Sometimes, you just can't fix stupid....

[Tyralak 12,068]

Here's the thread in question: Buried Cable

 

Now, to set the stage. A person started a thread asking for advice on installing a satellite dish with a particularly long cable run. Quite a few people joined in to give their opinions, as did I. First, let's start with the OP's post.

 

 

 

I need to install approx 320 lf of buried cable so I can receive HD signals (apparently 2 satellites) through Dish network. dish does not supply anything but RG6 but that will not work. Have heard that RG11 may work but on another forum, they recommended an FSJ4-75A Andrew Heliax. I would need two "conductors" first question is "is that what I need?" second is does that come with two conductors or do I need to buy 640 lf? and third, what about the connector from the cable to the existing "male" end at the junction box? Help please

 

 

 

After a few people gave their responses, I chimed in with this in response to another poster recommending RG11:

 

 

 

Exactly. RG11 would be the way to go with that distance. 3 lines. I would also recommend using an LA143 amp in a small junction box at the dish. By the time it gets to the house, your signal should be great.

 

 

 

 

 

 

They run about $68 from the manufacturer. Sonora - Products

 

You might be able to find them cheaper somewhere. Also, when dealing with this kind of distance and amplification, I would *HIGHLY* recommend finding someone with a Super Sat Buddy so you can read the Db levels. Make friends with a local installer, or hire one to help you. It's not a hard job with the proper tools, but without them it's a pain in the ass.

 

 

 

Then, after responding to another poster, this faggot stumbles in:

 

 

 

@ 2GHz, 200' of RG6 which is the maximum length recommended by Dish has the same losses as 400' of RG11. So, if everything is done just right, you should not have any problems with 320' of RG11 and you don't need any amplifiers or switches. In any case, have it done by professional people!

 

 

 

To which I replied:

 

 

 

Not really. Normal signal at the dish is usually between -29 and -32. Let's say, best case -29. At 2Ghz, losing 10Db every 100 feet, at 300 ft you would be at about -59 under perfect conditions, and with a direct run to the receiver. No ground blocks, diplexers, barrels, etc. -59 is uselessly low signal. If your receiver works at all, it won't work well.

 

 

 

upsss, the dancing faggot then vomited this bit of wisdom:

 

Not really what??? What are you disputing?

 

 

 

I should have known better than to attempt to use logic on this moron:

 

 

 

Your statement that a 320 ft run of RG11 with no amplification will work just fine. Look at the math. -60 is virtually inoperable. That's what you'd be dealing with at those distances. And it's unlikely it's a single tuner receiver, installed with no ground block. You will have to take into account the loss from ground blocks, diplexers, and any other connections between the dish and receiver. Also keep in mind that at some point it's going from RG11 to RG6, so you have to account for the loss in the run from the ground block and/or switch to the receiver.

 

 

 

And then, the moron speaks!

 

 

 

My original statement, "So, if everything is done just right, you should not have any problems with 320' of RG11 and you don't need any amplifiers or switches." is a conclusion base on some basic facts which you cannot dispute.

 

 

 

As far as your "math", you are off only by ~150% for the RG11 losses and the rest of your "numbers" must be as "accurate" too.

 

 

 

Yes, I was astounded by this caliber of idiot, but I trudged on:

 

 

 

Actually, I was only off by a little bit, which isn't bad for rough calculations at 2:30 in the morning. You sure seem to like the quote marks too. Let's go over this step by step, shall we? You might be interested in looking at the cable attenuation calculator found here: Coaxial Cable Attenuation Calculator

 

RG11 cable attenuates at 4.1 Db per 100 feet at 950 MHz, and at 6.6 Db per 100 feet at 2150 MHz. You ALWAYS build your system based on the part of the system with the most loss, so we go with the calculations at 2150 MHz. A normal reading at the dish for a DPP Triple, is about -31 Db. Assuming a direct run of 320 feet to the termination point (ground block, switch, diplexer) you now have a signal at 2150 MHz of -52.12 Db. This is best case based on proper fittings used, properly installed and torqued. It also assumes decent quality RG11. Remember, that at this point, you're already below the minimum signal the quality standards allow, which is -50. Now, you add the ground block. Assuming the fittings are done right, it's properly torqued and a decent quality ground block is used, the loss should be negligible. Let's now add a diplexer. (assuming this is a dual tuner) A Holland DPD2, which is an excellent quality diplexer has a signal loss on the satellite leg of 1.5 Db. From there, let's say the room is a 50 foot run from the diplexer. Assuming good quality RG6, you will have a loss of 4.85 Db. At last we get to the receiver, and the second diplexer. (or Triplexer) subtract another 1.5 Db. Your signal levels are now sitting at a whopping -59.97. If It's a single tuner, add 3 Db (removing the diplexers) for -56.97 Db. At -55 STB operation is intermittent at best. He would need, (at least) a 14Db amplifier like the one I showed in my previous post. Small bullet amps can work fine too, (They usually are 20Db) but if he's running 3 lines, he would be better off using an auto-leveling 3 port amp. The cost comes out the same, and they amplify more evenly. A 14 Db amplifier puts you at just about -46, which really is fine.

