The Versus thread to put all STvSW debates to rest

[Sacrifyx 0]

Star Trek - hands down. Follow me.

 

 

 

1. Engines: Star Trek uses warp drive, Star Wars uses a hyperdrive, I believe? Both deliver FTL transportation. Star Wars has never gone into specifics as to exactly what speed their drives travel at, in Star Trek, starships can travel at over 1,000 times the speed of light at top speed. Because SW has, to the best of my knowledge, no canon source for obtaining such numbers, we'll call this one a draw.

 

 

 

2. Shields: Star Trek has them. They seem to be quite effective. Star Wars also has shields, but fuck if I can tell what they're used for because they don't seem to block shit.

 

 

 

3. Weapons: Star Trek has phasers. Lasers used to be the weapon of choice, but fell out of favor in the mid 23rd century due to the much higher power of PHASed Energy Rectification weapons. By the 24th, lasers, according to Picard "wouldn't even penetrate our navigation shield." Star Wars uses lasers. Lasers seem to pass right through whatever shielding they use in that universe and blow the shit out of anything underneath it, which leads one to believe that:

 

A) Star Wars weaponry would never be able to get past Star Trek shielding

 

Star Wars shielding (and the vehicles beneath it) would be obliterated quickly by Star Trek weaponry. A Star Trek starship wouldn't need to find the Death Star's exhaust port.

 

 

 

4. People: Star Wars has the Jedi/Sith, Stormtroopers, Rebels. Star Trek has the Federation, Klingons (who live for war) Jem'Hadar (bred specifically for war), Romulans (they war a lot too), Cardassians (another warlike species), not to mention the Borg along with a host of other factions. There are also those who can read minds. The Jedi and Sith are not numerous enough for their abilities to count for much except in one on one combat. The Stormtroopers are pretty much cannon fodder, but would be the best hope for any kind of sustained personal combat. Mano a mano, the differences between lasers and phasers wouldn't count for much, so it would all boil down to the best fighters, and the Stormtroopers are well known to be lacking in this department whereas there are a number of Trek races who just love to fight, in particular the Klingons are known for kicking ass.

 

 

 

The Wars universe wouldn't stand a chance in hell against the Trek universe, and that's the bottom line.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Oh, come on RayCav, you can do better than that.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Star Trek - hands down. Follow me.

 

 

 

1. Engines: Star Trek uses warp drive, Star Wars uses a hyperdrive, I believe? Both deliver FTL transportation. Star Wars has never gone into specifics as to exactly what speed their drives travel at, in Star Trek, starships can travel at over 1,000 times the speed of light at top speed. Because SW has, to the best of my knowledge, no canon source for obtaining such numbers, we'll call this one a draw.

 

 

 

2. Shields: Star Trek has them. They seem to be quite effective. Star Wars also has shields, but fuck if I can tell what they're used for because they don't seem to block shit.

 

 

 

3. Weapons: Star Trek has phasers. Lasers used to be the weapon of choice, but fell out of favor in the mid 23rd century due to the much higher power of PHASed Energy Rectification weapons. By the 24th, lasers, according to Picard "wouldn't even penetrate our navigation shield." Star Wars uses lasers. Lasers seem to pass right through whatever shielding they use in that universe and blow the shit out of anything underneath it, which leads one to believe that:

 

A) Star Wars weaponry would never be able to get past Star Trek shielding

 

Star Wars shielding (and the vehicles beneath it) would be obliterated quickly by Star Trek weaponry. A Star Trek starship wouldn't need to find the Death Star's exhaust port.

 

 

 

4. People: Star Wars has the Jedi/Sith, Stormtroopers, Rebels. Star Trek has the Federation, Klingons (who live for war) Jem'Hadar (bred specifically for war), Romulans (they war a lot too), Cardassians (another warlike species), not to mention the Borg along with a host of other factions. There are also those who can read minds. The Jedi and Sith are not numerous enough for their abilities to count for much except in one on one combat. The Stormtroopers are pretty much cannon fodder, but would be the best hope for any kind of sustained personal combat. Mano a mano, the differences between lasers and phasers wouldn't count for much, so it would all boil down to the best fighters, and the Stormtroopers are well known to be lacking in this department whereas there are a number of Trek races who just love to fight, in particular the Klingons are known for kicking ass.

 

 

 

The Wars universe wouldn't stand a chance in hell against the Trek universe, and that's the bottom line.

 

 

 

LOL. Posrep for well-intentioned stupidity.

[Airlocke 12,014]

I'll post an actual rebuttal later. Let me have this one, please. I never get the chance to make someone look stupid. Seriously, some of these arguments are 10 years or more old. AND repeatedly disproved.

