times it by 720,000 and you got 4,428,000 degree Celsius the real amount heat the USS Enterprise D hit that burg cube with.. If accurse 30,000 km is suicide with the USS Enterprise D using her main defector dish as a weapon with her shields up. I do not think a star destroyer it could withstand that kind of heat.

 

 

 

Where the hell does your 720 000 degrees Celcius value come from???

[Jason 27]

I most made error forgive me.

 

To find out how power main defector dish of Galaxy class starships is. First we most the amount heat takes destroy hull that is a little over 12,000. We could sure that that if USS Enterprise D was going to fire main defector dish it would be destroys if firing at 30,000km. Km is equal to US mile equal to 1.609347 km. This means that USS Enterprise D if firing at about 18,641 miles away from the Borg cube it would be destroyed. Now have to times 18,641 by 12,000. We got time this number 223, 9200 by two to got amount energy that hit Borg cub because for each mile father away the explosive it is twice as weak. We got 44,738,400 degree C more then I think even Star destroyer could withstand.

[enigma 521]

I most made error forgive me.

 

To find out how power main defector dish of Galaxy class starships is. First we most the amount heat takes destroy hull that is a little over 12,000. We could sure that that if USS Enterprise D was going to fire main defector dish it would be destroys if firing at 30,000km. Km is equal to US mile equal to 1.609347 km. This means that USS Enterprise D if firing at about 18,641 miles away from the Borg cube it would be destroyed. Now have to times 18,641 by 12,000. We got time this number 223, 9200 by two to got amount energy that hit Borg cub because for each mile father away the explosive it is twice as weak. We got 44,738,400 degree C more then I think even Star destroyer could withstand.

 

 

 

Wouldn't the act of using the deflector cause the E-D to melt almost instantly?

[Tyralak 12,068]

Wouldn't the act of using the deflector cause the E-D to melt almost instantly?

 

 

 

No more so than a Turbolaser bolt exiting the firing chamber would make the Turbolaser turret melt.

[enigma 521]

No more so than a Turbolaser bolt exiting the firing chamber would make the Turbolaser turret melt.

 

 

 

Why would you say that since a turbolaser is designed that way whereas the deflector wasn't designed as a weapon? If the Ent can withstand up to 12,000 degree temp but the deflector emits over 44 million, wouldn't that liquify the Ent?

[Praeothmin 532]

Why would you say that since a turbolaser is designed that way whereas the deflector wasn't designed as a weapon? If the Ent can withstand up to 12,000 degree temp but the deflector emits over 44 million, wouldn't that liquify the Ent?

 

 

 

No, because the "Technobabblium" used in making the Deflector will protect it...

 

 

 

Seriously though, I agree that if the Deflector had fired that much energy at the Borg cube, it would have most likely melted away (it and eveything clode to it), and that alone could have destroyed the E-D, safe distance from the Cube or not...

 

 

 

But what Tyralak was saying, Enigma, is that this is the same type of absurd reasoning that leads people to claim Petatons for Turbolasers, when an unshielded SSD can be damaged by a crashing A-Wing, or when fighter-grade weaponry (supposedly in the Kiloton range) are a threat to Capital-Ships...

[Jason 27]

We do not even known how the defector dish works on USS Enterprise D? So possible energy could be control in a way that would allow it to be a lot cooler when firing then when it hits it target. Borg may have found some way handle that kind of weapon as will.

[Questor 501]

We do not even known how the defector dish works on USS Enterprise D? So possible energy could be control in a way that would allow it to be a lot cooler when firing then when it hits it target. Borg may have found some way handle that kind of weapon as will.

 

 

 

Wait... what?

 

 

 

Unless we are postulating that physics work differently, in which case we can just pack up and go home, as any kind of numbers based discussion is pointless, there will be some inefficiency. At the levels we are talking about, ANY inefficiency will have to be dealt with somehow.

 

 

 

If you are suggesting that the beam becomes more energetic as it travels from the ship, I would kindly ask you to provide a mechanism by which that happens. Extraordinary claims and all that...

