enigma 521 Posted March 11, 2011 Could be, but there's also the fact that the E-E rammed something as hard as it was, while the E-D slammed into rocks and trees and packed dirt. This could also come into play... Maybe. Does it specifically say it will not do the same thing for kinetic energy? Maybe insteaf of slowly disintegrating, the armor will rapidly explode under kinetic energy? For the first part, I think the E-E rammed the Scimitar under thruster power not impulse but I may be wrong. The E-D on the other hand, crashed into the planet over the speed of sound and crashed through very large solid rocks and stayed in one piece. The second part, here are some quotes from Memory Alpha. Ablative armor is a type of protective hull plating used on starships, which possesses a capability for rapidly dissipating the energy impacts from directed energy weapon fire. The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual clarifies what ablative armor is by describing it as an armor designed to disintegrate at a controlled rate under directed energy blasts, providing an additional layer of defense for starships. Nothing about kinetic impacts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 12, 2011 Under FULL thrusters... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 12, 2011 Under FULL thrusters... Yeeeeeah....... E-D's saucer had it worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 21, 2011 Yeah, I think I'll rewatch both incidents and try to calculate each vessel's speeds, but I don't think there's such a big difference between both incidents... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted March 21, 2011 Shouldn't we also consider the fact that the Scimitar's hull is alot tougher than trees and dirt? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 21, 2011 Yeah, I think I'll rewatch both incidents and try to calculate each vessel's speeds, but I don't think there's such a big difference between both incidents... Unless thruster velocities exceed the speed of sound then yes there is a big difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 21, 2011 Shouldn't we also consider the fact that the Scimitar's hull is alot tougher than trees and dirt? The saucer also crashed through what looked like large rocky outcroppings before crashing into the ground before leveling off. Also, compare how the crew were affected between the E-D saucer crashing and the ramming of the E-E. It was a lot more violent with the saucer section than the E-E. It should prove that the saucer took a lot more of a pounding than the E-E and came out somewhat better. I still think that the E-E had "crumple zones" to deflect as much of the impact as possible to prevent structural damage to the rest of the ship. Something that the E-D lacked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khas 12,158 Posted March 21, 2011 Well, it has been a few years since I've seen the movie. Although I was OBSESSED with it in 5th grade. Why? I don't know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 21, 2011 Also, compare how the crew were affected between the E-D saucer crashing and the ramming of the E-E. It was a lot more violent with the saucer section than the E-E. It should prove that the saucer took a lot more of a pounding than the E-E and came out somewhat better. True... On the other hand, your crumple zone idea makes sense. Look at the E-D: The exterior seemed in very good shape, but the interior was wrecked. The E-E, on the other hand, had its plating sheared off while its basic structure was intact, and the interior wasn't that damaged... The more I think about it, the more I like your analogy with older cars and more modern ones... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kor_Dahar_Master 0 Posted March 21, 2011 Voyager got the FUCK kicked out of it in Year of hell and was still used in combat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 22, 2011 Voyager got the FUCK kicked out of it in Year of hell and was still used in combat. And when she crashed she was mostly unscathed, IIRC... Hhhmm... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 22, 2011 And when she crashed she was mostly unscathed, IIRC... Hhhmm... Probably because the Intrepid Class were not built to have crumple zones? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 22, 2011 Probably because the Intrepid Class were not built to have crumple zones? Could be they didn't built her with crumple zone because she is way more compact than a Sovereign-class... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted March 22, 2011 Crumple zones? Are you kidding me? Why? If you are seriously proposing that the designers of the Sovereign class wasted space, not to mention life support on crumple zones... On the off chance that somebody would ram? You want to know why the E-D saucer did so well? It's quite simple, it was designed to handle that kind of stress. It probably had special capacito-fed SIF and IDG generators, and it came in at a relatively shallow angle after bleeding most of it's velocity off. I'll do a scaling later, but I doubt it impacted at more than 150 kph, if that. Another thing that could have been used were tractor beams. Remember, as soon as it hits atmosphere, the AG should shut off, giving a power surplus, shields would cutout darn quick after reentry too, air regen should shut down around 10,000 feet, propulsion should have been dumped after the de-orbit burn (course, that's a net power loss, fusion reactors not being something you want to carry into a crash landing). The saucer should have a decent glide ratio as well. Logically, you