[Sacrifyx 0]

I'll post an actual rebuttal later. Let me have this one, please. I never get the chance to make someone look stupid. Seriously, some of these arguments are 10 years or more old. AND repeatedly disproved.

 

Then have at it. Oh, and do show me your canon, I'll show you mine.

[Khas 12,158]

Inexperienced n00b is inexperienced.

[Questor 501]

Please tell me that this is a really bad joke.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Later tonight I'll go line by line, addressing all his points.

[Airlocke 12,014]

Looks like I've decided that I am too lazy to do it.

 

 

 

I will say, though, that the idea that ST even has comparable ftl is ridiculous. In ANH, though this could be Han exaggerating, he says that he has been from one side of the galaxy to the other and back......in a day. That would be a distance of 80000 ly. IN ONE DAY. Now, even if he was exaggerating, that is still showing faster speeds than ST, as 1000 times the speed of light is 1000 lys in a year. It would take them 80 years to accomplish Han's feat......Han is only 29. So....yeah.

[Sacrifyx 0]

Looks like I've decided that I am too lazy to do it.

 

 

 

I will say, though, that the idea that ST even has comparable ftl is ridiculous. In ANH, though this could be Han exaggerating, he says that he has been from one side of the galaxy to the other and back......in a day. That would be a distance of 80000 ly. IN ONE DAY. Now, even if he was exaggerating, that is still showing faster speeds than ST, as 1000 times the speed of light is 1000 lys in a year. It would take them 80 years to accomplish Han's feat......Han is only 29. So....yeah.

 

So engine points go to Star Wars then - I guess Star Trek would never win if they couldn't catch them then, eh?

[Ado Mortumee 500]

1. Engines: Star Trek uses warp drive, Star Wars uses a hyperdrive, I believe? Both deliver FTL transportation. Star Wars has never gone into specifics as to exactly what speed their drives travel at, in Star Trek, starships can travel at over 1,000 times the speed of light at top speed. Because SW has, to the best of my knowledge, no canon source for obtaining such numbers, we'll call this one a draw.

 

 

 

1.A: 1000C is their standard cruising speed. Pre Star Trek: Voyager () max. Warp speed is 21,000 C and can IIRC be maintained for 12 hours.

 

 

 

1.B: SW FTL low end: A couple hundred or so light years pre hour at cruising speed pre the C-canon Thrawn Trilogy books. Higher end: Tens of millions to hundreds of millions C from G canon such as the rebel fleet outside the SW galaxy during the end of TESB (object has been confirmed by Leland Chee as the SW galaxy), and then from the other movies when using stated distances between planets and size the of Star Wars galaxy (120,000LY) from C canon sources.

 

 

 

2. Shields: Star Trek has them. They seem to be quite effective. Star Wars also has shields, but fuck if I can tell what they're used for because they don't seem to block shit.

 

 

 

A.2: Ok, your clearly new at this. I need more than your opinion of “The seem to be quite effectiveâ€, what do you base this on? Can they withstand Kilotons of TNT before failing? Megatons? Gigatons? Teratons? Numbers man numbers! Your opinion on the matter means absolutely nothing to me in a Vs. debate without cold hard facts taken from the shows and movies to prove your point.

 

 

 

B. Right. So I guess C3PO and Han were worried over the shields for nothing in TESB when they said another hit would finish them off? And the captain of the Star Destroyer the Falcon hid on ordered shields raise for laughs since it wouldn't have stopped the Falcon.

 

 

 

If your talking about them getting through like in Episode I with the droids that has to do with how fast the object is moving. Go to fast they go splat like a fly on a windshield. Of course we know this doesn’t hold true for all shields since we know they had to open the docking bay ones when the Millennium Falcon was captured by the Death Star.

 

 

 

3. Weapons: Star Trek has phasers. Lasers used to be the weapon of choice, but fell out of favor in the mid 23rd century due to the much higher power of PHASed Energy Rectification weapons. By the 24th, lasers, according to Picard "wouldn't even penetrate our navigation shield." Star Wars uses lasers. Lasers seem to pass right through whatever shielding they use in that universe and blow the shit out of anything underneath it, which leads one to believe that:

 

A) Star Wars weaponry would never be able to get past Star Trek shielding

 

Star Wars shielding (and the vehicles beneath it) would be obliterated quickly by Star Trek weaponry. A Star Trek starship wouldn't need to find the Death Star's exhaust port.

