How bad war going for Klingon Empire (TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise

[Questor 501]

So you are suggesting to me that Klingon Empire build massive shipyards in middle of a major war. That sounds unlikely to say the least. If the Klingon going to have to spend a decade rebuilding fleet after nearly half century of peace with UFP. Klingon did not have the able before the peace treaty to build all these ships. You are suggestion that some how Klingon during a major war with the UFP somehow how had the able to build starship at much more starship.

 

 

 

No, I'm suggesting that an aggressively expansionistic race would build shipyards during any lull in the fighting. You do realize that between the peace treaty in ST6 and the beginning of this war, 51 years pass, right? As for the rest of the comment, the vocabulary appears to be english, but the grammar is decidedly not and I have no idea what you are saying.

 

 

 

First that starship going to be middle so bloody battles it is going to lose at least few men no matter how put it. It also not going to be out for days or weeks but months no modern military ships has that few crews and is out there that long or injured to say the least.Watch this video see why rule Klingon anything better human.

 

My link

 

 

 

 

I honestly have no idea what was said in this passage. As I said above, the vocabulary is english, but the grammar isn't.

 

 

 

Also, when you introduce clips from Nemesis of all things into this discussion, you really should EXPLAIN HOW THEY ARE RELEVANT!

[Jason 27]

Something likes 53 years to be right on the ball about Kligon before Yesterday Enterprise. Klingon Empire had a problem building longer number starships even after 100 years of peace with UFP. You are suggestion the Klingon Empire in something 53 would be able to build longer starship when they did not do it in 100 years. I hate to put to but if Klingon could not do it in one hundred years peace time with UFP then they could not do it in 53 years of peace time with UFP. I fail to got logic.

 

As for thought Klingon might be able see inferred light watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbW7NCkDQDE

 

explain to me why Riker and not Wolf jump into that hole to being with. IF Kligon could see inferred light then Wolf would one jump to that hole.

[Questor 501]

Something likes 53 years to be right on the ball about Kligon before Yesterday Enterprise. Klingon Empire had a problem building longer number starships even after 100 years of peace with UFP. You are suggestion the Klingon Empire in something 53 would be able to build longer starship when they did not do it in 100 years. I hate to put to but if Klingon could not do it in one hundred years peace time with UFP then they could not do it in 53 years of peace time with UFP. I fail to got logic.

 

As for thought Klingon might be able see inferred light watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbW7NCkDQDE

 

explain to me why Riker and not Wolf jump into that hole to being with. IF Kligon could see inferred light then Wolf would one jump to that hole.

 

 

 

Ohh, I get it. You're still drawing the analogy between the DS9 war and Yesterday's Enterprise war. You don't seem to acknowledge the difference between a limited war fought at the end of a long supply line and a total war fought between two empires. I will acknowledge that the Klingons fleet in 2354 was the same size in both universes if you will acknowledge that for a war to be 20 years long, both sides need to be evenly matched.

 

 

 

As for your clip, you don't seem to understand that I was saying "different, not better." A visual spectrum more centered in the reds than ours would make Federation starships look darker to Klingons. If you want to approximate what it would look like, turn up the blue brightness on your monitor while you watch a clip.

 

 

 

You still keep bringing up minutia while ignoring the big overriding point. The war had lasted 20 years! How is that possible if the combatants were not evenly matched?

 

 

 

How much history have you studied? Is it even worth me pulling out historical analogies, or do those just go over your head?

[Jason 27]

Read this to see why I say the war that was happening during Yesterday Enterpise could not been going on for more then 7 years.My link. So the Kligon might have will had 55 years of peace before that war.

[Questor 501]

Read this to see why I say the war that was happening during Yesterday Enterpise could not been going on for more then 7 years.My link. So the Kligon might have will had 55 years of peace before that war.

 

 

 

I see nothing relevant in that passage. The war started due to the destruction of the colony that the Enterprise-C should have saved. That happened in 2344. (By the way, the Galaxy class development project began in 2343, showing that it was a project that could have been accelerated.) TNG begins in 2363. So at least a 19 year war.

