Are ST ships as badly designed as SW ships?

[enigma 521]

You've got plenty of Trekkie Jasons here why not a Warsie one? lol

[Praeothmin 532]

Tyralak, I have to agree to some degree with Enigma here:

 

The fleet didn't stop firing on the Executor once her shield bridges were down, and we don't really know if other shields had been destroyed before, or if they failed at other locations at the same time.

 

I have no issues considering that a fleet of 30-ish ships all firing at the same time on the SSD probably weakened it.

 

After all, we've seen that even with shields up, SW vessels also seem to suffer damage bleedthrough (the MF, the fleet of ships in RotS, X-Wings in the trench attack getting damage from the first shot even though the shields still seem up, etc...)

[InvaderSkooj 1]

 

What mass destruction?

 

If the ships are in controlled flights in the atmosphere, how would that result in mass destruction?

The nuclear rockets ST ships use for propulsion.

 

To move Voyager's 700,000,000kg at 100m/s for 1 second not counting atmospheric drag(360km/h) requires 3.5TJ/s or almost 1KT/s then there's the utter lack of destruction from the impact

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You mean the same lack of mass destruction caused by the Invisible Hand's crash landing?

 

Because apart for some crushed landing strip, there doesn't seem to be any earth-shattering tremors or anything like it when it crashes.

 

Are you going to tell me SW ships also have mass lighetning now?

Moving much slower than voyager, unknown mass, possible use of repulsors or tractor beams, shields from the planet, since unlike voyager the invisible hand didnt crash in the middle of nowhere by itself. You'd think they have some sort of system to protect the capital of the republic from large falling objects

 

 

 

 

 

And the E-D's saucer crash had no Warp Core, no Nacelles, no Impulse engines to rely on, on thrusters, so no mass lightening.

And also not the entire ship either, the saucer was supposed to function as an escape vessel remember

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Their SIFs seem pretty strong from what we've seen, so they and the ship's structural strienght could be the only thing holding the ship together in an atmosphere...

Which I've never doubted, however that may not be so without SIF

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These aren't crashes you're mentioning, but only ships that were fired upon and then blew up.

 

The Odissey isn't even a good example, because it was hit many times while unshielded (weapons went right through the shields, like in Gen), before it got rammed by the bug.

 

And even then, it did not immediately explode.

 

The bug rammed it, exploded upon impact, and then, the Odissey went boom...

Unstable hypermatter was the point I was originally arguing against, merely a demonstration of why antimatter is bad, not that ST ships always explode when crased

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They are certainly not unheard off, but they are shitty at best, since an ISD with these huge frigging Sensor Domes/Shield Generators lost the MF once it got close to the tower...

And unlike TV no sensor in real life could do any better

 

The Tantive IV was firing at a ship a few km behind it, not really close,

still behind it

 

 

 

and the Rebel fleet, in case your memory of the movie is sketchy, detected the Imperial fleet once it borke off its attack on the DS, when they turned right towards the Imp fleet.

Fleet still turning, SW capships cant turn on a dime remember, you can still see fighters going by home ones viewport/screen when Ackbar say its a trap

 

They did not, at any time, detect them behind them...

They sure as hell weren't in front of them either, and Tantive IV unless you're trying to argue her gunners use the force

 

Although it could be (and I wouldn't argue this) that the reason they didn't detect them was because of the jamming coming from the DS...

Most likely. However the Tantive IV obviously was able to track and detect the Devastor, likewise rebel fighters were able to occassionally detect the TIEs behind them before they died in the trench run. I'm not saying they have flawless coverage, they are however able to detect hostile things behind them

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Except these shields dropped down pretty quickly once the order was given, and even if it did take the whole fleet's firepower to destroy them, we're talking about an SSD for crying out loud.

 

Of course it will take a lot more to destroy their shields then on an ISD...