 

 

 

Star Wars lasers are not he same as real world lasers. They can be seen moving at far slower speeds than the 186,000 MPS of the speed of light on screen. They can be seen in the vacuum of space from side which is impossible without dust to scatter the beam (a real laser would be invisible from the side in vacuum without a lot of dust to scatter the light from the beam). And finally there is the superlaser of the Death Star when fired: REAL LASERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! They do not just shoot out to stop in the middle of space to combine into one superduper planet-blasting ray gun.

 

 

 

And now we get to a No Limits Fallacy: “Lasers wouldn’t even penetrate our navigation shield.†Context man context! I mean this is like taking that line from Episode I about nothing being able to get through the shields of the Trade Federation control ship at face value when we know they can be penetrated like all other shields. I mean if no weapon can get through the shields of a mere converted cargo ship then shouldn’t the Trade Feds have won the Clone Wars without losing a single starship? The fact is the ship in question if I recall the episode correctly was far smaller and more primitive than the Ent-D so its lasers would have a vastly smaller output compared to the larger more advance Ent-D which could easily tank whatever was thrown at it.

 

 

 

So you are you telling me that we should take this offhand comment from Picard to mean that a laser of any magnitude will be deflected by the Navshields? Such as the one from Larvy Niven’s Ringworld books, specifically the second book Ringworld Engineers when the Ring’s meteor defense is shown to be able to completely obliterate sections of the ring’s surface the size of the Earth? Or how about the super laser of the Death Star? The one that has been calc at the higher end to be 10^38J - or only a million times less powerful than the 10^44J of a bloody Super Nova! Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, noob! So show us where Fed shields are shown as being able to tank a laser anywhere near the firepower of the Ringworld or the Death Star!

 

 

 

And are you also seriously suggesting that any normal Trek ship can defeat the Death Star? Its a 160 fricking kilometers in diameter! The best the Ent-D could do to an asteroid moon (whichever episode it was Q lost his powers in) was to shatter it - Data said the mass would remain the same and the damage would be spread out. The largest size I recall being given for the asteroid moon in question placed it at 30 odd kilometers max.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Exactly. TurboLasers aren't lasers at all. As we discussed in an earlier thread, they behave more like Hellbores.

 

 

 

"Hellbore ammunition consists of slivers of highly-pressurized frozen deuterium which, when fired, are ignited (by a laser) in a fusion reaction. The resulting bolt is contained and directed using strong magnetic fields in the breech and barrel. The resulting plasma travels at a considerable fraction of light speed and is not affected by planetary gravity. However, since the Hellbore was designed as naval armament for Concordiat warships, modifications had to be made to avoid losing a significant portion of the shot's energy to atmospheric attenuation. To this end, a fraction of a second prior to deuterium detonation, a laser is fired along the path of the bolt to create a momentary vacuum. Later Bolo marks are capable of internally manufacturing Hellbore rounds, using water as a raw material, whereby the deuterium isotope of hydrogen is separated and cooled cryogenically into splinters of frozen hydrogen."

[Praeothmin 532]

Looks like I've decided that I am too lazy to do it.

 

 

 

I will say, though, that the idea that ST even has comparable ftl is ridiculous. In ANH, though this could be Han exaggerating, he says that he has been from one side of the galaxy to the other and back......in a day. That would be a distance of 80000 ly. IN ONE DAY. Now, even if he was exaggerating, that is still showing faster speeds than ST, as 1000 times the speed of light is 1000 lys in a year. It would take them 80 years to accomplish Han's feat......Han is only 29. So....yeah.

 

 

 

Yeah... No...

 

1000c is a low average number derived from the original Voyager premise, which can be explained by a shitload of factors, like engine wear and tear, fuel, energy reserves being low, very bad star charts, etc, etc...

 

Many incidents do show much higher speeds for ST, even somoe showing speeds in the hundreds of thousands of c.

 

I do agree though, that in general, FTL advantage goes to SW, simply not the glaring advantage a lot of people like to think...

[Questor 501]

Yeah... No...

 

1000c is a low average number derived from the original Voyager premise, which can be explained by a shitload of factors, like engine wear and tear, fuel, energy reserves being low, very bad star charts, etc, etc...

 

Many incidents do show much higher speeds for ST, even somoe showing speeds in the hundreds of thousands of c.

 

I do agree though, that in general, FTL advantage goes to SW, simply not the glaring advantage a lot of people like to think...

 

 

 

What happened while I've been away? Did that bird lobotomize the lot of you?

 

 

 

I've been gone for a week and a half!

[Tyralak 12,068]

That mangy bird has been nothing but trouble.

