Praeothmin 532 Posted June 25, 2010 Because of the "Forerunners vs the Empire" thread, I feel the Covenant Firepower in Halo have been exagerrated by a lot of Halites... So I propose that we do in this thread what we did in the ISD one... Derail it and insult each other... I mean, quantify the Firepower of the Halo universe, using books and games as canon, for the UNSC and the Covenant. From there, we may be able to extrapolate the Firepower of the Forerunners... I'll re-read my books again, but in the meantime, people who already have information can post it here. And Prophet, we include ALL examples of Firepower, not just the High level ones you usually like to use... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted June 26, 2010 This should be good. I'll do a bit of research too. I should coax Mirah back here to join in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted June 27, 2010 Just the events I can recall off the top of my head: 1. During the Prologue of Halo: The Fall of Reach the Spartans are sent on a mission to plant a 30 MT Havoc tactical nuclear warhead at the landing zone of Covenant ships so that when the next ship arrived and dropped shields to allow troops to disembark it would receive a 30 MT surprise. 2. Pg. 8 of H:TFoR states that a Covenant fleet of 36 ships (Destroyers and Cruisers) vaporized all bodies of water on Jericho VII in 1 hour. Given the planet is described as a “paradise†it is safe to assume it has oceans similar to Earth and therefore per AtomicRockets.com requires 1 Exaton to vaporize. 3. Around page 100-120 a the Captain of the UNSC Commonwealth (Frigate) states his ship can cross 80 million kilometers in one hour. 4. After the above a small Covenant ship a third the size of the Commonwealth jumps in 3000 kilometers off the prow and sets off alarms. 5. After this the Commonwealth fires it’s MAC gun at the Covenant ship; stated velocity of round was 30,000 meters per second (which is inconsistent with the previously mention 3000 meters and other instances of Halo space battles). The round manages to cross the distance between the two ships in seconds and hit’s the Covenant ship on the prow taking down the shields and leaving a crumpled hole in it. The Covenant ship shrugs this off and continues after the Commonwealth. 6. The Commonwealth and Covenant ship trade volleys - another MAC round and an undersized/powered Plasma Torpedo - the Covenant ships takes the MAC round to the side and the round tears clean through it. The Plasma Torpedo continue after the Commonwealth and impact. 7. After the above the Captain of the Commonwealth launches Longsword Interceptor Fighters to delay the Covenant ship so the Commonwealth could move far enough out that it could safely fire a Shiva Nuclear Missile set to go off 100 meters from the Covenant ship. The Captain consider the Shiva warhead a threat to his frigate at hundreds to thousands of kilometers away. The Covenant ship is engulfed in the nuclear blast and the bridge crew cheers until it is shown that the Covenant ship simply shrugged off the nuke with it’s shields. The Covenant ship limped away after this to make repairs. 8. Sometime after they have reached the facility and tested the armor the Covenant ship returns. The Captain of the Commonwealth says he will draw the Covenant away to buy them more time and stated range was IIRC 20 million kilometers. After this the Spartans head topside and take a Pelican dropship into space. 9. The Spartans decide to attempt to board the Covenant ship and detonate the missiles the Pelican carriers near the Covenant ship’s reactor. The Covenant ship is stated as doing 100 million kilometers per hour and the Spartans and the Archer missile cover fire they call on are able to quickly accelerate to the same speed. 10. This has nothing to do with firepower but with range: The Battle of Sigma Ocantus IV (sp?) when the Covenant ships arrive the two frigates engage Commander Keyes Destroyer and stated time to impact is 19 seconds as the ship accelerates away towards the Covenant Destroyer and Carrier heading for Sigma Ocantus IV. We continue to get stated times to impact and at the last one which is two seconds state range was 300,000 kilometers. So as a low end Covenant Plasma Torpedoes can still be controlled and contain over say 400,000 kilometers (which is being very generous given multiple instances of Halo ships crossing ten thousand kilometers in less than two minutes) and high end would be 9 light seconds or so. 11. Pg. 282 of H:TFoR gives us a speed and weight for a SMAC Platform round: There were twenty Super MAC guns in orbit. They could accelerate a three-thousand-ton projectile to point four-tenths the speed of light--and place that projectile with pin point accuracy. Depending on how you taking this that is either 4% the speed of light which gives us 50 Gigatons or 40% the speed of light which gives us 5.8 Teratons. Pg. 296 of H:TFoR has now Captain Keyes mention this: They had one advantage: the MAC orbital guns around Reach--the UNSC’s most powerful nonnuclear weapon. Some called them the “Super†MAC or the “big stickâ€. Given the Shiva is the only nuke not given a yield it is safe to say from this information a standard payload for one is more than 50 Gigatons at least. 