Questor 501 Posted January 2, 2010 Greetings. I am the Prophet of Truth, you will now bowdown before me or burn under the firepower of tens of thousands of Covenant ships. I look foward to the Vs. debates in which I pwn nearly everyone else with a Covenant fleet. [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth A Covenant fleet? <cue hysterical laughter> The guys who got their asses kicked by a single man in a power armor suit? <cue hysterical laughter> Are you seriously going to tell me that you think that a video game empire could prevail against people who actually DO dwarf the powerful of the ST and SW universes? I will take your Covenant fleet <hysterical laughter again> and raise you the Fifth Imperium. And in the next round, I'll raise you the fucking CULTURE. The Covenant <hysterical laughter> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 2, 2010 A Covenant fleet? <cue hysterical laughter> The guys who got their asses kicked by a single man in a power armor suit? <cue hysterical laughter> Are you seriously going to tell me that you think that a video game empire could prevail against people who actually DO dwarf the powerful of the ST and SW universes? I will take your Covenant fleet <hysterical laughter again> and raise you the Fifth Imperium. And in the next round, I'll raise you the fucking CULTURE. The Covenant <hysterical laughter> You are now a Covenant target for glassing, *Cue Multi-Teraton Plasma Torpedos being fired at 0.5 C* One guy in a power suit? Oh, so the UNSC marines didn't exist, neither did Cortana who hacked the hell out of everything, and neither did the Flood now, huh? Oh, and the fact that the guy in power armor happened to be so badass that he fought through odds that should be impossible. Since their is no proof of an MC in ST or SW they are both glassed. *Runs away from Fifth Imperium and Culture* I'm not insane, I know right where I stand in Sci-Fi firepower scale with the Covenant. *Sends Forerunner Fleet after Fifth Imperium and has Halo's put in place to wipe out the population of the Culture before moving in to take out the Minds with Slipspace ruptures* [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted January 2, 2010 You are now a Covenant target for glassing, *Cue Multi-Teraton Plasma Torpedos being fired at 0.5 C* One guy in a power suit? Oh, so the UNSC marines didn't exist, neither did Cortana who hacked the hell out of everything, and neither did the Flood now, huh? Oh, and the fact that the guy in power armor happened to be so badass that he fought through odds that should be impossible. Since their is no proof of an MC in ST or SW they are both glassed. *Runs away from Fifth Imperium and Culture* I'm not insane, I know right where I stand in Sci-Fi firepower scale with the Covenant. *Sends Forerunner Fleet after Fifth Imperium and has Halo's put in place to wipe out the population of the Culture before moving in to take out the Minds with Slipspace ruptures* [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth Numbers please, moron. I've already taken apart one idiot on this forum, are you going to provide any evidence for your idiotic claims? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 2, 2010 Numbers please, moron. I've already taken apart one idiot on this forum, are you going to provide any evidence for your idiotic claims? Pg. 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia. MAC GUN The Magnetic Accelerator Cannon [MAC] Gun is one of the largest [and best] weapons that the UNSC has in its fleet. Utilizing thousands of magnetic relays, it can ram a 600-ton projectile at nearly forty percent the speed of light. *Skiping stuff about slow reload time and battle of Reach* VARIANTS STABILZED VARIANT: The "Super" Mac or "Big" Mac is five-hundred percent larger than the ship-based original and is capable of firing a 3,000-ton slug at nearly half the speed of light. Due to its size, a Super MAC can only be stationed on planets or orbital weapons platforms. Ship MAC round at 40 PSL = 1.17 Teratons of TNT. SMAC round at 50 PSL = 9.98 Teratons of TNT. For more proof you have Halo:CE where we see the PoA go off, and using the SDN Nuke Calculator, it comes out to the mid-double digit TT area. I also have the isance acceleration rates from the books and games that need far more then should be possible with fusion. For the books: TFoR: a frigate is stated by the Cpation to be able to do 80 million KPH. First Strike: Frigate with a Covenant ships straped on does 10,000 kms in 18 seconds from a stand still. The Games: End of Halo:CE: Longsword is 15,000-20,000 thousand kms away from the PoA when it blows. This took about a minute and a half. End of Halo 3: The FUD does a greater distance in about the same amount of time. What these ships do should be far beyond what fusion should allow, but they somehow manage these feats. I also have pg. 8 of The Fall of Reach in which a Covenant fleet of 36 ships boiled away the oceans and atmosphere of a planet in one hour. *Plasma Torpedos hit with dozens of Teratons of force* [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted January 2, 2010 Pg. 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia. Ship MAC round at 40 PSL = 1.17 Teratons of TNT. SMAC round at 50 PSL = 9.98 Teratons of TNT. For more proof you have Halo:CE where we see the PoA go off, and using the SDN Nuke Calculator, it comes out to the mid-double digit TT area. I also have the isance acceleration rates from the books and games that need far more then should be possible with fusion. For the books: TFoR: a frigate is stated by the Cpation to be able to do 80 million KPH. First Strike: Frigate with a Covenant ships straped on does 10,000 kms in 18 seconds from a stand still. The Games: End of Halo:CE: Longsword is 15,000-20,000 thousand kms away from the PoA when it blows. This took about a minute and a half. End of Halo 3: The FUD does a greater distance in about the same amount of time. What these ships do should be far beyond what fusion should allow, but they somehow manage these feats. I also have pg. 8 of The Fall of Reach in which a Covenant fleet of 36 ships boiled away the oceans and atmosphere of a planet