[Jason 27]

I am not suggesting that at all about the main defector dish. What I am suggesting when main defector dish beam hits it target that the amount heat 4,428,000 degree Celsius it give off. Fact when using the main defector dish as a weapon they need to evacuate the entire forward half of the secondary hull and the lower three decks of the saucer because radicals danger. The energy levels have to give few seconds to build up before it can be fire .A galaxy class starship defector dish may well be able to take many times heat levels of Galaxy class starship hull.

[Questor 501]

I am not suggesting that at all about the main defector dish. What I am suggesting when main defector dish beam hits it target that the amount heat 4,428,000 degree Celsius it give off.

 

 

 

Where are you getting this number?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fact when using the main defector dish as a weapon they need to evacuate the entire forward half of the secondary hull and the lower three decks of the saucer because radicals danger. The energy levels have to give few seconds to build up before it can be fire .A galaxy class starship defector dish may well be able to take many times heat levels of Galaxy class starship hull.

 

 

 

 

A) Heat is not the only factor.

 

 

 

No one that I can see is arguing anything about heat other than you. As far as I can tell, there is nothing to argue about because you have yet to provide a source for your numbers. You incorrectly applied the inverse square law, taking no account for the fact that a directed beam does not dissipate at the same rate as a spherical blast wave.

 

 

 

Also, where did you get the numbers for the amount of heat necessary to destroy a borg cube? Why are you assuming that the energy transfer mechanism is heat rather than either NDF or DET? Have you calculated the mass of the borg cube? Have you calculated the high end of power output by taking the full output of the E-D's reactor and multiplying over the period of time used to charge the beam?

 

 

 

Also, I seem to recall that the cube was not destroyed by this attack.

[Jason 27]

Hull of a Galaxy class starship can withstand a little more then twelve-thousand degrees C according to Star terk (TNG: "Descent, Part II") According to Star terk best both Worlds. IF the USS Enterpise D fire closer then 40,000 km the USS Enterpise D would destory by the blast. Because did how close USS Enterpise have to be to got damge. So known you do the math find out for yourself.

 

 

 

Here how I did it

 

read

 

Check out nuclear bomb blast it lose about half it every 2 miles. 30,000 kms is about 18,645 miles. Times it by two then times it by 720,000 and you got 4,428,000 degree Celsius the real amount heat the USS Enterprise D hit that burg cube with.. If accurse 30,000 km is suicide with the USS Enterprise D using her main defector dish as a weapon with her shields up. I do not think a star destroyer it could withstand that kind of heat.

 

If say I am wrong did the math yourself and show me.

[Questor 501]

Hull of a Galaxy class starship can withstand a little more then twelve-thousand degrees C according to Star terk (TNG: "Descent, Part II") According to Star terk best both Worlds. IF the USS Enterpise D fire closer then 40,000 km the USS Enterpise D would destory by the blast. Because did how close USS Enterpise have to be to got damge. So known you do the math find out for yourself.

 

 

 

STAR TREK: "Best of Both Worlds" - REV. 4/6/90 - ACT THREE 35.

 

 

 

51 CONTINUED:

 

 

 

GEORDI

 

If we can generate a concentrated

 

burst of energy with that same

 

frequency distribution... I mean

 

a lot more than anything our

 

phasers or photon torpedos could

 

provide...

 

 

 

RIKER

 

How do we do that?

 

 

 

WESLEY

 

The main deflector dish.

 

 

 

GEORDI

 

It's the only component of the

 

Enterprise designed to channel

 

that much power at controlled

 

frequencies.

 

 

 

SHELBY

 

Unfortunately, there is one slight

 

detail -- in the process, the

 

blast completely destroys the

 

Enterprise as well.

 

 

 

RIKER

 

(muses)

 

But if we could get far enough

 

away... increase the deflector

 

range...

 

 

 

SHELBY

 

(nods)

 

It could work. In the meantime,

 

we should retune all phasers,

 

including hand units, to the same

 

frequency.

 

 

 

RIKER

 

(acknowledges)

 

Proceed. I'll inform the

 

Captain...