12. When the Super Cruiser attacks with it’s Energy Projector we are given a range for the ships it attacked being 100,000 kilometer. After this the orbital guns fire a volley at it which takes IIRC 8 seconds to reach it. Given IIRC the one Destroyer at 100,000 kilometers had moved to engage it we do not know the distance between the Super Cruiser and the orbital guns. 13. The Pillar of Autumn moves to engage the Super Cruiser and attack waves consist of 3 MAC rounds being fired alongside 500 odd Archer missiles; this is enough to down the shields and allow a hand full of the Archers to impact the hull leaving pockmarks. Keyes has Cortana launch the remote controlled Longsword with a Shiva warhead onboard along with another MAC and Archer volley and crash the Longsword into the Super Cruiser’s hull as the heavily damaged Pillar of Autumn makes best speed out of the blast zone. This is the first time Keyes had ever hopped a Covenant ship’s shields held so the PoA was not damaged or destroyed by the blast. Range is similar to that of the Commonwealth’s Captain feeling threaten. 14. After the above the Pillar of Autumn does 28 odd million kilometers in under ten minutes IIRC when they go back to pick up the Spartans. Now onto Halo: First Strike: 1. The starting of the limited glassing of Reach has plasma torpedo impacts kicking up millions of tons of debris. 2. The captured flagship Ascendant Justice dives into Thresholds atmosphere and is knocked to low into it for the ship to escape. This is an outlier next to both TFoR and later in the book and the games themselves. 3. When searching for a ship to help power make quick Slipspace jumps above Reach Cortana states it would take her an hour to break orbit from around an Earth like world. Once again a complete outlier - for an in game example there is the Shadow of Intent easily pulling 28 Gs at the end of the game when leaving Earth. 4. During the battle in Slipspace the Ascendant Justice with a UNSC frigate tacked on top is able to cross 10,000 kilometers in 18 seconds. Link to some calcs done on this and a similar in-game event: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost.php?p=4517844&postcount=60 5. After the Slipspace battle they arrive in the system with the rebel asteroid base. The Vice Admiral pulls a bluff with their only remaining operational Plasma Turret to destroy a 3 kilometer asteroid. This can go from MT to low GT range if I recall the calcs correctly. 6. More acceleration and distance: Covenant ship arrives at 200,000 kilometers and starts to quickly close range as the Gettysburg-Ascendant Justice flees behind a moon size rock 20,000 kilometers away. 7. The 30 kilometer in diameter station Unyielding Hierophant is stated to have a shield system powerful enough to repel the collision of a small moon. That is all I can recall off the top of my head from the books at this time. I’ll go through and get all the quotes for the above later. For some stuff I already have on hand from the games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhpgE_LWi8 Halo 1 we have a Longsword crossing 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds. Fireball from the Pillar of Autumn alone (per the Flood) leaves a 5 kilometer crater and weakens a large section of the ring causing it to break apart. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yygn_vIH5a4#t=0m45s Halo 3 And as for indisputable canon proof of GT-TT+ yields: Gruntipedia on A. J. Johnson, aka God. In fact, his greatest joke may have been "Laugh." At which point, an entire Covenant armada lost control of their vessals and crashed them into Kashyyyk, the Wookie home-world, cratering it into a gray barren wasteland. Today, this place is known as the moon. He can take out an entire Covenant fleet with a well place one liner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mith 0 Posted June 28, 2010 Just the events I can recall off the top of my head: 1. During the Prologue of Halo: The Fall of Reach the Spartans are sent on a mission to plant a 30 MT Havoc tactical nuclear warhead at the landing zone of Covenant ships so that when the next ship arrived and dropped shields to allow troops to disembark it would receive a 30 MT surprise. Okay...and? It just proves that a 30 megaton nuke would take out a Covenant sh9ip. 2. Pg. 8 of H:TFoR states that a Covenant fleet of 36 ships (Destroyers and Cruisers) vaporized all bodies of water on Jericho VII in 1 hour. Given the planet is described as a “paradise†it is safe to assume it has oceans similar to Earth and therefore per AtomicRockets.com requires 1 Exaton to vaporize. Highly doubtful given that decades later Reach is in the middle of a nuclear winter. 5. After this the Commonwealth fires it’s MAC gun at the Covenant ship; stated velocity of round was 30,000 kilometers per second (which is inconsistent with the previously mention 3000 kilometers and other instances of Halo space battles). The round manages to cross the distance between the two ships in seconds and hit’s the Covenant ship on the prow taking down the shields and leaving a crumpled hole in it. The Covenant ship shrugs this off and continues after the Commonwealth. It should be noted that 1) they're working off mass reduction technology (ie, the low mass of their ships) and 2) the effective yield of the MAC is going to be determined on how fast it and the target is moving. 