Enterprise-D Vs Covenant Destroyer

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Which is again, retarded. If UNSC ships were regularly capable of tossing out gigaton level firepower, not only would 30 megaton mines be absurdly retarded to have onboard--but it also makes me wonder why they'd bother to use them to destroy ships that are so crippled that they themselves would be able to assrape them. Also, how very lucky that they hit the one ship still capable of defelcting teraton firepower...right? Even more fortunate that the fleet commander for the Covenant was so amazingly stupid that he sent his crippled fleet into battle.

 

 

 

To give a comparison, it would be like a modern US Admiral sending his ships into battle when they could be sunk by muskets due to previous battle damage. Because that's exactly the same sort of gap we're looking at here. Funny how all your arguments rely on the characters being ungodly stupid.

 

 

 

The Fleet Master out numbered them, he could afford the to lose a few ships. And is it silly? Yes. But it doesn't change anything given that within its own canon tier the Halo Encyclopedia overrules older canon.

 

 

 

In other words, you'll say that they can have non-DET effects...except during glassing operations and combat. Because then obviously they use teratons of firepower even though its hundreds of times more inefficient than the technobabble way.

 

 

 

So I guess all those accelerations by UNSC ships that still require Gigaton range per second outputs (Nattuo's calcs, see Halo firepower thread on this site for the link) are just mass hallucinations, and the Pillar of Autumn didn't go off in a multi-Teraton explosion, and Cortana was clearly already rampant when she said In Amber Clad's reactors going off would be enough to destroy High Charity.

 

 

 

...And? Again, if you want to go with wank yields, I can point to TDiC where almost half that amount was stated to do a great deal more in a great deal less time.

 

 

 

And I'm more than willing to allow it given it would clearly cripple the firing ship for a time (1 hour to remove crust, opening volley destroyed 30% crust. This kind of knocks out any chance of standard ship based firepower).

 

 

 

So...that reinforces the idea that the UNSC uses mass reduction.

 

 

 

To move their ships are 1000+ Gs. You will of course prove with a canon source that they use it on MAC rounds.

 

 

 

Given that they all use mass reduction, I really can't imagine that they'd be able to create teraton explosions. That's not even taking into account relative velocity.

 

 

 

Pillar of Autumn, the only stated source for the massive explosion at the end of Halo CE, easily was in the high TT range. Given the reactor could output and withstand this forces for a time... what reason do they have for not cranking up the juice and firing what would basically be ship based SMAC's? Or just detonate ships inside Covenant fleets to completely wipe them out?

 

 

 

Handwaving at its finest.

 

 

 

How about an actual argument now?

 

 

 

Translation: Wah! I don’t want to reconcile the newer canon with the older games if possible.

 

 

 

We can easily reconcile the Halo Wars with the older GAMES by this fact alone. Unless you would care to explain why out of the blue Bungie decided everything showings massive accelerations and ships crossing massive distances in the other games is suddenly wrong. It perfectly explains the inconsistent acceleration in Halo Wars and we do not have to throw out three games worth of evidence for massive acceleration.

 

 

 

So...mass reduction?

 

 

 

Either that or they have absurdly low density materials that are so strong that it is a fit you can walk around on them without falling through the floor. Take your pick.

 

 

 

Two really? Can we see them? And even if they were, they're massive outliers.

 

 

 

Insurrection: Two Son'A ships, who together can outfight the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torps without flinching, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of 'Metrion Gas.' Chemical reactions of that nature are, compared to nuclear fission/fusion and M/AM reactions, absolutely pathetic. But this kind of silly stuff is what you can expect to see in sci-fi.

 

 

 

Night Terrors: the Enterprise D's weapons cache is once again proven to be inferior to the chemical explosion of the volatile anicium and yurium components of a man's cargo. So, kind of a double standard to complain about the UNSC using chemical weapons.

[Mith 0]

The Fleet Master out numbered them, he could afford the to lose a few ships. And is it silly? Yes. But it doesn't change anything given that within its own canon tier the Halo Encyclopedia overrules older canon.

 

 

 

It's not silly.

 

 

 

It's fucking retarded. It'd be like a modern US fleet, despite being torn apart to hell to the point that small side arms could sink them deciding to attack a small group of heavily armed enemy ships because 'he could take the losses'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I guess all those accelerations by UNSC ships that still require Gigaton range per second outputs (Nattuo's calcs, see Halo firepower thread on this site for the link) are just mass hallucinations,

 

 

 

Yeah, because gigaton level energy generation a second is totaly possible with fusion engines...oh shit, no it's not. Fucking hell man, will you get some fucking dignity?

 

 

 

 

 

and the Pillar of Autumn didn't go off in a multi-Teraton explosion,

 

 

 

It didn't asshole. The novel makes it perfectly clear that the explosion from the reactors put a hole in the ground, causing it to weaken and break and that's the massive explosion we see--you know, the one that utterly shatters the ring?

 

 

 

 

 

and Cortana was clearly already rampant when she said In Amber Clad's reactors going off would be enough to destroy High Charity.

 

 

 

Which means...what? High Charity is a massive floating ship made from a large asteroid. Blowing up a nuclear reactor nearby would probably cause a chain reaction--ie, destroying the asteroid.

 

 

 

And I'm more than willing to allow it given it would clearly cripple the firing ship for a time (1 hour to remove crust, opening volley destroyed 30% crust. This kind of knocks out any chance of standard ship based firepower).

 

 

 

Allow? Allow?

 

 

 

Why thank you you little pecker, how nice of you to allow me to have firepower based on some bullshit qualifications that you put in place with no evidence.

 

 

 

There was no evidence that the fleet had crippled their own weapon system. Stop making up some bullshit excuse as to why they can't use the firepower. Both sides have absurdly high showing. They're called outliers. If you want to use yours, then I'll use mine. And they'll rape your ships in a matter of seconds.

