How a single Intrepid-class starship can defeat the Death Star.

[Khas 12,158]

Didn't you ever see that one episode of TNG, "Deja Q", when they move the asteroid, by making it lighter by projecting a warp field around it, while moving it with a tractor beam?

[enigma 521]

Didn't you ever see that one episode of TNG, "Deja Q", when they move the asteroid, by making it lighter by projecting a warp field around it, while moving it with a tractor beam?

 

How fast was the E-D moving?

 

EDIT: I read about the episode at Memory Alpha and no where did it mention the E-D moving the moon at impulse or in warp. They were attempting to move the moon to its correct orbit. I'm not debating that the Intrepid or the Galaxy could use a warp field to lower the asteroid's mass, I balking that they could do it and still be able to travel at either max impulse or in warp.

Edited November 18, 2012 by enigma
Fernerfly

[Khas 12,158]

Don't know. The Calamarain attacked right when they were starting, and then Q did the job for them at the end of the episode.

[Captain Seafort 17]

How fast was the E-D moving?

 

Very slowly. They expected to take seven hours to accelerate the moon by 4km/s.

[enigma 521]

Therefore we haven't seen any instance where a Federation starship could tractor a large object AND travel at high velocities. Using this tactic against the DS would end in failure.

[Khas 12,158]

Or, they could just need a long time to build up speed with that mass. They'd need to start from a distance, and start out slowly, before eventually accelerating to full impulse. So, still an unlikely tactic. Unless they got a bunch of ships to do it.

 

Also Captain, was this before or after they decided to use the warp field?

[Captain Seafort 17]

With the warp field. As for shoving the Death Star around like this, I very much doubt it, given that the moon in question is about half the size of the Ex.

[Khas 12,158]

Well, the plan never was to use the Death Star, but rather slam an asteroid the size of Phobos into the DS.

[Captain Seafort 17]

Then you're in even worse shape, given that Phobos is far larger than the Ex.

[Khas 12,158]

Yeah, looking back, this wasn't such a sound plan.

 

And it would have been ignored had Jason not resurrected it.

[Tyralak 12,068]

It doesn't have to be the size of Phobos, really. Slam any good sized chunk of metal at relativistic velocities, and you could cause some massive damage.

[Khas 12,158]

True. And as I said earlier, if it was Phobos moving at 0.8 c, the energy released would be twice that needed to destroy Earth. You wouldn't need something nearly that big to destroy the Death Star, which, is much less massive.

[enigma 521]

I guess noone has been paying attention to what I've been saying about the impracticality of using an asteroid as a bowling ball.

 

Personally I do not think that an Intrepid Class nor any Fed ship has the power to tractor an object many times its mass and fly at max impulse or warp. The ship does not have the "horsepower" nor fuel to accomplish such a task.

 

It would be like attaching a trailer with a 2 ton load to a large car. Sure at best, the car might barely be able to pull the trailer and load if you start out slow but you'll be sucking up gas like no tomorrow and you'd be putting a lot of stress on its engine. Driving at full speed is not going to happen without trashing the car.

While the Intrepid may be able to move the asteroid, it would not be able to move it at any practical speeds to destroy the DS before it turns around and blasts it in to dust.

 

I seriously doubt the practicality of using a warp bubble to greatly reduce the asteroids mass and then use it to accelerate to 0.8c unless Voyager was with them throughout the whole trip!

 

You do not get nothing for free. The asteroid is getting a free ride in the bubble but it won't get that once it is dumped into real space. That same asteroid now needs to come up with the energy needed to maintain that acceleration! Since it never moved under its own power in the bubble it definitely won't once the bubble goes away. Imagine the stresses involved in being brought into real space while still expected to move at 0.8c. Not a pretty picture. That asteroid will suffer a nasty case of whiplash.

 

Again, the Intrepid does not have the "horsepower" to go at max impulse and still be able to tractor an asteroid of that magnitude. It has never been shown on TV of a Federation starship towing a multi petaton object and be able to fly at max impulse or warp.

 

It simply isn't feasibly and to expect the DS and its fleet to just sit there as Voyager gets a hernia pulling an asteroid is laughable.

 

 

Basically, even if one managed to tow a fair sized asteroid at high velocities, the energy used to do so is much less than if it was done without mass lightening. The asteroid will not be able to continue its trip once released because of the insufficient energy used to propel it.

