Revisiting "Pegasus": Firepower calculations...

[Praeothmin 532]

While most Warsies always claimed that the asteroid scene in TESB showed high Firepower for the Empire (in the multi-Kiloton actually), they always claimed that "Pegasus" displayed weak firepower for the Federation.

 

A basic, though somewhat complete, analysis shows this is wrong...

 

 

 

First, in order to be able to analyze, we need to have information about the asteroid.

 

This is the information we were able to gather:

 

-Rapid scaling of the main fissure, plus the indication in the dialogue, suggests a diameter between 4km and 6km. When the Enterprise used the cloak to leave the asteroid, they had to go through 3km of rock to do it. Now, since they surely would have wanted to go through the shortest distance, and they seemed to have travel some distance in the asteroid prior to getting "locked" into it, I will assume they were in the middle, which means 3km on each side.

 

Whether they did or not doesn't matter, siince I am also using the 4km diameter as a valid measure of the asteroid;

 

-It was roughly spheric in shape;

 

-It was exhibiting strange magnetic properties;

 

-The cave the Enterprise was in, risked "caving in" if they used Phasers to get out. The asteroid was in space, so no discernable gravity should have been at play here. The only way the asteroid could collapse on itself is if it was extremelly dense, thus having it's very own gravity center (powerful enough to "pull in" fragments of itself), to the point of acting like a planetary body, almost "Neutronium-like"...

 

 

 

What was said concerning the destruction of the Asteroid in question:

 

-Riker specifically stated that it would take "most of our torpedoes" to destroy it.

 

I will assume destroy means simply fragmenting, leaving behind fragments no bigger then 10 meters in size (although this could have left the Pegasus sufficiently intact for some technology recovery).

 

I will assume that by "most", Riker is saying it would take 225 torpedoes out of the 250 the E-D carries.

 

 

 

Fragmentation of a "normal" (by normal I mean an asteroid incapable of generating a gravity field strong enough to pull in it's own fragments) 4km wide asteroid, according to Wong's calculator, is 64 Megatons.

 

For a 6km wide asteroid, it's 216 Megatons.

 

 

 

So with this simple calculation, each torpedo in the E-D's arsenal should be capable of producing between 284 Kilotons (64 Megatons divided by 225 torpedoes) and 960 Kilotons each (216 Megatons divided by 225 torpedoes).

 

 

 

These values are easily comparable to the ones in TEMB, and are obtained by ignoring a lot of important information (the "special" characteristics of the Asteroid, for one) from the episode...

 

 

 

Also notable is that the Romulans "melted" the asteroid's entry behind the E-D, a fissure of more then 600 meters wide. This happened in less then a second.

 

According to Wong's calculator still, to even melt 600 meters of the asteroid would have required 166 Megatons (for Hard Granite) to 271 Megatons (For Nickel-Iron)...

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[enigma 521]

While most Warsies always claimed that the asteroid scene in TESB showed high Firepower for the Empire (in the multi-Kiloton actually), they always claimed that "Pegasus" displayed weak firepower for the Federation.

 

A basic, though somewhat complete, analysis shows this is wrong...

 

 

 

First, in order to be able to analyze, we need to have information about the asteroid.

 

This is the information we were able to gather:

 

-Rapid scaling of the main fissure, plus the indication in the dialogue, suggests a diameter between 4km and 6km. When the Enterprise used the cloak to leave the asteroid, they had to go through 3km of rock to do it. Now, since they surely would have wanted to go through the shortest distance, and they seemed to have travel some distance in the asteroid prior to getting "locked" into it, I will assume they were in the middle, which means 3km on each side.

 

Whether they did or not doesn't matter, siince I am also using the 4km diameter as a valid measure of the asteroid;

 

-It was roughly spheric in shape;

 

-It was exhibiting strange magnetic properties;

 

-The cave the Enterprise was in, risked "caving in" if they used Phasers to get out. The asteroid was in space, so no discernable gravity should have been at play here. The only way the asteroid could collapse on itself is if it was extremelly dense, thus having it's very own gravity center (powerful enough to "pull in" fragments of itself), to the point of acting like a planetary body, almost "Neutronium-like"...

 

 

 

What was said concerning the destruction of the Asteroid in question:

 

-Riker specifically stated that it would take "most of our torpedoes" to destroy it.

 

I will assume destroy means simply fragmenting, leaving behind fragments no bigger then 10 meters in size (although this could have left the Pegasus sufficiently intact for some technology recovery).

 

I will assume that by "most", Riker is saying it would take 225 torpedoes out of the 250 the E-D carries.