in one hour. *Plasma Torpedos hit with dozens of Teratons of force* [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth And have you actually read the source material on the Culture and The Fifth Imperium? Can you even tell me the AUTHORS involved without googling? I'll give you a hint, ONE planetoid is capable of doing more damage than your Covenant fleet. BTW, dipshit, did you do the math on that yourself? Because you did the math wrong, you're off by several orders of magnitude, and the fact that you are not giving me actual units suggests that you are just another idiot fanboy. How did you use the SDN nuclear effects calculator? What are your variables, what is the basis for using them? How did you scale? As for the accelerations, why don't you actually put those into SI units - you do know what those are, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted January 2, 2010 Pg. 316 of the Halo Encyclopedia. Ship MAC round at 40 PSL = 1.17 Teratons of TNT. SMAC round at 50 PSL = 9.98 Teratons of TNT. For more proof you have Halo:CE where we see the PoA go off, and using the SDN Nuke Calculator, it comes out to the mid-double digit TT area. I also have the isance acceleration rates from the books and games that need far more then should be possible with fusion. For the books: TFoR: a frigate is stated by the Cpation to be able to do 80 million KPH. First Strike: Frigate with a Covenant ships straped on does 10,000 kms in 18 seconds from a stand still. The Games: End of Halo:CE: Longsword is 15,000-20,000 thousand kms away from the PoA when it blows. This took about a minute and a half. End of Halo 3: The FUD does a greater distance in about the same amount of time. What these ships do should be far beyond what fusion should allow, but they somehow manage these feats. I also have pg. 8 of The Fall of Reach in which a Covenant fleet of 36 ships boiled away the oceans and atmosphere of a planet in one hour. *Plasma Torpedos hit with dozens of Teratons of force* [END TRANSMISSION] -UnTruth 80 million KPH is equal to 22,222KPS which is 7.4% of the speed of light. Trek ships exceed that on one quarter impulse alone. Trek ships alone can warp while tractoring other starships. Just to let you know, they can go into warp from a standstill. This alone vastly exceeds 10,000kms in 18secs. Being 20,000kms away from explosion within 90seconds is laughable since a Trek ship can exceed that distance easily within the same timeframe or with one second of going Warp One can land a Trek ship almost 15 times that distance. Theoretically (I know Trekkies here will dispute me saying that word) Trek ships can do the same thing. Get the same number of Trek ships, get their phasers calibrated for drilling and they can raise the temperature of a planet to the point of killing off all life and even boil away the oceans. Also they can destroy the atmosphere too. The tech is there it is just the willingness isn't. As for the MAC and SMAC numbers, I am trying to figure that one out. But for some reasons (I must be messing up with the numbers) I get 0.0001 and 0.007 tons respectively. That cannot be right. Got to try it again. Made the adjustments and it turns out that it is 17.2KT and 107.6KT respectively. Still not impressive. Today's nukes can easily exceed that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted January 2, 2010 Oh yay now a moronic haloite as well. Covenant ships are vulnerable to proximity detonated 30MT HORNET mines, which means they are vulnerable to ST weapons. RotS: ICS, states a Venator class SD is capable of annihilating 40,000tons of hypermatter a second, and also says its DBY-827 HTLs are capable of taking the entire reactor output, equating to a 3.6e24J broadside. The ISB states the size of a sector group/fleet at 1600 warships we know from various other sources there are over 1000 sectors in the empire, putting the imperial fleet at over 1.6million ships SW outguns and outnumbers the covenant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 3, 2010 And have you actually read the source material on the Culture and The Fifth Imperium?Can you even tell me the AUTHORS involved without googling?I'll give you a hint, ONE planetoid is capable of doing more damage than your Covenant fleet.BTW, dipshit, did you do the math on that yourself? Because you did the math wrong, you're off by several orders of magnitude, and the fact that you are not giving me actual units suggests that you are just another idiot fanboy.How did you use the SDN nuclear effects calculator? What are your variables, what is the basis for using them? How did you scale?As for the accelerations, why don't you actually put those into SI units - you do know what those are, right? No, I haven't read the books, I've seen enough though lurking around SBC to know only the Forerunner even stand a chance, and a small one at that. Iain Banks for Culture, don't know about the Fifth Imp. The normal Ships MAC yield was posted at SBC as 1.17 Teratons of TNT per shot for a 600 ton round at 40 PSL. SMAC was 8.1 but I found a link for an online calculator that gives a higher yield of 9.98 Teratons of TNT for 3000 ton SMAC round at 50 PSL. Link: http://www.1728.com/energy.htm After adding in about the ten percent that this calculator leaves out I get the yields that seem to go with the ones at SBC and *Shudder in pure terror* Halopedia very well. On the PoA. As the Longsword was passing the other side of the ring I calc the section the PoA on to be about 315 kilometers in width up/down relative to the Chief in the Longsword. That puts the fireball of the PoA at about 1,000-12,00 kilometers in diameter. It seems I misremember though were it was in TNT because putting it in at SDN again I got a smaller fireball so upped it to 120,000,000 megatons and the fireball size was about right. And that only left 5 kilometer crater in the ring (ref. Halo: The Flood). And now a nice little link to a thread at SBC talking about Halo ship firepower: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?p=4512191#post4512191 pg. 3, post 60 has some good calcs on acceleration. Also look at the posts by SBer Nameless on pg. 4 of the thread because of the good points made there. Everything I need to prove Halo firepower, even if is lower then Teratons in some cases, is right there in that thread. 