 

 

 

To move their ships are 1000+ Gs. You will of course prove with a canon source that they use it on MAC rounds.

 

 

 

The fact that their ships are mass reduced and are carrying them is pretty damning enough. And of course, the fact that the ship's thrusters would still require it to match said energy when it fires via recoil.

 

 

 

 

 

Pillar of Autumn, the only stated source for the massive explosion at the end of Halo CE, easily was in the high TT range. Given the reactor could output and withstand this forces for a time... what reason do they have for not cranking up the juice and firing what would basically be ship based SMAC's? Or just detonate ships inside Covenant fleets to completely wipe them out?

 

 

 

Yeah, the explosion that only made a fairly small crater in relative to its massive ground based explosion? Don't make me laugh. The explosion we saw in the game was clearly from the ring itself exploding, not the ship.

 

 

 

 

 

Translation: Wah! I don’t want to reconcile the newer canon with the older games if possible.

 

 

 

Trnaslation: Wah! My shitty argument dies with higher canon!

 

 

 

We can easily reconcile the Halo Wars with the older GAMES by this fact alone. Unless you would care to explain why out of the blue Bungie decided everything showings massive accelerations and ships crossing massive distances in the other games is suddenly wrong. It perfectly explains the inconsistent acceleration in Halo Wars and we do not have to throw out three games worth of evidence for massive acceleration.

 

 

 

Newer games override the old. Oh, but you don't seem to want to do that when it takes a shit on your arugment do you?

 

 

 

Either that or they have absurdly low density materials that are so strong that it is a fit you can walk around on them without falling through the floor. Take your pick.

 

 

 

Prove that. We have more evidence pointing to mass reduction than your made up armor argument.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Insurrection: Two Son'A ships, who together can outfight the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torps without flinching, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of 'Metrion Gas.' Chemical reactions of that nature are, compared to nuclear fission/fusion and M/AM reactions, absolutely pathetic. But this kind of silly stuff is what you can expect to see in sci-fi.

 

 

 

Given said gas also created a habitable class M planet with a bright blue sky and fountain of youth rings, we can't tell what the fuck that stuff does.

 

 

 

Night Terrors: the Enterprise D's weapons cache is once again proven to be inferior to the chemical explosion of the volatile anicium and yurium components of a man's cargo. So, kind of a double standard to complain about the UNSC using chemical weapons.

 

 

 

...That tells me nothing. How much of this stuff was in the man's cargo? And again, small outlier when we see that they use power generation far, far beyond that.

[Mith 0]

You mean the same game where we see both SMAC stations and ships open up the moment the Covenant fleet enters the kill zone - and are still BvR?

 

 

 

BvR? The fuck does that mean?

 

 

 

 

 

Also Halo 3 overrules it by showing of MT range explosions on the Keyship.

 

 

 

Yeah, those guns sure did fight at those supersonic ranges all right...

 

 

 

 

 

The stories are canon, but the visuals per Frank O'Conner can not be taken as accurate.

 

 

 

Yeah, the part of the story where a small fucking gun blows a hole through the supposed teraton shielded ship. That one. The one where a Elite commander was apparently so incapable of vaporizing a handful of boost frames at close range that the commander in charge was willing to blow up his own ships as a small price to pay for killing them.

 

 

 

It'd be like a naval captain blowing up his own ships becuase a few guys on heavily armed skee jets were attacking their fleet.

 

 

 

Already conceded on weapons range. Also please prove they fight at high C speeds given we never see that anywhere I can recall, and both BoBW and FC (Movie) so them not fighting at high C speeds.

 

 

 

Visuals for Trek are never accurate. They can't even get the ship sizes right half the time. We even see that when it comes to dialogue, the ranges are always higher than the visuals. Conclusion: the visuals are flawed.

 

 

 

I'm not, I simply corrected him on standard Covenant glassing operations, and pointing out that TDiC can be explain by the standard treknobabble and an overcharged super shot that leaves the ship defenseless for a time.

 

 

 

You mean handwaved away by claiming it's technobabble (even though on a show where they just love to toss it out--they don't in this case...) and your overcharged shot is also bullshit, given that we're in no case told that it's either an overcharged shot or even that if were, that it would leave the ship defenseless.

 

 

 

I can agree there are plenty of outliers, but the fact remains there are still far to many high ends in Halo that even have support in the games. IF the new novels show and Halo Reach conclusively prove it wrong I will concede.

 

 

 

Yeah, I'll take that at face value.

 

 

 

And you will of course give us this quote in which Bungie explicitly says Covenant weapons are not pure DET?

 

 

 

I believe it was something like 'weapons are far more ancient and archaic...'. It didn't specifically say non-DET. However, it does suggest and fix a great deal of problems we see with BDZs.

 

 

 

 

 

Becuase the only quote I know of on the matter doesn't mean much currently simply because it doesn't give enough infomration. And the Booster Frames are lower canon than both books and games and are contradicted by higher canon throughout (take for exmaple Halo rings appearing in orbit of Covenant home worlds... yeah, nice of Halo Legends to go and attempt to f**k over the higher canon games).

 

 

 

Proof that Halo Legends are lower canon?

 

 

 

And the fact their ships are so light proves nothing unless you happen to have a quote that proves this use it to fire the MAC.

 

 

 

It says everything. Otherwise, they'd have to drop to a dead stop to fire the MACs in order to allow the mass of the ammo to be returned to its real mass.

 

 

 

Because until then Occam’s Razor frowns upon you.

 

 

 

Yeah, Occam's Razor doesn't apply so well when canon itself is convoluted and stupid so that we have to reason away why ships capable of teratons of firepower and deflection that they can be taken down by MT level mines. Or that people that toss out gigatons to teratons would even carry them.

