Praeothmin 532 Posted December 1, 2010 Debating about SW vs ST speeds in the vs thread, I wanted to know what you guys thought was a good size estimate for the SW Galaxy. We've had this discussion at SFJ, and while the Essential guide to the galaxy (I believe it is this book) states it is 120 000 LY across, three higher G-Canon sources and all the maps in the EU point to a much smaller Galaxy... -The ANH novel specifically states that the SW galaxy is a modest-sized one. Our very own Milky Way, at around 100 000 LY across, contains from 100 to 400 Billion stars, is not a modest-sized galaxy. It is in fact a large galaxy. Average-sized galaxies are around 15 to 30 thousands LY across, not 100. Modest meaning “not greatâ€, or “not bigâ€, should even be smaller than the average galaxy size. (see here): -The RotJ novel states that Endor and Sullust were "hundreds of LY apart". As per the Maps in every source I found, Endor and Sullust are 1/10th of the galaxy diameter away from one another, and since they are “Hundreds†of LY apart, then they cannot be more than 1000LY apart, perhaps even 2000 LY if we want to be very generous. In a Galaxy 120 000LY in size, they would have been 10 000 to 12 000 LY apart, which no one would use "hundreds" to describe… -In AotC, from Tatooine to Geonosis is "less than a parsec" (3.26 LY or 30.97E+12 km), according to dialogue between Padme and Anakin. Most maps put them close to one another (the one in the "Star Wars Insider" magazine, ), and they are perhaps no more than 1/200th of the Galaxy in size, which would make it 6 520 LY across... Having a Galaxy 10 000 LY across would take the Hyperdrive speeds down a lot, although still above Warp speeds... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted December 1, 2010 Debating about SW vs ST speeds in the vs thread, I wanted to know what you guys thought was a good size estimate for the SW Galaxy. We've had this discussion at SFJ, and while the Essential guide to the galaxy (I believe it is this book) states it is 120 000 LY across, three higher G-Canon sources and all the maps in the EU point to a much smaller Galaxy... -The ANH novel specifically states that the SW galaxy is a modest-sized one. Our very own Milky Way, at around 100 000 LY across, contains from 100 to 400 Billion stars, is not a modest-sized galaxy. It is in fact a large galaxy. Average-sized galaxies are around 15 to 30 thousands LY across, not 100. Modest meaning “not greatâ€, or “not bigâ€, should even be smaller than the average galaxy size. And what was a modest size galaxy back when A New Hope was written? Without knowing that its far to vague to use without knowing what a "modst size galaxy" is in the 70s. And there is one other source I know of that states the SW galaxy is 120,000 LY across, Shield of Lies. Lando mentions the size of the galaxy at some point and it was 120,000 LY. (see here): The link isn't working for me. -The TESB novel states that Endor and Sullust were "hundreds of LY apart". As per the Maps in every source I found, Endor and Sullust are 1/10th of the galaxy diameter away from one another, and since they are “Hundreds†of LY apart, then they cannot be more than 1000LY apart, perhaps even 2000 LY if we want to be very generous. In a Galaxy 120 000LY in size, they would have been 10 000 to 12 000 LY apart, which no one would use "hundreds" to describe… -In AotC, from Tatooine to Geonosis is "less than a parsec" (3.26 LY or 30.97E+12 km), according to dialogue between Padme and Anakin. Most maps put them close to one another (the one in the "Star Wars Insider" magazine, ), and they are perhaps no more than 1/200th of the Galaxy in size, which would make it 6 520 LY across... Having a Galaxy 10 000 LY across would take the Hyperdrive speeds down a lot, although still above Warp speeds... Personally I ignore the maps in favor of hard numbers given by the characters in-universe or in other sources because simply because maps can easily be inaccurate - Hm... planets shown on the maps are easily light years across... not contradicted by the movies… means that ICS is right and that SW starships have Teraton-Petaton level firepower because they are hundreds of thousands to millions of kilometers long! Ok, ya get your small galaxy! Also its Rerturn of the Jedi that states the distance between the two, not TESB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 6, 2010 1. ANH was written in the 70's, the definition of a modest sized galaxy has changed significantly since then, thanks to all the info from the Hubble. Knowing the originators of this, it wouldn't surprise me if they were willfully taking it out of context 2. Said maps aren't specifically mentioned to be to scale, since I can argue that SW systems/stars are lightyears in diameter from them. Funnily the only source specifically drawn to scale, mentions 120,000 LYs 3. A parsec isn't defined as a fixed unit of distance, but rather an angular measurement. A parsec might have an entirely different meaning in SW or more likely use a different set of variables http://scienceworld....omy/Parsec.