The latest in debauchery

[enigma 521]

Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Nobody claimed Trek books are canon. I'm not sure what exactly you think you're arguing. As for the Wars EU, you do realize how this stuff works don't you? The writer is given a contract to do X number of books. The approval is given before the book is completed. Barring some extreme insanity (Like a backstory showing Palpatine as a flaming gay biker who likes to fuck Wampas.) they're usually rubber-stamped through. There really isn't a lot of quality control after the fact.

 

 

 

There is control. You think that they didn't know Chewbacca was killed off after they rubber stamped it and read the book once it was finished? You don't think that if they didn't like Saxton's finished work that they wouldn't publish an errata in Saxton's next printing editions (assuming there were it went to print more than once.) fixing anything that was wrong? What is to stop them from publishing a new ICS, CCS, etc.. revamping the figures? They do have quality control. Paramount has none.

[Tyralak 12,068]

There is control. You think that they didn't know Chewbacca was killed off after they rubber stamped it and read the book once it was finished? You don't think that if they didn't like Saxton's finished work that they wouldn't publish an errata in Saxton's next printing editions (assuming there were it went to print more than once.) fixing anything that was wrong? What is to stop them from publishing a new ICS, CCS, etc.. revamping the figures? They do have quality control. Paramount has none.

 

 

 

Again, you're arguing something that nobody else is. It's almost like you have talking points prepared for a debate nobody is having, and you're trying to get people to take the opposite side so you can use them. If I didn't know better, I'd think you've been hanging out with Graeme Dice a bit too much. As far as canon goes, (with only a couple of exceptions) the books don't exist. Period. Paramount's canon policy is very clear cut and easy to understand. The books are little more than officially sanctioned fan fiction, so there isn't any need for rigorous quality control to keep canon straight. Canon is movies/TV shows (Including one episode of TAS) Nothing else. OTOH, Wars books are supposed to hold more weight. They're part of the many complicated and conflicting levels of canon Lucasfilm has. So, they should be a bit more careful, yet they let a lot of utter horseshit though. (Traviss, Saxton, Anderson, etc) I honestly don't know why you keep bringing this up. The two things really aren't the same.

[enigma 521]

Again, you're arguing something that nobody else is. It's almost like you have talking points prepared for a debate nobody is having, and you're trying to get people to take the opposite side so you can use them. Sounds like you've been hanging out with Graeme Dice a bit too much. As far as canon goes, (with only a couple of exceptions) the books don't exist. Period. Paramount's canon policy is very clear cut and easy to understand. The books are little more than officially sanctioned fan fiction, so there isn't any need for rigorous quality control to keep canon straight. Canon is movies/TV shows (Including one episode of TAS) Nothing else. I honestly don't know why you keep bringing this up. The two things really aren't the same.

 

 

 

I replied to your bashing of Saxton, complaining about his numbers which are backed by Lucas. Like it or not what he wrote is canon. Making it up or not makes no difference unless Lucasfilm says so.

 

 

 

From Wookieepedia

 

The Star Wars website also details the role of canon, Expanded Universe (or "EU" sources), and how they fit into overall Star Wars continuity. Chris Cerasi stated,

 

 

 

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.

 

 

 

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.

 

 

 

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

 

 

 

Lucas Licensing editor Sue Rostoni elaborated further on the place of printed Expanded Universe sources in Star Wars Gamer 6,

 

 

 

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

 

 

 

Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:

 

 

 

STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"

 

 

 

LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

 

 

 

Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:

 

 

 

CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

 

 

 

Pretty bad quality control. Right?

 

 

 

 

 

I just added in about Trek.

[Praeothmin 532]

Wow, this debate has progressed far too fast for my tastes...

 

A lot of material to read, and too much to reply too...

 

 

 

Quick points:

 

-Firepower: I've been over this many times with Questor and InvaderSkooj, so I won't start again.

 

Suffice it to say I too believe Photorps and Phasers are easily in the 100-150 Megaton range, so slight advantage Feds.

 

-Fleet size: the pictures you posted, InvaderSkooj, show dozens upon dozens of ships, with many ships hard to see because of the dark images, and their distribution in the picture clearly shows that these aren't the only ships in the fleet, and that there are many we do not see.