[enigma 521]

True. And as I said earlier, if it was Phobos moving at 0.8 c, the energy released would be twice that needed to destroy Earth. You wouldn't need something nearly that big to destroy the Death Star, which, is much less massive.

 

If one could do that with Phobos then with sufficient shielding that ship could easily toss the DS into the closest star. But then if it decided to go into hyperpace then you'd be screwed. lol

[Khas 12,158]

Uh, Phobos isn't even 20 miles wide. And it's the bigger of Mars' moons.

[Tyralak 12,068]

I seriously doubt the practicality of using a warp bubble to greatly reduce the asteroids mass and then use it to accelerate to 0.8c unless Voyager was with them throughout the whole trip!

 

You do not get nothing for free. The asteroid is getting a free ride in the bubble but it won't get that once it is dumped into real space. That same asteroid now needs to come up with the energy needed to maintain that acceleration! Since it never moved under its own power in the bubble it definitely won't once the bubble goes away. Imagine the stresses involved in being brought into real space while still expected to move at 0.8c. Not a pretty picture. That asteroid will suffer a nasty case of whiplash.

 

 

Basically, even if one managed to tow a fair sized asteroid at high velocities, the energy used to do so is much less than if it was done without mass lightening. The asteroid will not be able to continue its trip once released because of the insufficient energy used to propel it.

 

Um, you may want to give this a look.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_first_law

[enigma 521]

Uh, Phobos isn't even 20 miles wide. And it's the bigger of Mars' moons.

 

But masses more than the DS.

[enigma 521]

Um, you may want to give this a look.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion#Newton.27s_first_law

 

When dealing with ST, it doesn't always apply. We're talking about getting a massive object's mass to be greatly reduced, moving it at high velocities and still stay that way once its mass is restored. It is like running from dry land into water. You won't be moving just as fast.

[Khas 12,158]

Except it's mass hasn't been altered. It's weight has.

 

People often get mass and weight confused. Mass is how much matter there is. Weight is how much the force of gravity is acting on it. They're using the space-time distortion known as the warp field, to lessen the space-time distortion that is the moon's gravitational field. Reducing it's effective mass, by giving it the gravitational field of something much less massive, but leaving the real mass of the moon the same.

 

Really, there is NOTHING to suggest that the moon would slow down just because the warp field disappeared.

[Tyralak 12,068]

When dealing with ST, it doesn't always apply. We're talking about getting a massive object's mass to be greatly reduced, moving it at high velocities and still stay that way once its mass is restored. It is like running from dry land into water. You won't be moving just as fast.

 

Except that's EXACTLY why it wouldn't do that. You run from dry land into water, you slow down because you meet resistance. Lots of it. Space is a vacuum. There is nothing to slow the object down. Also, there isn't a single instance of a ship dropping out of warp or impulse and ripping itself apart because suddenly it weighs more.

[enigma 521]

Yet when they disengage from warp they do not remain in warp. By the way space isn't a vacuum or else Voyager wouldn't have started to disintegrate when it went was in impulse speed without deflectors in "The Year of Hell".

 

Accelerate an asteroid at high velocities and it'll start to disintegrate, however slowly.

[Khas 12,158]

But the asteroid isn't at warp. They're creating a subspace field around it, and towing it at impulse.

[Vince 520]

If it takes hours to get a moon to 4km/s, then i have to question whether they would have enough antimatter onboard to fuel such a plan... and it would take a stupendous amount of time... smaller SW vessels have multi light-day sensors, so they will detect this activity well before it takes off... considering the Federation vessel will be running hot.

[Khas 12,158]

Wow. Radar and Sonar have that range?

[Vince 520]

SW sensors are FTL, and can detect heat sources and (at least at the very close ranges) life signs... there are blind spots close to the hull that can be exploited, or turning off all power. Hoth had no trouble detecting those ISD's when they come out of hyperspace to close to the world; with sonar/radar i'd expect serious lag time. So i think TCW is using these terms to get across "sensors" to the audience and they didn't really think about it. I haven't seen the ep but what they were used for might even been beyond the capabilities of those technologies. It isn't a technical guide SW but rather a cartoon targeted at kids, after all. Sonar and radar wouldn't detect ships at FTL, or ships as they enter system in real time.

Secondary sources like Empire at War and the ICS future support very long range sensors.