The Versus thread to put all STvSW debates to rest

[Gonzo 0]

<Dejectedly> Fine.... </dejectedly>

 

 

 

We'll let him respond to Questor...

[enigma 521]

Yeah, no problem (information gathered from DITL, SFJ and a few things I saw in episodes):

 

(snip)

 

While there are also a few examples with lower speeds, they are usually examples travelled at lower Warp speeds.

 

Examples of High Warp speeds and actual low c are much rarer than the high speeds shown in the examples above, making them the outliers.

 

Many reasons for high Warp speeds in Fed and adjacent territories can be inferred, just as in SW, where high speeds depend on Navigation Charts, known routes, and astronomical phenomenon. Having been scanning their territory for years using subspace telescopes will yield very complete and precise charts for Navigation in Federation territory.

 

So, again, yes, while I agree SW has the speed advantage, it is not the glaring advantage many people think, especially in Federation Territory…

 

 

 

Very laughable. If the ship can actually go as high as 31.5 MILLION TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT then they could have traveled the length of the galaxy in 28 hours. Voyager could have made it to Earth in as little as 20 hours if they kept their engines redlined or maybe a little more than a day if they stopped and recharged once they reached the 12 hour max warp limit. Then again this would not have made a good series if it was over in a day or two.

 

 

 

The thought of Trek having similar dedicated FTL lanes as those in SW is quite stupid as it was never stated that they had *Warp* lanes in which they could travel through certain areas faster than others. Trek ships have a glorified GPS system, except instead of an annoying voice telling you where to go you have the navigator making the necessary course corrections.

 

 

 

But to be blunt, having the need for dedicated FTL lanes is largely useless since SPACE IS VAST! What are the chances that you'd need to make constant adjustments so you wouldn't smack into a planet, comet or what have you? This isn't like driving downtown in which you can't just drive forward and floor it and stay that way for the whole trip. I can understand Hyperspace lanes in SW due to heavier traffic than in ST. I suppose dedicated lanes would make sense for freighters and the like so they would not get hit by faster personal starships? Other than that I really don't see the need for dedicated FTL lanes.

 

 

 

As for Voyager, I’ve said it already, many reasons explain this: low energy reserves, not wanting to tear their engine apart without knowing if and where they could repair it, always having to repair the ship after battles means you can’t keep a full repair crew on the engines, bad or incomplete stellar navigation charts (indeed, every time they obtained better charts, or improved their astrometrics lab, they shaved some time of their journeys)…

 

 

 

In VOY’s 7^th season Finale, “Endgameâ€, we learn that Voyager took 23 years, not 70, to get back home.

 

 

 

Since Kes had thrown them 9500 LY closer to home, that means they travelled 60 500 LY in 23 years, or 2 630c of average speed, and again, easily explainable with the reasons mentioned above…

 

 

 

Plus, add to that an incompetent Captain who made a bad estimate, keeps the ship travelling at a leisure pace instead of going all out to get home the quickest way possible, making multiple detours to examine strange space phenomena, and you get the reason Voyager wasn’t going as fast as she could have been…

 

 

 

It took 23 years since Endgame IF the future Janeway did not interfere meaning that they've only spent a small amount of time compared to the couple of decades or so ahead of them.

 

 

 

Voyager used many shortcuts. Kes gave them a boost but so did the Quantum Slipstream. As far as I know the QS velocity was 1,000ly per second and they stayed in the sliptream between 12 to 15 seconds before being forced to exit. That meant somewhere between 12,000 to 15,000ly boost or about 12 to 15 years shaved off. Just those two speed boosts shaved 21.5 to 24.5 years off their trip. Now during the series they must have made more shortcuts since they had to travel somewhere between 22,500ly to 25,500ly by Endgame.

 

 

 

Without any help or shortcuts or speed boosts, they would have taken 70 years at 1,000ly per year. If they could have achieved tens of millions of c even for half a day before recharging then the trip would have been a hell of a lot shorter.

[Tyralak 12,068]

The problem with that, is that in Trek, Warp speeds are anything but consistent. Just contrast the time it was supposed to take Voyager to get back to the time it took the Enterprise to reach the center of the galaxy in ST:V. One decent theory is the existence of 'Warp Highways'. The other thing you have to remember, is that it's quite dangerous for a Wars ship to travel outside of charted Hyperspace lanes. This leads me to believe that Hyperspace is quite a bit like Transwarp.