 

 

 

But lets say they do use to fire the MAC round, guess what? Unless you prove that its on the round itself the moment it leaves the MR field generated by the ship it is a 600 ton slug moving at 40% the speed of light for a grand total of 1.17 Teratons. And on Halo 2 I will once more point out that the first shots we see are fired at BvR when Cortana goes loud. Also the same game in which Cortana considers detonating a Frigates to be enough to wipe out High Charity.

 

 

 

 

And if you want to continue being a little pecker, I can play that game too. UFP ships clearly have ubertons of firepower via TDiC, Obsession, Booby Trap, and so forth. See? I can be a dick too.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

It's not silly.

 

 

 

It's fucking retarded. It'd be like a modern US fleet, despite being torn apart to hell to the point that small side arms could sink them deciding to attack a small group of heavily armed enemy ships because 'he could take the losses'.

 

 

 

And its my problem how? I fully agree. But for the time being canon supports my position firepower given GoO is lower canon.

 

 

 

Yeah, because gigaton level energy generation a second is totaly possible with fusion engines...oh shit, no it's not. Fucking hell man, will you get some fucking dignity?

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but there's this thing called "canon", when it says that the laws of physics in X universe are slightly different than Y-verse we don't use universe Y's laws of physics in place of univese X's. We assume they continue to work as shown in either universe.

 

 

 

And linky: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4517844&postcount=60

 

 

 

It didn't asshole. The novel makes it perfectly clear that the explosion from the reactors put a hole in the ground, causing it to weaken and break and that's the massive explosion we see--you know, the one that utterly shatters the ring?

 

 

 

Nice lie, asshole. So lets look at this, shall we?

 

 

 

Page 340 Halo: The Flood

 

 

 

As the cruiser's fusion drives went critical, a compact sun

 

blossomed on the surface of Halo. Its thermonuclear sphere

 

carved a five-kilometer crater into the superdense ring mate-

 

rial and sent powerful pressure waves rippling throughout

 

the structure. Both up- and down-spin of the explosion, the

 

fireball flattened and sterilized the surface terrain. Within

 

moments, the yellow-white core had consumed all of the

 

available fuel, collapsed upon itself, and winked out.

 

Still spinning, but unable to withstand the foces exerted

 

on this new weak point, the ring structure slowly tore itself

 

apart. Huge chunks of debris tumbled end over end and out into

 

space, as a five-hundred-kilometer-long section of the ring

 

world's hull sliced through an even longer curve of brilliantly

 

engineered metal, earth, and water, and produced a cascade

 

of eerily slient explosions.

 

 

 

I put an important part in bold for you. But first: Tell me where it says there was another large explosion that wasn't the Pillar of Autumn's fusion cores going off, please. I clearly must be blind given I don't see it there. Now note the bold part that the explosion put a five-kilometer crater in the superdense ring material - not the upper surface with the ground, but the ring material below. So please quantify this material and show it backs up your claim.

 

 

 

Which means...what? High Charity is a massive floating ship made from a large asteroid. Blowing up a nuclear reactor nearby would probably cause a chain reaction--ie, destroying the asteroid.

 

 

 

Only the very base of High Charity is made out of a chunk of the Prophet homeworld; the vast majority of it was built by the Covenant.. And Cortana failed to mention any chain-reaction and was very sure that In Amber Clad would blow up the station.

 

 

 

Allow? Allow?

 

 

 

Why thank you you little pecker, how nice of you to allow me to have firepower based on some bullshit qualifications that you put in place with no evidence.

 

 

 

No evidence? Do you mean the dialogue from the episode? Here:

 

 

 

Originally Posted By The Die is Cast

 

TAIN

 

(to Garak)

 

Our plan is to wait until we've

 

entered orbit of the Founders' planet,

 

then decloak and begin a massive

 

bombardment.

 

 

 

LOVOK

 

Computer analysis indicates that the

 

planet's crust will be destroyed

 

within one hour, and the mantle within

 

five.

 

 

 

Planets crust would be destroyed within one hour.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted By The Die is Cast

 

PILOT

 

(off console)

 

The first barrage has hit the

 

surface...

 

 

 

TAIN

 

Effect?

 

 

 

PILOT

 

Thirty percent of the planetary crust

 

destroyed on opening volley...

 

(puzzled)

 

No change in lifeform readings.

 

 

 

TAIN

 

(frowns)

 

What? That's impossible. Some of

 

them had to be killed.

 

 

 

Thirty percent of the planet's crust destroyed in the opening volley.

 

 

 

There was no evidence that the fleet had crippled their own weapon system. Stop making up some bullshit excuse as to why they can't use the firepower. Both sides have absurdly high showing. They're called outliers. If you want to use yours, then I'll use mine. And they'll rape your ships in a matter of seconds.

 

 

 

So their too stupid to continue firing and completely destroy the plant in minutes? Or how do you explain them destroing thirty percent of the planetary crust with a single volley? I don't deny they can use that level of firepower, but if they do it seems clear that they need to make sure to kill or at least cripple the Destroyer with it on the first try or their dead.

 

 

 

The fact that their ships are mass reduced and are carrying them is pretty damning enough. And of course, the fact that the ship's thrusters would still require it to match said energy when it fires via recoil.

 

 

 

Page 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia

 

 

 

MAC Gun

 

The Magnetic Accelerator Cannon [MAC] Gun is one of the

 

lagest [and best] weapons that the UNSC has in its fleet.

 

Utilizing thousands of magnetic relays, it can ram a 600-ton

 

projetile at nearly forty percent the speed of light. Able to

 

pulverize most Covenant ships in one to three blasts, these

 

weapons are mounted on all UNSC spaceships large enough to

 

hold them. Unfortunately, MACs are slow to fire and, due to

 

their size, require the entire ship on which they are built to

 

maneuver in order to align fire. In the Fall of Reach, MAC Gun

 

barrages were able to destroy whole swaths of Covenant

 

Destroyers, but in the time it took for them to reload, faster

 

alien ships had already penetrated the Human defenses. Work

 

is constantly underway in hopes of upgrading these weapons

 

into faster, stronger, and more maneuverable models.

