Evidence show Borg cube handle all Star Destroyer Empire send up against them.

[Khas 12,158]

Or maybe particle shields only reflect solid objects, while ray shields reflect plasma and energy. I mean, maybe plasma is too energetic for particle shields.

[Questor 501]

Can I have a cite other than ANH on ray shields? I know the RPGs use them for balance purposes, but do we ever see them?

 

 

 

If course, I'm barely awake at the moment, so this may not make any sense.

[Praeothmin 532]

How do Ray Shields work exactly?

 

Do they simply absorb incoming energy and use "heatsinks" to dissipate it?

 

In that case, they could also be effective against TL bolts, by first dissipating the "magnetic bottle", and then absorbing the energy from the plasma, only leaving the particle's KE as a possible damage factor, meaning for all intents and purpose, you've neutered the threat, 'cause the KE should be so small as to be nearly inexistent with the amount of particles in the bolt (since it is translucent, the concentration should not be enough for "near massless" particles to have much KE)...

 

 

 

Does that make any sense?

[Khas 12,158]

Yes, actually.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Can I have a cite other than ANH on ray shields? I know the RPGs use them for balance purposes, but do we ever see them?

 

 

 

If course, I'm barely awake at the moment, so this may not make any sense.

 

 

 

The tech manuals talk about them both and the differences between them. When I get home I'll look it up, but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology is pretty clear on the differences.

[Tyralak 12,068]

The tech manuals talk about them both and the differences between them. When I get home I'll look it up, but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology is pretty clear on the differences.

 

 

 

From a debate standpoint, I would LOVE this explanation to be right. It would mean that an ISD's shielding would be all but useless against Phaser or Disruptor fire, due to the fact that they use Nadion particles to cause the molecular structure of an object to lose cohesion. At that point, the ISD's armor would be the only protection it has.

[Praeothmin 532]

The tech manuals talk about them both and the differences between them. When I get home I'll look it up, but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology is pretty clear on the differences.

 

 

 

From a debate standpoint, I would LOVE this explanation to be right. It would mean that an ISD's shielding would be all but useless against Phaser or Disruptor fire, due to the fact that they use Nadion particles to cause the molecular structure of an object to lose cohesion. At that point, the ISD's armor would be the only protection it has.

 

 

 

 

You would LOVE for the Tech Manual talking about both to be the correct explanation? ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Khas 12,158]

On the idea that TLs are plasma weapons, Wookiepedia says that particle shields only protect down to a certain size, and that ray shields are used to block micrometeorites, as well as energy, so the idea that turbolasers are plasma is starting to hold water. What the implications are for phasers, however, is unknown.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_shield

[Tyralak 12,068]

You would LOVE for the Tech Manual talking about both to be the correct explanation? ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know what I mean. The plasma explanation would be better for the Trek side because 1. It would mean that SW shielding is likely not designed to deal with Phaser/Disruptor type weapons. 2. Trek shields CAN defend against Plasma weapons because those kind of weapons are well known in the Trek galaxy. Hell also appears to be getting a bit frosty because I find myself skeptical of an idea which is beneficial to my side of the argument and actually defending Wong's explanation regarding TLs and plasma. I think it's a sign of the apocalypse.

[Khas 12,158]

Wait, an idea just came. Since plasma gives off EM radiation, the light emanating from the turbolaser bolts would have a specific frequency. The same goes for thermal, or infrared radiation, which is what's known best as heat, and also has a pretty specific frequency. Given that we know that phaser beams are nadions, but also emit EM radiation, and the it was stated that the Borg adapted mostly to the EM radiation's frequency (Best of Both Worlds mentioned something about the upper EM band being hard for the Borg to adapt to) and that the phasers were being fired, with those EM frequencies, that shows that the Borg adapt to thing with EM frequencies that aren't light/radiation-based weapons. Would this also mean that the Borg could adapt to turbolasers as well?