 

This is a picture of the Dominion-Cardassian fleet over Cardassia:

 

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/e/e2/Dominion_fleet_regroups_at_Cardassia_Prime.jpg/180px-Dominion_fleet_regroups_at_Cardassia_Prime.jpg&imgrefurl=http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Battle_of_Cardassia&usg=__LpprUL6Hh9SpHqKAZy_kQ6jLFNE=&h=136&w=180&sz=6&hl=en&start=4&itbs=1&tbnid=2WVtvgInDd26IM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcardassian%2B-%2Bdominion%2Bfleet%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

 

Still dark, but if you look closely, you can see many dozens of ships, easily over a hundred, and again with a distribution patern indicating we are certainly not seeing the whole fleet...

 

 

 

-Fleet composition: I agree with you, InvaderSkooj, the fleets seem to be mostly composed of older vessels, but even Excelsiors are still pretty good warships and can take a few punches before failing.

 

 

 

-Torpedo attacks: Fed ships have demonstrated time again the ability to fire multiple torpedoes, like the 10 torpedo GCS spread, or even Voyager's rapid 4 torpedo discharge.

 

And while they are using torpedoes, they can also fire Phasers, with effects similar to torpedoes even on shielded ships.

 

 

 

-Torpedo shields: Torpedoes have been fired in the heart of a sun, so they are pretty resistant to immense pressures and heat.

 

How powerful are those point defense guns on the Bolos?

 

 

 

That being said, I have not been able to follow the entire discussion, so I will not claim anything related to how well the ST fleet would fare.

 

These points above are solely to counter some points I felt were not adressed fully, and to say that in a one-on-one, I re-iterate that any but the oldest ST ships can win a fight against a Bolo.

 

But as far as fleets go, I have no clue...

 

 

 

 

[enigma 521]

Wow, this debate has progressed far too fast for my tastes...

 

A lot of material to read, and too much to reply too...

 

 

 

Quick points:

 

-Firepower: I've been over this many times with Questor and InvaderSkooj, so I won't start again.

 

Suffice it to say I too believe Photorps and Phasers are easily in the 100-150 Megaton range, so slight advantage Feds.

 

-Fleet size: the pictures you posted, InvaderSkooj, show dozens upon dozens of ships, with many ships hard to see because of the dark images, and their distribution in the picture clearly shows that these aren't the only ships in the fleet, and that there are many we do not see.

 

This is a picture of the Dominion-Cardassian fleet over Cardassia:

 

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/en/images/thumb/e/e2/Dominion_fleet_regroups_at_Cardassia_Prime.jpg/180px-Dominion_fleet_regroups_at_Cardassia_Prime.jpg&imgrefurl=http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Battle_of_Cardassia&usg=__LpprUL6Hh9SpHqKAZy_kQ6jLFNE=&h=136&w=180&sz=6&hl=en&start=4&itbs=1&tbnid=2WVtvgInDd26IM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcardassian%2B-%2Bdominion%2Bfleet%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

 

Still dark, but if you look closely, you can see many dozens of ships, easily over a hundred, and again with a distribution patern indicating we are certainly not seeing the whole fleet...

 

 

 

-Fleet composition: I agree with you, InvaderSkooj, the fleets seem to be mostly composed of older vessels, but even Excelsiors are still pretty good warships and can take a few punches before failing.

 

 

 

-Torpedo attacks: Fed ships have demonstrated time again the ability to fire multiple torpedoes, like the 10 torpedo GCS spread, or even Voyager's rapid 4 torpedo discharge.

 

And while they are using torpedoes, they can also fire Phasers, with effects similar to torpedoes even on shielded ships.

 

 

 

-Torpedo shields: Torpedoes have been fired in the heart of a sun, so they are pretty resistant to immense pressures and heat.

 

How powerful are those point defense guns on the Bolos?

 

 

 

That being said, I have not been able to follow the entire discussion, so I will not claim anything related to how well the ST fleet would fare.

 

These points above are solely to counter some points I felt were not adressed fully, and to say that in a one-on-one, I re-iterate that any but the oldest ST ships can win a fight against a Bolo.

 

But as far as fleets go, I have no clue...