A SSD involved in combat for some length of time before having an entire fleet focus on it, and neither is quantifiable

 

 

 

The globes on an ISD are still a very visible target which allows one to take out Shields and Sensors, and will be destroyed a lot easier then an SSD's...

 

By an unknown amount of energy, By the same token I can say crashing enough TIE bombers into a GCS or Vor'cha will destroy it. Or the SB favorite, 1 at sufficient velocity

[Praeothmin 532]

The nuclear rockets ST ships use for propulsion.

 

To move Voyager's 700,000,000kg at 100m/s for 1 second not counting atmospheric drag(360km/h) requires 3.5TJ/s or almost 1KT/s then there's the utter lack of destruction from the impact

 

 

 

Except that we know ST also has anti-grav plates, anti-grav "trolleys" to carry materials, artificial grav-plating, so it could also use anti-grav generators when in an atmosphere.

 

In addition to that, notice how no Impulse engine looks at all like any type of "rockets", as you call them?

 

They don't have that gaping hole that an ISD's engine has to propel the ship...

 

In fact, we don't know much about the way they operate, except that there was never mention of any mass-lightening that I'm aware of at impulse...

 

But I do agree that either the mass-lightening or anti-grav would both explain the lack of destruction standard "rockets" would produce...

 

 

 

 

 

Moving much slower than voyager, unknown mass, possible use of repulsors or tractor beams, shields from the planet, since unlike voyager the invisible hand didnt crash in the middle of nowhere by itself. You'd think they have some sort of system to protect the capital of the republic from large falling objects

 

 

 

I'll have to try and find Voyager's crash again, I don't remember much of its crashing speeds.

 

They were under the "planetary shields", and made no mention of them, so why should we assume they had any?

 

In fact, the only thing we saw them deploy, or even heard of, were those "firefighter" ships that escorted the "Invisible Hand" during its crash, doing their best to extinguish the flames...

 

 

 

 

 

And also not the entire ship either, the saucer was supposed to function as an escape vessel remember

 

 

 

 

And the saucer herself probably masses a bit less then half the ships' mass, so about 2.2 million metric tons...

 

Still massive, and still crashed with only thrusters as was mentioned in the movie...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which I've never doubted, however that may not be so without SIF

 

 

 

Which we have no proof off.

 

Even the unpowered BoP in ST IV wasn't crushed under its own mass, and we have no reason to assume that Starfleet vessels are any less rugged...

 

 

 

 

 

Unstable hypermatter was the point I was originally arguing against, merely a demonstration of why antimatter is bad, not that ST ships always explode when crased

 

 

 

Well, if the ships don't always explode when hit, then how can you say AM is bad an really unstable?

 

SW ship also explode violently when fired upon, and when crashed in, and yet you argue that Hypermatter is stable?

 

Pot-kettle-black, I say...

 

 

 

 

 

And unlike TV no sensor in real life could do any better

 

Yes, they would have seen the Falcon until it started going behind the tower, and only after that would have lost it.

 

But it would have been detected long enough for the officers on the ISD to consider the fact it was hiding behind the tower and to send in Ties to look for it...

 

And ST sensors are far, far better...

 

 

 

 

 

still behind it

 

 

 

But nowhere near a "blind spot" in the sensors, like the gaping one on the ISD...

 

I agree, it would be dumb to think that SW sensors cannot detect anything behind them, and clearly they can, but they do seem to suffer from hhuge blind spots, moreso on an ISD...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fleet still turning, SW capships cant turn on a dime remember, you can still see fighters going by home ones viewport/screen when Ackbar say its a trap

 

They sure as hell weren't in front of them either, and Tantive IV unless you're trying to argue her gunners use the force

 

Most likely. However the Tantive IV obviously was able to track and detect the Devastor, likewise rebel fighters were able to occassionally detect the TIEs behind them before they died in the trench run. I'm not saying they have flawless coverage, they are however able to detect hostile things behind them

 

 

 

I agree they can detect targets behind them, and I don't know why my point went from "The ISD cannot detect anything behind its tower" to "SW ships cannot detect anything behind them"...