80 million KPH is equal to 22,222KPS which is 7.4% of the speed of light. Trek ships exceed that on one quarter impulse alone.Trek ships alone can warp while tractoring other starships. Just to let you know, they can go into warp from a standstill. This alone vastly exceeds 10,000kms in 18secs.Being 20,000kms away from explosion within 90seconds is laughable since a Trek ship can exceed that distance easily within the same timeframe or with one second of going Warp One can land a Trek ship almost 15 times that distance.Theoretically (I know Trekkies here will dispute me saying that word) Trek ships can do the same thing. Get the same number of Trek ships, get their phasers calibrated for drilling and they can raise the temperature of a planet to the point of killing off all life and even boil away the oceans. Also they can destroy the atmosphere too. The tech is there it is just the willingness isn't.As for the MAC and SMAC numbers, I am trying to figure that one out. But for some reasons (I must be messing up with the numbers) I get 0.0001 and 0.007 tons respectively. That cannot be right. Got to try it again. :)Made the adjustments and it turns out that it is 17.2KT and 107.6KT respectively. Still not impressive. Today's nukes can easily exceed that. On the acceleration you can look at the thread at SBC I linked to that has the calcs which make my point that Halo fusion is nothing like real world fusion. And above you will note calcs for UNSC MAC guns and the PoA going off. Oh yay now a moronic haloite as well. Covenant ships are vulnerable to proximity detonated 30MT HORNET mines, which means they are vulnerable to ST weapons. RotS: ICS, states a Venator class SD is capable of annihilating 40,000tons of hypermatter a second, and also says its DBY-827 HTLs are capable of taking the entire reactor output, equating to a 3.6e24J broadside. The ISB states the size of a sector group/fleet at 1600 warships we know from various other sources there are over 1000 sectors in the empire, putting the imperial fleet at over 1.6million shipsSW outguns and outnumbers the covenant. Oh, wow, just because I’m a Haloite and support high Gigaton to low Teratons of TNT for firepower I’m a moron. Wow, so you just dump us all in one area in which we all equal idiots, huh? Oh, and you left out how those Covenant ships had heavy battle damage from combat with Onyx Drones and a goddamn UNSC ship blowing up in THE MIDDLE OF THE GODDAMN COVENANT FLEET! And next we have a double standard you pulled there: You laugh at the .4C quote and and an inconsistent low firepower then turn around and cite the 800 Teratons with a straight face. So, now for some quotes from SW books besides ICS since you want to pull a double standard: "He tightened down on the trigger, pulsing kilojoules of scarlet energy into an eyeball's cockpit." [“X-Wing: The Krytos Trap“.54 ] Kilo-joules - not mega- or giga-joules come out of fighter laser cannons. " Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan." [“X-Wing: Isard’s Revenge†p. 7] This appears to say 100 capitol class laser cannon produce only terajoules energy - as in less than 100. See, two can play at this game. Now I rise your 800 Teratons with a low end NOVA Bomb calc found at SBC and Halopedia: Halopedia on NOVA Bomb yield: Assumptions: the moon is 2km, and the NOVA bomb is only 5,000 km away. Calc: Apply the Inverse Squared Law: Source Energy / (4 * Pi * R2) the radius is the distance from the source to the range. x/ (4 * 3.14195... * 5,0002) = 4 Megatons per square kilometer to fragment a 2km moon which requires 8 Megatons to be fragmented. x = 1.2 Petatons. Some may find this yield hard to believe for a fusion device, but the stated effects to the planet and nearby moon require explosive power of this magnitude. And if I remember correctly the NOVA Bomb is about the size of an SUV and has nine fusion warheads. That sort of shoots down any idea of the lower yields, because if the UNSC could create this and Covenant ships could be taken out by MT level warheads then why didn't they just use the resources needed to create one NOVA Bomb to spam a Covenant fleet with dozens of nukes? Now: *Throws Xeeleeverse at 5th Imp and Culture* [END TRANSMISSION] -Truth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted January 3, 2010 No, I haven't read the books, I've seen enough though lurking around SBC to know only the Forerunner even stand a chance, and a small one at that. Iain Banks for Culture, don't know about the Fifth Imp. THEN YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! <Tyralak - I want bigger fonts please> Go read a goddamn book and then explain to me exactly how your pathetic video game civilization is going to take on either civilization. And you know what, lets throw the 4th Imperium in there, too. Simply because the idea of smashing Halo-wankers dreams with more planetoids than they can count makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. The members of this board are well versed in just about every single science fiction series in literature/film/television/video games. If you want to play with us, you better be prepared. On the PoA. As the Longsword was passing the other side of the ring I calc the section the PoA on to be about 315 kilometers in width up/down relative to the Chief in the Longsword. That puts the fireball of the PoA at about 1,000-12,00 kilometers in diameter. It seems I misremember though were it was in TNT because putting it in at SDN again I got a smaller fireball so upped it to 120,000,000 megatons and the fireball size was about right. And that only left 5 kilometer crater in the ring (ref. Halo: The Flood). Which proves: 1. You're a moron who can only use internet calculators. 2, That the game designers are bigger morons than you are. (Of course, they designed Halo: Combat Evolved, so my starting assumption should have been "brain-dead" and worked down from there.) 3. The explosion was non-nuclear/antimatter, and did not function by creating a true fireball. 4. The game designers are morons. 