 

 

 

Valid if you go with the 100 to 150MT. You go the high end and I'll go for the low end of low megaton range. Nevertheless, even with your generous yield it would do little good since the Bolo will not stay in one place. It will target the warp core, fire all of it's main weapons and shoot down incoming torps while at the same time it is moving. It would not stay in one place. The Fed starship captain will have to worry about 245MT being constantly being hit one area. The Bolo does not care for any other part of the ship except for the warp core. By the second volley the hull will be breached and the core will blow by the third volley.

 

 

 

Phasers are much weaker and the Bolo's battlescreens are powerful enough to shrug it off. In fact it'll absorb some of it to power it's weapons!

 

 

 

The Bolo's uses it's main and secondary weapons to for it's PD. Over a dozen 20\30cm hellbores 3 200cm Hellbores(2 for the MK 34) two Hellrails (MK 33 uses at least two 240cm Howitzers instead), and several VLMs.

 

 

 

You'll have a very hard time defeating a Bolo one on one especially those that are designed so that one is only needed to defend a planet. To gain the advantage over the Bolo you'll need to use more than one starship. Don't even think about engaging a ground battle with it as it'll be a slaughter.

[Praeothmin 532]

Valid if you go with the 100 to 150MT. You go the high end and I'll go for the low end of low megaton range. Nevertheless, even with your generous yield it would do little good since the Bolo will not stay in one place. It will target the warp core, fire all of it's main weapons and shoot down incoming torps while at the same time it is moving. It would not stay in one place. The Fed starship captain will have to worry about 245MT being constantly being hit one area. The Bolo does not care for any other part of the ship except for the warp core. By the second volley the hull will be breached and the core will blow by the third volley.

 

 

 

Phasers are much weaker and the Bolo's battlescreens are powerful enough to shrug it off. In fact it'll absorb some of it to power it's weapons!

 

 

 

The Bolo's uses it's main and secondary weapons to for it's PD. Over a dozen 20\30cm hellbores 3 200cm Hellbores(2 for the MK 34) two Hellrails (MK 33 uses at least two 240cm Howitzers instead), and several VLMs.

 

 

 

You'll have a very hard time defeating a Bolo one on one especially those that are designed so that one is only needed to defend a planet. To gain the advantage over the Bolo you'll need to use more than one starship. Don't even think about engaging a ground battle with it as it'll be a slaughter.

 

 

 

Can you prove Phasers are weaker to the point that the Bolo will shrug it off?

 

We've seen many battles in ST, and the weapon used the most isn't the Torpedo, it's the Phaser, even against shielded ships, so why should we assume that they are so much weaker?

 

Their mechanism isn't valid here, only the end result, which is almost on par with Torpedoes, so again, how do you know the Bolos would shrug them off?

 

 

 

And how would Bolos immediately know where to shoot?

 

And how do you know they are that precise?

 

The ST ships will also be moving, and since the Bolos' top speeds from what I read are in the 60-90mph, they're certainly not going to be much harder to hit then other ST ships...

 

Misses were pretty rare in DS9 (and I'm not talking about the directional Pulse Phasers of the Defiant, but the standard Phaser strips able to fire at a much wider angle)...

 

And while it uses its main weapons for PD, it is not using them to attack the ship, and if I recall, those weapons had a recharge rate of 4 seconds, so they won't be firing continuously...

 

 

 

As for the ground battle, I fail to see anything the Feds could throw at a Bolo except shuttles, and as I stated previously, shuttles would simply be destroyed without a sweat, so I agree about the futility of ground battles against the Bolo.

 

Heck, even the Empire would fail in a ground battle with the Bolo...

[Questor 501]

All I'm going to say is that bolos are limited to 60-90 while on their treads, I don't remember the top speed on their repulsars/ag.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Going buy the utter lack of any significant secondary effects when used in an atmosphere, and numerous references to phasers being gigawatt range despite the lack of even gigajoule range secondary effects, we can safely say phasers will be next to useless against battlescreens, bolos, and heavy wahships in general.

 

 

 

As for photon torpedo yield, I can say vanilla pudding is chocolate all day long, it still doesn't make it chocolate pudding, in other words have fun proving it.