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 6, 2010 Funnily everyone sane long ago accepted the fact that Hyperdive is retardedly fast. I find it hilarious that one small sect still struggles to prove against all logic that hyperdrive is slow. No one rational questions the speed of SW FTL, the evidence from G canon is overwhelming. Unlike say firepower which is much more ambiguous. But silly trekkies need to tell themselves trek is better at everything so there you go Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted December 6, 2010 1. ANH was written in the 70's, the definition of a modest sized galaxy has changed significantly since then, thanks to all the info from the Hubble. Knowing the originators of this, it wouldn't surprise me if they were willfully taking it out of context 2. Said maps aren't specifically mentioned to be to scale, since I can argue that SW systems/stars are lightyears in diameter from them. Funnily the only source specifically drawn to scale, mentions 120,000 LYs 3. A parsec isn't defined as a fixed unit of distance, but rather an angular measurement. A parsec might have an entirely different meaning in SW or more likely use a different set of variables http://scienceworld....omy/Parsec.html 1)No, a modest-sized galaxy is still a modest-sized galaxy. The Milky Way is still considered a large galaxy. 2)Despite the facts that some EU maps show a very small galaxy, considering that Tatooine and Geonosis were stated to be "less than a parsec away" when they show great distances between the two worlds, and the novelization of ROTJ, where it mentions that Sullust and Endor are "hundreds of light-years" apart, when there are maps in other books that show them to be very far apart. 3)No, that site said that a parsec is the DISTANCE at which the sun would take up one arc-second of the sky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted December 6, 2010 Funnily everyone sane long ago accepted the fact that Hyperdive is retardedly fast. I find it hilarious that one small sect still struggles to prove against all logic that hyperdrive is slow. No one rational questions the speed of SW FTL, the evidence from G canon is overwhelming. Unlike say firepower which is much more ambiguous. But silly trekkies need to tell themselves trek is better at everything so there you go And Warsies don't? Praeothmin and I always thought that hyperdrive was faster than warp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 6, 2010 1)No, a modest-sized galaxy is still a modest-sized galaxy. The Milky Way is still considered a large galaxy. Not when I was in elementary school, the MW was considered an average size galaxy 2)Despite the facts that some EU maps show a very small galaxy, considering that Tatooine and Geonosis were stated to be "less than a parsec away" when they show great distances between the two worlds, and the novelization of ROTJ, where it mentions that Sullust and Endor are "hundreds of light-years" apart, when there are maps in other books that show them to be very far apart. As I said maps aren't necessarily drawn to scale 3)No, that site said that a parsec is the DISTANCE at which the sun would take up one arc-second of the sky. No a parsec it the distance a star/quasar/UFO seen from earth, takes up a second of arc. For it to be the same in SW, it needs to be based off a star exactly 149 million KM from the inhabited planet making the observation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 6, 2010 And Warsies don't? Praeothmin and I always thought that hyperdrive was faster than warp.Obviously, I wasn't referring to you then Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted December 6, 2010 Not when I was in elementary school, the MW was considered an average size galaxy As I said maps aren't necessarily drawn to scale No a parsec it the distance a star/quasar/UFO seen from earth, takes up a second of arc. For it to be the same in SW, it needs to be based off a star exactly 149 million KM from the inhabited planet making the observation 1) Well, average spiral, which would still make it large, considering that the vast majority of galaxies are dwarf irregulars and elipticals. 