What be fire power needed to destroy BOP with shield up

[Tyralak 12,068]

Yeah, that was one of the dumber ones.

 

 

 

Another of my favorites was the "the visible bolt is just an aiming tool" but "ST ECM/SENSORS SUXORS!!!!111!!11!!!1"

 

 

 

Not saying that the latter isn't true, but claiming that you need a visual aiming device and then saying ST electronic warfare\sensors suck?

 

 

 

Oh yeah. I remember that one lol. That and the "Borg can't adapt because TL aren't frequency based" Even Wong tried this argument. ALL ENERGY FUCKING HAS FREQUENCY! And yet people used to make that argument with a straight face. Tesla would have facepalmed had he read some of this.

[Questor 501]

Oh yeah. I remember that one lol. That and the "Borg can't adapt because TL aren't frequency based" Even Wong tried this argument. ALL ENERGY HAS FREQUENCY! And yet poeple used to make that argument with a straight face. Tesla would have facepalmed had he read some of this.

 

 

 

Well, mine is similar, but it argues that the "frequency" being blocked is more related to the NDF. Maybe the "tuning" of the shields prevents the NDF from happening, reducing phasers to straight energy transfer (of which we know they have little).

[Tyralak 12,068]

Well, mine is similar, but it argues that the "frequency" being blocked is more related to the NDF. Maybe the "tuning" of the shields prevents the NDF from happening, reducing phasers to straight energy transfer (of which we know they have little).

 

 

 

That's possible, but then it would mean that the Borg were well defended against advanced races, but less advanced races who were still using brute force DET weapons would have been able to mop the floor with them. That doesn't really make sense.

[Questor 501]

That's possible, but then it would mean that the Borg were well defended against advanced races, but less advanced races who were still using brute force DET weapons would have been able to mop the floor with them. That doesn't really make sense.

 

 

 

Except it is exactly what we SAW! Also, why would the borg care about assimilating anything that's hitting them with sticks and slugs? Destroying life on a planet isn't that hard, even in ST.

 

 

 

It could easily be that NDF is something you tend to discover along with warp drive, or even inertial compensators.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Except it is exactly what we SAW! Also, why would the borg care about assimilating anything that's hitting them with sticks and slugs? Destroying life on a planet isn't that hard, even in ST.

 

 

 

It could easily be that NDF is something you tend to discover along with warp drive, or even inertial compensators.

 

 

 

Where did we see that? And no, I don't mean slugs and sticks. By DET I mean TL type weapons. It's very unlikely that every race in the galaxy would be using NDF weaponry. It's not reasonable to think that all civilizations in the galaxy developed the same solutions to problems. For example: Federation and most other races power their ships and warp drives with antimatter. The Romulans don't. They use artificial quantum singularities for their power source. We know for a fact that the Lysians use heavy laser cannons (A DET weapon) on their destroyers. It's also a faulty assumption to assume that since a civilization hasn't advanced much in one area, that they wouldn't be of value to the Borg in other areas. Different cultures focus their advancement in different areas. We see that now, on Earth.

 

 

 

Not to mention, that the Federation and other races were at war with the Borg for a good long time. It would mean that NOBODY of ANY race said "Hey! Let's use a direct energy weapon, since they seem to adapt to NDF weapons."

[Questor 501]

Where did we see that? And no, I don't mean slugs and sticks.

 

 

 

I was specifically referring to KET. I.E. phaser rifle butts, bullets, fists.

 

 

 

 

By DET I mean TL type weapons.

 

 

 

 

Since turbolasers seem to be some kind of energy released when the containment field is breached (total guess). The closest thing would be the way plasma torpedos were described in TOS. Do we know how Romulan capships did against the borg?

 

 

 

 

It's very unlikely that every race in the galaxy would be using NDF weaponry. It's not reasonable to think that all civilizations in the galaxy developed the same solutions to problems. For example: Federation and most other races power their ships and warp drives with antimatter. The Romulans don't. They use artificial quantum singularities for their power source.

 

 

 

Yeah, but at the extremes of engineering, similar problems tend to have similar solutions.

 

 

 

This:

 

 

 

 

Looks a whole lot like this:

 

 

 

 

Even though no one has managed to provide even a shred of proof of industrial espionage being used in the construction of either.

 

 

 

Similar examples exist between Buran and the STS, MiG-31 and YF-108 (less so), various advanced missile programs, warships, and even engines.

 

 

 

 

We know for a fact that the Lysians use heavy laser cannons (A DET weapon) on their destroyers.