 

 

 

Its also fairly moot anyway, as my extremely generous energy density calc shows, a 50MT omni-directional blast is over 12,840 times less intense than a 200cm hellbore.(ie to equal the energy density of a 200cm hellbore a photorp would need to be 642gigatons or so)

 

 

 

And then there's the whole intercepting 473-170G missiles in less than 5.4seconds( ie nearly the entire torpedo complement of 2 GCS)

 

 

 

 

 

On the same note, 100 megatons is only 10.001% of 999 megatons which means mathematically 100 megatons is a low megaton nuke of which an ancient MkXXVIII bolo can shrug off over two dozen.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

All I'm going to say is that bolos are limited to 60-90 while on their treads, I don't remember the top speed on their repulsars/ag.

 

Most later marks(after MkXX or so) were capable of 110-150km/h. All the Mk30+ were capable of 500km/h on treads or flying because of the ContraGrav

[InvaderSkooj 1]

 

BEHOLD THE AWESOME ACCURACY FROM LESS THAN 2 KILOMETERS

 

 

 

 

THEY ALMOST HIT SOMETHING

 

[Questor 501]

 

BEHOLD THE AWESOME ACCURACY FROM LESS THAN 2 KILOMETERS

 

 

 

Bad example, Big-E was badly damaged, and used the nebulas sensor shit to even the score.

 

 

 

You couldn't find anything from TNG, you had to besmirch my precious TMP?

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

NINJA-EDIT!!!!!

[enigma 521]

I'm a little gay fag that likes to take it up the ass

[Praeothmin 532]

Going buy the utter lack of any significant secondary effects when used in an atmosphere, and numerous references to phasers being gigawatt range despite the lack of even gigajoule range secondary effects, we can safely say phasers will be next to useless against battlescreens, bolos, and heavy wahships in general.

 

 

 

 

 

Problem with this reasoning is that these "useless" Phasers have similar effects to Photorps, as far as damage goes, on ST ships' shields, so if they are efficient on shields, then I see no reason the Battlescreen would fare any better...

 

And there are just as numerous examples pointing to higher numbers, but see below...

 

 

 

 

 

As for photon torpedo yield, I can say vanilla pudding is chocolate all day long, it still doesn't make it chocolate pudding, in other words have fun proving it.

 

 

 

Discussed in another thread back and forth, neither of us changed their minds, so I clearly have no intention of doing it again here...

 

 

 

 

 

Its also fairly moot anyway, as my extremely generous energy density calc shows, a 50MT omni-directional blast is over 12,840 times less intense than a 200cm hellbore.(ie to equal the energy density of a 200cm hellbore a photorp would need to be 642gigatons or so)

 

 

 

Didn't notice the calcs, but one quick question:

 

If the Torpedo impacts upon the target, does it really matter if the impact energy is concentrated all at the same place or if the entire shield being hit must absorb it?

 

The way we see shields work, the entire shield (like the Aft shield, for example) has to dissipate the energy that hits it, it doesn't seem to matter whether it comes from a dense source or not, whether Phasers or Photorps, the shields hold if the weapon isn't powerful enough, no matter how "dense" it is...

 

 

 

 

 

And then there's the whole intercepting 473-170G missiles in less than 5.4seconds( ie nearly the entire torpedo complement of 2 GCS)

 

 

 

 

Didn't see this, it is impressive indeed...

 

Seing less and less chance for the ST ships...

 

 

 

 

 

On the same note, 100 megatons is only 10.001% of 999 megatons which means mathematically 100 megatons is a low megaton nuke of which an ancient MkXXVIII bolo can shrug off over two dozen.

 

 

 

Wow, even more impressive...

 

 

 

Hmmm, I do think then, that the Bolo wins one on one.

 

Still, you are, again, comparing vehicules from 600-700 years in advance to those in ST.

 

If you were using Bolos from the late 2300s, this would be a very different matchup...

 

[Praeothmin 532]

 

BEHOLD THE AWESOME ACCURACY FROM LESS THAN 2 KILOMETERS

 

 

 

 

THEY ALMOST HIT SOMETHING

 

 

 

 

And you ignore, of course, "The Wounded" in TNG, where combat and hits occur at 250 000km range, and the DS9 engagements where Torpedoes and beam weapons were hitting ships and defense plarforms in the 10-20km range easily.

 

You forget to mention the fight in ST II was in a nebula that affected sensors and they had to go by visuals, while even the screen was giving bad images to use for targetting.

 

You ignore that, just as in SW, ST vessels can jam other vessels sensors (yes, they use ECM sometimes as well), etc, etc...

