Why do star wars fans think stormtrooper armor would be able to stop a phaser beam

[Jason 27]

To me it seem long shot argument t that a storm trooper armor could stop phaser beam when it not even design for that. It like saying bullet proof vest will be able to stop a knife.

[NX-01 519]

Yeah how can stormtrooper armor stop a phaser beam when it couldn't even stop an Ewok?

[Questor 501]

Just to point out, phaser beams are stopped by a number of different things.

 

 

 

One of the big things about phaser beams is their selective interactivity.

 

 

 

Given the selective interactivity of the NDF, I'd be very skeptical of phaser beams working on any new material, in STuniverse, SWuniverse, or SGuniverse (I made a funny).

[Tyralak 12,068]

This is very true. But unless we're talking about different realities altogether (ala Species 8472) We're still dealing with the same elements. If the plastic armor that Stormtroopers wear can't stop and Ewok, it would be silly to claim it could stop a phaser.

[Questor 501]

Except for the fact that phaser fire seems to have trouble with plastic/ceramic, I'd agree with you.

 

 

 

Also, where do we see the most likely ceramic stormtrooper armor fail to stop ewoks? As I recall, they bashed them on the head, and shot them with arrows into the joints.

 

 

 

The blunt impact isssue is one we know about. The real difficulty is that there is no way to cushion the inside of the skull.

 

 

 

Thirdly, since SW blasters are implied to use DET, one would assume that the armor is designed to defend primarily against energy weapons.

[Praeothmin 532]

Except for the fact that phaser fire seems to have trouble with plastic/ceramic, I'd agree with you.

 

 

 

And you got that info from???

 

First time I hear about this...

 

 

 

Also, where do we see the most likely ceramic stormtrooper armor fail to stop ewoks? As I recall, they bashed them on the head, and shot them with arrows into the joints.

 

 

 

And there's that pesky arrow that went through the Scoutrooper's backpack...

 

 

 

The blunt impact isssue is one we know about. The real difficulty is that there is no way to cushion the inside of the skull.

 

 

 

Which would explain the rock issue, but not the spear-bashing issue.

 

When your helmet, designed to cushion impact, cannot even protect you from a primitive, wooden handle of a spear, you've got a serious problem...

 

 

 

Thirdly, since SW blasters are implied to use DET, one would assume that the armor is designed to defend primarily against energy weapons.

 

 

 

And one would have to note what a shitty job it does of it too.

 

And by the way, Phasers also act in many ways as DET, so if the armor fails to protect against Blasters, there's no way it'll protect against Phasers...

[Praeothmin 532]

Except for the fact that phaser fire seems to have trouble with plastic/ceramic, I'd agree with you.

 

 

 

And you got that info from???

 

First time I hear about this...

 

 

 

Also, where do we see the most likely ceramic stormtrooper armor fail to stop ewoks? As I recall, they bashed them on the head, and shot them with arrows into the joints.

 

 

 

And there's that pesky arrow that went through the Scoutrooper's backpack...

 

 

 

The blunt impact isssue is one we know about. The real difficulty is that there is no way to cushion the inside of the skull.

 

 

 

Which would explain the rock issue, but not the spear-bashing issue.

 

When your helmet, designed to cushion impact, cannot even protect you from a primitive, wooden handle of a spear, you've got a serious problem...

 

 

 

Thirdly, since SW blasters are implied to use DET, one would assume that the armor is designed to defend primarily against energy weapons.

 

 

 

And one would have to note what a shitty job it does of it too.

 

And by the way, Phasers also act in many ways as DET, so if the armor fails to protect against Blasters, there's no way it'll protect against Phasers...

[Questor 501]

And you got that info from???

 

First time I hear about this...

 

 

 

You don't remember the dozens of times that starfleet officers/klingons/romulans/cardassians/aliens of the week take cover behind barrels or crates?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And there's that pesky arrow that went through the Scoutrooper's backpack...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well that sucks... I'll have to find that, I don't remember that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which would explain the rock issue, but not the spear-bashing issue.

 

When your helmet, designed to cushion impact, cannot even protect you from a primitive, wooden handle of a spear, you've got a serious problem...