7. After the above the Captain of the Commonwealth launches Longsword Interceptor Fighters to delay the Covenant ship so the Commonwealth could move far enough out that it could safely fire a Shiva Nuclear Missile set to go off 100 meters from the Covenant ship. The Captain consider the Shiva warhead a threat to his frigate at hundreds to thousands of kilometers away. The Covenant ship is engulfed in the nuclear blast and the bridge crew cheers until it is shown that the Covenant ship simply shrugged off the nuke with it’s shields. The Covenant ship limped away after this to make repairs. What is the stated yield for a Shiva again? 11. Pg. 282 of H:TFoR gives us a speed and weight for a SMAC Platform round: Depending on how you taking this that is either 4% the speed of light which gives us 50 Gigatons or 40% the speed of light which gives us 5.8 Teratons. And absolute hogwash. Again, we know that their ships are actually rated to be lighter than air. There has to be a massive amount of MR and what they said was simply the original weight. And again, you have to take into account relative speed or it's worthless. Any ship moving faster than .4c is going to easily reduce its boom factor to zilch. Pg. 296 of H:TFoR has now Captain Keyes mention this: Given the Shiva is the only nuke not given a yield it is safe to say from this information a standard payload for one is more than 50 Gigatons at least. No it isn't. First of all, you're assuming a yield far greater than anything they've been able to show before in regards to nuclear capability. Second, this quote outright rapes the 80 megaton bunker that they considered to be a big deal at teh start of the war. And yet you're claiming they can create nukes in the double digit gigaton range? How is that bunker at all effective? Your argument doesn't make any sense. Now onto Halo: First Strike: 1. The starting of the limited glassing of Reach has plasma torpedo impacts kicking up millions of tons of debris. Overruled by higher canon, where we see that the 'glassing' is in fact, just turning the planet into a nuclear winterstorm. 5. After the Slipspace battle they arrive in the system with the rebel asteroid base. The Vice Admiral pulls a bluff with their only remaining operational Plasma Turret to destroy a 3 kilometer asteroid. This can go from MT to low GT range if I recall the calcs correctly. Try 27 megatons according to Wong's calculator. That makes it vary depending on how the weapon works. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxhpgE_LWi8 Halo 1 we have a Longsword crossing 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds. Fireball from the Pillar of Autumn alone (per the Flood) leaves a 5 kilometer crater and weakens a large section of the ring causing it to break apart. That would put the Pillar of Autumn's total yield at about 598 megatons. Impressive, but not really gigaton level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yygn_vIH5a4#t=0m45s Halo 3 And as for indisputable canon proof of GT-TT+ yields: Vid doesn't work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted June 29, 2010 Okay...and? It just proves that a 30 megaton nuke would take out a Covenant sh9ip. Da OP asked for all firepower numbers. And by Halos canon policy it doesn't prove anything yet since New>Old. The new editions of the first three Halo books (IIRC next month) though will really clear everything up - if 343 keeps things consistent for once. I really doubt that. Highly doubtful given that decades later Reach is in the middle of a nuclear winter. You mean the planet that had a Forerunner relic on it and tens of thousands Covenant troops overruning it groundside as ships did a limited glassing opeartion to take out the humans? It should be noted that 1) they're working off mass reduction technology (ie, the low mass of their ships) And? Even if they do use this for their ships to get them to the silly 4000-8000 ton weight class there is no proof of them using it with weapons (also if I wasn't clear enough the 3000 kilometers was the distance between the Covenant and UNSC ship when the MAC gun was fired). and 2) the effective yield of the MAC is going to be determined on how fast it and the target is moving. The Covenant ship was 'holding it's ground' well the Commonwealth continue towards the planet 'backwards'. What is the stated yield for a Shiva again? Never given one. If Halopedia is to be trusted on this though the yields are variable. Though there is support for far more than MT range yield (suchs as when UNSC Captains felt their ships were at risk even hundreds or thousands of kilometers from the nuke when it went off). Here is an interesting quote I just found in an old thread over at SB: Everest launched everything she had. Archer missiles rocketed out of the gravity well of the planet along with a dozen Shiva nuclear warheads - while another hundred Shiva missiles plunged deeper into Viperidae's churning clouds. The gas giant's hydrogen-helium atmosphere was so dense, so compressed, that if it had a tiny fraction more mass it would have ignited and become the smallest of brown dwarf stars. The Archer missiles had no effect on the Covenant shields. They did, however, provide a dazzling display of pyrotechnics; flashes of white and blue and red and obscuring clouds of propellant. The nukes launched out of the gravity well exploded. The lead Covenant ship was destroyed - an insignificant loss compared to the two hundred remaining Covenant vessels moving closer, now near enough to punch through the magnetosphere and obliterate Everest. But the vast majority