What be fire power needed to destroy BOP with shield up

[Jason 27]

IF you wish to see evidence watch this vidoe from one 2 minute and 42 secounds to about 2 minute and 48 secounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone here by any chance now the strongth photon toropode have to be able to destory BOP.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Well, it does show what one would expect. Station based weapons are significantly more powerful than ship based. I don't know exactly how you would divine number from that, though.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Well, it does show what one would expect. Station based weapons are significantly more powerful than ship based. I don't know exactly how you would divine number from that, though.

 

 

 

Well, the most logical course of action would be to start with a BoPs shield capacity, and work our way from there....However, we do not have those numbers, do we? This means, unsurprisingly, that Jason has asked us to solve an unanswerable problem, and provided us with nothing useful to go off of. AGAIN. Well, business as usual, I guess.

[Khas 12,158]

Hey, when you read the title of the thread out loud, try saying it like a pirate.

 

 

 

I know that that comment wasn't very constructive, but aside from flaming Jason, what constructive thing can come from this thread?

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Hey, when you read the title of the thread out loud, try saying it like a pirate.

 

 

 

I know that that comment wasn't very constructive, but aside from flaming Jason, what productivity can come from this thread?

 

Sending a Killer Super (THAT WAS NO HUMAN BEE) Bee from Invader Zim that can deal dozens of Teratons worth of KE after him?

[Jason 27]

Will if it helps we seen Defaint class starship destory if wish to see evidence watch this vidoe BOP in few secounds watch this video from 53 secounds to about 58 secounds.

[Khas 12,158]

Sending a Killer Super (THAT WAS NO HUMAN BEE) Bee from Invader Zim that can deal dozens of Teratons worth of KE after him?

 

 

 

No, too much collateral damage...

 

 

 

Something stealthier would be required...

[Jason 27]

Ok if wish see evidence watch this vidoe. From 2 minute and 48 secounds to about two photon toropodes per a Jem Harder attact bug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdLYhoLtzH8&feature=related

[Tyralak 12,068]

I've replayed that last one a few times, it appears that one of them took 3 and the others took 2.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

I enjoyed those scenes, we see a lot of the firepower from the feds held back in most episodes as they target engines ect, it was only in "Q Who" where they put craters that are several KM wide and god knows how deep into a borg cube that we see the gloves come off a bit.

[Questor 501]

I enjoyed those scenes, we see a lot of the firepower from the feds held back in most episodes as they target engines ect, it was only in "Q Who" where they put craters that are several KM wide and god knows how deep into a borg cube that we see the gloves come off a bit.

 

 

 

WHAAAAAAAAAT?

 

 

 

I assume you are not talking about the scene where when told to attack the source of the beam, Worf managed to hit... something halfway down the cube from the source with a phaser, and it did no visible damage?

 

 

 

Maybe you meant the scene where the laser cuts straight into the hull? Hehehehehe

 

 

 

I know! you mean the second time they try to hit the beam and miss. The one where they blow a hole about as wide as the saucer section in the cube (the part that is destroyed seems suspiciously non solid to me as well)? Or maybe you mean the third shot - which misses again - that just leaves a scorch mark? Or the shot that finally hits - which doesn't seem to leave much of a scorch mark, but does turn off the beam?

 

 

 

Of course, after that, dumbasses just hang around in weapons range. Then there is the part where Can't-Shoot-For-Shit claims that the previous damage destroyed 20% of the ship - showing that in addition to being useless as a gunnery officer, he can't add either. Or what about the part where he brags about almost knocking out the life support of a ship that Data said didn't have any life support?

 

 

 

Or maybe the part where Geordi is telling whatsername to "reprogram" fused circuits?

 

 

 

Or when they beam over to a ship with "damaged" or non-existant life support in their pajama-unis?

 

 

 

Or the part where the Borg have a nursery - complete with cyborg babies?

 

 

 

Or what about the one where we discover that the borg ship has the cartoon transformer technology, and suddenly grows?

 

 

 

Or the part when Riker says "Increase 10 to the third power?"

 

 

 

Or the part where Geordi controls the Warp Speed from the engine room for no discernible reason?

 

 

 

Or maybe the part where two photon torpedos do absolutely nothing to the cube? Lots of power there...

 

 

 

Or maybe the second time the torpedos do absolutely nothing?

 

 

 

Do I have the right episode? Which scene did the Enterprise blow multi-kilometer craters in the cube?