[Praeothmin 532]

What happened while I've been away? Did that bird lobotomize the lot of you?

 

 

 

I've been gone for a week and a half!

 

 

 

What have I written that shows me as being lobotomized?

[Questor 501]

What have I written that shows me as being lobotomized?

 

 

 

 

 

Erm... That wasn't supposed to be quoted, but the idea that ST has strategic speeds anywhere in the range of 10-100000xC is insane. Even the most drastic differences between strategic and tactical speeds are generally 2x. If you are going to say that ST's burst speeds (outside certain badly written episodes that make mathematical mistakes) are higher than about 2000xC, I'm going to have to ask for multiple sources AND valid resoning on why Voyager could not achieve those speeds long enoug to bring its average speed significantly higher than 1000xC.

 

 

 

Basically (and I'm pretty sure I know the examples you'd use) I'm asking why the discrepancies exist,

 

 

 

P.S., Anyone who thinks that Leelamd Chee's statement about that being the actual SW galaxy makes sense needs his head examined.

[Praeothmin 532]

Erm... That wasn't supposed to be quoted, but the idea that ST has strategic speeds anywhere in the range of 10-100000xC is insane. Even the most drastic differences between strategic and tactical speeds are generally 2x. If you are going to say that ST's burst speeds (outside certain badly written episodes that make mathematical mistakes) are higher than about 2000xC, I'm going to have to ask for multiple sources

 

 

 

Yeah, no problem (information gathered from DITL, SFJ and a few things I saw in episodes):

 

-TOS, "Bread and Circuses": the E-Nil travels 1/16th of a parsec in less than 30 seconds equals 214 182c;

 

-TOS, "That Which Survives": the E-Nil travels 990.7 LY in less than 24 hours equals 361 606c;

 

 

 

-TOS, “Arenaâ€: The E-Nil pursues briefly an unknown ship 22.3 Parsecs pass Fed limits, or 72.7 LY in less than a few hours (several minutes of onscreen time), so let’s say 10 hours, for 7 LY/H, or 61 320c. It is flung, after the mission, 500 Parsec, or 1630 LY from the Gorn planet, and go back to their mission at Warp 2;

 

 

 

-TOS, "Obsession": the E-Nil travels 2000 LY in a round trip in less than 48 hours, or 365 000c;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-ST V: the E-A travels between 17 000 to 25 000 LY in less than 7 hours, or between 21 274 286c and 31 285 714c;

 

 

 

-ST Gen: the E-B travels between 3 LY in less than 30 minutes, or 52 560c;

 

 

 

 

 

-TNG, "Conspiracy": the E-D travels 400 LY in less than “a few daysâ€. If it’s 4 days, that’s 100 LY per day, or 36 500c;

 

 

 

-TNG, "The Chase": the E-D is expected to travel around 40 000 LY in less than “a few weeksâ€. If it’s 2 weeks, then 960 000c, but if it’s 4 weeks, then 480 000c. Although Picard, if he had gone to Indri VIII, 30 000LY away, was willing to inconvenience some squabbling delegates for “a few daysâ€;

 

 

 

- TNG, "Where Silence has Lease": While trapped in a special phenomena, the E-D is expected to travel around 1.4 Parsec, 4.564 LY, in less than a minute, or 2 398 838.4c;

 

 

 

- TNG, "Unnatural Selection": the E-D travelled 2 Parsecs, 6.52 LY, in less than 3 hours, or 11 226c;

 

 

 

- TNG, "The Wounded": the E-D estimated 10 LY in less than 22 minutes at Warp 9, or 71 673c;

 

 

 

- TNG, "New Ground": the E-D estimated 3 LY, in less than 2 hours at Warp 6.37, or 13 140c;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- DS9, "The Alternate": Odo, on a Runabout, seems to travel 6 LY in less than 1 or 2 hours with a critically wounded patient, or 26 280c to 52 560c;

 

 

 

- DS9, "Way of the Warrior": Cestus III, on the other side of the Federation (roughly 8000 LY), is eight weeks away at maximum warp [by freighter.], or 365 000c;

 

 

 

- DS9, "Valiant": Valiant travels 1.32 LY in less than 3 hours at Warp 4.7, or 3 854.4c;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- VOY, "Equinox": Equinox travels 10,000 light years in two weeks using a normal warp drive and an alternative fuel source, or 260 000c;

 

 

 

 

 

While there are also a few examples with lower speeds, they are usually examples travelled at lower Warp speeds.

 

Examples of High Warp speeds and actual low c are much rarer than the high speeds shown in the examples above, making them the outliers.