 

 

 

I'll have to review that episode. Are they lasers or some non-lightspeed weapon called lasers? (Like laser cannon is SW)

 

 

 

EDIT: According to Memory Alpha, their weapons are 2.1 megajoules. That's about the equivalent of three hand grenades. Or a third the power of a KE shell for a 120mm Tank Gun. Or, in even more domestic terms. That's TWO WHOLE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LESS than a gallon of gas.

 

 

 

I drive a Prius, and that wouldn't even get me a mile.

 

 

 

I'm sure the Borg are incredibly interested.

 

 

 

 

It's also a faulty assumption to assume that since a civilization hasn't advanced much in one area, that they wouldn't be of value to the Borg in other areas.

 

 

 

The borg claim to be looking for technology. The inertial compensator (and the warp drive) are pretty fundamental parts of Trek technology. To the point that the Federation (ultra-liberal space hippies) doesn't think that pre-warp cultures have any technology to contribute.

 

 

 

 

Different cultures focus their advancement in different areas. We see that now, on Earth.

 

 

 

They do, but they generally press to the limits of the knowledge of physics/chemistry/biology. I doubt you're going to find an example of a culture on earth with say - cars - but not refrigeration. They are all related to a degree.

 

 

 

 

Not to mention, that the Federation and other races were at war with the Borg for a good long time. It would mean that NOBODY of ANY race said "Hey! Let's use a direct energy weapon, since they seem to adapt to NDF weapons."

 

 

 

 

No, it might mean that the physics of the Star Trek universe prevent scaling of DET weapons beyond nuclear yields. And they already have nuclear level yields from photons. Perhaps power generation is an issue. We know that planet killers are rare - even though they shouldn't be. Perhaps the Q Continuum or some similar group simply prevent them from working. Hell, that's a common enough concept in sci-fi. Granted, that is raping parsimony in the ass, sideways, with a spoon, but there really needs to be SOME explanation of the fact that planet killers are so rare.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Hey that's good enough reason for me.

 

 

 

Do you have anything worthwhile to add or are you just another asshole troll?.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Do you have anything worthwhile to add or are you just another asshole troll?.

 

 

 

Why not both?

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Why not both?

 

 

 

Actually it seems that it is the prefered attitude of a rather unfortunatly large % of the posters i have seen to combine both attributes.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Actually it seems that it is the prefered attitude of a rather unfortunatly large % of the posters i have seen to combine both attributes.

 

 

 

This is true. The reason is mainly, especially those of us who have been part of this debate for many years, really stopped taking it as 'serious business' a long time ago.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

This is true. The reason is mainly, especially those of us who have been part of this debate for many years, really stopped taking it as 'serious business' a long time ago.

 

 

 

I can certainly understand that considering i have only been involved in it few a months and never took it seriously in the first place. It still suprises me when ppl become emotional on the subject to the point that they start screaming abuse though, i suppose its a consequense of the available anonymity that ppl will behave in ways that are not accepted in public.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I can certainly understand that considering i have only been involved in it few a months and never took it seriously in the first place.

Hilarious coming from the bitch who whined like a raped co-ed after being banned for his own stupidity

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Hilarious coming from the bitch who whined like a raped co-ed after being banned for his own stupidity

 

 

 

I do not consider pointing out biased moderation and getting it sorted to be "whining like a raped co-ed" you asshole.

 

 

 

Nor did i show any stupidity, unless you consider regarding SB as a unbiased debate forum instead of one moderated by a rabid warsie asshole that bans you for kicking his ass in a debate.

 

 

 

 

 

In fact considering the perma-ban was overturned and all the retarded reasons the dickhead mod tried to use to justify it were debunked apart from the fact i had 2 accounts your comment is as retarded as his stupid excuses.

 

 

 

So do you have any FACTS to add to this matter or are you just trying to look like as bigger prick as facehugger and his band of warsie assholes on SB?.

[Jason 27]

BOP can withstand heat levels up to 4500 K because that BOP during TNG enter the a star.

 

My link

 

If wish to see evidnec watch this vidoe from 2 minute and 22 secounds to about 3 minute. List Worf saying we enter the star photonsphere in about 30 secounds.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I do not consider pointing out biased moderation and getting it sorted to be "whining like a raped co-ed" you asshole.

 

 

 

Nor did i show any stupidity, unless you consider regarding SB as a unbiased debate forum instead of one moderated by a rabid warsie asshole that bans you for kicking his ass in a debate.

 

 

 

 

 

In fact considering the perma-ban was overturned and all the retarded reasons the dickhead mod tried to use to justify it were debunked apart from the fact i had 2 accounts your comment is as retarded as his stupid excuses.