 

 

 

EDIT: I should add that 1000x magnification isn't actually that great. You'd get an image rougly 1/30th on a side of the original. I suspect they actually magnified at least 10000x, and more likely 100000x. Which is a darn good job for a camera small enough that we can't see it.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

WHAAAAAAAAAT?

 

 

 

I assume you are not talking about the scene where when told to attack the source of the beam, Worf managed to hit... something halfway down the cube from the source with a phaser, and it did no visible damage?

 

 

 

Then the rather obvious answer is that the source of the beam would not be the emitter and that makes sense in a decentralised design as the power for the beam would come from all over the ship not one point.

 

 

 

 

 

I know! you mean the second time they try to hit the beam and miss. The one where they blow a hole about as wide as the saucer section in the cube (the part that is destroyed seems suspiciously non solid to me as well)? Or maybe you mean the third shot - which misses again - that just leaves a scorch mark? Or the shot that finally hits - which doesn't seem to leave much of a scorch mark, but does turn off the beam?

 

 

 

Then there is the part where Can't-Shoot-For-Shit claims that the previous damage destroyed 20% of the ship - showing that in addition to being useless as a gunnery officer, he can't add either.

 

 

 

A lot of the energy from the shot that hit the edge went through the hole and was lost but still dug a chunk roughly 700m in diameter out of the cube.

 

 

 

The next 2 shots hit the cube more centrally so none of the phaser effect is wasted and must do considerable internal damage as the 20% statement shows.

 

 

 

 

 

Im not sure WTF you are talking about in regards to scorch marks cos i see the 1 hole on the edge of the cube (that only took part of the phaser hit) and we can see the depth of. Also 2 other holes that took the all of the phaser blast and are so deep we cannot see the bottom or the internal damage. The cube face being 3km x 3km shows the craters roughly 700m, 600m and 350m in diameter

 

 

 

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5621/qwhocube.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Questor 501]

Then the rather obvious answer is that the source of the beam would not be the emitter and that makes sense in a decentralised design as the power for the beam would come from all over the ship not one point.

 

 

 

Or its possible Microbrain can't hit the broad side of a barn. Not exactly inconsistent with the rest of TNG, either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not sure WTF you are talking about in regards to scorch marks cos i see the 1 hole on the edge of the cube (that only took part of the phaser hit) and we can see the depth of. Also 2 other holes that took the all of the phaser blast and are so deep we cannot see the bottom or the internal damage. The cube face being 3km x 3km shows the craters roughly 700m, 600m and 350m in diameter

 

 

 

http://img299.images...21/qwhocube.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for proving my point. There is one divot and two scorch marks. They are not deep at all.

 

 

 

Also, nice dodging on the fact that photons did nothing, and the fact that the portion of the cube that was knocked off was significantly less than solid.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I believe that is a concession on "several KM wide" holes? Because neither are they several KM wide, nor are there several individual kilometer wide holes.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Or its possible Microbrain can't hit the broad side of a barn. Not exactly inconsistent with the rest of TNG, either.

 

 

 

Really?, they regularly target subsystems very effectively so i would say your comment is inconsistent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for proving my point. There is one divot and two scorch marks. They are not deep at all.

 

 

 

 

 

Also, nice dodging on the fact that photons did nothing, and the fact that the portion of the cube that was knocked off was significantly less than solid.

 

 

 

1. They are two very deep holes, scorch marks do not leave partly disintigrated material of the hull sticking out at odd angles.

 

 

 

2. Who claimed that the cube was solid, and why would they make such a stupid claim about a ship that kinda needs to be hollow for a crew to be inside it?.

 

 

 

3. As it was not solid even on the outside (a silly thing to say anybody has claimed due to it being a SHIP not a block of summat) your claim that you see scorch marks is proven wrong because even though phasers are odd they are unlikely to be able to scorch the non solid (empty space parts) of the cubes hull.

 

 

 

4. Do we see scorch marks on the part of the hull it disintigrated on the right edge?, nope then i guess the phasers do not leave any.

 

 

 

I did not dodge the photon torpedo issue i just ignored it as its irrelavant due to the fact that while phasers would need adapting too due to there odd design/effects a simple explosive like a photon torpedo would have been encountered by the borg on may occasions.

[Questor 501]

Really?, they regularly target subsystems very effectively so i would say your comment is inconsistent.

 

 

 

And exactly how does that change the fact that the hit that disabled it was to the emitter, and that as many times as they target subsystems, they miss the target. In this case. 76% of the time.