 

 

 

Fragmentation of a "normal" (by normal I mean an asteroid incapable of generating a gravity field strong enough to pull in it's own fragments) 4km wide asteroid, according to Wong's calculator, is 64 Megatons.

 

For a 6km wide asteroid, it's 216 Megatons.

 

 

 

So with this simple calculation, each torpedo in the E-D's arsenal should be capable of producing between 284 Kilotons (64 Megatons divided by 225 torpedoes) and 960 Kilotons each (216 Megatons divided by 225 torpedoes).

 

 

 

These values are easily comparable to the ones in TEMB, and are obtained by ignoring a lot of important information (the "special" characteristics of the Asteroid, for one) from the episode...

 

 

 

Also notable is that the Romulans "melted" the asteroid's entry behind the E-D, a fissure of more then 600 meters wide. This happened in less then a second.

 

According to Wong's calculator still, to even melt 600 meters of the asteroid would have required 166 Megatons (for Hard Granite) to 271 Megatons (For Nickel-Iron)...

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

I'll have to look for the episode as I am only going by memory and the script.

 

 

 

What the ISDs managed to do was to practically vapourise the asteroids with their turbolasers and not with missiles or torpedoes. Whereas as far as we know from TNG and also from DS9's TDIC, destroy can mean anything from destruction resulting in large chunks of the asteroid to reducing it to fine powder. It does not take as much energy for the former compared to the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the magnetic properties of the asteroid, maybe the asteroid has a lot of iron in it and it was magnetized? Maybe it was caused by the Pegasus?

 

 

 

This episode showed inconsistencies with other episodes regarding torpedo firepower. Why would disruptors and phasers have a higher yield than the torpedoes? Nevertheless, this episode shows the photon torpedo's lower limit. As for the Romulans closing up the fissure, we do not know exactly how they did it. For all we know, they launched a bunch of torpedoes and had them all detonate at the same time.

 

 

 

Also, 216 megatons (or 903,744 terajoules) to reduce the asteroid to 10m chunks is nothing to brag about when you consider the fact that it would take about a minute (56 odd seconds) to launch 225 torpedoes (if the rate of fire was 4 torps per second). For an ISD it would take one MTL from a minimum of 2 to about 15 shots to fracture the asteroid (Read Wong's turbolaser page. MTL firepower is between 58,500TW to 465,000TW). But since the ISD has about 200 TL then that asteroid is destroyed in less one second. Actually it would have been vapourized. Plus, if you take the BDZ into account then the average firepower per TL is 2.5 million TW.

 

 

 

The fact is that the SW is highly militaristic and the technology they use gets filtered down to the point that private corporations can kick the Federation's ass. The ST universe are peace loving hippies in comparison.

 

 

 

If the Federation was more hard core military minded and less U.N. style flimsy wristed pansies then yes they could put up a fight. But the fact is that The Empire alone is enough to utterly decimate all of the ST powers with the exception of a few super beings\races.

[Praeothmin 532]

I'll have to look for the episode as I am only going by memory and the script.

 

 

 

What the ISDs managed to do was to practically vapourise the asteroids with their turbolasers and not with missiles or torpedoes. Whereas as far as we know from TNG and also from DS9's TDIC, destroy can mean anything from destruction resulting in large chunks of the asteroid to reducing it to fine powder. It does not take as much energy for the former compared to the latter.

 

 

 

If you read my post, I said that I used the "Fragmentation" definition, thus using the lowest yield possible in the calculations.

 

 

 

As for the magnetic properties of the asteroid, maybe the asteroid has a lot of iron in it and it was magnetized? Maybe it was caused by the Pegasus?

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

It still doesn't explain the collapsable nature of the asteroid's passage...

 

 

 

Nevertheless, this episode shows the photon torpedo's lower limit.

 

 

 

Agreed, this episode does indeed show a lower limit, thus the higher limit may be much higher then what is seen.

 

In enterprise, Photon torpedoes are clearly showed to be of variable yields (Archer orders them fired at 50% power), and in many ST episodes, we know the torpedoes have to be "armed" before they're fired.

 

Perhaps "arming" the torpedoes doens't just mean "shove them in the tubes before firing", in fact, since the yield is variable, it probably means "shove them in the tube while injecting sufficient M/AM for the desired yield before firing".

 

 

 

For an ISD it would take one MTL from a minimum of 2 to about 15 shots to fracture the asteroid (Read Wong's turbolaser page. MTL firepower is between 58,500TW to 465,000TW).

 

 

 

I've read it, and I have a couple of issues with it.