 

 

 

So do you have any FACTS to add to this matter or are you just trying to look like as bigger prick as facehugger and his band of warsie assholes on SB?.

Ooooohh Awfully touchy over something you supposedly don't take seriously. Obviously you wouldn't have been banned if you had read the rules, and actually supported your arguments with evidence. It's OK there's no laws against being a delusional jackass anywhere that I'm aware of.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Ooooohh Awfully touchy over something you supposedly don't take seriously. Obviously you wouldn't have been banned if you had read the rules, and actually supported your arguments with evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

Not touchy just replying with a bit i irony (how did you miss that ) and in a way that those of your mental age seems to respect.

 

 

 

1. Anyway there is nothing i could find in the VS rules about having 2 accounts and i never abused the fact by supporting my own stuff anyway, in fact it was a pain in the ass im glad to be rid of because i kept posting on the wrong dude by mistake if i was on another PC.

 

 

 

2. It was supporting my arguments properely and well that was one of the REAL reasons i got banned, that and also making a rabid warsie mod and his argument look utterly retarded at the same time is obviously the "unwritten rule" on SB.

 

 

 

Still it all got overturned apart from the silly dual accounting excuse, and while i am still a bit vague on what you need to do to qualify as a sock puppeteer im willing to accept the token slap on the wrist if it sooths the butt hurt warsie mod a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

It's OK there's no laws against being a delusional jackass anywhere that I'm aware of.

 

 

 

After reading your crap it does not supprise me in the least that you have done a thorough check and were aware of that before posting.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Not touchy just replying with a bit i irony (how did you miss that ) and in a way that those of your mental age seems to respect.

AHH you aint gotta lie to kick it

 

 

 

1. Anyway there is nothing i could find in the VS rules about having 2 accounts and i never abused the fact by supporting my own stuff anyway, in fact it was a pain in the ass im glad to be rid of because i kept posting on the wrong dude by mistake if i was on another PC.

Common sense, the fact your SDN sockpuppets keep getting banned. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Ignorance is bliss

 

 

 

2. It was supporting my arguments properely and well that was one of the REAL reasons i got banned, that and also making a rabid warsie mod and his argument look utterly retarded at the same time is obviously the "unwritten rule" on SB.

Sure you were. The only one who looked retarded was you, well mith too. Then your SDN threads where the most intelligent thing you did was call someone a faggot

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After reading your crap it does not supprise me in the least that you have done a thorough check and were aware of that before posting.

 

See, if you did you wouldn't get banned so often

[Jason 27]

If wish to see some evidence on the stronght BOP shields againist photon toropode watch this video from 6 minute and 7 secounds to about minor 6 minute and 25 secounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8cMVo3Nytk&feature=related

 

As we can see Klingon Forward disruptor cannon Vor'cha' can destory big BOP with out shields with sing shot but deal minor damage shields when hit shields up.

[StarDestroyer Avenger 0]

He has a point crack monkey. Having seen what you posted on SDN,you are fucking retarded. You should see a doctor about getting the dole. I'm amazed someone as fucking stupid as yourself is able to take care of themselves without a nurse nearby to wipe your ass and spoon feed you

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Common sense, the fact your SDN sockpuppets keep getting banned. Oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Ignorance is bliss

 

I have no SDN sock puppets.

 

 

 

Sure you were. The only one who looked retarded was you, well mith too.

 

 

 

Yea right, did you read facehuggers theory?, i have never seen so much unsupported crap in one theory before.

 

 

 

100'S of quintillion tons of matter turned into tachyons and stored in the DS.

 

 

 

100'S of quintillion tons of ANTI- matter turned into tachyons and stored in the DS.

 

 

 

The tachyons then being turned back into M/AM so they annihilate each other to produce 1E32 joules over a 24 hour period.

 

 

 

During that 24 hour period the 1E32 joules (that is more than enough to cause a entire 7000km+ diameter planet to explode) is SOMEHOW stored inside a sphere that is only 160km diameter (making the capacitors storing it a LOT smaller), maybe they use special duracell batteries?......

 

 

 

It is then released and directed into a beam to pop planets.

 

 

 

 

 

And this "theory based in science and real physics" came from somebody who claimed i was using technobabble for my theory...............

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

He has a point crack monkey. Having seen what you posted on SDN,you are fucking retarded. You should see a doctor about getting the dole. I'm amazed someone as fucking stupid as yourself is able to take care of themselves without a nurse nearby to wipe your ass and spoon feed you

 

 

 

 

 

Oh look a SDNTARD.......