 

And like I said, we can easily attribute Endor's failings to the jamming the DS was doing at the time...

 

 

 

But the point remains, an ISD has gaping holes in its sensor grid right behind it, so even if it had weapons that can fire right behind it they would be useless, unless fired visually, and then they'd still suffer from the bad marksmenship we're used to from SW.

 

But, again, we see no such weapons on any plans, and that huge tower blocks most of the fore weapons from even targetting anything behind the ISD.

 

 

 

The Rebels in the trench run still had to visually confirm that Ties were indeed on their tails, they were constantly looking over their shoulders to spot them.

 

The MF was able to come in unannounced and take the Ties by surprise, again demonstrating the weakness of SW sensors...

 

 

 

 

 

A SSD involved in combat for some length of time before having an entire fleet focus on it, and neither is quantifiable

 

 

 

 

Except for the article Enigma showed us that the armor on these globes is not very powerful.

 

But I've agreed for some time that the fleet firing at the SSD easily explains the failings of its shields.

 

What I've been saying all along is how big of a target these globes are...

 

 

 

 

 

By an unknown amount of energy, By the same token I can say crashing enough TIE bombers into a GCS or Vor'cha will destroy it. Or the SB favorite, 1 at sufficient velocity

 

 

 

Except that you can't, since we've seen that it takes many hits, and a ship many times bigger then a Tie crashing in the engineering section of a GCS to destroy it.

 

As for the Vorcha, again, we've seen it takes two 80-100 meter long vessels crashing into it to destroy it (after a long battle, just like your SSD).

 

Like I have said many times, the Globes are big targets, and concentrated fire on them will destroy them, moreso on an ISD then an SSD, but in now way have I ever said they would be easily destroyed...

[enigma 521]

Tyralak, I have to agree to some degree with Enigma here:

 

The fleet didn't stop firing on the Executor once her shield bridges were down, and we don't really know if other shields had been destroyed before, or if they failed at other locations at the same time.

 

I have no issues considering that a fleet of 30-ish ships all firing at the same time on the SSD probably weakened it.

 

After all, we've seen that even with shields up, SW vessels also seem to suffer damage bleedthrough (the MF, the fleet of ships in RotS, X-Wings in the trench attack getting damage from the first shot even though the shields still seem up, etc...)

 

 

 

 

 

SW ships' shielding are hull hugging (I think both types are but I may be wrong). So a strong enough hit while not penetrating the shields could cause some damage. This also happens with Trek ships too. We've seen countless times Trek ships' consoles explode even though the shields were still up. That is the risk of having hull hugging shielding. AFAIK, hull hugging to the point that they are only centimeters from the hull.

[enigma 521]

I'm going to throw you guys a bone to pick on the ISD but this does not mean that all SW ships are badly designed considering that there are myriads of ship designs compared to Trek ships.

 

 

 

The ISD has over 170,000 design flaws. BUT! Even then it is a formidable ship.

 

 

 

Now guys........ ATTACK!

[Khas 12,158]

So it can dish it out, but it can't take it?

[enigma 521]

So it can dish it out, but it can't take it?

 

 

 

It can. The design flaws does not necessarily make it the Pinto or the Gremlin of the Imperial Starfleet.

[Praeothmin 532]

I'm going to throw you guys a bone to pick on the ISD but this does not mean that all SW ships are badly designed considering that there are myriads of ship designs compared to Trek ships.

 

 

 

The ISD has over 170,000 design flaws. BUT! Even then it is a formidable ship.

 

 

 

That's the whole point of this thread, Enigma.

 

I don't think I've said anywhere that an ISD is a weak ship, my whole contention points are that SW ships are not designed better then ST ships...

 

And we've proven it.

 

And yes, just as in ST, SW has many designs, some of them even well designed ships (I think the Dreadnaught was well designed, no tower, guns on the top on turrets that could target behind it, etc..., the Nubian ships from Naboo, compact and low-profiled), and ST has them too (the Defiant, to name one).