 

 

 

 

 

 

How would it not explain the spear bashing issue? You get hit with a long enough lever arm and your brain hits the sides of the cranial cavity... there's not much you can do to prevent that while maintaing the ability for the head to move. Look at the problems the military has developing helmets that prevent TBI.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And one would have to note what a shitty job it does of it too.

 

And by the way, Phasers also act in many ways as DET, so if the armor fails to protect against Blasters, there's no way it'll protect against Phasers...

 

 

 

 

How do phasers act by DET? You can't claim DET and then throw newton out the window. All the evidence points towards phasers acting on some kind of Nuclear Disruptive Force, which emits... something... that causes hit people to get knocked backwards.

[BleuDeCiel 0]

The idea I got from reading SD.net is that blasters are far more powerful than phasers, and so to provide protection from blasters, they must be able to protect from phasers too. I'm going by memory here and I don't have time to re-read it now. Is there anyone from that site who can fill in?

 

 

 

I think this site has a pretty neat evaluation of the "protection" that the armour does, in fact, provide:

 

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

 

 

 

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[Classic_Forever 9,001]

IM GOIN EAT YOUR HOT DOG

[Questor 501]

The idea I got from reading SD.net is that blasters are far more powerful than phasers, and so to provide protection from blasters, they must be able to protect from phasers too. I'm going by memory here and I don't have time to re-read it now. Is there anyone from that site who can fill in?

 

Which is only relevant if phasers work by DET, which they demonstrably do not.

 

 

 

 

I think this site has a pretty neat evaluation of the "protection" that the armour does, in fact, provide:

 

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is Darkstar's site relevant to DET? He's evaluating impact resistance. You do know that you can optimize armor against a certain kind of attack, right? Anti-knife armor is not the same as anti-bullet armor.

[Tyralak 12,068]

How is Darkstar's site relevant to DET? He's evaluating impact resistance. You do know that you can optimize armor against a certain kind of attack, right? Anti-knife armor is not the same as anti-bullet armor.

 

 

 

See, that's exactly the point. It's highly unlikely that Stormtrooper armor is optimized against NDF weapons. Since, apparently there aren't many (if any) in SW.

[Questor 501]

See, that's exactly the point. It's highly unlikely that Stormtrooper armor is optimized against NDF weapons. Since, apparently there aren't many (if any) in SW.

 

 

 

I never said it was, I said that NDF is extremely selective, and the materials it works on seem to be very, very, plot dependent. I will grant that the NDF will work if it strikes the bodysuit under the stormtrooper armor.

 

 

 

Whether NDF works against the armor itself would depend on the tone of the episode, and would probably vary throughout the run of the show, depending on if the writers want to portray the stormtroopers as an unstoppable enemy, or as a plot device. There's never been a race/group portrayed that way.

 

 

 

[Praeothmin 532]

You don't remember the dozens of times that starfleet officers/klingons/romulans/cardassians/aliens of the week take cover behind barrels or crates?

 

 

 

And that shows us what?

 

Where is it mentioned that these packing crates were indeed made of plastic?

 

There is even one episode in TNG where Riker and Data fire at crates made of some special alloy because it will vaporize at over 2000 degrees.

 

That crate looked like plastic too, yet it wasn't...

 

 

 

How would it not explain the spear bashing issue? You get hit with a long enough lever arm and your brain hits the sides of the cranial cavity... there's not much you can do to prevent that while maintaing the ability for the head to move.

 

 

 

The problem I have with the spear bashing issue is that these hits aren't "High-velocity" hits that one would expect to hurt.

 

I play hockey, and get hit by sticks, a lot.

 

I know what a high-velocity impact feels like, and the kind of impact that actually knocks one silly when received on the head doesn't look at all like what we saw in the movies.

 

These hits were low-velocity, low kinetic enrgy hits, that should sting, yes, but they should not have stopped the Stormtroopers from retaliating, if these armors were as good as reported...

 

Conclusion, the armor is really there to protect against shrapnel, and indirect or glancing hits, in a society that hasn't used blunt weapons in ages...

 

 

 

How do phasers act by DET? You can't claim DET and then throw newton out the window. All the evidence points towards phasers acting on some kind of Nuclear Disruptive Force, which emits... something... that causes hit people to get knocked backwards.

 

 

 

You're right, it should not be called DET.