 

 

 

I see you have conceded all other points. Thank you.

[Jason 27]

Another interest fact about this war the two sides could have not been fighting over more 65 light years worth of territory most likely less.Read both of these sites please My link and this other one My link. With this being put forward it very likely the UFP could afford to lose 50% of their fleet still is combat force suggestion that they could rebuild starships at very fast rate. With forty billion deaths could have not come civilians, because this is not even one percent of UFP territory. War could not have being going that will Klingon Empire or were Klingon Vor'cha-class starships. If Klingon Empire had them in our universe about at this time Klingon Empire in this universe should had them even sooner. Why did the Klingon Empire not send them in to attack USS Enterprise D? Read this if you do not believe meMy link

[Questor 501]

Another interest fact about this war the two sides could have not been fighting over more 65 light years worth of territory most likely less.Read both of these sites please My link and this other one My link. With this being put forward it very likely the UFP could afford to lose 50% of their fleet still is combat force suggestion that they could rebuild starships at very fast rate. With forty billion deaths could have not come civilians, because this is not even one percent of UFP territory. War could not have being going that will Klingon Empire or were Klingon Vor'cha-class starships. If Klingon Empire had them in our universe about at this time Klingon Empire in this universe should had them even sooner. Why did the Klingon Empire not send them in to attack USS Enterprise D? Read this if you do not believe meMy link

 

 

 

A: How many years did the british and germans spend fighting over Ypres?

 

 

 

B: What does that have to do with my point? Are you trying to combine the fights with me and enigma?

 

 

 

C: That only holds if, like the Galaxy, the Vor'cha was a prewar program.

 

 

 

D: I'm really, really, tired of your "Read this" attitude. Paraphrase and cite please. Prove you understand the material and cite it.

[enigma 521]

They used the K'Vort class battle cruisers. They are the larger version of the main timelines Bird of Prey. Therefore more powerful.

 

 

 

From Memory Alpha:

 

In an alternate timeline, the K'Vort-class was referred to as a battle cruiser, and was larger than its "prime universe" counterpart. While slower than the Galaxy-class battleships of the era, in a three-to-one confrontation, a Galaxy-class was not able to last long. (TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise")

 

 

 

You have to understand that when Picard mentioned to Guinan that the Federation was about to surrender in six months time, it wasn't common knowledge yet.

 

 

 

No matter how bad the Klingons were hurt, they were faring better than the Federation.

[enigma 521]

A: How many years did the british and germans spend fighting over Ypres?

 

 

 

B: What does that have to do with my point? Are you trying to combine the fights with me and enigma?

 

 

 

C: That only holds if, like the Galaxy, the Vor'cha was a prewar program.

 

 

 

D: I'm really, really, tired of your "Read this" attitude. Paraphrase and cite please. Prove you understand the material and cite it.

 

 

 

 

 

He still thinks that no civilians were hurt or killed.

[Jason 27]

I did not say no civilians got killed. I just think vast major of them were soldier deaths. As for it toke 19 years or maybe a little less for the Klingon Empire to take most likely less then 65 light year of territory when both sides have warp drive sounds like UFP was making the Klingon Empire pay each light years they toke in this war. Pricard first do not say anything to Guinan, but only to Caption of the USS Enterprise C. Pricard did not say the UFP was planning to surrender he said the UFP may be force surrender in 6 months. Watch this Youtube video if you do not believe me. My link

[Praeothmin 532]

I did not say no civilians got killed. I just think vast major of them were soldier deaths. As for it toke 19 years or maybe a little less for the Klingon Empire to take most likely less then 65 light year of territory when both sides have warp drive sounds like UFP was making the Klingon Empire pay each light years they toke in this war. Pricard first do not say anything to Guinan, but only to Caption of the USS Enterprise C. Pricard did not say the UFP was planning to surrender he said the UFP may be force surrender in 6 months. Watch this Youtube video if you do not believe me. My link

 

 

 

 

 

If the UFP was considering surrender, then that says a lot.