 

And I will also agree that there are more SW ships designs then ST, as well there should be since the SW Empire covers a whole Galaxy...

 

I was just tired of hearing the same bullshit about how badly designed ST ships were from Warsies who seemed to think SW ships were the best designed in Sci-Fi...

[enigma 521]

The thing is that Trek ships are pretty much generic in design and have similar errors such as mentioned before the exploding consoles. This gives people especially Warsies the opinion that Trek ships are badly designed.

 

 

 

Even among different powers within the ST galaxy you'll find similar designs (thin neck relative to the rest of the ship, spindly pylons for the nacelles, etc...).

 

 

 

There should be large variation of ship design among Trek powers. Yes the SW galaxy has a wide array of ship designs but so should Trek even if they do not have a unified government. Races that have not seen each other before should not have ships with exposed warp nacelles.

 

 

 

On a side note, I find that the SW galaxy seems to teem with life yet in the ST galaxy is looks quiet. I'd love to see a bustling activity on and around earth. Shuttles coming in and out of earth towards or away from Starfleet ships and civilian cruise liners and freighters. Something that says LIFE!.

 

 

 

Rambling again..... damn provigil!

[Praeothmin 532]

The thing is that Trek ships are pretty much generic in design and have similar errors such as mentioned before the exploding consoles. This gives people especially Warsies the opinion that Trek ships are badly designed.

 

 

 

Even among different powers within the ST galaxy you'll find similar designs (thin neck relative to the rest of the ship, spindly pylons for the nacelles, etc...).

 

 

 

There should be large variation of ship design among Trek powers. Yes the SW galaxy has a wide array of ship designs but so should Trek even if they do not have a unified government. Races that have not seen each other before should not have ships with exposed warp nacelles.

 

 

 

On a side note, I find that the SW galaxy seems to teem with life yet in the ST galaxy is looks quiet. I'd love to see a bustling activity on and around earth. Shuttles coming in and out of earth towards or away from Starfleet ships and civilian cruise liners and freighters. Something that says LIFE!.

 

 

 

Rambling again..... damn provigil!

 

 

 

Yup, I agree up to a point.

 

Voyager showed us many different ST ship designs, but I agree all Fed ships share a similar design.

 

But when you look at the SW side of it, the main warships also share similar designs:

 

The Acclamators, the ISDs, Venators, Victories, Interdictors, SSDs...

 

 

 

Yet I agree that we do not, in ST, have ships like the Mon Calamari, Nebulons, Carrack-class cruisers, etc...

 

 

 

One thing though remains in both ST and SW:

 

Put the fucking Bridges inside the fucking ship, you God Damned morons...

 

Any fucking asshole able to aim will kill all your Senior staff in a fucking second once your shields are down...

[enigma 521]

Not just Feds. Romulans, Klingons, Dominion, etc... all have exposed neck ships and exposed and vulnerable (to various degrees) warp nacelles. The D'eridex (SP?) has a huge friggin gap in the center that screams "WEAK SPOT!". Klingons seem to enjoy ships with long necks and exposed nacelles.

 

 

 

Starfleet apparently didn't learn with the Sovereign. They made the damned nacelles very long, about two thirds the length of the stardrive and saucer section!

 

 

 

But when you look at the SW side of it, the main warships also share similar designs:

 

The Acclamators, the ISDs, Venators, Victories, Interdictors, SSDs...

 

 

 

For the most part those are all the same ship type? STAR DESTROYERS. They all share the same characteristics. Except the Acclamator. I don't think it is a SD.

[Praeothmin 532]

Not just Feds. Romulans, Klingons, Dominion, etc... all have exposed neck ships and exposed and vulnerable (to various degrees) warp nacelles. The D'eridex (SP?) has a huge friggin gap in the center that screams "WEAK SPOT!". Klingons seem to enjoy ships with long necks and exposed nacelles.