 

Many reasons for high Warp speeds in Fed and adjacent territories can be inferred, just as in SW, where high speeds depend on Navigation Charts, known routes, and astronomical phenomenon. Having been scanning their territory for years using subspace telescopes will yield very complete and precise charts for Navigation in Federation territory.

 

So, again, yes, while I agree SW has the speed advantage, it is not the glaring advantage many people think, especially in Federation Territory…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for Voyager, I’ve said it already, many reasons explain this: low energy reserves, not wanting to tear their engine apart without knowing if and where they could repair it, always having to repair the ship after battles means you can’t keep a full repair crew on the engines, bad or incomplete stellar navigation charts (indeed, every time they obtained better charts, or improved their astrometrics lab, they shaved some time of their journeys)…

 

 

 

In VOY’s 7^th season Finale, “Endgameâ€, we learn that Voyager took 23 years, not 70, to get back home.

 

 

 

Since Kes had thrown them 9500 LY closer to home, that means they travelled 60 500 LY in 23 years, or 2 630c of average speed, and again, easily explainable with the reasons mentioned above…

 

 

 

Plus, add to that an incompetent Captain who made a bad estimate, keeps the ship travelling at a leisure pace instead of going all out to get home the quickest way possible, making multiple detours to examine strange space phenomena, and you get the reason Voyager wasn’t going as fast as she could have been…

 

 

 

 

 

P.S., Anyone who thinks that Leelamd Chee's statement about that being the actual SW galaxy makes sense needs his head examined.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that doesn't fit too well with what we know of SW...

[Khas 12,158]

P.S., Anyone who thinks that Leelamd Chee's statement about that being the actual SW galaxy makes sense needs his head examined.

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed. My dad, brother, and I pretty much all agree that it's just a young star system.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

P.S., Anyone who thinks that Leelamd Chee's statement about that being the actual SW galaxy makes sense needs his head examined.

 

Completely agreed. Its silly, but he is the guy put in charge of canon.

[Sacrifyx 0]

1.A: 1000C is their standard cruising speed. Pre Star Trek: Voyager () max. Warp speed is 21,000 C and can IIRC be maintained for 12 hours.

 

 

 

1.B: SW FTL low end: A couple hundred or so light years pre hour at cruising speed pre the C-canon Thrawn Trilogy books. Higher end: Tens of millions to hundreds of millions C from G canon such as the rebel fleet outside the SW galaxy during the end of TESB (object has been confirmed by Leland Chee as the SW galaxy), and then from the other movies when using stated distances between planets and size the of Star Wars galaxy (120,000LY) from C canon sources.

 

Star Trek - in the modern series, max warp is 9.99, which is by canon sources said to be 7,912xc. Alien intervention might push it beyond that, but in the event of a battle with the Star Wars bunch, that's hardly something I'd rely on. At the max unassisted warp of 9.99, it would take 13 years to travel across the Milky Way. Just as a point of reference.

 

 

 

 

A.2: Ok, your clearly new at this. I need more than your opinion of “The seem to be quite effectiveâ€, what do you base this on? Can they withstand Kilotons of TNT before failing? Megatons? Gigatons? Teratons? Numbers man numbers! Your opinion on the matter means absolutely nothing to me in a Vs. debate without cold hard facts taken from the shows and movies to prove your point.

 

A Constitution class starship's shields were said to be able to withstand a direct hit from 90 photon torpedoes simultaneously. In TNG, a photorp explosion was equivalent to around 64 megatons. Probably more powerful than TOS torps, but so would their shields be. So let's just say that TNG-era shielding and torps are relative to TOS-era...5.76 gigatons is what the shields can manage. Voyager-era torps are much more powerful.

 

 

 

 

B. Right. So I guess C3PO and Han were worried over the shields for nothing in TESB when they said another hit would finish them off? And the captain of the Star Destroyer the Falcon hid on ordered shields raise for laughs since it wouldn't have stopped the Falcon.

 

 

Star Destroyer? Are you serious? The things that keep their shield generators flying high above the rest of the ship like a couple of fucking goose eggs? Really now, for laughs indeed. One photorp to the gennies and you can kiss your Star Destroyer's shields goodbye.

 

If your talking about them getting through like in Episode I with the droids that has to do with how fast the object is moving. Go to fast they go splat like a fly on a windshield. Of course we know this doesn’t hold true for all shields since we know they had to open the docking bay ones when the Millennium Falcon was captured by the Death Star.