of the nuclear ordnance had not been aimed at the Covenant - rather, they fell deeper into the atmosphere of Viperidae. And detonated. One hundred dots of light flickered deep within the thick atmosphere, compressing the already superpressurised hydrogen - adding the needed spark of fission that flashed through and around the gas giant's surface, sending helixing tendrils of solar plasma about the planetary circumference. For an instant, Viperidae was a star. Countless tons of hydrogen blasted off its outer layers and filled space with plasma - washed everything away with a blaze. The expanding ball of destruction slowed and dissipated. Until only a cloud of glowing haze reminded ... and in the centre, the dark cinder of Viperidae. Every ship in the Covenant fleet had been destroyed. - Halo: Evolutions, pgs. 481-482 And absolute hogwash. How is it hogwash? Those are the yields you get for 3000 ton round at those speeds. Again, we know that their ships are actually rated to be lighter than air. And has what to do with the weight of a MAC round? If it used MR tech they would give us the reduced weight like they do every other time. There has to be a massive amount of MR and what they said was simply the original weight. So this one time they give the original weight yet every other time they tell us the weight it is after the MR tech is in effect and fail to mention what the post-MR weight is... right. And you of course have proof that even if the UNSC has MR tech that they can create a device small enough to fit in something only slightly large than the Master Chief as seen in Halo 2 in the Fire Control Center? And again, you have to take into account relative speed or it's worthless. Any ship moving faster than .4c is going to easily reduce its boom factor to zilch. Unless said ship is heading right into the round. No it isn't. First of all, you're assuming a yield far greater than anything they've been able to show before in regards to nuclear capability. There are two times in TFoR were Shiva warheads are consider a threat to UNSC ships hundreds-thousands of kilometers away. This is not out of line with the shown capabilities of a standard Shiva warhead. Second, this quote outright rapes the 80 megaton bunker that they considered to be a big deal at teh start of the war. And yet you're claiming they can create nukes in the double digit gigaton range? How is that bunker at all effective? Your argument doesn't make any sense. Two instances of a Shiva warhead being consider a threat to UNSC ships at hundreds-thousands of kilometers away plus this. That is two showings of GT+ range and one of the UNSC's best Captains consider at least some nukes to be more powerful than an SMAC which a Shiva warhead fits. Bulk of evidence is in my favor it seems. Overruled by higher canon, where we see that the 'glassing' is in fact, just turning the planet into a nuclear winterstorm. Harvest? Forerunner relic that needs to be retrieve first and we see them using Excavation Beams to glass the planet and not Plasma torpedoes. The first Halo: Reach trailer shows clearly that Bungie still considers Plasma Torpedoes a major glassing weapon when we see GT range fireballs on Reach. Try 27 megatons according to Wong's calculator. That makes it vary depending on how the weapon works. Which is a low end assuming th center of the asteroid. The torpedo heated parts of the asteroid up to white-hot over several seconds before punching through with some plasma left over, the asteroid shattered due to uneven internal heating and part of it was IIRC vaporized. Still triple MT at least. That would put the Pillar of Autumn's total yield at about 598 megatons. Impressive, but not really gigaton level. Assuming that the ring is really no tougher than normal planetary crust. Which it is clearly not when we look at the firebal which is multi-tereaton based off of the size, and per the Flood the Autumn is the only source for the explosion. Vid doesn't work. I'll see if I can find a better link later. Its the cutscene where they escape from the ring and within minutes are far enough away that you can see the entire ring in the shot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Oragahn 0 Posted December 10, 2010 Halo: Reach basically reboots all that and makes it simple: Glassing is a lie, made the AIs, a massive exaggeration. It's made crystal clear at the end of the game, after we see Reach several years later, with the voice over stating that it was glassed. What I'd like to know is the canonical status of the Live action ad for that game. The one with the Spartan throwing a bomb while inside a destroyer or something and blowing it up from the inside. It's the only time I recall seeing the shields of a Covenant ship in action... and failing btw. What we see is that the bomb was damn heavy, but the explosion was not so impressive. Perhaps several dozens kilotons top, considering that a 1 KT explosion isn't very impressive at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 12, 2010 Halo: Reach basically reboots all that and makes it simple: Glassing is a lie, made the AIs, a massive exaggeration. It's made crystal clear at the end of the game, after we see Reach several years later, with the voice over stating that it was glassed. What I'd like to know is the canonical status of the Live action ad for that game. The one with the Spartan throwing a bomb while inside a destroyer or something and blowing it up from the inside. It's the only time I recall seeing the shields of a Covenant ship in action... and failing btw. What we see is that the bomb was damn heavy, but the explosion was not so impressive. Perhaps several dozens kilotons top, considering that a 1 KT explosion isn't very impressive at all. What exactly do you think a 1KT explosion looks like outside an atmosphere? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 13, 2010 It goes "Boom", only silently? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 13, 2010 It goes "Boom", only silently? Everything I've read suggests that they look a heck of a lot like an old style camera flash - even at the gigaton range. It's not supposed to be very impressive at all, and scaling the blast is almost impossible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 14, 2010 Everything I've read suggests that they look a heck of a lot like an old style camera flash - even at the gigaton range. It's not supposed to be very impressive at all, and scaling the blast is almost impossible. Wouldn't a more energetic bomb make a slightly longer, or bigger flash, since there's a lot more energy in a 1 GT explosion than there is in a 1 KT explosion... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted December 14, 2010 This is what a nuclear explosion looks like in space (footage from old nuclear tests in space): Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted December 14, 2010 This is what a nuclear explosion looks like in space (footage from old nuclear tests in space): Actually that is the starfish prime shot detonated at 400km where there is a tenuous atmosphere present Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airlocke 12,014 Posted December 15, 2010 And Prophet, we include ALL examples of Firepower, not just the High level ones you usually like to use... 2. Pg. 8 of H:TFoR states that a Covenant fleet of 36 ships (Destroyers and Cruisers) vaporized all bodies of water on Jericho VII in 1 hour. Given the planet is described as a “paradise†it is safe to assume it has oceans similar to Earth and therefore per AtomicRockets.com requires 1 Exaton to vaporize. LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 16, 2010 Wouldn't a more energetic bomb make a slightly longer, or bigger flash, since there's a lot more energy in a 1 GT explosion than there is in a 1 KT explosion... Not on a scale that humans can measure. The energy is still released FAR faster then we can distinguish, and is far more than we can distinguish. It only takes a long time in the atmosphere due to secondary effects. And yes, that is an atmospheric shot, no one has detonated a nuke in actual space as far as I am aware. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 16, 2010 Not on a scale that humans can measure. The energy is still released FAR faster then we can distinguish, and is far more than we can distinguish. So then, there wouldn't be a difference in the intensity of the flash between a 1 KT and a 1 MT explosion? Even to the naked eye? If we can clearly see the explosion, doesn't this then tell us it wasn't that energetic? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 19, 2010 So then, there wouldn't be a difference in the intensity of the flash between a 1 KT and a 1 MT explosion? Even to the naked eye? Not from a distance where you can see the targets, you still lose the camera/eyeball. If we can clearly see the explosion, doesn't this then tell us it wasn't that energetic? Probably. What was my point again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted December 19, 2010 Not from a distance where you can see the targets, you still lose the camera/eyeball. Ah, ok... Probably. What was my point again? I don't know about your original point, but your original question was what Oragahn expected a 1 KT explosion in space to look like... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Oragahn 0 Posted December 24, 2010 Actually that is the starfish prime shot detonated at 400km where there is a tenuous atmosphere present The interesting part is how the plasma still considerably slows down. Yet at such altitudes, a low Earth orbit can be maintained with little effort. Of course an artificial satellite will have more momentum per cubic centimeter than super hot gases, but it's very cool nonetheless regarding what explosions would look like inside nebulas for example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted December 24, 2010 The interesting part is how the plasma still considerably slows down. What plasma? Yet at such altitudes, a low Earth orbit can be maintained with little effort. Are you insane? Of course an artificial satellite will have more momentum per cubic centimeter than super hot gases, Wow, that's the dumbest way to say density I've ever heard. but it's very cool nonetheless regarding what explosions would look like inside nebulas for example. You're Jason, aren't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Oragahn 0 Posted December 31, 2010 What plasma? The blue one in your body. Are you insane? YEEEAAAHH!!!! Wow, that's the dumbest way to say density I've ever heard. Good. It means you read it and understood it. Otherwise, you'd have thought it was a very smart description of the concept "density". You're Jason, aren't you? yes but im steel takign english curses Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