 

 

 

Feel free to point out this rather vital Mass Lighting device used to fire the rounds. Because the fact they don't mention what is a vital component to firing the MAC shells at these speeds kind of shoots you down.

 

 

 

Yeah, the explosion that only made a fairly small crater in relative to its massive ground based explosion? Don't make me laugh. The explosion we saw in the game was clearly from the ring itself exploding, not the ship.

 

 

 

Go ahead and quantify the superdense ring material then. Because until you do it means nothing more than Forerunner materials used for the rings are insanely strong. Also the book continues to say your talking bullshit about what we see in the game not being the Pillar of Autumn going off given their is no mention of a large secondary explosion.

 

 

 

Trnaslation: Wah! My shitty argument dies with higher canon!

 

 

 

Newer games override the old. Oh, but you don't seem to want to do that when it takes a shit on your arugment do you?

 

 

 

Bungie hates to retcon things you see (stated in the same source as New>Old). The first thing you do in the event of contradictions in the canon of a the universe in question is to see if the sources can be reconciled. Guess what? In this case it is a simple matter to reconcile them given Slipspace was fucks up anything we can get out of that without another example in a non-Slipspace affected area. The older books Vs the Halo Encyclopedia? Not so much given there is no mention of this vital Mass Reduction technology they need per you to be able to fire their MAC rounds at the speeds needed to hit Covenant ships.

 

 

 

Prove that. We have more evidence pointing to mass reduction than your made up armor argument.

 

 

 

Please point out where I made an argument of it. I simply mention the alternative to MR tech and said pick whichever one you want.

 

 

 

Given said gas also created a habitable class M planet with a bright blue sky and fountain of youth rings, we can't tell what the fuck that stuff does.

 

 

 

Been sometime since I watch the episode so I didn't recall that. Point still stands though its a double standard given we don't know what the UNSC uses in Archer missiles.

 

 

 

...That tells me nothing. How much of this stuff was in the man's cargo? And again, small outlier when we see that they use power generation far, far beyond that.

 

 

 

I'll have to watch the episode again, but I don't recall it being very much. I'll get back to you on it after double checking with MA and seeing if I can find it on Youtube.

[Praeothmin 532]

Actually, Prophet, this is what the original Nylund novel stated about the shipboard MACs:

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30 000m/s.

 

A Super MAC projects a 3000 metric tons (I added metric, because everything else is in metric) at "point 4 tenths the speed of light".

 

If .4c is "point 4 the speed of light", and a "tenth" is actually 1/10th, then "point 4 tenths the speed of light" is 0.04c, or 12 000 000m/s.

 

 

 

Let's run some calculations, shall we?

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30km/s:

 

 

 

Ek = mv²/2

 

600 tons are 600 000kg.

 

So (600 000kg x 30 000m/s²)/2 = 270 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 64.5Kton.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Super MAC platform has a mass of 3,000,000 kg and a speed of .04c (12 000 000m/s):

 

 

 

Ek = mv²/2

 

3000 tons are 3 000 000kg.

 

So (3 000 000kg x 12 000 000m/s²)/2 = 216 000 000 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 51.62Gton.

 

 

 

This ensures 1 hit = 1 Kill for SMAC against shielded Covenant ships, “ripping through them like tin foil, with enough momentum to pulverize their hulls†(Halo: The Fall Of Reach)…

 

 

 

HALO Wars also describes clearly to the real effects of Covenant 'glassing', Harvest being a world the UNSC considered to be Glassed was still entirely habitable to human troops, albeit with extreme shifts in climate.

 

 

 

So while a super MAC would also destroy any ST ship it hit, a ship board MAC, with its 65Kton payload, able to destroy Covenant ships in 3 shots, would not even scratch the E-D's shields...

 

 

 

You want another high end feat for ST?

 

 

 

 

 

Voyager getting hit by a 8472 Bioship's beam.

 

 

 

Voyager's shields were only brought down to 82%, an 18% drop in one shot.

 

But what interested me more in that video was that the beam brought Voyager from a still position to spinning out off control.

 

Yes, spinning!

 

Voyager had enough momentum imparted to itself to do almost 2 full turns before finally regaining control.

 

And the shot hit Voyager from the back, and we only see voyager do about two thirds of a cartwheel in about 1 second.

 

Still impressive.

 

We then cut to inside the ship, we see a few things being done, and then when we come back to the outside view, we see the ship still spinning, at least half a turn, then it regains control.

 

 

 

Keeping in mind that Voyager masses 700 000 metric tons, it hit with the equivalent of 71Gtons if the beam is masseless.

 

So we know that Voyager could take roughly 4-5 Super MAC hits before being in trouble.

 

Do I think it's an outlier?

 

Yes, more then probable, but then, it is as canon as any figures found in Halo books and games...

 

 

 

Oh, and according to Wong's asteroid calculator, to Vaporize a 5km crater of iron requires 935Gtons, almost 1 Tton.

 

If we're just "cratering it", then it's 590Mtons, nowhere near Ttons.

 

Where did you get that number from?

[Mith 0]

Actually, Prophet, this is what the original Nylund novel stated about the shipboard MACs:

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30 000m/s.

 

A Super MAC projects a 3000 metric tons (I added metric, because everything else is in metric) at "point 4 tenths the speed of light".

 

If .4c is "point 4 the speed of light", and a "tenth" is actually 1/10th, then "point 4 tenths the speed of light" is 0.04c, or 12 000 000m/s.

 

 

 

Let's run some calculations, shall we?