[Mith 0]

You know what I mean. The plasma explanation would be better for the Trek side because 1. It would mean that SW shielding is likely not designed to deal with Phaser/Disruptor type weapons. 2. Trek shields CAN defend against Plasma weapons because those kind of weapons are well known in the Trek galaxy. Hell also appears to be getting a bit frosty because I find myself skeptical of an idea which is beneficial to my side of the argument and actually defending Wong's explanation regarding TLs and plasma. I think it's a sign of the apocalypse.

 

 

 

Actually, funny story. According to some things dug up over at Starfleet Jedi, the closest thing to phasers/disruptors in Star Wars penetrates right through SW shielding. They literally have no defense against it.

 

 

 

 

 

Wait, an idea just came. Since plasma gives off EM radiation, the light emanating from the turbolaser bolts would have a specific frequency. The same goes for thermal, or infrared radiation, which is what's known best as heat, and also has a pretty specific frequency. Given that we know that phaser beams are nadions, but also emit EM radiation, and the it was stated that the Borg adapted mostly to the EM radiation's frequency (Best of Both Worlds mentioned something about the upper EM band being hard for the Borg to adapt to) and that the phasers were being fired, with those EM frequencies, that shows that the Borg adapt to thing with EM frequencies that aren't light/radiation-based weapons. Would this also mean that the Borg could adapt to turbolasers as well?

 

 

 

Alright, this seems to be a brain bug.

 

 

 

Borg adaption isn't just based on frequency. That's mention very often because UFP weapons use frequency. However, It's started to become a brain bug that they can ONLY adapt to frequency. That's not true. Adaption is simply them doing what they can to optimize their defensive and offensive abillities against a particular weapon or defense. It's not all that different from what we do. The difference is that the Borg can implement this a great deal faster than we can.

 

 

 

In reality, the Borg are going to adapt to some degree no matter what, it's just remains to be asked how effective that adaption is. Now if it is plasma, the Borg will have an easier time adapting to it--the least of which is probably due to the massive shielding and offensive abilities they have in relation to SW. In short, the Empire would be up shit creek if a Borg cube decided to start assimilating things left and right.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Could you link it? That would be particularly interesting.

[Tyralak 12,068]

This is the information I was going from:

 

 

 

 

 

 

However if the Hellbore explanation is right, than this changes things significantly. It means that the Superlaser is a different kind of weapon entirely, likely an NDF weapon. It also means that ISDs would truly have little protection from weapons in the Trek universe. This does take things in a really different direction.

[Airlocke 12,014]

The weapon that Mith is speaking of is a called a Crystal-metal phase-shifter. It disadvantages are range(Literally point blank range. Only a couple of kilometers.) and inaccuracy. It works by breaking down the materials that make up the hulls of star-ships. It literally vaporizes them. We have not seen it used on anything other than a Star Destroyer, and we have only seen them used once. They were considered outdated and nonfunctional pieces of technology by the Empire. They were being developed in the Maw institution.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metal-Crystal_Phase_Shifter

[Khas 12,158]

The Death Star novel also mentions that the superlaser is a chain-reaction weapon. I know, I have the book. It mentions that the beam shoves some of the planet's mass into hyperspace, and the surge of energy triggers a chain-reaction in the planet, causing atoms to split into their matter-antimatter pairs, blowing the planet to smithereens.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superlaser

 

 

 

The Hellbore design seems to be what TLs are, as Wookiepedia says that TLs are scaled up blasters, and it mentions that blasters fire laser beams into Tibanna gas to get either a particle beam or a plasma bolt.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster#Blaster_mechanics

[Questor 501]

The Death Star novel also mentions that the superlaser is a chain-reaction weapon. I know, I have the book. It mentions that the beam shoves some of the planet's mass into hyperspace, and the surge of energy triggers a chain-reaction in the planet, causing atoms to split into their matter-antimatter pairs, blowing the planet to smithereens.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Superlaser

 

 

 

Interesting, as this is excatly what dumping a shitload of energy into the system would do as well...