 

You ignore "Skin of Evil", where a 4m shuttle was targetted without problems by the E-D, at ranges far exceeding the 10-20km of the DS9 battles...

 

 

 

[Praeothmin 532]

The fact that the Bolos can shrug off multimegaton weapons. Phasers are weaker than the torps or else what is the use of having torps?

 

 

 

 

 

As you said, Phasers are more precise, and while they may be almost as powerful as individual Torpedoes, the ability to fire 4-6 torpedoes at the enemy at once will allow a "brute force" approach you don't have with Phasers.

 

Proximity detonation, fire and forget capabilities, and a lot more applications where missiles can be useful, as we've seen mutliple times in the shows...

 

 

 

 

 

Phasers are more precise than torps and they are not limited to the ammount of ammo on board. Phasers are weaker than torps. If they were not weaker then having torps would be redundant.

 

 

 

As I said, Phaser appear "almost as powerful", but I agree they may not necessarily be exactly as powerful.

 

Reasons for having torpedoes are listed above...

 

 

 

 

 

I forgot where I read it but there's a site that rectified all of the power generation number thrown about in TNG. Someone stated that the E-D may generate 12 billion terawatts (or arounf 2.8 gigtons) but for the weapons it only got 1 terrawatt(another figure mentioned in TNG I think in relation to the weapons). So if that is true then at most the phasers would have a yield of 239 tons. A lot weaker than torps don't you think? Good thing the Tech manual isn't included or else the yield would drop to 0.2 tons. Persona;;y I think that the phasers have a higher yield than 239 tons but nowhere near the torps.

 

 

 

As iI told InvaderSkooj, we've been over this many times, and there are also many quotes and incidents poiting to much higher power, but I have no intention of going into the discussion we had a while back...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They Bolo's will know where to attack. They have sensors and can detect the ship's energy source. Hector a MK 33 Bolo from "Bolo Rising" was able to one shot !*!*! ships's power sources despite the fact that the enemy were unknowns.

 

 

 

They are precise because just about every story involving Bolos attacking orbiting ships have the Bolos providing pinpoint precision.

 

 

 

Didn't read those novels, so I'll take your word for it...

 

 

 

 

 

Whoa! Where did you get 60-90mph? The top speed on contra gravs is 500kph.

 

 

 

Didn't know that, went from memory about onland speeds, probably older models...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are ignoring that the Bolos have secondary weapons that also be used for PD. 40 missiles per 3 seconds, 14 to 16 20\30cm Hellbores, plus the 2 240cm Howitzers. Plus depending on the MK 33 type, they are also known to carry one or two tanks.

 

 

 

The Bolos have more than enough weapons to act as PD and be able to attack the starship.

 

 

 

That's a helluva lot of weapons...

 

I think you may be right about the PD and attack...

 

As I said in response to InvaderSkooj, I stand corrected on the later Bolos' assessments, and now believe even the E-E wouldn't stand a chance vs the later Bolos...

 

 

 

 

 

The first part I completely agree but the last part I somewhat agree.

 

 

 

Wow, we agree on something...

[Tyralak 12,068]

I replied to your bashing of Saxton, complaining about his numbers which are backed by Lucas. Like it or not what he wrote is canon. Making it up or not makes no difference unless Lucasfilm says so.

 

 

 

I forgot all about this little nugget. The problem with this, is that you are effectively making the Ep 2 ICS and any other reference books the highest sort of canon. You're applying a negative proof philosophy to the EU instead of a positive proof philosophy. What do I mean by this? You're saying that books in the EU can make any ridiculous claim they want and it's canon unless something in the roughly 13 1/2 hours of motion picture DIRECTLY contradicts the claim. This is insane and impossible. When dealing with multiple levels of canon, you can't use a negative proof theory, or everything gets shot to hell. The claims made by lower canon sources must be at the very least supported by the films. The most egregious example is of course Saxton's fanwank. He makes bizarre claims about ridiculous firepower yields for Clone Wars era ships. There is NO indication WHATSOEVER by ANYTHING we see on film that those weapons can cause anything approaching that kind of damage. TCW (T canon) is on par with the movies, and further shows Saxton's figures to be bunk. In fact, his masturbatory fantasies aren't even backed up by the bulk of other EU literature.