 

A standard ship borne MAC platform projects 600 metric tons at 30km/s:

 

 

 

Ek = mv²/2

 

600 tons are 600 000kg.

 

So (600 000kg x 30 000m/s²)/2 = 270 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 64.5Kton.

 

 

 

Ah-hah!

 

 

 

This makes it all the more simpler. Ie, if we take the TM as giving the unmodified weight and ignoring relative velocity, this solves everything!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Super MAC platform has a mass of 3,000,000 kg and a speed of .04c (12 000 000m/s):

 

 

 

Ek = mv²/2

 

3000 tons are 3 000 000kg.

 

So (3 000 000kg x 12 000 000m/s²)/2 = 216 000 000 000 000 000 000 Joules, or 51.62Gton.

 

 

 

This is right where expected yields takes them.

 

 

[/b]HALO Wars also describes clearly to the real effects of Covenant 'glassing', Harvest being a world the UNSC considered to be Glassed was still entirely habitable to human troops, albeit with extreme shifts in climate.

 

 

 

So while a super MAC would also destroy any ST ship it hit, a ship board MAC, with its 65Kton payload, able to destroy Covenant ships in 3 shots, would not even scratch the E-D's shields...

 

 

 

Oh, you see, Prophet and his fellow Haloites try and retconn that as to 'not meaning actual glassing', even though the characters consider it to be in every single way imaginable.

 

 

 

You want another high end feat for ST?

 

 

 

 

 

Voyager getting hit by a 8472 Bioship's beam.

 

 

 

Voyager's shields were only brought down to 82%, an 18% drop in one shot.

 

But what interested me more in that video was that the beam brought Voyager from a still position to spinning out off control.

 

Yes, spinning!

 

Voyager had enough momentum imparted to itself to do almost 2 full turns before finally regaining control.

 

And the shot hit Voyager from the back, and we only see voyager do about two thirds of a cartwheel in about 1 second.

 

Still impressive.

 

We then cut to inside the ship, we see a few things being done, and then when we come back to the outside view, we see the ship still spinning, at least half a turn, then it regains control.

 

 

 

Keeping in mind that Voyager masses 700 000 metric tons, it hit with the equivalent of 71Gtons if the beam is masseless.

 

So we know that Voyager could take roughly 4-5 Super MAC hits before being in trouble.

 

Do I think it's an outlier?

 

Yes, more then probable, but then, it is as canon as any figures found in Halo books and games...

 

 

 

Oh, and according to Wong's asteroid calculator, to Vaporize a 5km crater of iron requires 935Gtons, almost 1 Tton.

 

If we're just "cratering it", then it's 590Mtons, nowhere near Ttons.

 

Where did you get that number from?

 

 

 

Heck, we can also get gigatons from Damar's quote from Rising Apocalypse too. At least two hundred thousand kilometers would be devistated when the BoP would unleash a heavy volly against Gowron's planet-side base. Given they'd be centered around the base itself, we could easily get low gigatons--and higher gigatons if we assume he was talking about the higher end of the scale. Or we could re-affirm TDiC via Booby Trap, where Data notes that it was impressive that primitive species were able to destroy a planet with the weapons of the time--suggesting that the UFP's technology in that regard was superior.

[Mith 0]

And its my problem how? I fully agree. But for the time being canon supports my position firepower given GoO is lower canon.

 

 

 

Here's a hint; when your trying to pretend that the characters are too stupid to live, then you need to rethink your situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but there's this thing called "canon", when it says that the laws of physics in X universe are slightly different than Y-verse we don't use universe Y's laws of physics in place of univese X's. We assume they continue to work as shown in either universe.

 

 

 

So Trek antimatter is capable of blowing off half the atmosphere.

 

 

 

And linky: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4517844&postcount=60

 

 

 

Oh, so instead of actually taking something like mass reduction and applying it logically to make all the canon fit...you'll be more than happy to make up another aspect of technology specifically to cover your ass.

 

 

 

Nice.

 

 

 

Nice lie, asshole. So lets look at this, shall we?

 

 

 

Hey, tell me what part of that post was a lie.

 

 

 

I put an important part in bold for you. But first: Tell me where it says there was another large explosion that wasn't the Pillar of Autumn's fusion cores going off, please. I clearly must be blind given I don't see it there. Now note the bold part that the explosion put a five-kilometer crater in the superdense ring material - not the upper surface with the ground, but the ring material below. So please quantify this material and show it backs up your claim.

 

 

 

Nice strawman there, trying to distract us with the super-dense material bullshit.

 

 

 

First off, you claimed higher calcs via that example, so it's up to you to prove that it'd require a super powerful explosion to destroy it. Fuck, I'd imagine just about anything that's "super dense" would have a hard time resisting a low KT nuclear explosion, let alone a megaton level explosion. Second, what does it matter if it's super dense? Unless its parts are built to withstand a massive nuclear explosion (which it probably wasn't), but then you'd need to prove that, not claim baseless speculation as evidence.

 

 

 

As to your 'we aren't told of anymore explosions!' claim--no, not specifically, but we don't need to. The description of the explosion wasn't told from the Chief's PoV. The author was describing it. Therefore, we don't need the reactors being the massive explosion. And in addition, we're given an abundent amount of information about how the thing is being torn apart; how does that now suggest more explosions?

 

 

 

Not to mention that the explosion we see in the game doesn't match the description of the one in the novel; the one in the novel flattens. The fireball in the game, if my memory is correct, easily exceeded that.

 

 

 

Only the very base of High Charity is made out of a chunk of the Prophet homeworld; the vast majority of it was built by the Covenant.. And Cortana failed to mention any chain-reaction and was very sure that In Amber Clad would blow up the station.

 

 

 

Why does she have to? It's a giant floating city complete with a drive. It doesn't need to be vaporized, mass scattered, and so forth. It just needs to destroy the city itself. A large nuclear explosion would be devistating to the city at close range.