 

It indicates that it was getting its ass kicked by the Klingons, and that they were losing the war.

 

It's strongly indicationg that the Klingons were most certainly heavily entrenched into UFP space, because a losing side cannot hold back an enemy, being the effect of losing the war.

 

Civilian casualties are inevitable, even moreso when your enemy doesn't differienciate between civilians and soldiers.

 

Look at the Vietnam war: a lot of the North Vietnamese casualties were civilians, because the enemy destroyed whatever it found, be it armed forces, or civilians.

 

A lot of burned villages, a lot of civilian cuasualties...

 

In fact, there are almost 4 times as much civilian casualties are there were Vietnamese soldiers killed.

 

According to the Vietnamese government, 1,100,000 Vietnam People's Army and National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam military personnel and 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the conflict.(Technically, some of these dead were South Vietnamese members of the NLF, but it would be impossible to separate their constituency from the total.) Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 52,000 to 182,000. Although most researchers of war history puts the civilian toll closer to 4 million.

 

 

 

So if the Federation, facing an enemy who conquers anyone in their path, civilians and soldiers alike, killed over 40 Billion UFP people, then it is most likely that the majority (80%) would probably be civilians...

[Jason 27]

Klingon Empire Bird prey they are about the same sizes as the USS Enterprise D but not nearly as powerful. USS Enterprise D could out gun at least one those birds of prey may be even two them. Fact the Klingon just build bigger bird of prey that need be able to attack the USS galaxy class battleship in packs suggestions means desperation try to find ship could match it. Meaning Klingon loses were most likely much worst the UFP. I guess as much 80% of fleet maybe more.

[Praeothmin 532]

Klingon Empire Bird prey they are about the same sizes as the USS Enterprise D but not nearly as powerful. USS Enterprise D could out gun at least one those birds of prey may be even two them. Fact the Klingon just build bigger bird of prey that need be able to attack the USS galaxy class battleship in packs suggestions means desperation try to find ship could match it. Meaning Klingon loses were most likely much worst the UFP. I guess as much 80% of fleet maybe more.

 

 

 

Your argument would have merit if we even knew how many Galaxy-Class vessels the alternate UFP had.

 

If it's like the "normal" UFP, it only had 6.

 

So I don't think that they're much of a threat.

 

And again:

 

The UFP was considering surrender.

 

The war was not going well for them, when will you get that through your head???

 

 

Jason, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to stop using your wishes as reality.

 

No conqueror considers surrendering to an enemy.

 

No side winning a war talks about surrendering.

 

Is that clear?

[Jason 27]

Watch this video and explain to me why Klingon bird of prey put it self in so much risk in attacking Enterprise C if the war was going great for Klingon Empire another starship would not have made a different one way or other according to Pircard. Only answer I could come up was the Klingon Empire was afraid and the war was going much worst from them then they want to admit to. Other wise Klingon Caption would not put his ship in so much risk for nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASxLVNyzUs&feature=related

 

As for the saying UFP have only six Galaxy class starship in their fleet in main timeline. Only likely to be the case in this universe for the follow reasons following First Riker calling the USS Ambassador class starship old.This means every ship that is older then an Ambassador Class starship was destroyed some time during this long war Klingon that had destroyed a little more half of Starfleet. That leaves the UFP very few other class starship other then Galaxy, Nebula class starships.Watch this vidie if do not believe me.

 

Also one most remembers that Galaxy class starship in the main timeline had longer number science laboratory that are useless on ship design for war. Making all laboratories and making sure put into Galaxy class starship right place would be a longer part of the reason building each Galaxy class starship takes so long. USS Enterprise D that existed in Yesterday Enterprise timeline was bread for war and conflict. So one could safely say UFP would have a lot longer numbers of Galaxy class starship in Yesterday Enterprise it very likely UFP had even much more power starships.