 

What we have seen Phasers do is heat rocks and other materials, vaporize alloys, "disintegrate" humanoids, and the nifty Kinetic impact it transmits to its targets (Humanoid and smaller, it rarely affects bigger targets).

 

Again, no reason to believe it cannot affect StormTrooper armor...

 

 

 

The idea I got from reading SD.net is that blasters are far more powerful than phasers, and so to provide protection from blasters, they must be able to protect from phasers too.

 

 

 

Problem is, the armor doesn't seem to protect at all against Blasters, so I doubt it would protect much against Phasers either...

 

 

 

Whether NDF works against the armor itself would depend on the tone of the episode, and would probably vary throughout the run of the show, depending on if the writers want to portray the stormtroopers as an unstoppable enemy, or as a plot device. There's never been a race/group portrayed that way.

 

 

 

Since no StormTrooper has ever been demonstrated as an unstoppable enemy, even when facing Teddy bears, we have no reason to doubt Phasers would work against it.

 

They worked against far more resistent materials and alloys in the shows, so they should work fine against the armor...

[BleuDeCiel 0]

Which is only relevant if phasers work by DET, which they demonstrably do not.

 

 

 

 

 

How is Darkstar's site relevant to DET? He's evaluating impact resistance. You do know that you can optimize armor against a certain kind of attack, right? Anti-knife armor is not the same as anti-bullet armor.

 

 

 

I didn't say it was relative to DET. You said you wanted to find where the arrow went through the backpack. It's there, you're welcome. So is the proof that the claim that their armour provides protection against vacuum is horseshit; you didn't make it, I know. My intention was to lay bare it's fragility, I succeeded.

 

 

 

Don't insult me by repeating an incredibly obvious statement; of course I know the difference, but what we see is the armour's utter inability to protect against even the weapons it is 'optimized' for. Because it's impossible to use either syllogism or experimentation to solve this problem, we must instead rely on judgement. My judgement tells me that the piss-poor performance of blaster-armour against blasters, along with everything else used against it, raises serious doubts about it's ability to defend against any weapon, including phasers.

[Questor 501]

I didn't say it was relative to DET. You said you wanted to find where the arrow went through the backpack. It's there, you're welcome. So is the proof that the claim that their armour provides protection against vacuum is horseshit; you didn't make it, I know. My intention was to lay bare it's fragility, I succeeded.

 

 

 

Don't insult me by repeating an incredibly obvious statement; of course I know the difference, but what we see is the armour's utter inability to protect against even the weapons it is 'optimized' for. Because it's impossible to use either syllogism or experimentation to solve this problem, we must instead rely on judgement. My judgement tells me that the piss-poor performance of blaster-armour against blasters, along with everything else used against it, raises serious doubts about it's ability to defend against any weapon, including phasers.

 

 

 

And I say that the similarly unreliable performance of phasers against anything other than humanoid bodies wearing clothes raises doubts about their ability to cause damage to anything.

 

 

 

I really never intended to say that Stormtrooper armor was strong, simply to say that I don't think the evidence that NDF of phasers would work against it is there. Basically, we are approaching this from opposite directions. You are looking at the admittedly strange performance of the armor and saying it doesn't stop shit. I am looking at the statistical data I have (which can be found here)* which seems to show that when phasers are used, the result depends to a large degree on the target. "The Seige" [DS9] has a lot of this, not necessarily crates though. "Blaze of Glory" is an example of packing crates.

 

 

 

* When my work schedule calms down I will consider doing a more thorough study of TNG and finishing DS9. The genesis of that statistical data was on the question of KE, rather than packing crates.

[Questor 501]

And that shows us what?

 

Where is it mentioned that these packing crates were indeed made of plastic?

 

There is even one episode in TNG where Riker and Data fire at crates made of some special alloy because it will vaporize at over 2000 degrees.

 

That crate looked like plastic too, yet it wasn't...

 

 

 

And how does this prove that the NDF works against the plastic look-alike that is stormtrooper armor. You can't argue this one way on one side and take the other side when you feel like it. Just because stormtrooper armor looks like plastic doesn't mean it is.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem I have with the spear bashing issue is that these hits aren't "High-velocity" hits that one would expect to hurt.

 

I play hockey, and get hit by sticks, a lot.