[Praeothmin 532]

Very laughable. If the ship can actually go as high as 31.5 MILLION TIMES THE SPEED OF LIGHT then they could have traveled the length of the galaxy in 28 hours. Voyager could have made it to Earth in as little as 20 hours if they kept their engines redlined or maybe a little more than a day if they stopped and recharged once they reached the 12 hour max warp limit. Then again this would not have made a good series if it was over in a day or two.

 

 

 

The thought of Trek having similar dedicated FTL lanes as those in SW is quite stupid as it was never stated that they had *Warp* lanes in which they could travel through certain areas faster than others. Trek ships have a glorified GPS system, except instead of an annoying voice telling you where to go you have the navigator making the necessary course corrections.

 

 

 

But to be blunt, having the need for dedicated FTL lanes is largely useless since SPACE IS VAST! What are the chances that you'd need to make constant adjustments so you wouldn't smack into a planet, comet or what have you? This isn't like driving downtown in which you can't just drive forward and floor it and stay that way for the whole trip. I can understand Hyperspace lanes in SW due to heavier traffic than in ST. I suppose dedicated lanes would make sense for freighters and the like so they would not get hit by faster personal starships? Other than that I really don't see the need for dedicated FTL lanes.

 

 

 

What these numbers mean is that, for a very short time, the ships in ST can go very, very fast.

 

Still slower than SW ships, but fast nonetheless.

 

These numbers are canon, so the fact you don't like them doesn't matter...

 

 

 

And I never said ST had dedicated lanes, I said it is possible in certain regions of space travel is easier and faster.

 

Plus better sensors than SW makes plotting an efficient course much easier...

 

 

 

And stopping to recharge after redlighting engines?

 

What are you smoking?

 

Push a car engine to its redlight point for 12 hours, and if it can take it, a little "time to recharge" will not help it.

 

The problem when you redline an engine isn't one of fuel, it's one of mechanical stress on engine parts beyond what it was made to take...

 

 

 

And this:

 

This isn't like driving downtown in which you can't just drive forward and floor it and stay that way for the whole trip. I can understand Hyperspace lanes in SW due to heavier traffic than in ST

 

 

 

 

Are you quidding me?

 

If space is wast in ST, it is also vast in SW, so if dedicated lanes are stupid in ST (which I agree they are), then they also are in SW...

 

Besides, I certainly don't think SW has dedicated as much as certain parts of Hyperspace being used more than others since some lanets will have more traffic between them, and between core planets and trading systems...

 

 

 

 

 

It took 23 years since Endgame IF the future Janeway did not interfere meaning that they've only spent a small amount of time compared to the couple of decades or so ahead of them.

 

 

 

Voyager used many shortcuts. Kes gave them a boost but so did the Quantum Slipstream. As far as I know the QS velocity was 1,000ly per second and they stayed in the sliptream between 12 to 15 seconds before being forced to exit. That meant somewhere between 12,000 to 15,000ly boost or about 12 to 15 years shaved off. Just those two speed boosts shaved 21.5 to 24.5 years off their trip. Now during the series they must have made more shortcuts since they had to travel somewhere between 22,500ly to 25,500ly by Endgame.

 

 

 

Without any help or shortcuts or speed boosts, they would have taken 70 years at 1,000ly per year. If they could have achieved tens of millions of c even for half a day before recharging then the trip would have been a hell of a lot shorter.

 

 

 

 

The QS shaved 300 LY off their journey, and was thought to being able to take them to Earth in 3 months.

 

If they still had 60 000 LY to cover, that would mean a 240 000c speeds.

 

Per seconds? 0.0076 LY, not 1000...

 

And in the actual episode, they travelled 300 Ly in under an hour, or 0.083 LY per second...

 

When they used it again, they shaved off 10 years of travel, or say, 10 000 LY at 1000c (the speed you like).

 

This still ignores the low energy reserves, the damge to the engines they don'T know if they can repair, bad star charts, and everytime they shaved off some time due to better routes being calculated.