2) Point taken. 3) That site distintly said "The Sun". And here's a site that gives another definition of parsec: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-parsec.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted December 7, 2010 Funnily everyone sane long ago accepted the fact that Hyperdive is retardedly fast. I find it hilarious that one small sect still struggles to prove against all logic that hyperdrive is slow. No one rational questions the speed of SW FTL, the evidence from G canon is overwhelming. Unlike say firepower which is much more ambiguous. But silly trekkies need to tell themselves trek is better at everything so there you go There is absolutely no question that Hyperdrive is faster than anything short of Transwarp. People who argue otherwise are truly deluded, or they're just n00bs. Now, there's some disagreement as to the importance of Hyperlanes as regards to speed. However, outside of Transwarp, FTL speed goes to Wars hands down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 7, 2010 1) Well, average spiral, which would still make it large, considering that the vast majority of galaxies are dwarf irregulars and elipticals. Except in the 1970s dwarf galaxies were virtually unknown, and the solar system only had 9 planets, Jupiter only had 13 moons, and extrasolar planets were still only theorized. Astronomical knowledge has increased immensely in the last 3 decades, applying the modern definition constitutes taking the quote out of context with what the author intended. 3) That site distintly said "The Sun". And here's a site that gives another definition of parsec: http://www.wisegeek....is-a-parsec.htm And you are missing the point again. The Sol system doesn't exist in SW, thus their parsecs aren't necessarily the same as on in real life. In universe, if the planet they based their parsec on orbits its star at a different distance then the Earth/Sun, their length of a parsec will be different Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted December 7, 2010 I always assumed that by "modest-sized galaxy", the author meant "modest-sized spiral galaxy", since it is a spiral galaxy, which would put it around 50,000 to 80,000 light-years in diameter, since a book I read that was published in '06 said that 50,000 light-years was the general minimum diameter of spiral galaxies. Granted, some could be smaller, but according to that book, spiral galaxies are almost always between 50,000 and 150,000 light-years wide. This is what Wookiepedia has to say about parsecs: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Parsec All in all, not too different from our parsec. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 7, 2010 Since Coruscant and Earth appear to have similar lighting, gravity, than Earth, then their Parsec should be equal to ours, so Tatooine and Geonosis being less than a PARSEC apart makes them no more than 3.26LY apart. Funnily the only source specifically drawn to scale, mentions 120,000 LYs In that source, were Endor and Sullust at a distance of 1/5th of the Galaxy apart, or much, much closer? Because the ROTJ novel says they are "hundreds", not "thousands" of LY apart... And even with a much smaller SW Galaxy, Hyperdrive in Hyper-lanes is easily in the high hundreds of thousands of c, and in some cases, in the million of c. The problem is when you leave these Hyper-lanes, as TCW shows us, where known routes are so important, even in an entire Galaxy... That's why, in any conquest scenario, while the sheer numbers are for the Empire, greater speeds in known lanes do not translate in greater speeds in Federation territory, and so ins't the great advantage a lot of Warsies think... And, by the way, vice versa: the Feds would not be able to attain high speeds in the hundreds of thousands of c because they don't know the "lay of the land"... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 7, 2010 Since Coruscant and Earth appear to have similar lighting, gravity, than Earth, then their Parsec should be equal to ours, so Tatooine and Geonosis being less than a PARSEC apart makes them no more than 3.26LY apart. I've only flipped through the atlas, but I dont remember seeing precise orbital data for Coruscant or a definition of a SW parsec In that source, were Endor and Sullust at a distance of 1/5th of the Galaxy apart, or much, much closer? Because the ROTJ novel says they are "hundreds", not "thousands" of LY apart... Dunno Don't have it, be pretty hard to tell if they aren't on the same map sheet. Oh and hundreds isn't a solid figure easily reconcilable, 20,000 is 20 hundreds. Maybe I'll go get it for christmas And even with a much smaller SW Galaxy, Hyperdrive in Hyper-lanes is easily in the high hundreds of thousands of c, and in some cases, in the million of c. The problem is when you leave these Hyper-lanes, as TCW shows us, where known routes are so important, even in an entire Galaxy... That's why, in any conquest scenario, while the sheer numbers are for the Empire, greater speeds in known lanes do not translate in greater speeds in Federation territory, and so ins't the great advantage a lot of Warsies think... And, by the way, vice versa: the Feds would not be able to attain high speeds in the hundreds of thousands of c because they don't know the "lay of the land"... Except the lack of hyperlanes does nothing to hinder Obi-wan's trip to Kamino or Luke's trip to Dagobah in G canon. But you're all for the EU and lower canon when it suits your purposes Lack of hyperlanes is an inconvenience at worst according to G canon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted December 8, 2010 Why is Skooj in my group. IT IS MINE! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 8, 2010 I've only flipped through the atlas, but I dont remember seeing precise orbital data for Coruscant or a definition of a SW parsec Well, Khas provided a source that defines a SW PARSEC, and it is pretty similar to ours... Dunno Don't have it, be pretty hard to tell if they aren't on the same map sheet. Oh and hundreds isn't a solid figure easily reconcilable, 20,000 is 20 hundreds. Maybe I'll go get it for christmas 20 000 is 200 hundreds, so pretty dumb to use hundreds when thousands is more appropriate... Except the lack of hyperlanes does nothing to hinder Obi-wan's trip to Kamino or Luke's trip to Dagobah in G canon. But you're all for the EU and lower canon when it suits your purposes Lack of hyperlanes is an inconvenience at worst according to G canon Actually, and I hope you'll finally understand it, I'm all for the EU as long as it doesn't contradict the higher canon, whether it's G or T canon. How long was Obi-Wan's trip to Kamino, and where is Kamino? According to most maps I've seen, it's not too far off from Tatooine, and there is a Hyper-lane close to Tatooine. Plus, Geonosis and Dagobah are both in a Galaxy that has been explored almost fully, so at least basic maps are made of these planet's systems... Plus, Anakin's Y-Wing group was able to catch up to the faster ship of Grevious because he took a more dangerous, but more direct route... And in TCW, the Republic needed to secure the Hutt Hyper-lanes in order to help them in the war, and these lanes were "hyper" important... So while not having any lanes does not stop any travel, it does indeed, according to the higher canon, seem to be important... But, again, I fully agree SW Hyperdrive is faster then Warp... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 11, 2010 Hey Praeothmin? Does this mean I can do hard interpretations of of Star Trek dialog now? Or are you going to conceed that you are being an overly pedantic jerk in this thread? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 12, 2010 Hey Praeothmin? Or are you going to conceed that you are being an overly pedantic jerk in this thread? Why yes, yes I am... Does this mean I can do hard interpretations of of Star Trek dialog now? Go right ahead... Oh, and when you get to TDiC and their mantle destroying firepower, let me know, so we can start the "who has the greatest firepower" pissing contest again... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 12, 2010 Why yes, yes I am... Thanks... Go right ahead... Oh, and when you get to TDiC and their mantle destroying firepower, let me know, so we can start the "who has the greatest firepower" pissing contest again... Well, you see, I was planning on doing some selective quoting to demonstrate that ST firepower is rougly in line with what you'd expect out of a particulaly small pistol. I think Jason provided us with a number of examples of that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 13, 2010 Thanks... You're welcome... Well, you see, I was planning on doing some selective quoting to demonstrate that ST firepower is rougly in line with what you'd expect out of a particulaly small pistol. I think Jason provided us with a number of examples of that. Kewl, I can't wait to read them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