 

I know what a high-velocity impact feels like, and the kind of impact that actually knocks one silly when received on the head doesn't look at all like what we saw in the movies.

 

These hits were low-velocity, low kinetic enrgy hits, that should sting, yes, but they should not have stopped the Stormtroopers from retaliating, if these armors were as good as reported...

 

Conclusion, the armor is really there to protect against shrapnel, and indirect or glancing hits, in a society that hasn't used blunt weapons in ages...

 

 

 

I find nothing wrong with this conclusion at all. Especially as it lines up with the use of body armors in current militaries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're right, it should not be called DET.

 

What we have seen Phasers do is heat rocks and other materials, vaporize alloys, "disintegrate" humanoids, and the nifty Kinetic impact it transmits to its targets (Humanoid and smaller, it rarely affects bigger targets).

 

Again, no reason to believe it cannot affect StormTrooper armor...

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I've actually done statistics on that (reference in above post), and it is really strange. The reason I don't like to say they use KE is that there is no "equal and opposite reaction", i.e. no recoil. There is no doubt that they do something far beyond muscle contraction, but the only thing I can think of is that the phasorization process emits some kind of particle at tremendous velocities, causing the subject to move. This is why I think that phasers don't tend to move things they don't damage.

 

 

 

 

Problem is, the armor doesn't seem to protect at all against Blasters, so I doubt it would protect much against Phasers either...

 

 

 

 

Blasters seem to work via DET, which phasers don't so I don't see how blaster performance is relevant. See the above response, we are arguing two very incomplete data sets from opposite sides of the data. I would like to see a statistical analysis of blasters/stormtrooper armor similar to what I did with phasers, but do not have the time to do it myself.

 

 

 

 

Since no StormTrooper has ever been demonstrated as an unstoppable enemy, even when facing Teddy bears, we have no reason to doubt Phasers would work against it.

 

They worked against far more resistent materials and alloys in the shows, so they should work fine against the armor...

 

 

 

 

That was actually rather tongue in cheek. More of a poke at ST writers than an argument.

[Praeothmin 532]

And how does this prove that the NDF works against the plastic look-alike that is stormtrooper armor. You can't argue this one way on one side and take the other side when you feel like it. Just because stormtrooper armor looks like plastic doesn't mean it is.

 

 

 

I didn't say they were plastic, but thanks for validation that just because the crates looked like plastic, is doesn't mean they were.

 

In fact, as I stated, Data and Riker fired upon a crate made in materials that vaporized at over 2000 degrees C and did indeed vaporize some of it.

 

Are you telling me that a StormTrooper armor could resist temperatures over 2000 degrees C?

 

 

 

Yeah, I've actually done statistics on that (reference in above post), and it is really strange. The reason I don't like to say they use KE is that there is no "equal and opposite reaction", i.e. no recoil. There is no doubt that they do something far beyond muscle contraction, but the only thing I can think of is that the phasorization process emits some kind of particle at tremendous velocities, causing the subject to move. This is why I think that phasers don't tend to move things they don't damage.

 

 

 

Actually, just like Blasters, sometimes Phaser hits on walls and panels leave damage marks, and we've seen small rocks (about 20-30cm wide) exploded by Phaser hits in "Gambit, part 1" (7th season episode), so they do also affect denser materials, and they do sometimes act like DET weapons where targets are concerned...

 

But yeah, it is weird sometimes...

 

 

 

Blasters seem to work via DET, which phasers don't so I don't see how blaster performance is relevant

 

 

 

See reply above...

 

This also brings me back to your declaration:

 

Stormtrooper armor was made to protect vs Blasters, which are DET weapons.

 

Phasers are not DET weapons.

 

Ok, I agree (even though I feel the armor does a shitty job at protecting against Blasters )...

 

But since we've seen Phasers affect all sorts of materials, some dense (like rocks and metallic alloys), some less (like human bodies), we have no reason to believe they couldn't affect Stormtrooper armor.

 

The armor seems light enough, we see Stormtroopers prancing around in it like it's not there, Han flips over a Scoutrooper like he was wearing light materials, so I doubt its really dense.

 

So unless it's made from materials that defy known physics or have very exotic properties, there's no reason to believe Phasers won't affect it...