 

 

 

Starfleet apparently didn't learn with the Sovereign. They made the damned nacelles very long, about two thirds the length of the stardrive and saucer section!

 

 

 

Yes, I agree, all the races close to the Feds share the same damn design...

 

The only exception to this is the Breen ship, with no clear "Nacelles", but it still has a neck section...

 

I will agree the SW ships like the ISD "seem" more rugged because of their "compact" design, but they still suffer from many design "flaws"...

 

The Cardassian ships though only have that "thin" protion near the back, all the rest is pretty thick.

 

I'd say their ships are better designed then the Fed ships, and they should have been able to resist better to damage, but it isn't was was shown to us...

 

 

 

For the most part those are all the same ship type? STAR DESTROYERS. They all share the same characteristics. Except the Acclamator. I don't think it is a SD.

 

 

 

But it's built with the same "flaws" as the other ones...

[enigma 521]

The Cardie design still has one fatal flaw. It has a centralized weapons system. Take out that emitter and that ship is useless. At least UFP ships have multiple emitters.

[Praeothmin 532]

The Cardie design still has one fatal flaw. It has a centralized weapons system. Take out that emitter and that ship is useless. At least UFP ships have multiple emitters.

 

 

 

Yeah, that sucks...

[Questor 501]

Umm, guys?

 

 

 

Are we talking design flaws, or design tradeoffs?

 

 

 

The fact that a modern warship can probably not survive more than one ASM hit is not a design flaw but a tradeoff with the other desirable characteristic - it can float and move.

[Praeothmin 532]

Umm, guys?

 

 

 

Are we talking design flaws, or design tradeoffs?

 

 

 

The fact that a modern warship can probably not survive more than one ASM hit is not a design flaw but a tradeoff with the other desirable characteristic - it can float and move.

 

 

 

I guess both...

 

 

For example, your modern warship would suck donkey balls if it only had one weapon, and its center portion was one thin, elongated "spaghetti-like" structure that can be destroyed by a grenade...

 

Yeah, I'm exagerating a bit, but you get the picture...

[Questor 501]

I guess both...

 

 

For example, your modern warship would suck donkey balls if it only had one weapon, and its center portion was one thin, elongated "spaghetti-like" structure that can be destroyed by a grenade...

 

Yeah, I'm exagerating a bit, but you get the picture...

 

 

 

huh?

[Praeothmin 532]

huh?

 

 

 

Ooookaaayyy, maybe you don't...

 

If a modern warship was built like a cardassian ship, or like a big Catamaran with armor and weapons (Fed ships), they would not be looked upon as impressive Warships, would they not?

[enigma 521]

Imagine an aircraft carrier or destroyer with it's propulsion systems stuck out 50 to 100 feet from each side of the ship.

[Questor 501]

Ooookaaayyy, maybe you don't...

 

If a modern warship was built like a cardassian ship, or like a big Catamaran with armor and weapons (Fed ships), they would not be looked upon as impressive Warships, would they not?

 

 

 

I was huhing at the spaghetti comment.

 

 

 

Depending on the needs and capabilites, maybe they would. Perhaps that is the most efficient configuration, WRT the nacelles. Many races seem to use variants of it.

 

 

 

There could even be reasons for the neck.

[enigma 521]

I was huhing at the spaghetti comment.

 

 

 

Depending on the needs and capabilites, maybe they would. Perhaps that is the most efficient configuration, WRT the nacelles. Many races seem to use variants of it.

 

 

 

There could even be reasons for the neck.

 

 

 

To give them enough time to kiss their ass if the core blows?

[Jason 27]

IF you think about warp drive is trade off. Without it a starship go very far however with it thier is a risk of the Warp core blow up. That why wounder UFP design spacecafts defend Major solar systoms like Earth spacecaft did not have a warp drive and power all weapons systoms. Now that would make a tough UFP defance spacecaft.