 

 

 

 

1. They are two very deep holes, scorch marks do not leave partly disintigrated material of the hull sticking out at odd angles.

 

 

 

 

Nope, look at the lighting, there is a secondary source coming from the front (facing the Enterprise) and below. Given the angle to the camera, if there were a hole, we'd see something along the lines of the divot, rather than a black mark airbrushed on the model.

 

 

 

 

2. Who claimed that the cube was solid, and why would they make such a stupid claim about a ship that kinda needs to be hollow for a crew to be inside it?.

 

 

 

3. As it was not solid even on the outside (a silly thing to say anybody has claimed due to it being a SHIP not a block of summat) your claim that you see scorch marks is proven wrong because even though phasers are odd they are unlikely to be able to scorch the non solid (empty space parts) of the cubes hull.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The density was low. Far less energy is required to create the divot.

 

 

 

4. Do we see scorch marks on the part of the hull it disintigrated on the right edge?, nope then i guess the phasers do not leave any.

 

 

 

 

Too bad the special effects artists couldn't be consistent in even a single episode. Hurts, doesn't it?

 

 

 

 

I did not dodge the photon torpedo issue i just ignored it as its irrelavant due to the fact that while phasers would need adapting too due to there odd design/effects a simple explosive like a photon torpedo would have been encountered by the borg on may occasions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Take a physics class. How the fuck do you adapt to having energy dumped into a system? Are you just completely ignorant of thermodynamics?

 

 

 

Oh, wait, a borg wanker.

 

 

 

Fuck, you're gonna be dumber than Jason, aren't you?

 

 

 

 

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

And exactly how does that change the fact that the hit that disabled it was to the emitter, and that as many times as they target subsystems, they miss the target. In this case. 76% of the time.

 

 

 

We have no conclusive proof he was targetting the emitter for the first shots, and yea sometimes they miss or are unable to destroy subsystems il let you watch every episode of trek and count how many times they miss or hit when they try so we can work out what is the %....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, look at the lighting, there is a secondary source coming from the front (facing the Enterprise) and below. Given the angle to the camera, if there were a hole, we'd see something along the lines of the divot, rather than a black mark airbrushed on the model.

 

 

 

Lighting?, camera?, airbrushed?, model?.

 

 

 

Il not comment on your abandonment of "suspension of disbelief" other than to say....CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The density was low. Far less energy is required to create the divot.

 

 

 

Far less energy than what, i made no post about the energy required?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too bad the special effects artists couldn't be consistent in even a single episode. Hurts, doesn't it?

 

 

 

Oh dear oh dear not again.....CONCESSION ACCEPTED .

 

 

 

 

 

Take a physics class. How the fuck do you adapt to having energy dumped into a system? Are you just completely ignorant of thermodynamics?

 

 

 

Their shields blocked the energy of the torps but did not block the phasers (at least initially) meaning that the phasers could penetrate the shields but the photons could not due to how each of them operated.

 

 

 

Id say its you who are dumb, blind or both as we see exactly that on the screen.

 

 

 

PS: How do i delete the second post as it was unintended?.

[Tyralak 12,068]

[Questor 501]

We have no conclusive proof he was targetting the emitter for the first shots, and yea sometimes they miss or are unable to destroy subsystems il let you watch every episode of trek and count how many times they miss or hit....

 

 

 

Concession accepted.

 

 

 

 

Lighting?, camera?, airbrushed?, model?.

 

 

 

Il not comment on your abandonment of "suspension of disbelief" other than to say....CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

 

 

 

 

OK, how about this?

 

 

 

Given the obvious reflected lighting from the star onto a planet, we should be able to see the interior of the "crater" assuming that the interior of the ship is not hollow. The fact that both the Enterprise and the borg cube seem to be carrying around massive external beauty shot light sources means that I can use the calculable angles of shadow and light (along with the differences in type) to make judgements about the "craters."

 

 

 

Of course, since they were carrying massive light sources, the question becomes why the piddling energy involved in phasers and photon torpedos even gets used when they could just swing the light source around to destroy their enemies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Far less energy than what, i made no post about the energy required?.

 

 

 

 

Than it would take to create that large a divot in a ship with armor.

 

 

 

 

Oh dear oh dear not again.....CONCESSION ACCEPTED .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, you don't get to infer that just because one shot created a divot they all do when they patently do not.

 

 

 

 

Their shields blocked the energy of the torps but did not block the phasers (at least initially) meaning that the phasers could penitrate the shields due to how they operated.

 

 

 

 

What shields? Also phasers are almost as universal as warp drives.