 

First, the scaling has always seemed wrong to me.

 

The asteroids are scaled using a 40 meter long MF, while the majority of the SFX shots show the MF to be no more then 25-30 meters long.

 

Second, the shots could have been fired by an HTL, because the angle of certain shots are too ambiguous to affirmatively say they've been fired by MTLs.

 

Some of them seem to come from the top of the ISD, and the original ICS only shows HTLs on top.

 

As for the "vaporisation", I don't intend to dispute it, because to me the asteroids have always seemed to be vaporised too...

 

And anyways, the page calculates low to medium Kilotons for these asteroids, in fact the highest number I remember from the page was about 250 Kilotons, the equivalent of the lowest value for one Photon Torpedo.

 

 

 

But since the ISD has about 200 TL then that asteroid is destroyed in less one second.

 

 

 

Are you talking about individual cannons, or batteries?

 

Even so, their ROF never showed anything more then one shot per second per battery, while the

 

E-D can fire 4 torpedoes per second (and in fact it can fire bursts of 10 torpedoes, as seen in "Encounter at Farpoint")...

 

 

 

Plus, if you take the BDZ into account then the average firepower per TL is 2.5 million TW.

 

 

 

First, allow me to remind you that I am simply disputing the "low Firepower" fallacy that was vehiculed about "Pegasus", I'm not discussing any higher showings, so the BDZ, which still has its interpretation and conclusion in doubt, doesn't belong here...

 

 

 

The fact is that the SW is highly militaristic and the technology they use gets filtered down to the point that private corporations can kick the Federation's ass. The ST universe are peace loving hippies in comparison.

 

 

 

This statement is accurate in the mentality comparison of the two universes, but only when comparing the Empire with the Federation.

 

Klingons and Romulans aren't peace loving hippies, the Borg aren't either.

 

And no, SW's private corporations could not kick the Federation's ass at all, they just don't have the ships or the Firepower...

 

 

 

But the fact is that The Empire alone is enough to utterly decimate all of the ST powers with the exception of a few super beings\races

 

 

 

Again, you go off in a tangent that has nothing to do with my post.

 

Yes, I believe the Empire would win against the Federation alone, or even the Fed, Romulan and Klingon Empire, if only because of the DS.

 

But that war would be a costly one, and would leave the Empire decimated and incapable of fighting off the rebels if it waged such a war, so it would be in its best advantage not to...

[enigma 521]

The Trade Federation could kick the Fed's ass with no trouble at all.

 

 

 

Also, if the Empire were to plan ahead and built a fleet for domination in the ST galaxy then any potential losses would trivial.

 

 

 

As for what type of TL was used, on Wong's page he says they were MTL. He's got a page dealing about TL characteristics and so forth.

 

 

 

The spec sheet mentioned batteries. Still one per sec for MTLs (more for LTL and less for HTLs of course) is still enough to vaporize the asteroid, whereas the E-D uses almost it's entire compliment of torpedoes to just fragment the asteroid. This also shows how strong the ISDs are. It has been mentioned that the ISDs are built to withstand the recoil of their own weapons.

 

 

 

As for the scaling, starwars.com stated that they went for 114 feet or about 35 meters. That would lower the MTLs firepower by a bit but still way above the Federation.

[Praeothmin 532]

The Trade Federation could kick the Fed's ass with no trouble at all.

 

 

 

If you say so...

 

 

 

Also, if the Empire were to plan ahead and built a fleet for domination in the ST galaxy then any potential losses would trivial.

 

 

 

 

Sure, if you have the Empire plan this assault, but while the Empire turns all his attention towards the Federation, it leaves the door wide open for the Rebellion...

 

But that's another discussion entirely.

 

You should start the thread...

 

 

 

As for what type of TL was used, on Wong's page he says they were MTL. He's got a page dealing about TL characteristics and so forth.

 

 

 

 

I've read that page many times, and I still don't agree with some of his conclusions.

 

Just because he says they are MTL doesn't mean it's true.

 

For example, he says this:

 

Since the ISD in pursuit would only have vaporised asteroids that were in its path, these asteroids were much closer to the Falcon than they were to the camera. The size of the Falcon is in despute, but when scaled against an ISD, it must be around 40 meters wide, and slightly longer. In these images, a 35-40 meter diameter estimate seems more appropriate.

 

 

 

Here, he scales the MF to 40+ meters long, using only 1 comparison shot, ignoring the majority of the shots showing the Falcon to be 25-30 meters long.

 

This in turn causes the asteroids' sizes to be overestimated, and so the Firepower derived from those figures is also overestimated...