 

 

 

 

 

No evidence? Do you mean the dialogue from the episode? Here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Planets crust would be destroyed within one hour.

 

 

 

No shit. What's your point?

 

 

 

 

 

Thirty percent of the planet's crust destroyed in the opening volley.

 

 

 

It's this strange and mysterious thing we call editing. This tends to happen when you only have forty-five minutes to potray hours worth of bombardment. Of course, anyone whose familiar with the show would know that they cut time out a great deal of time; such as Nog's trip to Earth. We're not told anything about time passing, despite Bajor being light years away from Earth and them being in a small shuttle with limited FTL speeds. They in fact, cut out days worth of travel and made no mention of it at all.

 

 

 

So their too stupid to continue firing and completely destroy the plant in minutes?

 

 

 

And just what is your justification for that? What makes you think they couldn't keep firing? You have no evidence of such. They were after all, completely and utterly safe in their minds. Ie, it would be days before any help could arrive and they'd just vaporized 30% of the crust.

 

 

 

Or how do you explain them destroing thirty percent of the planetary crust with a single volley?

 

 

 

That the helmsman accidently said volley instead of vollies? It makes far, far more sense then assuming that their computers were wrong. Either that or we have to assume they were lying to Garak for security reasons.

 

 

 

I don't deny they can use that level of firepower, but if they do it seems clear that they need to make sure to kill or at least cripple the Destroyer with it on the first try or their dead.

 

 

 

No it doesn't. You've taken two conflicting statements and assumed that they work in a way that is completely and utterly unproven. We're not told of any strains to the weapon systems and in fact, soon after, we know that they're fighting against the Dominion ships. If their ships were crippled, why wasn't it mentioned? At all?

 

 

 

Our most logical choices are actually as follows:

 

 

 

1) The false sensor readings actually did mess with the sensors in a way that the damage was greater--and no one caught it. Unlikely, but possible.

 

 

 

2) The officer misspoke and meant surface.

 

 

 

3) Lovok lied to Garak for security reasons or he himself made a mistake.

 

 

 

4) There was a time cut that wasn't mentioned and te first bombardment actually lasted hours (7.2).

 

 

 

Your argument assumes further information that we're not given.

 

 

 

 

 

Feel free to point out this rather vital Mass Lighting device used to fire the rounds. Because the fact they don't mention what is a vital component to firing the MAC shells at these speeds kind of shoots you down.

 

 

 

Hardly. Or how about you show me their thrusters and engine descriptions? I'm sure it mentions a ton of things about mass reduction.

 

 

 

Go ahead and quantify the superdense ring material then.

 

 

 

Bite me. Prove that the ring was designed to withstand a nuclear explosion. It doesn't matter how fucking dense it is of it's not designed to withstand those forces.

 

 

 

Bungie hates to retcon things you see (stated in the same source as New>Old).

 

 

 

Except of course, when it suits you apparently.

 

 

 

The first thing you do in the event of contradictions in the canon of a the universe in question is to see if the sources can be reconciled. Guess what? In this case it is a simple matter to reconcile them given Slipspace was fucks up anything we can get out of that without another example in a non-Slipspace affected area. The older books Vs the Halo Encyclopedia? Not so much given there is no mention of this vital Mass Reduction technology they need per you to be able to fire their MAC rounds at the speeds needed to hit Covenant ships.

 

 

 

Bla bla bla, shitty attempts at rationalizing the canon to fit your argument.

 

 

 

Been sometime since I watch the episode so I didn't recall that.

 

 

 

It wasn't an episode. It was a movie.

 

 

 

Point still stands though its a double standard given we don't know what the UNSC uses in Archer missiles.

 

 

 

Yeah, except the outlier itself is completely and uttelry nonsensical. It's right up there with 400 GWs. And while I'm waiting, where's that evidence that Halo Legends doesn't count?

[Praeothmin 532]

Here are some more interesting facts I found on the Halo Wikia:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Halo MAC guns

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"That MAC gun (Super MAC) can put a round clean through a Covenant Capital Ship."

 

 

 

—Sergeant Johnson, talking to the Master Chief on board the Orbital Defense Platform Cairo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Smaller shipborne versions (62.5Ktons) can take as many as three hits to overload a shield while an orbital platform (52Gton) can put a hole through any Covenant vessel even with fully charged shields.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It takes only three standard MAC (62.5Ktons) shots to go through a Covenant ship, while no ship can resist even 1 super MAC...

 

 

 

 

Archer Missiles

 

Against the Covenant, however, they realized that the defensive measures employed by the enemy ships such as energy shields and point defense lasers suddenly rendered Archer missiles obsolete - lasers were able to pick off up to half of the missiles launched, and those that hit were rarely enough to penetrate the shields.

 

using the more devastating but slower-firing Magnetic Accelerator Cannons to break through the shields.

 

 

 

Archer missiles are weaker then even shipboarne MACs.

 

 

 

 

 

About the 12 Covenant ships destroyed by 14 mines:

 

 

 

 

 

 

HORNET Mines are a type of UNSC ordnance commonly carried aboard UNSC Prowlers. They are stealthy, plutonium-cored, nuclear devices with a nominal yield of 2.1 megatons (14 mines with a total yield of 30 megatons works out to approximately 2.1 megatons each).

 

 

 

During the Battle of Onyx, the UNSC Dusk laid a field of HORNETs, destroying twelve and damaging four Covenant warships.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It took a TOTAL of 30Mtons to destroy 12 fully shielded Covenant ships, not 14 mines of 30Mtons each...

 

 

 

 

 

Plasma Torpedoes can be evaded with a full thruster boost at the last second, and if you destroy the firing ship, most torpedoes lose their target or detonate...

 

 

 

So I give it still to the E-D because of greater resilience, better shields, and more powerful weapons...

