Why does the Star Wars Empire design major warship weak againist one or two man fighters

[Jason 27]

We see many times over the Empire Warships being weak againist one or two man fighters. Empire seem to depend on Tie fighters to protect starship from attact.

[Praeothmin 532]

What?

 

 

 

Let's see... WRONG!!!!!

 

 

 

If the Imperial ships were really that weak, then the Millenium Falcon, being easily more powerful then 2 or 3 X-Wings, could have taken one down instead of running away like a pussy...

 

 

 

Yes, they can be dangerous to a Capital ship, but only after a lot of damage has been dealt, or if many, many such fighters armed with anti-capship torpedoes attack it...

 

 

 

Never 1 or 2, unless you mean 1 or 2 Suncrushers...

[Jason 27]

THe problem is that EMpire star destoyers weapons have availabe to use against one or two man fighters are about effective also defense systoms that USA had around to stop one or two man fighters world war 2. Those Star War fighters offer go a lot faster anything we had during World War 2. THe Millenium Falcon fled tie fighters. They did not even try put up a fight.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Umm...The millenium falcon had quite a bit of difficulty evading ties in Empire. Also, there was that one battle in ANH, when the Falcon got into a dog fight wit four ties, and they were literally FLYING CIRCLES around the millenium falcon. I will concede the fact that the falcon wasn't really trying to outrun those ties, because they didn't want to be followed to the base, and because they were perfectly capable of defeating them.

 

 

 

Wait...I think I was confused for a second(not a surprise, given Jason's writing abilities), but are you saying that that the ties are superior to the falcon, or that ties are useless? The falcon decimated those ties in ANH, although ties have been shown as capable starfighters, as seen whenever they took out swarms of X-wings in eps 4 and 6. So, wrong on both counts?

[Praeothmin 532]

The falcon decimated those ties in ANH, although ties have been shown as capable starfighters, as seen whenever they took out swarms of X-wings in eps 4 and 6. So, wrong on both counts?

 

 

 

I think you're confusing Tie fighters with Tie/Interceptors...

 

Tie Fighters were taken out in swarms by X-Wings and A-Wings in ep 6, and the only reason they took out so many X-Wings in ep 4 is because they attacked from behind, and even then they barely made an even 1:1 kill ratio...

 

 

 

But I understand one can get confused when reading Jason's drivel...

 

It would drive any normal man insane, and we all know no normal person hangs around here...

[Airlocke 12,014]

I think you're confusing Tie fighters with Tie/Interceptors...

 

Tie Fighters were taken out in swarms by X-Wings and A-Wings in ep 6, and the only reason they took out so many X-Wings in ep 4 is because they attacked from behind, and even then they barely made an even 1:1 kill ratio...

 

 

 

But I understand one can get confused when reading Jason's drivel...

 

It would drive any normal man insane, and we all know no normal person hangs around here...

 

 

 

Meh, to be honest I don't care too much. I was obsessed with the big SW for about a year, then I just kinda gave up on it. I still read EU every now and then, but that is only for more of my favorite characters.

[MinoanDesire 0]

and the only reason they took out so many X-Wings in ep 4 is because they attacked from behind, and even then they barely made an even 1:1 kill ratio...

 

 

 

On the contrary, there were thirty-two Rebel fighters attacking the Death Star 1 and only nine TIE Fighters defending it -- six regular TIEs launched by Vader's command, then Vader himself with two wingmen. At the end of the movie, only four Rebel ships flew away -- the Millennium Falcon, two X-Wings, and one Y-Wing. Even if we assume that all of the TIEs except Vader were killed offscreen, the fighter kill score comes to 28-8 in the Empire's favour, a very impressive 3.5:1 ratio.

 

 

 

It's also important to note that the reason the X-Wings had to make the second and third attack runs on the trench was that there weren't three more Y-Wings left by the time Vader killed the first three; the "outside" TIEs had massacred them despite being badly outnumbered by X-Wing escorts.

[Praeothmin 532]

On the contrary, there were thirty-two Rebel fighters attacking the Death Star 1 and only nine TIE Fighters defending it -- six regular TIEs launched by Vader's command, then Vader himself with two wingmen. At the end of the movie, only four Rebel ships flew away -- the Millennium Falcon, two X-Wings, and one Y-Wing. Even if we assume that all of the TIEs except Vader were killed offscreen, the fighter kill score comes to 28-8 in the Empire's favour, a very impressive 3.5:1 ratio.

