What about Prometheus-class starship vs a Star Destoryer.

[Questor 501]

I might suggest very basic rules.

 

 

 

Do you have access to the old FAQ?

 

 

 

<Tyralak, it might be worth preserving that here, if only for historical value.>

 

 

 

The most important ones are the ones that make any real debate possible, the following (I've deleted some of the verbage.)

 

Rules of Engagement[/i]]

 

 

 

If you make a claim, you have to supply the evidence. Many members of the newsgroup, even veteran debaters who have been here for years, seem to have trouble with this concept, so I will say it again, and in bold: If you make a claim, you have to supply the evidence. Failure to do so is the quickest way to waste everyone's time, since all you'll get are a flood of replies asking for a source.

 

 

 

Note: This goes for stating old claims as well as new ones. This is necessary for two reasons:

 

 

 

1. To prevent Pregnant Kira Fallacies: For more than a year it was common knowledge that the character Kira was pregnant in "Way of the Warrior" when she beat up a Klingon. Cause it was an old claim no one bothered to do the research and back it up. When someone did do the research this bit of common knowledge was proved very wrong, and even then it was thought that Nana Visitor was pregnant at the time. A claim that if true would have meant she was pregnant for no less than 17 months.

 

 

 

• To Prevent Thread Overload: At any given time there could be as many as a dozen topics each with multiple threads and a dozen debaters in each one. Because of this it is hard for the best of us to keep track of who said what in response to who and where. Add in when, why and how and you can see the confusion build.

 

 

 

 

 

Canon Policy

 

 

 

 

You are responsible for doing your own research, all of the research. If you want to argue that A is better than B then you have to show evidence for the abilities of both A and B. Also, do the require research in the correct area of expertise. I.E. If you are researching Material Science go to a Material Science textbook or web site. Don't look up 'Alloy' in the dictionary and expect to be able to debate the topic.

 

 

 

No one can claim that established tech or abilities in one galaxy won't work in another, or that established tech or abilities won't work cause they are unscientific or unrealistic. That means that the pro-SW side can't claim that Warp Drives will stop functioning outside the ST galaxy, or that bat'leths will suddenly be brittle, or that transporters violate the Uncertainty Principle to they can't work. Similarly, the pro-ST side can't claim that there's no hyperspace for a hyperdrive to jump to, or that Jedi will suddenly lose all of their power, or 1e38 JOULES IS JUST TOO BIG!!!!! This gets us nowhere since there's absolutely no evidence either way and there never will be.

 

 

 

The Importance of Math: In this newsgroup science rules the day. And in most instances science is backed up with calculations. Unfortunately many people feel that their theories are so obvious that no math is needed to back them up. Quite frankly, we are all quite sick and tired of disproving these claims. While the obvious is sometimes right, many times it is not. In conclusion, just do the damn math.

 

 

 

Several of the others are as important, but either the formatting is difficult to replicate here, or the examples should be reworked to be a little less partisan.

 

 

 

 

I don't mean to suggest that the characters should always be taken seriously; obviously Data's line about a fish being an amphibian is just God aweful--but there's a reason for that. It was during the writer's strike and in the episode that was the crack of all shit TNG episodes The Outrageous Okana.

 

 

 

What's "Threshold"'s excuse?

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, the script is much closer to the intentions than a fucked up VFX and so it should be taken more seriously from a character who says that a 50 megaton bomb just went off rather than pick apart the VFX and say said character is basically a bat-shit moron because the cloud didn't last long enough; it's simply absurdities that people take too seriously. These aren't documentaries; they are TV shows. Let's treat them as such instead of holding them to a standard that will force 80% of all of it will fail to hold up to.

 

 

 

Unfortunately the canon policies of both CBS and Lucasfilm place the current visual editions as the most important evidence. I do think that visuals should be interpreted in conjunction with dialog, rather than overridden by them. I also disagree with the old Rule 1 because I think that we do need to take into account certain things when interpreting the visuals. The fact that the show would become visually boring if realistic ranges are used is a big one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose the underlying message is that people be reasonable, but I guess that's just a naive dream.

 

 

 

 

Geeze, you might as well ask for pink elephants and a pet unicorn while you are at it.

[Mith 0]

Do you have access to the old FAQ?

 

 

 

The old FAQ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What's "Threshold"'s excuse?

 

 

 

Well, Brannon Braga said he wanted to make an episode where they addressed that evolution wasn't always going to take humanity to the next level; that we might become less. He said that he learned his lesson, but later went on to try and do an entire series based off that premise...and it bombed.