Fly through? There's nothing to fly 'through'. From the hull to the outer edge, it's solid shields, not just a crunchy candy shell protecting the soft gooey caramel inside. Go too fast you'll got splat, like you said - go too slow, and maybe you'll just bounce off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Star Wars lasers are not he same as real world lasers.

 

Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. They either are or they are not, and if they are NOT, then they are not lasers. Unfortunately, they make it clear that they are using lasers, ergo, they are the same as real world lasers. I suppose we should also keep in mind that we're discussing fiction here.

 

 

 

 

They can be seen moving at far slower speeds than the 186,000 MPS of the speed of light on screen.

Maybe not, but they do tend to move fast all the same. Much faster than ST phasers and disruptors, but those aren't light-based weapons.

 

They can be seen in the vacuum of space from side which is impossible without dust to scatter the beam (a real laser would be invisible from the side in vacuum without a lot of dust to scatter the light from the beam).

 

Bullshit. You have the internet at your disposal, read up.

 

 

And finally there is the superlaser of the Death Star when fired: REAL LASERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! They do not just shoot out to stop in the middle of space to combine into one superduper planet-blasting ray gun.

 

Well...I would think if the beams were fired simultaneously to meet at a point in the middle it MIGHT be possible...but how to direct the beam so it shot at the planet instead of right back at the Death Star...seems a bit risky.

 

 

And now we get to a No Limits Fallacy: “Lasers wouldn’t even penetrate our navigation shield.†Context man context! I mean this is like taking that line from Episode I about nothing being able to get through the shields of the Trade Federation control ship at face value when we know they can be penetrated like all other shields. I mean if no weapon can get through the shields of a mere converted cargo ship then shouldn’t the Trade Feds have won the Clone Wars without losing a single starship? The fact is the ship in question if I recall the episode correctly was far smaller and more primitive than the Ent-D so its lasers would have a vastly smaller output compared to the larger more advance Ent-D which could easily tank whatever was thrown at it.

 

"Pulse lasers were used as weapons by the Lysian Central Command. Like other laser devices, pulse lasers were not considered very powerful by 24th century Federation standards. (TNG: "Conundrum")"

 

I think it makes sense that if lasers were considered to be worth a shit, more people would be using them, eh? Romulan Warbird, twice the size of a Galaxy class starship, just THINK of the size of laser you could strap on to that shit...why do you suppose they didn't?

 

 

 

 

So you are you telling me that we should take this offhand comment from Picard to mean that a laser of any magnitude will be deflected by the Navshields? Such as the one from Larvy Niven’s Ringworld books, specifically the second book Ringworld Engineers when the Ring’s meteor defense is shown to be able to completely obliterate sections of the ring’s surface the size of the Earth? Or how about the super laser of the Death Star? The one that has been calc at the higher end to be 10^38J - or only a million times less powerful than the 10^44J of a bloody Super Nova! Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, noob! So show us where Fed shields are shown as being able to tank a laser anywhere near the firepower of the Ringworld or the Death Star!

 

The Death Star is also the size of a small moon, is it not? And honestly, shooting at planets is one thing - the laser only points in one direction, and I guarantee the DS isn't going to spin fast enough to catch a ship coming up on its backside, so powerful or not, that particular weapon is useless when the DS is under attack, as the movies clearly illustrated.

 

 

And are you also seriously suggesting that any normal Trek ship can defeat the Death Star? Its a 160 fricking kilometers in diameter! The best the Ent-D could do to an asteroid moon (whichever episode it was Q lost his powers in) was to shatter it - Data said the mass would remain the same and the damage would be spread out. The largest size I recall being given for the asteroid moon in question placed it at 30 odd kilometers max.

 

 

Some things to consider:

 

1. The Death Star, while mobile, would not be able to maneuver quickly enough to outpace an attacking starship, let alone an armada.

 

2. Assuming the exhaust port is the ONLY weak spot...Star Trek VI made it clear that a photorp only needs a minor adjustment to be able to home in on such a thing. Photorps also have their own shields, so the turrets guarding the trench leading to the port would be ineffective at stopping it.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

A Constitution class starship's shields were said to be able to withstand a direct hit from 90 photon torpedoes simultaneously. In TNG, a photorp explosion was equivalent to around 64 megatons. Probably more powerful than TOS torps, but so would their shields be. So let's just say that TNG-era shielding and torps are relative to TOS-era...5.76 gigatons is what the shields can manage. Voyager-era torps are much more powerful.

 

*Gives Consul Sacrifyx a giant cookie* Good, you ar learning. You have to remember to back up claims with evidence when ever possible. At the very least a reference to the episode in question is needed otherwise you might get torn apart and devoured by others.