should also be dumping as many escape pods as possible, ordinance dump, blackbox jettison, and lots of other stuff designed to aid survival. As for the ramming, velocities in space are almost impossible to judge, but simply the shape of the Scimitar is going to change the way the damage occurs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 24, 2011 I just rewatched all three crashes on youtube, and I no longer believe in cruple zones. Voyager's crash was at a relatively shallow angle, and she hit mostly snow and ice. Eyeballing it, it seemed to be doing at least it's length every second, so 355m/s, or 1 278 kph. The E-D saucer impacted at a similar angle, and while it did hit two or three rocky outcroppings, it hit mostly trees and hills of packed earth judging by visuals. It's speed seemed to be 1 saucer length per second, so around 300m/s, or 1 080 kph. As for the Big E, it impacted the Scimitar while still accelerating, and seconds before impact, travelled approximately half her saucer length in one second, about 200m/s or 720 kph. Please note it went from dead stop to 720 kph in about 10 seconds, so in the seconds between the approach and impact, it may still have impacted at higher speeds. As for the impact itself, the Big E's saucer acted as a blade, and the Scimitar's flat surface could not act as a good deflector. We've had many inferrences of these ships being more resistant than standard materials, as in Enterprise the NX navigated asteroid fields where some rocks were half her size, and she was hit many times by asteroids close to 40 meters without even a scratch, so it stands to reason the Big E and Scimitar are made from sturdier material than packed earth or packed snow and ice, which would explain the greater damage suffered by the E-E... This "analysis" was done rather quickly, so it's far from perfect, but this is what I thought after watching all three crash scenes again... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Questor 501 Posted March 24, 2011 My only argument with you is that in neither case was there any evidence of shockwaves, suggesting a maximum speed below the speed of sound. Also, the E-D at least seems to jump around. The viewscreen shots are not moving at more than 50-60 miles an hour, if that much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 24, 2011 My only argument with you is that in neither case was there any evidence of shockwaves, suggesting a maximum speed below the speed of sound. Also, the E-D at least seems to jump around. The viewscreen shots are not moving at more than 50-60 miles an hour, if that much. In Generations, (I watch with the captions on) when the saucer passes through the clouds the caption reads (sonic boom), that would mean it entered the atmosphere faster than the speed of sound. The crew could not control the saucer other than limited control in trying to level the saucer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 24, 2011 My only argument with you is that in neither case was there any evidence of shockwaves, suggesting a maximum speed below the speed of sound. Also, the E-D at least seems to jump around. The viewscreen shots are not moving at more than 50-60 miles an hour, if that much. Then we have no argument, as I said I only "eyeballed" the speeds, I have no problem accepting speeds less than 330m/s in Voyager's and the E-D's saucer example... About the E-D saucer speeds "jumping around" when looking through the viewscreen, it may depend on zoom factor or the screen, the angle of descent, or something else. The exterior shots are very consistent though... And there are inconsistencies, even in the NEM example. In NEM, when the two ships are around a km apart, that's the 200m/s speed I estimated, yet just before the impact, the E-E seems to be gowing slower. Perhaps this is an illusion caused by the Scimitar backing up... This explanation is not perfect, but it's the only logical reason I can find for this... In Generations, (I watch with the captions on) when the saucer passes through the clouds the caption reads (sonic boom), that would mean it entered the atmosphere faster than the speed of sound. The crew could not control the saucer other than limited control in trying to level the saucer. Enigma, the E-D's saucer may have entered the atmosphere going faster than sound, but the thrusters they had may have helped in slowing it down a bit... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 24, 2011 Enigma, the E-D's saucer may have entered the atmosphere going faster than sound, but the thrusters they had may have helped in slowing it down a bit... True but not as drastic as dropping from the speed of sound to 50/60 miles per hour. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 25, 2011 True but not as drastic as dropping from the speed of sound to 50/60 miles per hour. Agreed, but as I said in my reply to Questor, from the outside the speeds do not look like 50-60mph (80-105kph), they seem much faster. Only when seen from the viewcreen does it seem so slow... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 25, 2011 Agreed, but as I said in my reply to Questor, from the outside the speeds do not look like 50-60mph (80-105kph), they seem much faster. Only when seen from the viewcreen does it seem so slow... Posrep you so you'd get a nice round number of 535. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praeothmin 532 Posted March 25, 2011 Well, now you've hit 300... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enigma 521 Posted March 25, 2011 Well, now you've hit 300... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