 

 

 

In short, they were running low on weed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately the canon policies of both CBS and Lucasfilm place the current visual editions as the most important evidence.

 

 

 

Um...what? To what source do you have to back that up?

 

 

 

I do think that visuals should be interpreted in conjunction with dialog, rather than overridden by them. I also disagree with the old Rule 1 because I think that we do need to take into account certain things when interpreting the visuals. The fact that the show would become visually boring if realistic ranges are used is a big one.

 

 

 

Again, I don't mean to say that quotes should always be taken over visuals 100% of the time, but when we're going with weapon capabilities and characters who know better are being told that they're wrong because the visuals are either incapable of producing what the writers wanted or because someone fucked up--then we do need to question and more likely, dismiss it. Certainly, an argument of say hyperbole or some such is a good argument and one that should be taken seriously, but not when we're given in a very serious and precise manner as to what should be happening. Obviously if someone yells, "That thing could crack a planet!" we might wish to say, think twice if we just see several KT range nuclear explosions or if it's clear that the character may not being precise.

 

 

 

However, when an engineer or a scientist says that a weapon will destroy x and the episode considers it to have fulfilled this obligation, we shouldn't ignore it because it's not 100% visually correct, same as with your weapon range examples. If someone says 'they missed by a mile' when it was clearly seven meters, we can assume they're being rather loose with their language. But when someone says "this is a fifty megaton bomb" and the cloud lasts only x instead of y, then I think we can let it go.

 

 

 

It's more of a rule of thumb that should be supportable by the rest of the episode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Geeze, you might as well ask for pink elephants and a pet unicorn while you are at it.

 

 

 

Psh, I have three pink elephants and a green unicorn.

[Questor 501]

The old FAQ?

 

 

 

You whippersnappers! Get off my lawn!

 

 

 

I'm reposting the old R&Rs above, but here is a link.

 

 

 

 

Well, Brannon Braga said he wanted to make an episode where they addressed that evolution wasn't always going to take humanity to the next level; that we might become less. He said that he learned his lesson, but later went on to try and do an entire series based off that premise...and it bombed.

 

 

 

I love the fact that he has some excuse other than "I am a moron." How gullible does he think we are?

 

 

In short, they were running low on weed.

 

 

 

So they tried LSD?

 

 

 

 

Um...what? To what source do you have to back that up?

 

 

 

What you've just posted? About the G, T, and whatever levels on SW. On ST, it's always been pretty straightforward: The shows, maybe Mosaic, Pathways, and the TAS episode I can't remember the name of, and nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, I don't mean to say that quotes should always be taken over visuals 100% of the time, but when we're going with weapon capabilities and characters who know better are being told that they're wrong because the visuals are either incapable of producing what the writers wanted or because someone fucked up--then we do need to question and more likely, dismiss it. Certainly, an argument of say hyperbole or some such is a good argument and one that should be taken seriously, but not when we're given in a very serious and precise manner as to what should be happening. Obviously if someone yells, "That thing could crack a planet!" we might wish to say, think twice if we just see several KT range nuclear explosions or if it's clear that the character may not being precise.

 

 

 

Agreed, but if in the same statement they say "cascading exothermal inversion", can we admit that the obvious stupidity of the line contaminates it? I'm not necessarily talking about "TDiC" or the "True Q" scene, but a lot of scenes where measurements are used are so hopelessly contaminated by technobabble as to be unintelligible.

 

 

 

 

However, when an engineer or a scientist says that a weapon will destroy x and the episode considers it to have fulfilled this obligation, we shouldn't ignore it because it's not 100% visually correct, same as with your weapon range examples. If someone says 'they missed by a mile' when it was clearly seven meters, we can assume they're being rather loose with their language. But when someone says "this is a fifty megaton bomb" and the cloud lasts only x instead of y, then I think we can let it go.

 

 

 

I'd like them to be on the same order of magnitude, or at least the same prefix.

 

 

 

I don't think that we are substantially in disagreement. Probably only on details.

[Mith 0]

You whippersnappers! Get off my lawn!

 

 

 

I'm reposting the old R&Rs above, but here is a link.

 

 

 

Ah.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love the fact that he has some excuse other than "I am a moron." How gullible does he think we are?

 

 

 

Enterprise.

 

 

 

 

 

So they tried LSD?

 

 

 

Well, they did have 'multi-spectral engines', so probably.

 

 

 

What you've just posted? About the G, T, and whatever levels on SW. On ST, it's always been pretty straightforward: The shows, maybe Mosaic, Pathways, and the TAS episode I can't remember the name of, and nothing else.