5. You have no idea why a fireball forms. 6. The game designers are morons. 7. You have no understanding of why I am doing this. 8. The game designers are morons. 9. You are a video game wank-tard. Please figure out why I am laughing at a 5,000 Km radius fireball. I want visual evidence from the game of this fireball please. Also, since you are making such an extraordinary claim NO DIALOG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 3, 2010 THEN YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! <Tyralak - I want bigger fonts please> Go read a goddamn book and then explain to me exactly how your pathetic video game civilization is going to take on either civilization. And you know what, lets throw the 4th Imperium in there, too. Simply because the idea of smashing Halo-wankers dreams with more planetoids than they can count makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. The members of this board are well versed in just about every single science fiction series in literature/film/television/video games. If you want to play with us, you better be prepared. Which proves: 1. You're a moron who can only use internet calculators. 2, That the game designers are bigger morons than you are. (Of course, they designed Halo: Combat Evolved, so my starting assumption should have been "brain-dead" and worked down from there.) 3. The explosion was non-nuclear/antimatter, and did not function by creating a true fireball. 4. The game designers are morons. 5. You have no idea why a fireball forms. 6. The game designers are morons. 7. You have no understanding of why I am doing this. 8. The game designers are morons. 9. You are a video game wank-tard. Please figure out why I am laughing at a 5,000 Km radius fireball. I want visual evidence from the game of this fireball please. Also, since you are making such an extraordinary claim NO DIALOG. A. Please explain to me what Halo being a video game has to do with this at all. B. Please point out were I ever claimed that I could take the Culture or 5th Imp since that seems to be what you are saying, because I said “most†in my post there. Also, wouldn’t the 4th Empire be better because it had a million planetoids? C. HAVE FAITH IN MY ABILITY TO LOOK SHIT UP! It worked when I was looking for the ringworld books by Larry Niven...but then those came close to causing my second bookcase ot collapse. 1. So what the frak? What did I do wrong then with the calculator and what the hell is wrong with not being able to do them? Not everyone can do all the calculations themselves and I've done well enough before in Vs. debates. 2. Which you have no proof of. Also: Welcome to the Sci-fi universe know as HALO where ships are made out of super Weberfoam, see the amazing 4000 ton UNSC frigate from TFoR, and the amazing 20,000 ton Covenant battle group of 4 ships, two frigates, a destroyer and a carrier, stated be larger then any known Covenant ship. 3. Pg. 340 of Halo: The Flood. As the cruiser's fusion drives went critical, a compact sun blossomed on the surface of Halo. Its thermonuclear sphere carved a five-kilometer crater into the superdense ring mate- rial and sent powerful pressure waves rippling throughout the structure. Both up- and down-spin of the explosion, the fireball flattened and sterilized the surface terrain. Within moments, the yellow-white core had consumed all of the available fuel, collapsed upon itself, and winked out. Noted as being fusion based and coming from the PoA. 4. Prove it, because Burden of Proof is on you to show that it was not what the designers wanted. 5. Right. How about explaining why that hurts my position when I have plenty of other canon events to support me (pg. 8 of TFoR, FUD at end of Halo 3 doing 20,000 plus kms in 90 seconds etc.etc)? 6. See four. 7. I admit I don‘t have a complete grasp. 8. See four and six. 9. So your entire argument is "LOL! Don't listen to him because I don't like Halo!"? I mean no offensive, but there is hard sci-fi, and then there's possibly worse then ST, Halo. 10. 5,000 km radius? Put in 120 Teratons,(120,000,000 megatons) in the calculator and you get this for the three types of radius listed: Fireball radius (minimum) 736.9 kilometers Fireball radius (airburst) 900.6 kilometers Fireball radius (ground-contact airburst) 1187.2 kilometers Which all happen to be fall in about the right area for the PoA. Link: Fusion reactors go critical at 0:56. Now I know what your going to say: “The fireball didn’t last long enough!†Solution: When the PoA went off it may have knocked out the AG on that section of the ring and blasted the atmosphere clear. As we all know, a nuclear fireball doesn't last a fraction as long in vacuum as amosphere. Now, what is your problem with Halo? Is it just because of that one idiot you told me about? Or the fact it has some of the worse consistency in sci-fi? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted January 3, 2010 Wow, I'm overheated. That's like the third person I've bitten their head off for no good reason today. A. Please explain to me what Halo being a video game has to do with this at all. Only in that it has to do with the attitudes (and ages) of the people who bring up the debate. Most Halo-supporters are middle-school aged kids, and they generally don't have the education to play at our level. You seem to be an exception. B. Please point out were I ever claimed that I could take the Culture or 5th Imp since that seems to be what you are saying, because I said “most†in my post there. Also, wouldn’t the 4th Empire be better because it had a million planetoids? *Sends Forerunner Fleet after Fifth Imperium and has Halo's put in place to wipe out the population of the Culture before moving in to take out the Minds with Slipspace ruptures* C. HAVE FAITH IN MY ABILITY TO LOOK SHIT UP! It worked when I was looking for the ringworld books by Larry Niven...but then those came close to causing my second bookcase ot collapse. Actually, since you don't seem to be an idiot, I'll point you to a place where you can get the entire Dahak (Imperium) series for free. They're good reads, check them out. 1. So what the frak? What did I do wrong then with the calculator and what the hell is wrong with not being able to do them? Not everyone can do all the calculations themselves and I've done well enough before in Vs. debates. The calculators are generally algebraic representations of more complex concepts, and it comes into play here, but the big part of the problem is I read 12,00 as 12,000. With either of these figures, you have to start including complex calculations relating to atmospheric density in the fireball calculation, though. The big key is to make sure that you know roughly where the calculator's model breaks down - in this case, at the edge of the atmosphere. 