[enigma 521]

Googedy moogedy Boo bah Bley?

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I'll have to try and find Voyager's crash again, I don't remember much of its crashing speeds. They were under the "planetary shields", and made no mention of them, so why should we assume they had any? In fact, the only thing we saw them deploy, or even heard of, were those "firefighter" ships that escorted the "Invisible Hand" during its crash, doing their best to extinguish the flames...

Point is the potential is there, unlike voyager where the ship was crippled and crashing on a barren snowball

And the saucer herself probably masses a bit less then half the ships' mass, so about 2.2 million metric tons... Still massive, and still crashed with only thrusters as was mentioned in the movie...

Still doesnt prove the entire ship could survive without all their toys

Which we have no proof off. Even the unpowered BoP in ST IV wasn't crushed under its own mass, and we have no reason to assume that Starfleet vessels are any less rugged...

Klingon designs arent as silly as UFP ones

Well, if the ships don't always explode when hit, then how can you say AM is bad an really unstable? SW ship also explode violently when fired upon, and when crashed in, and yet you argue that Hypermatter is stable? Pot-kettle-black, I say...

Dont actually remember them saying everything was powered by M/AM

Yes, they would have seen the Falcon until it started going behind the tower, and only after that would have lost it. But it would have been detected long enough for the officers on the ISD to consider the fact it was hiding behind the tower and to send in Ties to look for it... And ST sensors are far, far better...

You mean the same sensors that have problems tracking FTL objects, blind spots,allow ferengi hiding in craters to lay ambushes at close range, have lost track of ships in asteroid fields, been baffled by, radiation, magnetic poles, electrical storms, lagrange points, and nebulae. Yup clearly superior. By all means prove that they should have been able to figure out they were hiding, the bridge officers didnt know the MF hyperdrive was broken

But nowhere near a "blind spot" in the sensors, like the gaping one on the ISD... I agree, it would be dumb to think that SW sensors cannot detect anything behind them, and clearly they can, but they do seem to suffer from hhuge blind spots, moreso on an ISD...

Just big enough to lose ships in asteroid fields, and allow ferengi to hide in craters, and in lagrange points

But the point remains, an ISD has gaping holes in its sensor grid right behind it, so even if it had weapons that can fire right behind it they would be useless, unless fired visually, and then they'd still suffer from the bad marksmenship we're used to from SW. But, again, we see no such weapons on any plans, and that huge tower blocks most of the fore weapons from even targetting anything behind the ISD.

Requires much assumption. We know other ships can see behind them, and turrets can rotate, the ICS drawings are from the FRONT, Most the weapons on an ISD are too small to see anyway, and we've never seen anyone attack an ISD from the rear.

The Rebels in the trench run still had to visually confirm that Ties were indeed on their tails, they were constantly looking over their shoulders to spot them. The MF was able to come in unannounced and take the Ties by surprise, again demonstrating the weakness of SW sensors...

No worse than feddies getting ambushed by ferengi hiding in craters

Except for the article Enigma showed us that the armor on these globes is not very powerful. But I've agreed for some time that the fleet firing at the SSD easily explains the failings of its shields. What I've been saying all along is how big of a target these globes are...

Which is quite irrelevant since its impossible to know how much energy it takes to expose them

Except that you can't, since we've seen that it takes many hits, and a ship many times bigger then a Tie crashing in the engineering section of a GCS to destroy it.

Never said it'd take only one. Now a Nubian Royal Starship on the other hand

As for the Vorcha, again, we've seen it takes two 80-100 meter long vessels crashing into it to destroy it (after a long battle, just like your SSD).

Yup right at the beginning of the battle

Like I have said many times, the Globes are big targets, and concentrated fire on them will destroy them, moreso on an ISD then an SSD, but in now way have I ever said they would be easily destroyed...

And knock out shields to the bridge, In the meantime the ST ship could have been rammed by gods knows how many TIEs, and shot god knows how many times by TLs