 

 

 

 

 

Go away child nobody is interesting in seeing you vent you frustration in a torrent of foul abuse just cos get ass raped all your life.

[Praeothmin 532]

He has a point crack monkey. Having seen what you posted on SDN,you are fucking retarded. You should see a doctor about getting the dole. I'm amazed someone as fucking stupid as yourself is able to take care of themselves without a nurse nearby to wipe your ass and spoon feed you

 

 

 

Are they comparable to your posts here?

 

Does he, like you, only insult others, never back up any claims, and then whine about how he would be king of the hill at SDN because then he'd be backed up by a bunch of Wong brown-nosers?

[Tyralak 12,068]

I apologize for not getting back to you on this one sooner. I got sidetracked.

 

 

 

I was specifically referring to KET. I.E. phaser rifle butts, bullets, fists.

 

 

 

Since turbolasers seem to be some kind of energy released when the containment field is breached (total guess). The closest thing would be the way plasma torpedos were described in TOS. Do we know how Romulan capships did against the borg?

 

 

 

Well, the Essential Guide describes Turbolasers as particle beam weapons. They say nothing about projectiles. In fact, it directly states that Blasters, Laser Cannons and Turbolasers all use the same technology, just in different scales. In fact, one of the few things I actually agree with Mike on is that TLs aren't a "plasma weapon" because the visuals 1. don't fit and 2. It's not possible to get the amount of energy from them. He had an essay on his main site somewhere. The Essential Guide says "The laser actuator combines high-energy blaster gas with a large power charge. (The actuator's prismatic crystal produces a high-energy beam of charged particles coupled with light.)" The pages describing Blasters, Laser Cannons and TurboLasers actually each provide a piece of the overall puzzle.

 

 

 

Oh, and I don't remember how the Romulans did against the Borg. I would suspect not much better than anyone else.

 

 

 

Yeah, but at the extremes of engineering, similar problems tend to have similar solutions.

 

 

 

<snipped pictures for brevity>

 

 

 

No, I completely agree with you. However, this doesn't mean NDF is the ONLY type of weapon used in the Trek universe. It seems to me, that it's a popular weapon because it produces more "bang for the buck". Less energy is required to cause significant damage. I'll give you a real world example. Conventional vs. nuclear weapons. It is certainly possible to create a conventional weapon with the yield of a small nuclear weapon.

 

 

 

The MOAB:

 

 

 

 

 

 

has roughly the same yield as the "Davy Crockett" (M-29):

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, the Davy Crockett is far smaller and can be fired from a tripod instead of being dropped out of a C-130. (And before you ask, you know why it's not used. Political not technological reasons)

 

 

 

 

 

The borg claim to be looking for technology. The inertial compensator (and the warp drive) are pretty fundamental parts of Trek technology. To the point that the Federation (ultra-liberal space hippies) doesn't think that pre-warp cultures have any technology to contribute.

 

 

 

Yes, but the Borg have a different sense of priorities. They also need natural resources, not just technology. Picking off small races for their loot is certainly within their M.O.

 

 

 

They do, but they generally press to the limits of the knowledge of physics/chemistry/biology. I doubt you're going to find an example of a culture on earth with say - cars - but not refrigeration. They are all related to a degree.

 

 

 

That's true, but it's due mostly to the fact that we live on a single planet and more or less share share basic technology. Cultures in separate quadrants of the galaxy wouldn't have quite the same advantage.

 

 

 

No, it might mean that the physics of the Star Trek universe prevent scaling of DET weapons beyond nuclear yields. And they already have nuclear level yields from photons. Perhaps power generation is an issue. We know that planet killers are rare - even though they shouldn't be. Perhaps the Q Continuum or some similar group simply prevent them from working. Hell, that's a common enough concept in sci-fi. Granted, that is raping parsimony in the ass, sideways, with a spoon, but there really needs to be SOME explanation of the fact that planet killers are so rare.

 

 

 

Well, it could be. But the example I gave earlier of the Romulans. They have no power problems due to the fact they use Quantum Singularities as a power source. It's most likely what I brought out earlier: DET weapons are wasteful and inefficient. Even so, if they were shown to work against the Borg, they would have been rolled out en masse. Honestly, many different races and planets had scientists working for years to find weapons that worked against the Borg, and you're suggesting that such a basic idea never occurred to them? Also, there were some calculations posted in another thread showing it highly unlikely that the DS Superlaser is a pure DET weapon. The DS simply isn't large enough to transfer that much energy in a DET format.