 

Plus, as I mentioned but which you seemed to want to ignore, a Captain that keeps exploring, making detours to examine every scientific phenomena on their way instead of making the best speeds towards home.

 

Plus the Equinox, again, which travelled 10 000 LY in two weeks, only using a different energy source, with their same limited engines...

 

 

 

Does Voyager yield lower average speeds for ST ships outside the Federation?

 

Yes.

 

Does it invalidate all the instances in TNG and DS9 where ships travel hundreds of c on short routes or in short timeframes?

 

Nope, not at all...

[enigma 521]

Sorry if this post is a bit disjointed.

 

 

 

For Voyager, I got the impression that they were 70,000ly away from home and that it would take 70 years to get there. Sooo would that make it 1,000 ly per year? (According to Memory Alpha, by Endgame, Voy estimated that without shortcuts their journey would have been 75 years.)

 

 

 

(A blooper in Timeless unless you want to be strict with the show's dialogue but when Voyager crash landed on that ice planet at full impulse with no inertial dampeners, they should not have landed in one piece. )

 

 

 

Also when I meant "recharge" I meant shut down and "cool" off the engines and once it was safe then to do it again. If they can do that and keep redlining it then they could have made it home in no time at all. Would it matter if they ended up trashing their warp drive if it meant they could get home?

 

 

 

I concede that they can go very fast for a little while yet I still take issue that you think that SW FTL speeds are not that much advantageous. If a podunk little souped up freighter could cross the galaxy in a day without refueling or a massive battle station could cross half that distance in the same amount of time does not mean it is a lot faster than ST FTL speeds, then what does?

 

 

 

This shows that SW hyperdrives are faster and more efficient compared to ST warp drives.

 

 

 

The only form of FTL that can either match if not outright beat SW's Hyperdrive is the QS used with benamite crystals. If QS tech can be made stabilized then it'll give the Feds a leg up on the Galactic Empire.

 

 

 

As for the "dedicated lanes", if you read what I posted you'd noticed that I found it to be stupid overall. I've only said a certain use of it could've made sense but overall it was still stupid. For ST and SW. Space is vast and I meant it for both universes not just for ST.

 

 

 

I haven't ignored that Captain Crusty Ass Janeway had an attention span of an ADD on a sugar rush. Always distracted by any little shiny thing that attracted her attention. 70 years was what it would have taken them to reach home without distraction. Who knows how long it would have taken them if they did not have any of those shortcuts or speed boosts.

 

 

 

Shortcuts and speed boosts:

 

 

 

Kes shaving off 9,500ly or 9.5 years off their journey.

 

 

 

First use of QS resulted in 300ly shaved off or 4 months.

 

 

 

Second use with modified version shaved off 10 years or 10,000ly

 

 

 

2.5 years and 2500 light-years "Night"

 

 

 

The crew stole a transwarp coil from a Borg Sphere that cut 15 years (15,000ly) off Voyager's trip home. "Dark Frontier"In 2376, Voyager used a Graviton catapult constructed by an alien known as Tash to cut three years (3,000) off the journey home. The Voyager Conspiracy"

 

 

 

Q, grateful for Captain Janeway's assistance in straightening out his son's behavior, provided Janeway with a route that would take a few years off of Voyager's journey. "Q2"(?ly)

 

 

 

Transwarp Hub in Endgame cuts their trip time by 23 years or 23,000ly

 

 

 

Total time and distance shaved? 63 years or 63,000 light years. Add 7 years or 7,000 ly for the time Voyager actually spent in the Delta Quadrant and you get 70,000. Then again that doesn't take into account Q's help. I guess it would be 5 years or 5,000ly to make the numbers jive with the 75 year figure mentioned in Endgame.

 

 

 

SO, if the 75 year journey was to be done unaided then Voyager would have travelled less than 1,000ly/year. Slow indeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've got a question or a million for you Praeth, no debates or arguments just questions that need answering.

 

 

 

Check Memory Alpha's chart on Warp speeds and the average velocity in c plus distance traveled within a time frame along with the source. I'd ignore TOS since their Warp chart was different than later version unless of course Memory Alpha has already taken care of that.