 

 

 

Still one per sec for MTLs (more for LTL and less for HTLs of course) is still enough to vaporize the asteroid, whereas the E-D uses almost it's entire compliment of torpedoes to just fragment the asteroid.

 

 

 

Even if the asteroids were of the same type, their sizes are completely different.

 

You are comparing 20-40 meters asteroids to a 4000-6000 meters one...

 

 

 

It has been mentioned that the ISDs are built to withstand the recoil of their own weapons.

 

 

 

And yet, an asteroid perhaps 200 meters across obliterates the bridge of one such ship, while travelling at turtle speeds, thus impacting much, much less kinetic energy then the recoil of those supposed "Gigaton-Turbolasers"...

 

Not very convincing...

 

 

 

As for the scaling, starwars.com stated that they went for 114 feet or about 35 meters. That would lower the MTLs firepower by a bit but still way above the Federation.

 

 

 

 

I could accept it as an absolute maximum length for the MF, in view of all the other SFX shots, but that would still put the vaporized asteroids at a maximum of 30 meters in length, which lowers the Firepower quite a bit in fact, not just a little...

[enigma 521]

Some of the asteroids dwarfed the MF and they were vaped.

 

 

 

You do not get it do you? The vaping of asteroids ranging up to 100meters shows what they can do if they fired all TLs. One shot each at the same time is overkill to the 6km asteroid. Something the Feds would fail at.

[Praeothmin 532]

Some of the asteroids dwarfed the MF and they were vaped.

 

 

 

You do not get it do you? The vaping of asteroids ranging up to 100meters shows what they can do if they fired all TLs. One shot each at the same time is overkill to the 6km asteroid. Something the Feds would fail at.

 

 

 

I get what you're saying, except what you're saying hasn't been seen in any movie or TCW (and I'm not talking about the asteroids being vaped, although I don't remember seeing any 100 meter asteroid... Another bad scaling from Wong?).

 

Show me one instance where an ISD fired all its guns at the same time.

 

The problem with your assessment is that in every movie, we've never seen the level of ROF you claim for an ISD, even when it would have been useful, such as in RotJ at the Endor battle...

[Jason 27]

Make more senses one want to think Fact USS Enterprise D could withstand level a little above 12,000 means C and Fact Date said fire photon torpedo so close would with out shield could destroy USS Enterprise D I think even strong evidence back claim your clain even more so.

[enigma 521]

Even if the max size of the asteroids being vaped were 70m in diameter that is still 2.6 megatons per shot by a MTL. As for the RoF, you mentioned one per second and I just used it. In Wong's site, he uses the RoF for the MTL as one per two seconds as a conservative number but easily can be one per second. LTL's Rof is somewhere at 2-3 shots per second.

 

 

 

Why can't an ISD fire all weapons at the same time? They've got it why not use them? But since I doubt they could bear all of them at one target, most likely they can bear one broadside at a time. Still 100 TLs is still overkill.

 

 

 

You think that the ISD's RoF is the equivalent of a Spanish Galleon? Get real.

 

 

 

Overall the ISD can pump out more energy out of it's weapons than the E-D.

[Praeothmin 532]

Even if the max size of the asteroids being vaped were 70m in diameter that is still 2.6 megatons per shot by a MTL.

 

 

 

Which could just as easily have been an HTL, and 2.6 Megatons isn't a far cry above the 960 Kilotons for the 6km asteroid (since you use a 70 meter figure that I still think is exagerated, but lets keep it anyways).

 

Barely 2.7 times more powerful, so far from the "absolute advantage" claimed by Warsies...

 

 

 

Also, again, you say MTL when it could have been HTL.

 

 

 

As for the ROF, I mean 1 shot per second per battery (4 Turbolasers), not per cannon.

 

I have yet to see 100 bolts be fired at the same time from an ISD, even when it would have been useful (again, battle of Endor).

 

Even in RotS and TCW, the battles show a higher ROF, but still not 1 shot per cannon per second...

 

 

 

Sure, on a broadside an ISD has more then one Battery, but out of the, what, 25 Batteries, only 3 are HTLs according to the original ICS, and the rest are either MTLs or LTLs.

 

While the GCS can easily fire a spread of 10 Torpedoes in one shot, plus 2-3 Phaser shots within 1 second.

 

In this scenario, the ISD has the advantage, I agree.

 

What this scenario shows, though, is that using the supposedly low Firepower figures derived from Pegasus, the ISD doesn't have such a clear advantage as Warsies would lead us to believe, and shows that the higher showings in other ST episodes are not far fetched after all...