 

 

 

It's also important to note that the reason the X-Wings had to make the second and third attack runs on the trench was that there weren't three more Y-Wings left by the time Vader killed the first three; the "outside" TIEs had massacred them despite being badly outnumbered by X-Wing escorts.

 

 

 

What about those guns firing, and destroying, X-wings?

 

We didn't see those Ties destroying 28 X-Wings/Y-Wings, we saw them destroying a few, about as many as the turrets destroyed.

 

So if we are to assume that Ties killed more ships offscreen, then we also have to assume that those turrets did the same.

 

And don't forget that at least 5 or 6 destroyed ships were shot down by the Ties while doing the trench run, thus flying in straight lines towards the exaust port, thus not being hard targets to hit, thus not being that impressive.

 

By the way, where did you get your 9 Ties number from?

[MinoanDesire 0]

What about those guns firing, and destroying, X-wings?

 

We didn't see those Ties destroying 28 X-Wings/Y-Wings, we saw them destroying a few, about as many as the turrets destroyed.

 

So if we are to assume that Ties killed more ships offscreen, then we also have to assume that those turrets did the same.

 

And don't forget that at least 5 or 6 destroyed ships were shot down by the Ties while doing the trench run, thus flying in straight lines towards the exaust port, thus not being hard targets to hit, thus not being that impressive.

 

 

 

On the contrary, the only Rebel we saw being shot down by the Death Star's surface guns was Jek Porkins, and both the movie and EU sources indicate that the surface batteries were simply too big and slow to effectively target fighters -- those guns were built to hit capital ships, not snubfighters. The reason they were able to hit Porkins was that the flight control systems of his X-Wing had not been correctly calibrated in the Rebels' haste to launch against the Death Star, and even then they were only able to score a glancing hit on him after his alignment problems were exacerbated by collision damage from debris kicked up by a strafing run.

 

 

 

By the way, where did you get your 9 Ties number from?

 

 

 

It's clearly seen in the film itself -- there are exactly 6 TIE fighters attacking the Rebels after Vader orders them launched, then Vader himself takes off with two wingmen. The EU confirms this, stating that Vader's personal "Black Squadron" consisted of his personal TIE Advanced plus eight standard TIE Fighters.

[Praeothmin 532]

On the contrary, the only Rebel we saw being shot down by the Death Star's surface guns was Jek Porkins, and both the movie and EU sources indicate that the surface batteries were simply too big and slow to effectively target fighters -- those guns were built to hit capital ships, not snubfighters. The reason they were able to hit Porkins was that the flight control systems of his X-Wing had not been correctly calibrated in the Rebels' haste to launch against the Death Star, and even then they were only able to score a glancing hit on him after his alignment problems were exacerbated by collision damage from debris kicked up by a strafing run.

 

 

 

I'll watch the movie again, because it seemed to me the Ties weren't doing such a good job against the rebels...

 

 

 

It's clearly seen in the film itself -- there are exactly 6 TIE fighters attacking the Rebels after Vader orders them launched, then Vader himself takes off with two wingmen. The EU confirms this, stating that Vader's personal "Black Squadron" consisted of his personal TIE Advanced plus eight standard TIE Fighters.

 

 

 

But I don't recall "clearly" seeing 28 Rebel ships on the attack run though...

 

Does the ANH novelisation state numbers as well?

[MinoanDesire 0]

But I don't recall "clearly" seeing 28 Rebel ships on the attack run though...

 

Does the ANH novelisation state numbers as well?

 

 

 

The movie itself states "We count thirty Rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they're so small they're evading our turbolasers!" The combined EU refines this to exactly thirty-two fighters -- 22 X-Wings, 8 Y-Wings, and 2 R-22 Spearheads.

[Praeothmin 532]

The movie itself states "We count thirty Rebel ships, Lord Vader, but they're so small they're evading our turbolasers!" The combined EU refines this to exactly thirty-two fighters -- 22 X-Wings, 8 Y-Wings, and 2 R-22 Spearheads.