 

 

 

Well yes, but that isn't because of what we see, so much as it is that they're involved and it's their product. Certainly that isn't to say that nothing on screen is important of course.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed, but if in the same statement they say "cascading exothermal inversion", can we admit that the obvious stupidity of the line contaminates it? I'm not necessarily talking about "TDiC" or the "True Q" scene, but a lot of scenes where measurements are used are so hopelessly contaminated by technobabble as to be unintelligible.

 

 

 

Well, certainly lines that make no lick of sense should be discounted. For example, quotes from The Survivors indicating that a fraking starship getting its ass kicked by a ship with GJ level weapons even though both ships should logically be much stronger (ie, that same ship wasted the planet's surface and the Enterprise, knowing this before the enemy fired, were willing to fight). Or for something much simplier, Data calling a fish an amphibian or the half-ass statement from the Royale where Picard mentioned a mental puzzle that no one had ever solved--which was later solved (although DS9 tried to cover their asses on that one, but the point still remains).

 

 

 

Or Spock's idea of half an ounce of antimatter blowing off half the atmosphere of a planet--they writers didn't know that while powerful, antimatter wasn't that powerful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like them to be on the same order of magnitude, or at least the same prefix.

 

 

 

I don't think that we are substantially in disagreement. Probably only on details.

 

 

 

I would agree. I think we should as a rule of thumb, take plot and dialogue over visuals, save for when it's rather apparent that the character is just plain talking out their ass.

 

 

 

Like half of Voyager...

[Praeothmin 532]

Like most of Voyager...

 

 

 

Corrected it for you Mith...

[Jason 27]

If a tircorder can confuse inferred light waves. Prometheus-class starship should be able to do the same thing Star destroyers sensors. We likely same thing Radar as will watch this video see how tircorder can jam inferred light.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdAX0TQjHFE&feature=related

[Questor 501]

If a tircorder can confuse inferred light waves. Prometheus-class starship should be able to do the same thing Star destroyers sensors. We likely same thing Radar as will watch this video see how tircorder can jam inferred light.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdAX0TQjHFE&feature=related

 

 

 

Right, except for the fact that if it were that easy, everyone and their dog would have cloaking devices.

 

 

 

How come this one off ability is never used again, by the way?

[Jason 27]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU9a79uocrw&feature=related

Here another example tircorder doing about the same job.

[Tyralak 12,068]

It is a step down from G-Canon and a step up from C-Canon

 

 

 

Canon Levels

 

 

 

But I wonder where the ICS and other similar material fall under? G or C?

 

 

 

Obviously C. As much as you'd like it to be G it just isn't. Not even close.

[enigma 521]

Obviously C. As much as you'd like it to be G it just isn't. Not even close.

 

 

 

Nevertheless it still carries a lot of weight. ST tech manuals are equal to toilet paper. Some may say that the manual isn't worth the ass it is being wiped on.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Nevertheless it still carries a lot of weight. ST tech manuals are equal to toilet paper. Some may say that the manual isn't worth the ass it is being wiped on.

 

 

 

I never claimed they did. Not would I want them to. They contain some extremely inaccurate things. Trek canon is very clear and concise. Wars canon, OTOH is a lot like the income tax code.

[enigma 521]

I never claimed they did. Not would I want them to. They contain some extremely inaccurate things. Trek canon is very clear and concise. Wars canon, OTOH is a lot like the income tax code.

 

 

 

Yet LucasBooks and Lucas Licensing are doing their best to keep it in line. Trek canon contains innumerable inconsistencies that Paramount and B&B (at the time) did not(or maybe still don't) care.

 

 

 

Also I never claimed that the ICS was G-canon nor did I say that I wanted it to be so. I asked if it fell into G canon or was it completely in C-canon.

[Praeothmin 532]

Yet LucasBooks and Lucas Licensing are doing their best to keep it in line. Trek canon contains innumerable inconsistencies that Paramount and B&B (at the time) did not(or maybe still don't) care.

 

 

 

SW books also contain numerous inconsistencies.

 

For example, in the Thrawn trilogy books (said books are considered some of the best SW novels ever written), a ridiculous fleet of 200 Dreadnaughts is considered important enough that it can shift the balance of the fight to whomever gets it, even though it takes 3 Dreadnaughts to beat 1 ISD...

 

Admiral Dalaa's bombardment leaving forest fires from the heavier guns on her SSD...

 

A dozen X-wings taking down the shields of an ISD before said ISD has time to destroy them with it's Gton weapons...

 

 

 

And many, many others...

 

 

 

So I think it's simply best to say that both Canon are fucked up beyond repair, and we geeks need to deal with it as best we can...