2. Which you have no proof of. Also: Welcome to the Sci-fi universe know as HALO where ships are made out of super Weberfoam, see the amazing 4000 ton UNSC frigate from TFoR, and the amazing 20,000 ton Covenant battle group of 4 ships, two frigates, a destroyer and a carrier, stated be larger then any known Covenant ship. For our purposes, they are morons. For the same reason as you will hear me describe most non-literary (and a lot of literary) sci-fi writers/producers as morons. They are limited by their medium. We have to assume they are morons because otherwise you get things like an engineer claiming that 1 terawatt is the power output of his ship. This happens because the writers are used to the shorthand that we use in our everyday lives, like terawatt being used to mean terawatt-hour (or more accurately megawatt and megawatt-hour). We have to throw that kind of data out, because it very rarely jives with what is shown on-screen, or with basic logic. 3. Pg. 340 of Halo: The Flood. Noted as being fusion based and coming from the PoA. <Hey, Paul! is there a way to include the previous level of quotes in the quote?> This comes back to the typo/mis-read issue above. 4. Prove it, because Burden of Proof is on you to show that it was not what the designers wanted. 5. Right. How about explaining why that hurts my position when I have plenty of other canon events to support me (pg. 8 of TFoR, FUD at end of Halo 3 doing 20,000 plus kms in 90 seconds etc.etc)? 6. See four. 7. I admit I don‘t have a complete grasp. 8. See four and six. 9. So your entire argument is "LOL! Don't listen to him because I don't like Halo!"? I mean no offensive, but there is hard sci-fi, and then there's possibly worse then ST, Halo. As I said, I wet too hot on that based on a typo. 10. 5,000 km radius? Put in 120 Teratons,(120,000,000 megatons) in the calculator and you get this for the three types of radius listed: Fireball radius (minimum) 736.9 kilometers Fireball radius (airburst) 900.6 kilometers Fireball radius (ground-contact airburst) 1187.2 kilometers Which all happen to be fall in about the right area for the PoA. Link: Fusion reactors go critical at 0:56. Actually, I would say that that might be a larger explosion than that, given that they light completely obscures the ring, which I believe is closer to 500 kilometers wide. The problem being the 5 KM crater, which we could put down to the existence of something like scrith. Now I know what your going to say: “The fireball didn’t last long enough!†Solution: When the PoA went off it may have knocked out the AG on that section of the ring and blasted the atmosphere clear. As we all know, a nuclear fireball doesn't last a fraction as long in vacuum as amosphere. Which was the point I was trying to get at, even at 1200 km radius, we are not dealing with an atmospheric burst. And calculating yield on non-atmospheric bursts is harder, as you have to use luminosity. And nope, I think that's just about right actually. I don't have the time, nor are the graphics really good enough to do the space-burst calculations on that though. Now, what is your problem with Halo? Is it just because of that one idiot you told me about? Or the fact it has some of the worse consistency in sci-fi? My issues with Halo is from the people who usually support it. Generally on verse boards, you get Halo supporters showing up during breaks form school, and they are coming in because they are bored and think they know everything. They generally have a "no-numbers" attitude that boils down to "Master Chief kicks ass, so there." And if you spank them to hard, they go and call down a 4chan invasion. Gamer boards have a VERY bad reputation for being both "miss manners" and cesspits at the same time, and that is normally where the "game wankers" hang out. Similar issues come up with Battletech/Mechwarrior (although that one gets interesting over at the official forums because they DO have engineers there), Halo, Half-Life, Starcraft, and any innumerable other video game franchises. Attitudes tend to be similar to mecha-wankers, who refuse to accept that any advantage you give a mech will just give traditional armor an even better advantage. As I said above, something seems to be pissing me off today (aside from the fact that I can't spell because for some reason), and I probably went a little too hot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 3, 2010 Sorry it took so long to reply, but I've been busy. Wow, I'm overheated. That's like the third person I've bitten their head off for no good reason today. No harm done, its happen to me too. Only in that it has to do with the attitudes (and ages) of the people who bring up the debate. Most Halo-supporters are middle-school aged kids, and they generally don't have the education to play at our level. You seem to be an exception. I understand, because that is one of the reasons I don't trust anything from Halopedia without checking three times. B. Please point out were I ever claimed that I could take the Culture or 5th Imp since that seems to be what you are saying, because I said “most†in my post there. Also, wouldn’t the 4th Empire be better because it had a million planetoids? *Sends Forerunner Fleet after Fifth Imperium and has Halo's put in place to wipe out the population of the Culture before moving in to take out the Minds with Slipspace ruptures* Ah, I had a brain fart there and was thinking about the Covenant, I forgot about the Forerunner bit I mentioned with how busy I've been right now. As I said before though I don't think even the Forerunner would stand a