 

 

 

I will thus re-watch that scene in ANH tonight in order to obtain a new "appreciation" of the prowess of Tie pilots...

[Praeothmin 532]

I rewatched the DS attack last night, and this is what I noticed:

 

 

 

-First, the number of ships: I was able to count 27 ships (and a possible 28th farther back), but I did not see the two "A-wings", but I see no problems with thinking they are there;

 

 

 

And at the end, not counting Wedge who had to retreat earlier due to being hit, there were 3 X-Wings escaping from the DS with the MF.

 

 

 

So out of 30 ships (27 or 28 counted onscreen), there remained 4.

 

 

 

Meaning 26 kills against the Rebels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's my analysis:

 

 

 

-The attack run: When the Rebels start attacking, they do strafing runs all over the DS. Then Porkins gets shot, and at a few times during the attack, we hear calls of warning about "heavy fire" in certain zones. Indeed, while the DS's gunners couldn't track the Rebel ships, they started saturating the area with bolts, and Porkins actually seemed to get caught in the crossfire of those bolts (look at all the bolts flying by when he goes down, before he gets hit and explodes).

 

 

 

Such zones could indeed be hazardous to the fighters, even if the gunners can't actually target them, just by increasing dramatically the chance of a lucky hit, and by restraining the maneuvering room of the fighters.

 

 

 

And by what we saw, one hit almost automatically means 1 kill, since these are anti-Capship weapons and that Tie weapons kill with two hits.

 

 

 

In fact, the Rebels even shot at cannon emplacements many times in their surface runs.

 

 

 

Why do that if these guns can't do anything against you and are not a threat?

 

 

 

And if you're not trying to hit the guns, then why shoot the DS at all?

 

 

 

If these guns were so useless, then why did the rebels in the air not shoot at Vader and co when they appeared?

 

 

 

Strafing runs against the surface continued even after the Ties appeared.

 

 

 

If Ties can hit you and not the surface guns, then wouldn't it be more intelligent to shoot at the Ties first?

 

 

 

In fact, while we continue to hear about "heavy fire" many times during the trench runs, we do not hear about the Ties anymore.

 

 

 

Why?

 

 

 

Would they not also deserve notice if they were indeed posing such a threat?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-The Tie fighters involvement: When the Ties first arrive, we see again how crappy the SW sensors are because those Ties are already on the Rebels' tails when they notice them.

 

 

 

The first Tie kills a Rebel, but is immediately shot down by another Rebel ship, showing that they will take care of their own, and aside from the trench run, will stop their strafing attacks to defend themselves.

 

 

 

The fact that the Ties had surprise on their side but only managed to kill 1 Rebel ship pretty much shows us they were not that good.

 

 

 

You want us to believe, Desiree, that while the three Y-Wings started their attack run in the trench that the remaining Rebel ships were having trouble taking out the remaining 5 Ties in a dogfight?

 

 

 

I find that hard to believe.

 

 

 

Also, as soon as one group gets destroyed in the trench attack, the Rebels have no problems finding another group of Rebel fighters to take up the run.

 

 

 

In fact, while Red Leader was doing his trench run, Luke wasn't attacking the remaining Ties, but he was just looking at Red leader while looking for Vader's group, and firing a few shots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vader's involvement: Vader was the one who did the most damage to the Rebel fleet, because he killed 7 ships and damaged Wedge.

 

 

 

And he did all that without being worried at all by the other fighters, who for some reason couldn't get there to help, while evading heavy fire.

 

 

 

Perhaps the guns that went silent in the trench were replaced on the surface by other guns, making an attempt to get in the trench very hazardous…

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, after the guns take out Porkins, a Tie takes out an X-Wing, and Vader taking out 7 ships, we have 21 remaining ships.

 

 

 

Since 4 made it out, that means that we're to believe the 5 remaining Ties, while never again being mentioned while heavy fire zones were, took out the remaining 17 ships before getting killed?

 

 

 

Sorry, I don't buy that.

 

 

 

The scenes lead me to believe that the Ties were quickly taken care of, even moreso after viewing their appalling display in TESB and RotJ, but I would have no problem accepting that, while they were taken out in very quickly, they took out half of the remaining Rebels, or 8 ships, making their kill ratio higher then 1:1, but in no way can I accept that they killed all 17 remaining dead Rebels themselves.