[enigma 521]

Watch this video and explain to me why Klingon bird of prey put it self in so much risk in attacking Enterprise C if the war was going great for Klingon Empire another starship would not have made a different one way or other according to Pircard. Only answer I could come up was the Klingon Empire was afraid and the war was going much worst from them then they want to admit to. Other wise Klingon Caption would not put his ship in so much risk for nothing. url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oASxLVNyzUs&feature=related"]My link[/url].

 

As for the saying UFP have only six Galaxy class starship in their fleet in main timeline. Only likely to be the case in this universe for the follow reasons following First Riker calling the USS Ambassador class starship old.This means every ship that is older then an Ambassador Class starship was destroyed some time during this long war Klingon that had destroyed a little more half of Starfleet. That leaves the UFP very few other class starship other then Galaxy, Nebula class starships.Watch this vidie if do not believe me.

 

Also one most remembers that Galaxy class starship in the main timeline had longer number science laboratory that are useless on ship design for war. Making all laboratories and making sure put into Galaxy class starship right place would be a longer part of the reason building each Galaxy class starship takes so long. USS Enterprise D that existed in Yesterday Enterprise timeline was bread for war and conflict. So one could safely say UFP would have a lot longer numbers of Galaxy class starship in Yesterday Enterprise it very likely UFP had even much more power starships.

 

 

 

The BoPs went after the E-C BECAUSE IT WAS THE WEAKEST SHIP OF THE TWO! A hunter always goes for the weakest prey. Also in war there is always risks. Attacking enemy ships always carries the risk of you losing and dying from it.

 

 

 

Face it, the Klingons were going to win.

[Jason 27]

Also explain to me why three Klingon warships were not cloak when they came to attack USS Enterprise D and Enterprise C. Only reason I could think off was Klingon really afraid of the USS Enterprise C got upgrade. They trying to scare the USS Enterprise D away or at least got rid of both ships loser cost then if had faced them when the USS Enterprise C upgraded. You have a lot of explaining to do. The war was really not going good at all for the Klingon Empire if afraid little Ambassador Class starship take such high risk. Watch this Youtube vidie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNH300OmcKU&feature=related

[Questor 501]

Also explain to me why three Klingon warships were not cloak when they came to attack USS Enterprise D and Enterprise C. Only reason I could think off was Klingon really afraid of the USS Enterprise C got upgrade. They trying to scare the USS Enterprise D away or at least got rid of both ships loser cost then if had faced them when the USS Enterprise C upgraded. You have a lot of explaining to do. The war was really not going good at all for the Klingon Empire if afraid little Ambassador Class starship take such high risk. Watch this Youtube vidie My link

 

 

 

How about the old axiom "Don't be sneaky if you don't have to?"

 

 

 

They were going to kick the E-D's ass either way, so why waste the time and energy to cloak?

[enigma 521]

Also explain to me why three Klingon warships were not cloak when they came to attack USS Enterprise D and Enterprise C. Only reason I could think off was Klingon really afraid of the USS Enterprise C got upgrade. They trying to scare the USS Enterprise D away or at least got rid of both ships loser cost then if had faced them when the USS Enterprise C upgraded. You have a lot of explaining to do. The war was really not going good at all for the Klingon Empire if afraid little Ambassador Class starship take such high risk. Watch this Youtube vidie My link

 

 

 

They didn't cloak because they were confident that they could take on both ships. The E-C no matter what upgrade they got was still the weaker ship.