 

 

 

The alternative explanation is that my calcs showing low end values for torpedos are correct, and that the torpedos do not have the yields much in excess of low-kiloton ranges.

 

 

 

The problem with borg wankers is that they don't seem to understand that adapting to NDF type weapons like phasers is possible, but as we see consistently thought the show, direct energy transfer is something that they can't handle. An elementary understanding of thermodynamics would indicate that any absorbed energy must be dealt with somehow.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Id say its you who are dumb, blind or both as we see exactly that on the screen.

 

 

 

 

OK, but since I've actually got a scientific basis for my assumptions, and you've pulled yours out of your ass, then we'll be assuming that you're the idiot.

 

 

 

 

PS: How do i delete the second post as it was unintended?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You contact your friendly moderation team!

[Ado Mortumee 500]

 

*Floats in with Irken soda, donuts, and what the humans of IZ Earth call ‘Poopcorn’.* “Will this should be interesting.†*Pats jar that holds two Invader Zim-verse Killer Super Bees*

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Concession accepted.

 

 

 

You finished watching all those episodes already?, what were the results pls and what % did they miss/hit for the consession to be valid?.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, how about this?

 

 

 

Given the obvious reflected lighting from the star onto a planet, we should be able to see the interior of the "crater" assuming that the interior of the ship is not hollow. The fact that both the Enterprise and the borg cube seem to be carrying around massive external beauty shot light sources means that I can use the calculable angles of shadow and light (along with the differences in type) to make judgements about the "craters."

 

 

 

Fail im afraid as we can see many areas of black on the cube where no material is present and they are in areas that the E-D did not fire at and are also follow the shape of the surrounding visable material. As such it is obvious that at a certain depth we are unable to see inside proving the crater and disproving the scorch mark idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Than it would take to create that large a divot in a ship with armor.

 

 

 

Well duh of course summat like a tactical cube would take less damage. A normal cube is gonna have some armour as its designed to assimilate entire cultures (the more advanced the better) and it would be stupid to think these cultures had no fleets. The cube would need to survive long enough to adapt to their weapons so some armour is likely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, you don't get to infer that just because one shot created a divot they all do when they patently

 

 

 

I am not infering anything im looking at the image and seeing 1 divot and 2 holes, not scorch marks HOLES with twisted and melted material surrounding them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What shields?.

 

 

 

Also phasers are almost as universal as warp drives.

 

 

 

The shields that stop the torps from damaging the ship obviously.

 

 

 

Actually we see a lot of disruptors more than phasers and in voyager we saw examples of loads of differing energy weapons rather than just phasers.

 

 

 

The alternative explanation is that my calcs showing low end values for torpedos are correct, and that the torpedos do not have the yields much in excess of low-kiloton ranges.

 

 

 

I have not seen your calcs but while im sure the math is fine i doubt il agree with the perspective or starting point you base it off.

 

 

 

The problem with borg wankers is that they don't seem to understand that adapting to NDF type weapons like phasers is possible.

 

 

 

Well that is stupid cos we see the borg adapt to phasers loads of times over the series.

 

 

 

But as we see consistently thought the show, direct energy transfer is something that they can't handle.

 

 

 

Do we?.

 

 

An elementary understanding of thermodynamics would indicate that any absorbed energy must be dealt with somehow.

 

 

 

You know that, i know that, but that does not mean that what we see is going to be consistant with that.

 

 

 

 

OK, but since I've actually got a scientific basis for my assumptions, and you've pulled yours out of your ass, then we'll be assuming that you're the idiot.

 

 

 

I find your scientific basis contradictory, first you say the borg have no shields, then you say "an elementary understanding of thermodynamics would indicate that any absorbed energy must be dealt with somehow".

 

 

 

Now if both those are true then if the photons are exaton, petaton, teraton, gigaton, megaton or low friging kiloton does not matter because at any of those levels the explosions would have caused damage to the cube instead of doing jack.

[Questor 501]

You finished watching all those episodes already?, what were the results pls and what % did they miss/hit for the consession to be valid?.

 

 

 

Fuck you. How about you back up a single one of your assertions?

 

 

 

 

Fail im afraid as we can see many areas of black on the cube where no material is present and they are in areas that the E-D did not fire at and are also follow the shape of the surrounding visable material. As such it is obvious that at a certain depth we are unable to see inside proving the crater and disproving the scorch mark idea.

 

 

 

 

Having put in the DVD to get slightly better contrast than you picture, I've discovered that the light does support the "bowed out" statement. Amazingly I have discovered something else!