 

 

 

SHELBY

 

There's one other recommendation

 

I'd like to make, Commander.

 

Separate the saucer section...

 

assign a skeleton crew to create

 

a diversion...

 

 

 

 

I assume you are referring to the line from Shelby. Thats an ambiguous line, at best. She could be referring to any kind of energy. I note that you completely ignored my question about why you are so sure that she is talking about heat energy. Especially as vacuum transmits heat energy very badly.

 

 

 

 

Here how I did it

 

read

 

 

I can, the difference is that I understand it. Do you?

 

 

 

Check out nuclear bomb blast it lose about half it every 2 miles.

 

 

 

It loses about half of what? Its thermal energy? And is that rule for in the atmosphere. Lets check out Glasstone's The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, 3rd Edition. Yup, it looks like its a standard spherical radiation pattern, so lets work the numbers.

 

 

 

What is your number for the surface area of the Enterprise D battle section? I'm going to assume that it takes up roughly a third the space occupied by a square of the same dimensions as the battle section.

 

 

 

According to the The INTERTUBES, the stardrive section is 306.1 m wide by 117.4 m tall. This gives the square an area of 35936.14 m², divide that by three and you get roughly 11978.713 m².

 

 

 

The surface area of the sphere with a radius of 4E7 m (using the number you cited above, rather than the one below) is about 2.01E11. The Enterprise, as we calculated above, represents 1.1978713E4/2.01E11 or 5.9595587E-8 of that, so it will receive 0.0000059595587% of the thermal energy emitted by the "blast"

 

 

 

Working backwards from your number of 4.428E6 degrees C (which is a nonsensical way to represent this energy anyway, but that is a different argument), the Enterprise receives 0.26 degrees heating, assuming a perfect heat transmission medium, which space is not.

 

 

 

Working forwards from 12000 degrees C, as you tried to do, you find that in order for the Enterprise to receive 12000 degrees C of heat from a point source 40000Km away in a perfect transmission medium, the point source needs to be emitting 2.013572E11 degrees of heat. There's just a small problem with that, as its well above the point at which your dealing with charged plasma.

 

 

 

 

 

30,000 kms is about 18,645 miles. Times it by two then times it by 720,000 and you got 4,428,000 degree Celsius the real amount heat the USS Enterprise D hit that burg cube with..

 

 

 

I guess what I was asking was why you are multiplying by two, and especially where you get 720,000. I am also not sure where you get 4.428e6

 

 

 

Working backwards:

 

 

 

4.428E6/7.2E5=6.15E0

 

6.15E0/2E0=3.075E0

 

 

 

Can you please show the equations you are using and define your variables? Your math is not working.

 

 

 

If accurse 30,000 km is suicide with the USS Enterprise D using her main defector dish as a weapon with her shields up. I do not think a star destroyer it could withstand that kind of heat.

 

If say I am wrong did the math yourself and show me.

 

 

 

 

I don't necessarily think you did the math wrong, I think you did the wrong math. I think you did math you got by googling and tried to compare it to a dissimilar situation without looking at alternative explanations. You assumed heat transfer, although that makes very little sense in a vacuum. You also assumed that because Riker orders the Enterprise to 40000 Km, then that must be suicide distance, even though that information is not provided in the dialog.

[Questor 501]

...does anybody else notice the irony in this?

 

 

 

Which part? The part where I'm making fun of him by doing what he did... Or the part where once again Star Trek TNG science dialog makes no sense?

 

 

 

If you are going to try to use this in vs. well ok, but the whole debate is pointless, as I've pointed out in other places. I use the debate in the same way I do puzzles, as mental exercise.

[Questor 501]

The part where Jason is arguing with Jason

 

 

 

I do that all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wait, you're not talking about the voices in my head...

[Jason 27]

I was saying from 30,000km was suidice for USS Enterpise not 40,000. If heat will not do it what else could USS Enterpise D destory it.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I was saying from 30,000km was suidice for USS Enterpise not 40,000. If heat will not do it what else could USS Enterpise D destory it.

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