 

 

 

Good thing I know about that TOS epsiode you are talking about otherwise I would have to lock you in a room with Jason.

 

 

 

Star Destroyer? Are you serious? The things that keep their shield generators flying high above the rest of the ship like a couple of fucking goose eggs? Really now, for laughs indeed. One photorp to the gennies and you can kiss your Star Destroyer's shields goodbye.

 

The event in case also had the entire rebel fleet concentrating all firepower on the Executor. If the generators on any old Star Destroyer are that vulnerable when shields are still up why don’t we see this advantages exploited else where?

 

 

 

Fly through? There's nothing to fly 'through'. From the hull to the outer edge, it's solid shields, not just a crunchy candy shell protecting the soft gooey caramel inside. Go too fast you'll got splat, like you said - go too slow, and maybe you'll just bounce off.

 

The ANH novel states that they flew through the Death Star’s shields. How else do you explain them getting through them when we know the DS has them? Besides we've seen that shields can be pasted through by slow moving objects but not fast moving in TPM - Tanks fire their main guns but don't go through the shields, Droids are able to go through them.

 

 

 

Take Mass Effect as an example: Shields only react to an object moving at X speed, this can be adjusted by the user to the point where if they attempt to sit down the chair is sent flying away.

 

 

 

Light Amplified by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. They either are or they are not, and if they are NOT, then they are not lasers. Unfortunately, they make it clear that they are using lasers, ergo, they are the same as real world lasers. I suppose we should also keep in mind that we're discussing fiction here.

 

And how exactly have they made it clear they are lasers? They act nothing like lasers - is a Photon torpedo a weapon used in water becuase it is called a torpedo? Is the barrel of a phaser rifle or blaster rifle rifled like a modern day weapons? Just because they call it a Laser means nothing, all that matters is how it acts - and what Star Wars calls a laser is nothing like a real life laser.

 

 

 

Maybe not, but they do tend to move fast all the same. Much faster than ST phasers and disruptors, but those aren't light-based weapons.

 

Phasers can hit a target at around 300,000 kilometers in a single second or thereabouts. SW laser bolts can be seen moving along at several dozen kilometers per second on screen at the highest IIRC.

 

 

 

Bullshit. You have the internet at your disposal, read up.

 

You cannot see a beam of light from the side unless it is sufficiently scattered by dust. Say I take a laser and shoot it across the room, it is invisible to you unless I give it some dust so that the light scatters into different directions (some of which becomes oriented to your eye), or that I shoot the laser directly into your eye. That is why when people use a laser pointer, you don't see a beam of light like a Lightsaber, but you see the dot when it hits the wall.

 

 

 

Well...I would think if the beams were fired simultaneously to meet at a point in the middle it MIGHT be possible...but how to direct the beam so it shot at the planet instead of right back at the Death Star...seems a bit risky.

 

Nope, if the Death Star's tributary lasers were real lasers they would just shoot right through each other. On the other hand a plasma based weapon can do what we see with magnetic fields. Strangely enough the displayed properties of Star Wars lasers all point to them being sub-light speed plasma/particle weapons

 

 

 

The only thing they have in common with a real world laser is the name. Nothing else. Everything we see about them on screen when their fired proves their not lasers.

 

 

 

"Pulse lasers were used as weapons by the Lysian Central Command. Like other laser devices, pulse lasers were not considered very powerful by 24th century Federation standards. (TNG: "Conundrum")"

 

I think it makes sense that if lasers were considered to be worth a shit, more people would be using them, eh? Romulan Warbird, twice the size of a Galaxy class starship, just THINK of the size of laser you could strap on to that shit...why do you suppose they didn't?

 

Don’t dodge the point. You said:

 

 

 

3. Weapons: Star Trek has phasers. Lasers used to be the weapon of choice, but fell out of favor in the mid 23rd century due to the much higher power of PHASed Energy Rectification weapons. By the 24th, lasers, according to Picard "wouldn't even penetrate our navigation shield." Star Wars uses lasers. Lasers seem to pass right through whatever shielding they use in that universe and blow the shit out of anything underneath it, which leads one to believe that:

 

A) Star Wars weaponry would never be able to get past Star Trek shielding

 

Star Wars shielding (and the vehicles beneath it) would be obliterated quickly by Star Trek weaponry. A Star Trek starship wouldn't need to find the Death Star's exhaust port.

 

 

 

You claimed that their weapons would not be able to get through because their lasers, which means nothing. What matters is how powerful the weapon is on impact, so say we use ICS numbers that give a single Mk. II Imperial Star Destroyer an output of 2.2 Petatons per second that can all be put through its weapons and assume they use real lasers; do you still claim they can withstand that level of firepower? Just because Phasers are superior to lasers in Star Trek means nothing, and SW weapons are clearly not lasers unless we completely ignore all onscreen evidence and go strictly by the name.