 

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Here are some more interesting facts I found on the Halo Wikia:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It takes only three standard MAC (62.5Ktons) shots to go through a Covenant ship, while no ship can resist even 1 super MAC...

 

 

 

 

Which is of course from the outdated page. Though it doesn't matter since from what I hear the cashgrab by 343/Microsoft put out a version of TFoR that kept the same numbers for MACs and is full of MORE errors than the first!

 

 

 

Also I point to Halo 3 in which we see MAC round shots easily in the low double digit MT range and the RoF is 2 seconds between each volley. Now taking the average charge time(s) that the books go for your looking at assuming each shot in The Storm was 5 MT between 125 (30 second charge time) up to 250 MT (60 second charge) as low and upper low ends for a fully charge MAC gun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Archer missiles are weaker then even shipboarne MACs.

 

 

 

And means what? We know they can easily accelerate after Halo ships which have consistent acceleration outside of a few outliers in the hundreds to thousands of Gs.

 

 

 

About the 12 Covenant ships destroyed by 14 mines:

 

 

 

 

 

 

It took a TOTAL of 30Mtons to destroy 12 fully shielded Covenant ships, not 14 mines of 30Mtons each...

 

 

 

And Halopedia is f**king wrong because EACH MINE WAS 30 MEGATONS. I have to ask why you are using outdated pages from Halopedia which can't even get a single quote right?

 

 

 

So I give it still to the E-D because of greater resilience, better shields, and more powerful weapons...

 

 

 

For the time being I'm just conceding. See what the new and hopefully error free version of the Halo Encyclopedia (IIRC there is suppose to be a new version coming out that is updated for Halo: Reach) and what Halo Reach has to say on the issue.

[enigma 521]

Is there a source that plainly states that the Hornet mines are 30MT a piece?

 

 

 

It is rather a moot point since photon and quantum torps can also be used as mines and they have greater yield.

 

 

 

As for the Super MAC, pretty useless as they can be dodged. Fired from afar and the E-D dodges and the risk is too great they wait until the E-D is close enough so that it cannot dodge. Doing so risks being attacked and hit by phaser fire and photon torpedoes.

 

 

 

How many MACs can a warship have?

[Praeothmin 532]

First of all, no Covenant ship will have a MAC gun, I'm simply using them to show what can destroy Covenant ships.

 

 

 

Prophet, Shipborne MACs killing Covenant ships in three shots is in all the books, TFoR, GoO, all of them...

 

 

 

And as for the Hornet mines, here's the exact Ghost of Onys passage:

 

(p.326, 2006 edition) In the last fifteen minutes, the Dusk had seeded the space on the dark side of the moon of Onys with 14 nuclear mines - 30 Megaton yield with vacuum enhanced loads.

 

 

 

While this passage is indeed vague enough that both interpretation is possible, the Halo wiki lends credence to the 30Mtons total, so does the 62.5Kton ship-MAC rounds destroying Covenant ships with three hits.

 

A single Photon Torpedo can do the same, and the E-D can fire burts of 5 at one target, plus Phaser strikes galore...

[enigma 521]

That sentence alone can give credence to both sides. Either it means 30MT total or 30MT yield per mine. Neverthless, if by going by the TNG TM (I prefer to use the TM since at least it gives a figure rather than speculate for eternity for its yield) then a single Photon torpedo has a yield greater than two Hornet mines put together, while a Quantum would be 4x that number of mines.

 

 

 

So a single Photon torpedo can destroy a Covenant warship. In fact it is overkill.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

First of all, no Covenant ship will have a MAC gun, I'm simply using them to show what can destroy Covenant ships.

 

 

 

And it was out of date until the numbers from the "new" edition of TFoR came. Which means you were ignoring Halo canon policy by attempting to use an older source over the new one (the scene isn't even consistent given the Covenant ship was 3000 kilometers away and the MAC round hit in only several seconds). So a bit dishonest there wouldn't you say?

 

 

 

Prophet, Shipborne MACs killing Covenant ships in three shots is in all the books, TFoR, GoO, all of them...

 

 

 

ANd where did I say they didn't? Their shields at best reach into the low GT range if we double the yield to 10 MT (a far more likely yield given the size and the duration of the explosions).

 

 

 

And as for the Hornet mines, here's the exact Ghost of Onys passage:

 

 

 

 

 

While this passage is indeed vague enough that both interpretation is possible, the Halo wiki lends credence to the 30Mtons total, so does the 62.5Kton ship-MAC rounds destroying Covenant ships with three hits.

 

 

 

Seems I was mistaken, but I take the 30MT pure nuke given I recall this being backpack size like the 30MT ones used by the Spartans in TFoR. Start of the TFoR also now overrules this given that the Spartans only consider the 30MT nuke being able to take out a Covenant ship after it dropped shields in atmosphere.

 

 

 

Also why don't you look at the current MAC page? That one last I checked used the Halo Encyclopedia 40% and 50% SPL... bit dishonest using an out of date page? Not that it really matters now since the best example for MAC firepower is now The Storm.

 

 

 

A single Photon Torpedo can do the same, and the E-D can fire burts of 5 at one target, plus Phaser strikes galore...

 

 

 

And as I said I for the time being conede given the Halo Encyclopedia states are thrown out now (Cue Mith's head imploding in 5...4...3...2...1 ).

[Khas 12,158]

*gets Prophet's flame-retardant suit ready, for what good it'll do him.*

[Ado Mortumee 500]

*gets Prophet's flame-retardant suit ready, for what good it'll do him.*

 

"What do I need that for? Didn't I just concede the debate at least until more sources on Covenant firepower come out? Ent-D wins."

[Khas 12,158]

No, I mean from Mith. Mith might still be bitter. Just givin' ya a heads-up.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

No, I mean from Mith. Mith might still be bitter. Just givin' ya a heads-up.