 

 

 

What level of mass do you think is left?

 

 

 

(I ask for a very good reason)

 

 

 

Also, are we still operating on the assumption that all beam combining weapons are superlasers... this is significant as well.

[Questor 501]

Actually, funny story. According to some things dug up over at Starfleet Jedi, the closest thing to phasers/disruptors in Star Wars penetrates right through SW shielding. They literally have no defense against it.

 

 

 

I'd actually be willing to stipulate this if you had demonstrated even the common sense, research abiltiy, debate ability, or even willingness to provide evidence of a particularly stupid ant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Borg adaption isn't just based on frequency. That's mention very often because UFP weapons use frequency. However, It's started to become a brain bug that they can ONLY adapt to frequency. That's not true. Adaption is simply them doing what they can to optimize their defensive and offensive abillities against a particular weapon or defense. It's not all that different from what we do. The difference is that the Borg can implement this a great deal faster than we can.

 

 

 

BULLSHIT.

 

 

 

Why is frequency shifting able to defeat adaptation?

 

 

 

Why are the borg unable to adapt to non-frequency based weapons, even when said adaptation is so obvious that humans figured it out multiple milennia ago?

 

 

 

and now, at the risk of being accused of abuse of power.

 

 

 

YOU WILL PROVIDE DIRECT EVIDENCE THAT THE BORG'S ABILITY TO ADAPT IS NOT LIMITED BY FREQUENCY.

[Khas 12,158]

I know they would have the same effect. I'm just going by how it said it worked.

 

 

 

As for leftover planetary mass, um, 80%?

 

 

 

And according to Wookiepedia, the smallest ship to be able to sport a superlaser is an ISD, but the beam cannons for an ISD's superlaser take up the four corners of the hangar. They are very space-consuming.

 

 

 

And no, we're not under the assumption that all beam-combining weapons are superlasers, as The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels points out on the Republic Gunships seen at Geonosis that those were laser cannons, which operate on the same principle as blasters and turbolasers, even though they did have a beam-combining attack.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Why is frequency shifting able to defeat adaptation?

 

 

 

Why are the borg unable to adapt to non-frequency based weapons, even when said adaptation is so obvious that humans figured it out multiple milennia ago?

 

 

 

You have proof of a non frequency based weapon being fired at a Borg ship and them being unable to adapt?

[Questor 501]

The weapon that Mith is speaking of is a called a Crystal-metal phase-shifter. It disadvantages are range(Literally point blank range. Only a couple of kilometers.) and inaccuracy. It works by breaking down the materials that make up the hulls of star-ships. It literally vaporizes them. We have not seen it used on anything other than a Star Destroyer, and we have only seen them used once. They were considered outdated and nonfunctional pieces of technology by the Empire. They were being developed in the Maw institution.

 

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Metal-Crystal_Phase_Shifter

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

 

 

So it operates in a completely different way - not destroying the atomic structure of the target but rather by turning it to dust (not disintegrating) - and certain brain dead individuals wish to assume that its the same thing.

 

 

 

This is the exact type of reasoning I expect to see from SFJ.

 

 

 

While the MCPS did not dramatically turn an entire ship's hull into powder, it did create many tiny cracks and weak spots throughout the hull, which was sufficient to make the vessel lose critical structural integrity and collapse on itself.

 

 

 

That's exactly the same as the way phasers and disrupters work.

 

 

 

Once again at the risk of being accused of abusing my power, because this kind of shit is a pet peeve of mine...

 

MITH WILL WITHDRAW THE POINTS REGARDING THIS OBVIOUS DISHONEST DEBATING. HE EITHER CHECKED HIS SOURCE, AND IS THEREFORE MISREPRESENTING HIS EVIDENCE INTENTIONALLY AND OBFUSCATING BY BLAMING IT ON SFJ AND NOT CITING THE DISCUSSION; OR HE TOOK THE WORD OF OTHERS AT FACE VALUE AND SHOULD LEARN A LESSON FROM THIS.