chance really, but that may depend on what the new Forerunner books add. Actually, since you don't seem to be an idiot, I'll point you to a place where you can get the entire Dahak (Imperium) series for free. They're good reads, check them out. Thank you, I'll check it out after I'm done reading "Sphere" in a few days. The calculators are generally algebraic representations of more complex concepts, and it comes into play here, but the big part of the problem is I read 12,00 as 12,000. With either of these figures, you have to start including complex calculations relating to atmospheric density in the fireball calculation, though. The big key is to make sure that you know roughly where the calculator's model breaks down - in this case, at the edge of the atmosphere. I'll put this in my list of things I should read about. For our purposes, they are morons. For the same reason as you will hear me describe most non-literary (and a lot of literary) sci-fi writers/producers as morons. They are limited by their medium. We have to assume they are morons because otherwise you get things like an engineer claiming that 1 terawatt is the power output of his ship. This happens because the writers are used to the shorthand that we use in our everyday lives, like terawatt being used to mean terawatt-hour (or more accurately megawatt and megawatt-hour). We have to throw that kind of data out, because it very rarely jives with what is shown on-screen, or with basic logic. Hm, I see. This comes back to the typo/mis-read issue above.As I said, I wet too hot on that based on a typo. That's ok, I've mis-read plenty of times myself. *Snip*. As I said above, something seems to be pissing me off today (aside from the fact that I can't spell because for some reason), and I probably went a little too hot. I understand, I've seen enough of those types of rabid fanboys around when looking at sites. And as I said before its ok, I've mis-read enough times myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted January 3, 2010 Link: http://www.1728.com/energy.htm And as I told you at SB, use the SDN calculator it accounts for relativity Oh, wow, just because I’m a Haloite and support high Gigaton to low Teratons of TNT for firepower I’m a moron. Wow, so you just dump us all in one area in which we all equal idiots, huh?No by all means produce a quote for ten-thousand ships, and given the conflicting nature of halo canon only an idiot really believes the high GT- TT calcs Oh, and you left out how those Covenant ships had heavy battle damage from combat with Onyx Drones and a goddamn UNSC ship blowing up in THE MIDDLE OF THE GODDAMN COVENANT FLEET! Irrelevant when they're supposed to tank a TT MAC round or three, they should be able to tank megaton proximity explosions And next we have a double standard you pulled there: You laugh at the .4C quote and and an inconsistent low firepower then turn around and cite the 800 Teratons with a straight face. So, now for some quotes from SW books besides ICS since you want to pull a double standard: Kilo-joules - not mega- or giga-joules come out of fighter laser cannons. This appears to say 100 capitol class laser cannon produce only terajoules energy - as in less than 100. See, two can play at this game. Still doesnt change the fact SW canon numbers are bigger. 600tons @ 30,000m/s, of which covenant ships only take 2-3, and archer missiles with their HE warheads are viable antiship weapons. SW most pathetic showings are overridden by movie canon, which sadly isnt the case for halo Now I rise your 800 Teratons with a low end NOVA Bomb calc found at SBC and Halopedia: Halopedia on NOVA Bomb yield: And if I remember correctly the NOVA Bomb is about the size of an SUV and has nine fusion warheads. That sort of shoots down any idea of the lower yields, because if the UNSC could create this and Covenant ships could be taken out by MT level warheads then why didn't they just use the resources needed to create one NOVA Bomb to spam a Covenant fleet with dozens of nukes? DS, galaxygun, sun crusher, base delta zero, baradium fission devices, eclipse and sovereign class dreadnoughts.............yawn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 3, 2010 And as I told you at SB, use the SDN calculator it accounts for relativity I do, I just found this one quicker to use is all when I'm too lazy to use the SDN one. No by all means produce a quote for ten-thousand ships, and given the conflicting nature of halo canon only an idiot really believes the high GT- TT calcs The tens of thousands of ships was just a joke, you can see Halopedia for where I got it though. Ah, so what we see at the end of Halo:CE never happened? So, the Halo just decided to self-destruct at that moment for the MC so he could kill the Flood and an entire Covenant fleet? Irrelevant when they're supposed to tank a TT MAC round or three, they should be able to tank megaton proximity explosions *Shrugs and blames Slipspace and ONI* Edit: Forgot to add this before: We also have the fact that new overrides old in the event of a contradiction in Halo canon. So the Halo Enc. being the latest source overrides all the older sources in the books. Still doesnt change the fact SW canon numbers are bigger. 600tons @ 30,000m/s, of which covenant ships only take 2-3, and archer missiles with their HE warheads are viable antiship weapons. SW most pathetic showings are overridden by movie canon, which sadly isnt the case for halo 1. My point was that you pulled a double standard there was all. 2. Ah, you mean that MAC round moving at 30 km/s that took seconds to cross 3,000 or so kilometers? 