 

 

 

The Death Star is also the size of a small moon, is it not? And honestly, shooting at planets is one thing - the laser only points in one direction, and I guarantee the DS isn't going to spin fast enough to catch a ship coming up on its backside, so powerful or not, that particular weapon is useless when the DS is under attack, as the movies clearly illustrated.

 

Dodging the point again. Do you believe that Federation Navshields can withstand the level of firepower from either the Ringworld meteor or the Death Star superlaser simpley because Picard claimed the lasers being used on a more primitive ship can not get through the Navshields? And last I checked it was only useless against ships less than 20 meters long given we know from the novel Death Star the first one blew a rebel carrier up with its superlaser and we see the second Death Star picking off rebel ships with its superlaser.

 

 

 

The drawback of the first Death Star was it needed 24 hours to recharge before it could fire at full power again.

 

 

 

Some things to consider:

 

1. The Death Star, while mobile, would not be able to maneuver quickly enough to outpace an attacking starship, let alone an armada.

 

2. Assuming the exhaust port is the ONLY weak spot...Star Trek VI made it clear that a photorp only needs a minor adjustment to be able to home in on such a thing. Photorps also have their own shields, so the turrets guarding the trench leading to the port would be ineffective at stopping it.

 

1. Good, plenty of target practice for the thousands of surface size Turbolasers, though it well take sometime to take out the Fed ships' shields.

 

2. And is there a reason to assume that there are other weak points? And how exactly do they know of the exhaust port to target it - assuming they survive long enough that they can get a lock through the massive amount of ECM (ANH novel and IIRC the movie too) and that the Photorps are small enough to fit through the 2 meter wide port.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and did you get your neural chip implanted in your skull on the way in to ASVS Inc.? Ah, good.

 

 

 

Remember Sacrifyx, the moment you try to secede I’m going to grab some soda and popcorn, turn on my n00bvison monitor, and flick the switch that makes your head explode a la Running Man.

[Questor 501]

Jesus, I haven't see this much deluded, ignorant text since Darkstar was banned from SDN.

 

 

 

First, have you done any research on this board, or have you read through the asvs archives on google?

 

 

 

Since the answer is obviously no, I suggest you do so. There is a reason why it is suggested that people lurk before they post.

 

 

 

Second, please at least finish a junior high level science course before attempting to make assumptions about physics. The comments about lasers make you look like an unlettered idiot.

 

 

 

Debates - especially weapons debates - can get quite math heavy. The physics involved in anything to do with analyzing weapons yields are also quite heavy.

 

 

 

Thirdly, you appear to be including the ST techinical manuals in your "version" of canon. That is not the best idea, simply because of the numerous low end sources I could pull from it, but it is also in direct contravention of CBS's stated canon policy.

 

 

 

Fourthly, You have made a number of claims, it is your responsibility to provide evidence for these claims.

 

 

 

This is said as a moderator:

 

YOU WILL PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF PHOTON TORPEDO YIELD, FROM ACCEPTED CANON SOURCES, ALONG WITH ERROR BARS AND AN EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU FEEL THAT YOUR NUMBERS ARE THE BEST FIT.

 

 

 

YOU WILL PROVIDE A MECHANISM WHERE LASERS WOULD BE VISIBLE FROM THE SIDE AT THE INTENSITIES OBSERVED IN STAR WARS ABSENT AN ATMOSPHERE.

 

 

 

YOU WILL PROVIDE A MECHANISM FOR LASERS TO PROPOGATE AT LESS THAN THE LOCAL SPEED OF LIGHT. A COPY OF YOUR NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS FOR DISCOVERING SAID MECHANISM WILL DO IF THIS IS YOUR OWN WORK.

 

 

 

YOU WILL PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT STAR WARS SHIELDS DO NOT HAVE SELECTIVE PERMIABILITY TO BOTH PHYSICAL OBJECTS AND THE ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRUM.

[Gonzo 0]

As the Board Dictator I order that Consul Sacrifyx be sacrificed!

 

 

 

He shall be brought before my throne (Tyralak's stuffed head) and flayed and then fed his own, still living, intestines!

 

 

 

Then he shall be defenestrated!

 

 

 

Any who oppose my dominion shall be treated so!

[Khas 12,158]

Let's give the newbie some time to learn from his mistakes. If he doesn't than we'll go through with your idea.