 

 

 

The area was phasorized! Rendering any calculation of yield meaningless, and conveniently providing evidence that shipboard phasers DO operate based on NDF.

 

 

 

 

Well duh of course summat like a tactical cube would take less damage. A normal cube is gonna have some armour as its designed to assimilate entire cultures (the more advanced the better) and it would be stupid to think these cultures had no fleets. The cube would need to survive long enough to adapt to their weapons so some armour is likely.

 

 

 

 

Borg wankery ignored/

 

 

 

 

I am not infering anything im looking at the image and seeing 1 divot and 2 holes, not scorch marks HOLES with twisted and melted material surrounding them.

 

 

See above.

 

 

 

 

The shields that stop the torps from damaging the ship obviously.

 

 

 

 

The shields that there is no evidence for? The shields that they earlier beamed through?

 

 

 

 

Actually we see a lot of disruptors more than phasers and in voyager we saw examples of loads of differing energy weapons rather than just phasers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you claiming that there wasn't a single example of NDF in the delta quadrant? Disrupters cause NDF as well.

 

 

 

 

I have not seen your calcs but while im sure the math is fine i doubt il agree with the perspective or starting point you base it off.

 

 

 

 

being a dumbass, I'm sure you don't. The calcs are based off of the torpedo penetration in STVI, and use the fireball radius of a nuclear explosion as a starting point. I get 10 tons straight, so I threw in a radiation shielding/armor factor of 1000 and got 10KT (Which is generous)

 

 

 

 

Well that is stupid cos we see the borg adapt to phasers loads of times over the series.

 

 

 

 

Where did I say they couldn't adapt to phasers, dumbass?

 

 

 

 

Do we?.

 

 

 

 

Are you telling me that you think First Contact was the first time somebody shot a bullet at them? And a .45 isn't a particularly energetic form of bullet either.

 

 

 

 

You know that, i know that, but that does not mean that what we see is going to be consistant with that.

 

 

 

 

Its the job of the assertor (you) to make it consistent with that. Unless you are going to try and throw out science wholesale. (A common tactic for less experienced debaters)

 

 

 

 

I find your scientific basis contradictory, first you say the borg have no shields, then you say "an elementary understanding of thermodynamics would indicate that any absorbed energy must be dealt with somehow".

 

 

 

 

And I find your lack of understanding disturbing. I claimed that we saw no evidence of shields, which means that the laws of thermodynamics will be acting on the original body, not the absorption effect of the shields. ST shields can be thought of - from a thermodynamic viewpoint - as a device that stores energy and reemits it slowly (hence the shields down to 30% type comments).

 

 

 

 

Now if both those are true then if the photons are exaton, petaton, teraton, gigaton, megaton or low friging kiloton does not matter because at any of those levels the explosions would have caused damage to the cube instead of doing jack.

 

 

 

 

Assuming you are in an atmosphere, you are correct. Nukes/antimatter are very different in space, I'd acquaint yourself with the differences before continuing this argument..

 

 

 

Assuming a 10 meter detonation distance (likely to be rather conservative) a 10KT explosion will vaporize a crater that is neither wide, nor deep - less than 2 meters directly under the detonation point, dropping to about 70mm at 49 meters from the detonation point. A 50 meter distance reduces that even farther.

[Tyralak 12,068]

The area was phasorized! Rendering any calculation of yield meaningless, and conveniently providing evidence that shipboard phasers DO operate based on NDF.

 

 

 

When has it ever been a matter of question that Phasers and Disruptors operate on NDF? Phasers operate on the "Rapid Nadion Effect"; a form of molecular disruption. Unless, you're trying to make another point I'm not catching. Memory Alpha article on Phasers.

[Questor 501]

When has it ever been a matter of question that Phasers and Disruptors operate on NDF? Phasers operate on the "Rapid Nadion Effect"; a form of molecular disruption. Unless, you're trying to make another point I'm not catching. Memory Alpha article on Phasers.

 

 

 

Kor questioned it in an earlier thread.

 

 

 

I had actually not seen the effect in ship-to-ship that blatantly. Normally it was TWoK style scorching damage. Or just *Kaboom*

[Jason 27]

In pratice each photon toropode being fire UFP Space Station is equel to 3 Quantum torpedos.

[Questor 501]

In pratice each photon toropode being fire UFP Space Station is equel to 3 Quantum torpedos.

 

 

 

You aren't even trying anymore, are you?