 

 

 

Now, we wait. I'm sure the wheels in his vacuum sealed skull are grinding away, devising a response. I'll report more as the battle progresses.

[Tyralak 12,068]

This guy just doesn't know when to quit! Here's round two!

 

 

 

 

A 4db difference (BTW it is db not Db) is not "off by a little bit", you are off by 150%!!! Have a nice day.

 

 

 

The stupid! It burns! Time to whack him with the stick of logic and reason.

 

 

 

You know what the best part of this is? Even with adjusting the calculations from my original estimates (which I admit I used from a previous post without double checking) with the correct ones, I'm STILL right, and you're STILL wrong. You claimed that if everything was done just right, you should be able to build a system including a 320' run of RG11 which functions properly without any sort of amplification. (Or switches, which is a strange comment considering they have nothing whatsoever to do with signal. They have to do with the ability to add more receivers.) I proved, by describing a correctly built system, with 'everything done just right' that the signal at end of line was unacceptable. Do you have any proof to offer that your position is correct? Other than laughably incorrect statements such as this:

 

 

 

@ 2GHz, 200' of RG6 which is the maximum length recommended by Dish has the same losses as 400' of RG11.

 

 

 

200' of RG6 loses 19.38 dB. 400' of RG11 loses 26.4 dB. A correct statement would be "200' of RG6 cable has the same signal loss as 294' of RG11.

 

 

 

(BTW it is db not Db)

 

 

 

Actually, it's dB. Since you're nitpicking about capitalization instead of providing proof to back up your argument, I have one thing to say. Concession accepted.

[enigma 521]

Are you sure he isn't related to Jason?

[Tyralak 12,068]

He might be, although the spelling is better. It appears he gave up. If he persisted, I'm afraid I would have to get out my spectrum analyzer and show him what -31 looks like, then show him what -59 looks like and how fucking close to the noise floor it is.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Lol. What a dumbass. I say this, by the way, not knowing what the hell any of that means. Just so you know. I'll just assume Ty is right here.

[enigma 521]

He might be, although the spelling is better. It appears he gave up. If he persisted, I'm afraid I would have to get out my spectrum analyzer and show him what -31 looks like, then show him what -59 looks like and how fucking close to the noise floor it is.

 

 

 

He might still be related but is considered the black sheep of the family. One who actually concedes a point.

[A.Ron.Hubbard 0]

You know, this raises an interesting question that I pondered with Kynes once; Does ASVS turn people into argumentative assholes or does it just attract those types? I think it's a personality type. Most people see stupid and step over it like a pile of dog poo. We like to break the shit crust and stir it up.

[Tyralak 12,068]

LOFL! Quote of the week!

 

 

[enigma 521]

You know, this raises an interesting question that I pondered with Kynes once; Does ASVS turn people into argumentative assholes or does it just attract those types? I think it's a personality type. Most people see stupid and step over it like a pile of dog poo. We like to break the shit crust and stir it up.

 

 

 

It makes sense since from his ASVS days, Kynes is now a lawyer.

[A.Ron.Hubbard 0]

And has lost none of his piss nor vinegar.

[Khas 12,158]

So, in other words, he's the same bitter, cynical bastard he was back then?

[Praeothmin 532]

Lol. What a dumbass. I say this, by the way, not knowing what the hell any of that means. Just so you know. I'll just assume Ty is right here.

 

 

 

He is, as building optical networks is pretty much the same.

 

Cable, just like fiber, will have attenuation over distance, plus any part you put in will add loss as well, no matter how good.

 

When you build a network, or line connection, always calculate your "loss budget" from the worst scenario, so you always get great results...