[Jason 27]

USS Enterprise D could retreat easily and out ran the Klingon ships to fight another day. Even with out the upgrade the USS Enterprise C. Also the USS Enterprise C if warp drive on line might be able to out run them will we have no way of knowing. Enterprise shields were about half the strength of USS Enterprise D shields. With the upgrade the USS Enterprise C shields would most likely been about equal to the USS Enterprise D. La Forge then presents the possibility of re-arming the Enterprise-C with modern weapons that would have allow them to out gun the four Romalon Warbirds. With this being said we can easily say that USS Enterprise C would be about equal in fire power to the USS Enterprise D if she upgraded. watch this Youtobe vidie see what I mean.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEF5cj6LsYY

[Jason 27]

Also you have to explain to me why Klingon Bird of prey aim to disable engines of the USS Enterpise C even for a short a mount of time.Watch this Youtube vidio My link

[Jason 27]

First the UFP has at least three shipyards that can build galaxy class starships. Meaning that UFP by the time Yesterday Enterprise was happening could have about three galaxy class starship a year. Guessing that it toke a year to build Galaxy class battleship. Watch this youtube video if you do not believe me.My link. I could think a number of good reason why in the main universe the UFP only had six Galaxy class starship for at least a while also building Nebula class starships it likely used same kind of shipyard to build Nebula class starships. Because they could build faster and cheaper Galaxy class starship and the UFP was not at a state of war, but rest an ensured in the Yesterday Enterprise universe they building Galaxy class starships as quickly as possible.

[Questor 501]

Where do you get a year from that video?

 

 

 

WHY WOULD THEY BUILD A FUCKED UP SHIP LIKE THE GALAXY CLASS???

 

 

 

My guess is that they build six Galaxies and then start building more Connies, Excelsiors, and Mirandas (of all sub-types) because the only Galaxy left is Enterprise.

 

 

 

Remember, early Galaxies blow up if you look at them funny. That's a bad thing in a war. In war you don't have time to debug the design, you just admit failure.

 

 

 

Not to mention that the above classes are the mainstay of the Federation fleet during DS9 (well except for the Connies, which are probably behind the scenes, as there is no reason to assume that the design is more obsolete than they Miranda.)

[Questor 501]

^ I'm gonna have to chalk that up to "as the script demands it" and "retards not thinking." I know it's not much of a debate, but it's more of a side thing and just my general frustration at stuff like this.

 

 

 

Which point? I keep get led down the side alleys while he ignores my main point.

 

 

 

BTW: Main Ppint: Why did the war last so long if the Federation is as overpowering as Jason says?

[Jason 27]

You ever heard of the Vietnam war the Klingon could carried out guerrilla war on UFP this tactic easily cost UFP longer number of starship. Three of Klingon ships we saw against the USS Enterprise D would be able to out gun her.For the UFP starships the older ships and troop carries would have been the first to go for when the Klingon ambushes them. This would easily explain why Klingon capture so little territory during 20 year war. UFP have no way of knowing how many Klingon starships they had or what their lose were thank to cloak devices.

[Airlocke 12,014]

You ever heard of the Vietnam war the Klingon could carried out guerrilla war on UFP this tactic easily cost UFP longer number of starship. Three of Klingon ships we saw against the USS Enterprise D would be able to out gun her.For the UFP starships the older ships and troop carries would have been the first to go for when the Klingon ambushes them. This would easily explain why Klingon capture so little territory during 20 year war. UFP have no way of knowing how many Klingon starships they had or what their lose were thank to cloak devices.

 

 

 

Jason, when are you going to realize that everyone here completely outclasses you, and that everything you say is instantly mocked and ignored? When are going to just give up on your idiotic arguments and go on your way? When are you going to realize that if you took the time to write with proper sentence structure, grammar, and spelling, and actually developed a logical argument, that people might take you more seriously? As it stands, you are one of the most irritating people I have encountered in the debating community. You never accept defeat, even when you have clearly been defeated; you never address 90% of the counter points that are made against you; you make no effort to improve you writing, even though it is often nearly impossible to comprehend your arguments; you even have ignored the occasional advice offered your way.

 

 

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to know when to concede a point. This one is past the point of graceful conceit. The Klingons are fucking winning the war.

 

 

 

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to make clear, logical arguments. In order to do this, we need to be able to understand what you are trying to say. Try to improve your writing, okay? If it would help at all, I might be able to find a couple of websites that could help you better understand the language. Please man, make a little effort.