[Questor 501]

I apologize for not getting back to you on this one sooner. I got sidetracked.

 

Welcome back, I've missed you.

 

 

 

Well, the Essential Guide describes Turbolasers as particle beam weapons. They say nothing about projectiles. In fact, it directly states that Blasters, Laser Cannons and Turbolasers all use the same technology, just in different scales. In fact, one of the few things I actually agree with Mike on is that TLs aren't a "plasma weapon" because the visuals 1. don't fit and 2. It's not possible to get the amount of energy from them. He had an essay on his main site somewhere. The Essential Guide says "The laser actuator combines high-energy blaster gas with a large power charge. (The actuator's prismatic crystal produces a high-energy beam of charged particles coupled with light.)" The pages describing Blasters, Laser Cannons and TurboLasers actually each provide a piece of the overall puzzle.

 

 

 

 

I was referring more to behavior, rather than mechanism. I.E. They seem to explode when they hit something, rather than transferring their energy in a true DET way. I really can't figure out a way to make the "flack" bursts without some kind of similar behavior.

 

 

 

 

<snipped pictures for brevity>

 

 

 

No, I completely agree with you. However, this doesn't mean NDF is the ONLY type of weapon used in the Trek universe. It seems to me, that it's a popular weapon because it produces more "bang for the buck". Less energy is required to cause significant damage. I'll give you a real world example. Conventional vs. nuclear weapons. It is certainly possible to create a conventional weapon with the yield of a small nuclear weapon.

 

 

 

The MOAB:

 

<SNIP PHOTO>

 

 

 

has roughly the same yield as the "Davy Crockett" (M-29):

 

 

 

<SNIP PHOTO>

 

 

 

However, the Davy Crockett is far smaller and can be fired from a tripod instead of being dropped out of a C-130. (And before you ask, you know why it's not used. Political not technological reasons)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Davy Crockett also has some "danger close" issues.

 

 

 

Even further though, you run into the fact that these weapons solve very different problems in different eras. The MOAB (and Daisy Cutters) was developed primarily a ground clearance weapon, which were then used as either jungle clearance, mine clearance, or psychological weapons. They are inherently offensive weapons. The M-29, on the other hand was a defensive weapon in that it was designed to knock holes in a combined arms attack and act as a temporary area denial weapon.

 

 

 

One role SCREAMS nuclear weapon, the other role prevents the concept from being used.

 

 

 

 

Yes, but the Borg have a different sense of priorities. They also need natural resources, not just technology. Picking off small races for their loot is certainly within their M.O.

 

 

Right, but why would they need to assimilate them, killing them is far more efficient.

 

 

 

 

That's true, but it's due mostly to the fact that we live on a single planet and more or less share share basic technology. Cultures in separate quadrants of the galaxy wouldn't have quite the same advantage.

 

 

 

 

Actually, that example was chosen because the internal combustion engine is a prerequisite for both, I seem to recall spending several minutes choosing the analogy that would do what I wanted. The idea that a society would have hundreds of years of advancement in one area, but none in another is simply nonsensical. The only times I've seen it seriously postulated, the author (and always an author, because TV shows don't bother trying to make sense) has to bend over backwards trying to explain it, usually with a massive, totalitarian theocracy. It just doesn't make sense. Do you really think that our current advances in medicine would be possible without nuclear imaging?

 

 

 

 

Well, it could be. But the example I gave earlier of the Romulans. They have no power problems due to the fact they use Quantum Singularities as a power source. It's most likely what I brought out earlier: DET weapons are wasteful and inefficient. Even so, if they were shown to work against the Borg, they would have been rolled out en masse. Honestly, many different races and planets had scientists working for years to find weapons that worked against the Borg, and you're suggesting that such a basic idea never occurred to them? Also, there were some calculations posted in another thread showing it highly unlikely that the DS Superlaser is a pure DET weapon. The DS simply isn't large enough to transfer that much energy in a DET format.

 

 

 

 

A. No power problems using ST style weaponry, where power requirements are - frankly - wonky. doesn't mean that they have no power issues at all.

 

 

 

B. That would assume that weapons development happens in a rational way in the ST universe. Wanna watch me cite examples where it doesn't?

 

 

 

C. Which thread are you referring to? There are only a few ways to show that something isn't "large enough" to transfer energy, and I can't think of any that apply in a weapon situation. The closest is dissipation of waste heat when not firing, except we have no evidence that whatever power source used in SW ships is not variable output. (Nor do we have any evidence that warp cores are not variable output.)