3. You mean those Archer missiles that could race after a Covenant ship going at 100 million KPH for a short time before being shot down? 4. Let me see: End of Halo:CE PoA going off and Longsword doing 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds. Halo 2, beyond visual range firing from UNSC ships as Covenant fleet entered the kill zone, which shoots down the 30 km/s MAC showing since the lowest SMAC showing would have it at 0.04C. Halo 3, the uncovering of the Ark Portal, the FUD doing 20,000 plus kilometers in about the same time as the Longsword in Halo:CE. Total High end events in the games: Five. Hm, seems to me the games do support me so far. For showings in the games that don't support me: Halo 3, three UNSC Frigates attacking the Dreadnought just before it opens the portal. End of Halo Wars: SoF can not escape without using a sling shot orbit around a star to gain a boost.But, it should be noted that they are using a Slipspace drive to destroy the mini-star, so the local physics are going to be really wonky. Total low end events that agree with low end showings in the books: Two. That's all I can think of off the top of my head in the games, I'll go over the books later. DS, galaxygun, sun crusher, base delta zero, baradium fission devices, eclipse and sovereign class dreadnoughts.............yawn Halo, Forerunner Battle Group, Slipspace drive, Glassing, High-end 1 Exaton NOVA Bomb, Forerunner Dreadnought.............yawn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InvaderSkooj 1 Posted January 3, 2010 The tens of thousands of ships was just a joke, you can see Halopedia for where I got it though. Ah, so what we see at the end of Halo:CE never happened? So, the Halo just decided to self-destruct at that moment for the MC so he could kill the Flood and an entire Covenant fleet? a 50MT bomb should leave a 3km crater, the 15MT Ivy mike device left a 2km crater, 5km is inconsistent with a teraton detonation, note the 100TT dino-killer left a 160km crater. a 5km crater is probably low GT range at best *Shrugs and blames Slipspace and ONI* Or the teratons are just propaganda 1. My point was that you pulled a double standard there was all.No I applied the weaker end to ST and the higher to SW, there was no double standard in regard to ICS 2. Ah, you mean that MAC round moving at 30 km/s that took seconds to cross 3,000 or so kilometers? Yup the same ones whose shock wave doesnt wipe out everyone on the ground in Halo 3 3. You mean those Archer missiles that could race after a Covenant ship going at 100 million KPH for a short time before being shot down? Yet hundreds are incapable causing significant harm to covenant ships while 58.5KT MAC guns destroy them in 3 shots on average 4. Let me see: End of Halo:CE PoA going off and Longsword doing 15,000-20,000 kilometers in 90 seconds. Halo 2, beyond visual range firing from UNSC ships as Covenant fleet entered the kill zone, which shoots down the 30 km/s MAC showing since the lowest SMAC showing would have it at 0.04C. Halo 3, the uncovering of the Ark Portal, the FUD doing 20,000 plus kilometers in about the same time as the Longsword in Halo:CE. Total High end events in the games: Five.Scene change in the middle of the longsword escape allows for a possible timeskip. fireball issues render the PoA destruction suspect since the halos dont appear to have 100km of atmosphere among others, fireball duration, and lack of the double flash characteristic of high yield fusion detonations being some others halo2 battle is useless without a measurable range, might only be 100km away. Not to mention technical issues due to game engine rendering the uncovering of the portal isnt indicative of any high firepower, voi is 140-150km from mombasa and depending on where the portal is in relation to the 2, a 1GT explosion in the middle of both would level residential housing on the exposed outskirts of both and caused thermal damage to exposed surfaces. A 1TT detonation would have incinerated everything in between the two, leveled everything within 260+km, leveled residential housing for almost 700km, non of which was seen in halo 2-3 as shown by MrOragahn and Monster104 on SBC halo3 has serious scaling issues so your high end in game representations are open to interpretation along with everything else Hm, seems to me the games do support me so far.And now for the low showings just from the games, Bombardment of reach as seen in halo2, MAC gun firing in H3, Assault carrier getting ganked by a small chunk of high charity,Glassing of africa as seen in H3, uncovering the portal as seen in ODST, new membossa slipspace rupture rather less destructive than Implied in H2 ODST, and of course the secondary broadside weapons from Hwars, seven low-end from the highest canon. Newest showing of the highest canon suggest lower yields or technobabble For showings in the games that don't support me: Halo 3, three UNSC Frigates attacking the Dreadnought just before it opens the portal. End of Halo Wars: SoF can not escape without using a sling shot orbit around a star to gain a boost.But, it should be noted that they are using a Slipspace drive to destroy the mini-star, so the local physics are going to be really wonky. Total low end events that agree with low end showings in the books: Two. 8 actually see above i forgot about the slingshot Halo, Forerunner Battle Group, Slipspace drive, Glassing, High-end 1 Exaton NOVA Bomb, Forerunner Dreadnought.............yawn. If your joking there isnt any point in continuing, seriously defending highend halo is laughable in the extreme, and note most your examples involve the forerunners. The majority of the canon suggest lower yields or non DET weapons Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyralak 12,068 Posted January 3, 2010 Prophet of Truth, who are you on SB? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ado Mortumee 500 Posted January 4, 2010 Sorry for the long wait again, I've just been a bit busy again. a 50MT bomb should leave a 3km crater, the 15MT Ivy mike device left a 2km crater, 5km is inconsistent with a teraton detonation, note the 100TT dino-killer left a 160km crater. a 5km crater is probably low GT range at best I know, but we also have the fact that the entire surface terrain of the ring was flattened by the blast, and that it left a five km crater in the "superdense material", meaning that the five km crater is not impossible since this isn't just earth. Or the teratons are just propaganda ...and the point of the propaganda would be what exactly? Because that would't fool anyone that knows a thing about their own tech. No I applied the weaker end to ST and the higher to SW, there was no double standard in regard to ICS It is a double standard in that you laughed at ridiculuos Halo high end yields then turned around and pulled out the more ridiculuos SW high end yields. But it isn't important so lets just drop it. Yup the same ones whose shock wave doesnt wipe out everyone on the ground in Halo 3 Hm, it is possible, though unlikely, that the portal may have been powering up as the UNSC ships fired and was already draining power. But, since I have no proof, it could go either way. Yet hundreds are incapable causing significant harm to covenant ships while 58.5KT MAC guns destroy them in 3 shots on average 1. Still the same ones that went after a ship going at 100 million KPH. 2. Still the same round that some how crossed nearly 3,000 kilometers in seconds. Scene change in the middle of the longsword escape allows for a possible timeskip. Yes, I notice that was mentioned in the thread at SB, but we still have the fact that there was only 90 seconds or so left when the Longsword took off. fireball issues render the PoA destruction suspect since the halos dont appear to have 100km of atmosphere among others, fireball duration, and lack of the double flash characteristic of high yield fusion detonations being some others 1. I don't see the problem with the atmosphere since the fireball was large enough to extend beyond it. 2. Fireball duration is perfectly in line since the atmosphere would have been blow off the ring at that section (plus the AG at that section may had been taken out by the PoA which would help). 3. On the double flash, I'll have to read up more before I can comment on it. halo2 battle is useless without a measurable range, might only be 100km away. Not to mention technical issues due to game engine rendering Problem is that they opened fire when the Covenant entered the Kill Zone of the Orbial Defense Platforms, which would be just under 100,000 kilometers out given what we see in TFoR going with low end SMAC speed of 0.04C. the uncovering of the portal isnt indicative of any high firepower, voi is 140-150km from mombasa and depending on where the portal is in relation to the 2, a 1GT explosion in the middle of both would level residential housing on the exposed outskirts of both and caused thermal damage to exposed surfaces. A 1TT detonation would have incinerated everything in between the two, leveled everything within 260+km, leveled residential housing for almost 700km, non of which was seen in halo 2-3 1. My point on the portal is it sets a low end for firepower. 2. I'm going with the 25 kilometer diameter we see ingame and what the Halo Enc. gives since I don't trust Halopedia on the 108 kilometer diameter. 3. We know the Covenant would't have caused massive damaged because, A: They didn't use Plasma Torpedos which do explode. B: The fact they thought they were uncovering the Ark and, being an extremely important Forerunner relic they don't want to damage. C: We know that they were not even using ship to ship weapons because of ODST which mention that those beams are for digging, not combat. as shown by MrOragahn and Monster104 on SBC halo3 has serious scaling issues Hm, if I recall that thread correctly the only scaling issue was with the Dreadnought and Covenant ships. so your high end in game representations are open to interpretation along with everything else I find it depends on how you look at it really. Though, what do you think of the acceleration the FUD showed at the end of H 3 since you didn't comment on that? And now for the low showings just from the games, Bombardment of reach as seen in halo2, MAC gun firing in H3, Assault carrier getting ganked by a small chunk of high charity,Glassing of africa as seen in H3, uncovering the portal as seen in ODST, new membossa slipspace rupture rather less destructive than Implied in H2 ODST, and of course the secondary broadside weapons from Hwars, seven low-end from the highest canon. Newest showing of the highest canon suggest lower yields or technobabble 1. We only saw the very start of the bombardment. Also, we have the trailer for Halo:Reach which has fireballs as I recall being calced at 50 GT. Depending on what that game gives it could give Halo at least mid-double digit GT. 2. Agree, still possible the portal my have done something to the ships though given the acceleration the FUD showed later. 3. Glassing of Africa was done by the same non-combat beams mentioned in ODST and the Elites didn't want to damaged the nearby portal or the planet since the Humans were now allies. 4. We only saw the very start of the uncovering of the portal so we can't base it completely off that and the fact they may have been doing that to avoid any damaged to the portal if they didn't know the exact depth it was at. 8 actually see above i forgot about the slingshot Well, at least it is something I can blame on Slipspace for real once. If your joking there isnt any point in continuing, seriously defending highend halo is laughable in the extreme, and note most your examples involve the forerunners. The majority of the canon suggest lower yields or non DET weapons I'm only joking on this last part of my post. On Halo high end, I just find right know that there are just a few too many showings of the higher end stuff to completely throw it out. But, when the errors in the Halo Enc. are recton and if the .4C bit is among that I'll just take what it gives. Prophet of Truth, who are you on SB? At SB I'm the ProphetofWisdom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted January 4, 2010 Or the teratons are just propaganda Newest showing of the highest canon suggest lower yields or technobabble The majority of the canon suggest lower yields Man, this is funny, since these sentences fit the SW ICS debate to a "T"... The ICS says one thing, and then movies and TCW shows another, very different thing... No I applied the weaker end to ST and the higher to SW, there was no double standard in regard to ICS I'm sure I misunderstand what you're trying to say here, because isn't this the very definition of a double standard? Using the lowest examples of one verse, and the highest of the other when comparing? What did you truly mean with that sentence? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