[MinoanDesire 0]

-The attack run: When the Rebels start attacking, they do strafing runs all over the DS. Then Porkins gets shot, and at a few times during the attack, we hear calls of warning about "heavy fire" in certain zones. Indeed, while the DS's gunners couldn't track the Rebel ships, they started saturating the area with bolts, and Porkins actually seemed to get caught in the crossfire of those bolts (look at all the bolts flying by when he goes down, before he gets hit and explodes).

 

 

 

Such zones could indeed be hazardous to the fighters, even if the gunners can't actually target them, just by increasing dramatically the chance of a lucky hit, and by restraining the maneuvering room of the fighters.

 

 

 

The Death Star's guns are functionally equivalent to the 5"/38 dual-purpose guns on a WWII-era battleship, which scored few actual kills in the anti-aircraft role but were still considered effective AA weapons because their ability to lay down heavy, accurate flak forced aircraft to maneuver evasively instead of making direct bomb and torpedo runs. The same principle applies here; "merely" giving the Rebel pilots a hard time is more than enough reason for the Death Star's surface batteries to engage despite being poorly optimised for the anti-fighter role, and it conversely is more than enough justification for the Rebels to target them back.

 

 

 

And if you're not trying to hit the guns, then why shoot the DS at all?

 

 

 

The primary purpose of the strafing attacks against the Death Star's surface, according to the ANH novelization, was to attempt to mask the trench attack runs. This was a complete failure, as the Death Star's crew easily analyzed the Rebel attack and discovered the threat; only Tarkin's arrogance in refusing to launch the battle station's fighters allowed the Rebels to win.

 

 

 

If these guns were so useless, then why did the rebels in the air not shoot at Vader and co when they appeared?

 

 

 

Because they had already committed to a low-profile approach on the trench run. Luke was the only pilot to even suggest providing top cover for the trench run, and Red Leader vetoed that suggestion because it was too late -- he'd already used up his torpedoes and his fighter was fatally damaged.

 

 

 

You want us to believe, Desiree, that while the three Y-Wings started their attack run in the trench that the remaining Rebel ships were having trouble taking out the remaining 5 Ties in a dogfight?

 

 

 

Also, as soon as one group gets destroyed in the trench attack, the Rebels have no problems finding another group of Rebel fighters to take up the run.

 

 

 

It's canon that there were eight Y-Wings in Gold Squadron, yet Red Squadron had to take over for the second and third bombing runs because Gold had been decimated by that time; only one Gold Squadron pilot survived the battle.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

-The Tie fighters involvement: When the Ties first arrive, we see again how crappy the SW sensors are because those Ties are already on the Rebels' tails when they notice them.

 

I recall the ANH novel mentioning the Death Star as giving off a fuck-ton of ECM and ECCM and such.

[Praeothmin 532]

The Death Star's guns are functionally equivalent to the 5"/38 dual-purpose guns on a WWII-era battleship, which scored few actual kills in the anti-aircraft role but were still considered effective AA weapons because their ability to lay down heavy, accurate flak forced aircraft to maneuver evasively instead of making direct bomb and torpedo runs. The same principle applies here; "merely" giving the Rebel pilots a hard time is more than enough reason for the Death Star's surface batteries to engage despite being poorly optimised for the anti-fighter role, and it conversely is more than enough justification for the Rebels to target them back.

 

 

 

Except that unlike the Japanese bombers in WWII who were an actual threat to the ships, thus any hindrance will add to the chances of survival for that ship, the X-Wings have no hope to seriously damage the DS.

 

 

 

Even if they bombarded it for a full day, the damage to the outer structure would be minimal and would basically have no actual impact on its battle capacity…

 

 

 

So if the guns couldn't hit them, then there was no logical reason for the Rebel fighters to attack these emplacements, and all the reasons in the world to simply keep cover of the squads doing the trench runs.

 

 

 

 

 

The primary purpose of the strafing attacks against the Death Star's surface, according to the ANH novelization, was to attempt to mask the trench attack runs. This was a complete failure, as the Death Star's crew easily analyzed the Rebel attack and discovered the threat; only Tarkin's arrogance in refusing to launch the battle station's fighters allowed the Rebels to win.