[Questor 501]

You have proof of a non frequency based weapon being fired at a Borg ship and them being unable to adapt?

 

 

 

Not a ship, but Mith didn't limit himself to ships. They keep getting clubbed straight through First Contact. It should be relatively simple for a species that can projecto a forcefield from the body ("Q Who") to use any of the dozens of methods we have seen in ST to reduce the damage from a physical blow such as being hit with a phaser rifle.

 

 

 

The bullets and sword are just icing on the cake.

[Questor 501]

I know they would have the same effect. I'm just going by how it said it worked.

 

 

 

As for leftover planetary mass, um, 80%?

 

 

 

Asuming that 80% of the planets mass is left, then the energy dumped into the system to cause that effect is 3.66552e1041 J, or 8.7608e1025 megatons of TNT.

 

 

 

E=MC² is a bitch, ain't it?

 

 

 

And according to Wookiepedia, the smallest ship to be able to sport a superlaser is an ISD, but the beam cannons for an ISD's superlaser take up the four corners of the hangar. They are very space-consuming.

 

 

 

Cool.

 

 

 

And no, we're not under the assumption that all beam-combining weapons are superlasers, as The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels points out on the Republic Gunships seen at Geonosis that those were laser cannons, which operate on the same principle as blasters and turbolasers, even though they did have a beam-combining attack.

 

 

 

 

Good to know. I asked because Tyralak and I had had discussions before. Of course that doesn't rule anything out, but it does imply that there is at least the posibility that they are different mechanisms and therefor they should be treated that way.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Interesting.

 

 

 

So it operates in a completely different way - not destroying the atomic structure of the target but rather by turning it to dust (not disintegrating) - and certain brain dead individuals wish to assume that its the same thing.

 

 

 

This is the exact type of reasoning I expect to see from SFJ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's exactly the same as the way phasers and disrupters work.

 

 

 

Once again at the risk of being accused of abusing my power, because this kind of shit is a pet peeve of mine...

 

MITH WILL WITHDRAW THE POINTS REGARDING THIS OBVIOUS DISHONEST DEBATING. HE EITHER CHECKED HIS SOURCE, AND IS THEREFORE MISREPRESENTING HIS EVIDENCE INTENTIONALLY AND OBFUSCATING BY BLAMING IT ON SFJ AND NOT CITING THE DISCUSSION; OR HE TOOK THE WORD OF OTHERS AT FACE VALUE AND SHOULD LEARN A LESSON FROM THIS.

 

 

 

Glad I could help. I never understood how this was similar to a phaser(Especially considering that phasers work on materials other than metal, have a stun setting[something that is impossible, given the way that this weapon works], and can be used to heat objects. This weapon would not accomplish any of those goals. Also, it is not a narrow beam weapon, like most phaser blasts. It is only capable of firing in a wide spray. Of course, this could be by design, and to combat its poor accuracy and range.

 

 

 

Anyway, I do not have the scientific knowledge to back this up, so I have never brought forth this point before. I just assumed that since Oragahn and Dicenso said that it worked similarly, that it worked similarly.

[Tyralak 12,068]

We know that the Romulans have and use Plasma torpedoes. Technology which they've had for a long time. Also in Enterprise, Phase Pistols were not in wide use. Most people (Including MACOs) used plasma rifles and pistols. And he Borg were still able to overrun that research station in "Regeneration"

[Questor 501]

Anyway, I do not have the scientific knowledge to back this up, so I have never brought forth this point before. I just assumed that since Oragahn and Dicenso said that it worked similarly, that it worked similarly.

 

 

 

No problem, your questiond are the same ones I asked myself. The reason Mith got called out is that he didn't provide any information on what his source was, so it could not be checked and then presented it like it was a settled issue.

 

 

 

I actually have no problem with the idea that phasers and disrupters would not be blocked by SW shields. My issue is with how relevant that is.

 

 

 

Mith just pushed the insta-enrage button.