 

 

 

And I am still bitter at Mith. I still call bullshit on his ML Tech being used to fire MAC Guns claims (like his "Hey! Why don't we assume without any reason beyond my say-so that they just left out the ML tech in the H Enc.! And I'll also pull out of thin air that they need to come to a stop to turn off the ML tech!" Really, he has no proof for this claim and I already proven to him with that link that even with ML tech at 4000-6000 tons their still in the GT per second range on their reactors). Or his claim that the large explosion at the end of CE is not the Autumn... once again completely unsupported. You think the author be nice enough to, ya' now, mention the reactor that must have been hit when the Autumn went off that really destroyed the ring. There is also his reading comprehension failure:

 

 

 

Page 340 of The Flood

 

 

 

Both up- and down-spin of the explosion, the

 

fireball flattened the and sterilized the surface terrain.

 

 

 

The fireball didn't flatten out inside the atmosphere it "flattend and sterilized the surface terrain".

 

 

 

And if he really is bitter he can take it up with my new bodyguard: Dark Helmet. Remember this line: "Yes, that!" - Dark Helmet as he crushed some poor AssHole's nuts:P

[Khas 12,158]

I voted for Helmet in his fight against Palpy.

[enigma 521]

I voted for Helmet in his fight against Palpy.

 

 

 

Yet this helps the Covenant or the E-D, how?

 

 

 

Posrep for you anyways.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

I voted for Helmet in his fight against Palpy.

 

 

 

I saw that.

 

 

 

Though what do you think on the above? I mean he has no proof for ML tech being used on weapons or a second explosion on Alpha Halo.

 

 

 

Anyways: Mith, I concede and leave this debate, ok? So you don't have to bother replying to the above, ok? I've have a bad enough day as it is.

[enigma 521]

PosRep for you too PoT.

[Airlocke 12,014]

I do believe that Mith is a woman, Prophet. May want to do some editing on that post of yours.

[Praeothmin 532]

Prophet, I don't have the latest editions, so if you have them, could you provide the numbers it uses?

 

 

 

Also, game scenes override books and comics?

 

This MAc doesn't fire anywhere near the speed of light, since if you look closely enough, you can actually see the round leave the guns:

 

 

 

 

If we go by the 40% c of ship MACS, it gives us 260 something Gtons, except then even 14 30Mton nuclear warheads (if we ascribe to the 30Mtons per warhead interpretation) shouldn't even phase the 12 Covenant ships that were destroyed by these mines, since they can take two 260Gtons MAC rounds before shield failure, and a third one to destroy the ship (if we believe the Halopedia numbers).

 

You see, the Halopedia is like the SW ICS:

 

A pure wankfest that ignores all lower showings and gives us unsupported numbers that even the books cannot reconciliate...

 

 

 

So until you provide passages from the newer books, or visuals that support you numbers, I'll keep giving it to the E-D.

 

And, again, one instance unsupported by the rest of the books or game visuals doesn't give us "standard weapons yields", else I'll only use the Trek higher numbers as standard yields also...

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Prophet, I don't have the latest editions, so if you have them, could you provide the numbers it uses?

 

 

 

The new edition of TFoR? Don't have it but what I hear is it is 99% (just 27 new pages) the samething with more errors but keeps everything pretty much the same otherwise as the first edition.

 

 

 

Also, game scenes override books and comics?

 

This MAc doesn't fire anywhere near the speed of light, since if you look closely enough, you can actually see the round leave the guns:

 

 

 

 

Which requires us to ignore The Storm scene from Halo 3 (being the latest game at the time it overrules the silly sub-kiloton bullshit we're seeing in H 2) and the fact that we can not even see the Covenant ships when the fleet and ODP's open fire. Can't really use the scene since it can support both of us here.

 

 

 

If we go by the 40% c of ship MACS, it gives us 260 something Gtons, except then even 14 30Mton nuclear warheads (if we ascribe to the 30Mtons per warhead interpretation) shouldn't even phase the 12 Covenant ships that were destroyed by these mines, since they can take two 260Gtons MAC rounds before shield failure, and a third one to destroy the ship (if we believe the Halopedia numbers).

 

 

 

Halopedia? I am not using the site, I'm using the official canon book the Halo Encyclopedia. Also the yield is 1.17 Teratons, I've run the numbers myself on the SDN calculator and then run them there a conversion site and like other calcs before it came out to 1.17 Teratons.

 

 

 

You see, the Halopedia is like the SW ICS:

 

A pure wankfest that ignores all lower showings and gives us unsupported numbers that even the books cannot reconciliate...

 

 

 

And until the new cashgrab by 343/Microsoft it overruled older showings per the Halo Canon policy given by Bungie that in the event of a contradiction that could not be reconciled the latest canon is the superior canon.

 

 

 

So until you provide passages from the newer books, or visuals that support you numbers, I'll keep giving it to the E-D.

 

 

 

You really seem to be having epic reading comprehension failure here. I already gave you the quote from the canon book the Halo Encyclopedia, and now that what is the "new" edition of TFoR goes back to the older numbers the best we're getting out of MAC guns is several thousand kps going by the ranges they fight at. And I conceded at least for the time being that the E-D wins.

 

 

 

And, again, one instance unsupported by the rest of the books or game visuals doesn't give us "standard weapons yields", else I'll only use the Trek higher numbers as standard yields also...

 

 

 

The older books meaned nothing (in fact they supported it when it comes to power output see my link to Nattou's calcs again wtih an ingame event to support it to boot) and the games had yet to directly contradict it in such a way that it could not be reconciled and have events such as the Autumn going off and the massive accelerations that support massive power generation.

[Tyralak 12,068]

I do believe that Mith is a woman, Prophet. May want to do some editing on that post of yours.

 

 

 

No, he's not. He was pulling our leg.