 

 

 

Actually, Vader had the fighters launched.

 

 

 

Tarkin merely refused to have his own ship ready for evacuation.

 

 

 

When Vader ordered the fighters launched, no one argued saying Tarkin didn't authorize it, the officer in charge simply acknowledged Vader's order, and some fighters did launch.

 

 

 

And when the Rebels, always being in communication with each other, realized that their plan was discovered, why then did they not leave the worthless targets they had and go to assist the fighters in the trench run?

 

 

 

That would have increased the chances of success immensely.

 

Instead, they let Vader kill off 7 of their comrades while 1 single ship providing cover could have helped immensely, as Han's intervention has shown...

 

 

 

 

 

Because they had already committed to a low-profile approach on the trench run. Luke was the only pilot to even suggest providing top cover for the trench run, and Red Leader vetoed that suggestion because it was too late -- he'd already used up his torpedoes and his fighter was fatally damaged.

 

 

 

They stayed committed to a plan the obviously didn't work, and let their comrades get shot to hell because they were too occupied shooting at guns that weren't even a threat to cover an attack plan that was discovered as soon as it was set into motion…

 

 

 

So in other words, the Rebels were idiots…<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">

 

 

 

It's canon that there were eight Y-Wings in Gold Squadron, yet Red Squadron had to take over for the second and third bombing runs because Gold had been decimated by that time; only one Gold Squadron pilot survived the battle.

 

 

 

Yup, relooking at the images, I count at least 8 Y-Wings, but seeing as how these ships have the maneuverability of flying bricks, they could easily have been shot down by the "ineffective" surface guns…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look, unless you provide me with a quote directly from the book (and what page it's found at) saying the 5 remaining Ties mopped up the floor with the Rebel ships while the guns remained inefficient, I'll continue to remain unconvinced (I don't have the book, so I can't get read the DS attack passages).

 

 

 

The Ties didn't appear superior to the Rebels, and these surface guns kept being mentioned all throughout the attack as a warning to the pilots while there is no mention at all about the Ties once the trench run has begun.

 

 

 

 

[Praeothmin 532]

I recall the ANH novel mentioning the Death Star as giving off a fuck-ton of ECM and ECCM and such.

 

 

 

You're right, I had read something to that effect a while back.

 

SW sensors are still crappy though...

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

We see many times over the Empire Warships being weak againist one or two man fighters. Empire seem to depend on Tie fighters to protect starship from attact.

 

 

 

Easy. Only main characters decide to attack capital ships on their own, or eventually lead a small squadron to do so.

 

Therefore, it's the best way to bring main characters towards your batteries.

 

In other words...

 

 

 

It's a trap!

[Questor 501]

HOLY NECROMANCY BATMAN!

 

 

 

Can you please add some real content if you do an 8 month necro?

[Tyralak 12,068]

I remember this thread. Nothing like a good bump.

[Jason 27]

In star war clone wars episode Night sister 11 star-fighter able destroy single star destroyer. Wish this happen go to [WHY IS IT SO HARD FOR YOU TO EDIT YOUR VIDEOS AND POST THE SHORT CLIPS ON YOUTUBE? YOU CAN EVEN DO THAT ON A PHONE NOW.="http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/tv_shows/starwars/"]My link[/url] go to videos and then find Night sister episode form begging to 5 minute 59 seconds.'

 

 

 

 

 

HORIZONTAL LEARNING CURVE MOMENT EDITED - AGAIN.

 

[Jason 27]

I do not know did everything computer do have limits I am more limited you that places.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Look Jason, I know about your limitations. If you're unable to edit, I understand.

[Jason 27]

Look Jason, I know about your limitations. If you're unable to edit, I understand.

 

Videos not on Youtube i am unable page I did know how to make my own put on.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Videos not on Youtube i am unable page I did know how to make my own put on.

 

 

 

Well, what i do is get a program to download the specific video from Youtube, then I put it in some video editing software like Windows Movie Maker, and cut the parts I want to use. Then I re-upload it to Youtube. You know, it might actually be a good idea to make a tutorial thread on how to edit videos.