 

 

 

On that chart, Voyager was able to go faster at Warp 9.9 than their maximum sustainable speed of Warp 9.975. BTW does maximum sustainable speed mean as fast as they go without redlining? If that is true then going at Warp 9.9 then they'd be able to get to Earth in 3 years not 70 to 75 years. Hell, ENT-A would have been able to do that in a little over a month at Warp 8.4.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, MA solution to the speed discrepancy is to quote from the TNG Tech Manual, but the explanation is bullshit. That is like saying you are traveling on a highway at 100kph but because the wind is blowing against you, then in one hour you actually traveled 60 kilometers. Stupid, eh? You are either traveling at 100kph or you are not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Overall I'm just saying that SW hyper speed is vastly faster than warp and that ships with hyper drives can make a trans-galactic trip without needing to slow down or refuel. Something that ST ships are unable to do unless of course you are the Borg, which I agree has the superior form of FTL with the use of their transwarp hub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All in all, Fed's ships' max speed boosts are like using nitro on a Pinto, you go very very fast but for only a short time or else you'd kill the engine against SW's Lambo's which can got a hell of a lot faster for a lot longer.

 

 

 

Plus I agree as mentioned previously that FTL lanes of any sort is stupid because space is vast and the chance if crashing into a massive cosmic body like a planet would be small.

[Praeothmin 532]

Yup, Voyager was originally 70 000 LY from home, and I'm happy that you found a list of the distance "savings" they had, 'cause I couldn't find any...

 

In "Dark Frontier", the Borg coil actually gave them 20 000LY.

 

So, from the 70 000 LY orignally, they had less than 24 700, for a total of 23 years of travel, which fits with 1000c average speed.

 

But this is at Warp 6, which is the speed Voyager usually travelled at.

 

Higher Warp is much faster...

 

 

 

Again, I agree that Voyager shows us a low average, but there are multiple reasons for this...

 

 

 

 

 

On that chart, Voyager was able to go faster at Warp 9.9 than their maximum sustainable speed of Warp 9.975. BTW does maximum sustainable speed mean as fast as they go without redlining? If that is true then going at Warp 9.9 then they'd be able to get to Earth in 3 years not 70 to 75 years. Hell, ENT-A would have been able to do that in a little over a month at Warp 8.4

 

 

 

Problem with that chart is that they mix the TNG manual chart with data from the show.

 

It is illogical for Warp 9.9 to be faster than Warp 9.975...

 

If 9.9 is 27 000c, than 9.975 should be close to, IDN, 50 000c?

 

It's tough to say because the Warp speed chart is exponential, not linear...

 

Anyway, Warp 9.975 is Voyager's maximum speed, so that would be redlining the engine like crazy, and 9.9 would probably be like going at 210 kph on a car with a maximum speed of 220...

 

Not good for the engine...

 

We know Voyager was using Warp 6 the most when travelling towards home, so I guess 1000c for Warp 6 is good.

 

The question then becomes: "Why did they not go faster?"

 

"Because Janeway's an idiot!" would be my answer, for all the reasons I gave earlier...

 

 

 

 

 

Overall I'm just saying that SW hyper speed is vastly faster than warp and that ships with hyper drives can make a trans-galactic trip without needing to slow down or refuel. Something that ST ships are unable to do unless of course you are the Borg, which I agree has the superior form of FTL with the use of their transwarp hub

 

 

 

Average speeds?

 

Maybe, the problem still is that in SW, travelling through unknown regions appears much, much slower than on "Hyper-lanes"...

 

Why that is is a mystery, but it is...

 

Yes, I agree, SW highest speeds is much faster than ST highest Warp, except for TransWarp, but the issue is, SW Hyperdrive relies heavily on astrogation and good navigation charts, unlike ST where you can go pretty fast even in unknown territory...

 

After all, Voyager did show speeds og 27 000c at Warp 9.9 in the Delta Quadrant, an unknown region...

 

 

 

But again, yes, SW has the FTL advantage, it's just that I don't agree it is the major advantage a lot of Warsies make it out to be...

 

 

 

 

 

All in all, Fed's ships' max speed boosts are like using nitro on a Pinto, you go very very fast but for only a short time or else you'd kill the engine against SW's Lambo's which can got a hell of a lot faster for a lot longer

 

 

 

Good analogy, except I would compare ST ships to an Impreza, not a Pinto...

[InvaderSkooj 1]