[Questor 501]

I didn't say they were plastic, but thanks for validation that just because the crates looked like plastic, is doesn't mean they were.

 

In fact, as I stated, Data and Riker fired upon a crate made in materials that vaporized at over 2000 degrees C and did indeed vaporize some of it.

 

Are you telling me that a StormTrooper armor could resist temperatures over 2000 degrees C?

 

The secondary sources seem to imply that it could, but I suspect that they would make the person inside rather uncomfortable so I tend to throw those statements out as stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, just like Blasters, sometimes Phaser hits on walls and panels leave damage marks, and we've seen small rocks (about 20-30cm wide) exploded by Phaser hits in "Gambit, part 1" (7th season episode), so they do also affect denser materials, and they do sometimes act like DET weapons where targets are concerned...

 

But yeah, it is weird sometimes...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come to think of it, as my stats on hits on objects come from DS9, so that could be where the inconsistency comes from. How about we revisit this sometime in the new year, after I redo my TNG stats? Perhaps there is a difference between the two shows?

[Praeothmin 532]

Come to think of it, as my stats on hits on objects come from DS9, so that could be where the inconsistency comes from. How about we revisit this sometime in the new year, after I redo my TNG stats? Perhaps there is a difference between the two shows?

 

 

 

Actually, even in DS9 there are some episodes where misses explode rocks, or Phaser fire leaves burn marks where it hits...

 

I guess you may have missed them in the 176 hours of episodes that were shown...

[Questor 501]

Actually, even in DS9 there are some episodes where misses explode rocks, or Phaser fire leaves burn marks where it hits...

 

I guess you may have missed them in the 176 hours of episodes that were shown...

 

 

 

Actually, I have them in my notes. And looking at the notes in more detail (Jesus Christ, I was a nerd) I have the shots in The Seige down as stun setting.

 

 

 

There's nothing that rules out a large thermal component to the beam on higher settings, in fact there are a number of places were it makes sense (especially with the wounds that glancing hits seem to leave) ref: Li Nalas. My only problem with stating categorically that phasers have a thermal component to the beam is the number of incidents where we don't see any kind of burn on bodies.

[Praeothmin 532]

Actually, I have them in my notes. And looking at the notes in more detail (Jesus Christ, I was a nerd) I have the shots in The Seige down as stun setting.

 

 

 

There's nothing that rules out a large thermal component to the beam on higher settings, in fact there are a number of places were it makes sense (especially with the wounds that glancing hits seem to leave) ref: Li Nalas. My only problem with stating categorically that phasers have a thermal component to the beam is the number of incidents where we don't see any kind of burn on bodies.

 

 

 

Oh, I have absolutely no problem in accepting that at lower settings, such as stun, the beam has no thermal component at all.

 

I'm just saying that at higher settings, Phasers have been shown to have thermal effects on materials that were very dense...

[JillianBacardi 0]

*yawn*

[enigma 521]

I'd have no problem with phasers having some impact on stormtrooper armour. Shoot at the joints or the front part of the helmet and you'll be able to take them down. Unfortunately the redshirts have either no armour or crap ass armour from the movies to protect themselves.

 

 

 

As for the Ewoks managing to pierce the scout trooper's armour, I wouldn't put much stock in it as I assume that they are lightly armoured\armed compared to your bog standard stormtrooper?

[Praeothmin 532]

I'd have no problem with phasers having some impact on stormtrooper armour. Shoot at the joints or the front part of the helmet and you'll be able to take them down. Unfortunately the redshirts have either no armour or crap ass armour from the movies to protect themselves.

 

 

 

As for the Ewoks managing to pierce the scout trooper's armour, I wouldn't put much stock in it as I assume that they are lightly armoured\armed compared to your bog standard stormtrooper?

 

 

 

What you assume has no bearing on what we are shown in the movies.

 

The armor of both seems almost identical in the material used, the difference being the Stormtrooper offers more protection all over the body, it has more plates.

 

But the plate thickness appears to be the same...

 

 

 

As for the redshirts, it is true I've always found the idea that they have no armor ridiculous, so I agree sending unarmored troups is a bit dumb.

 

Any shrapnel from glancing hits would injure the redshirts, while the Stormtrooper, and even a Scoutrooper, would have some protection...