24th century firepower based on TDiC

[Tyralak 12,068]

Since there is no serious doubt of the canonicity of TDiC, I think it's time to discuss 24th century firepower based on this episode. Possibly later today when I get time I will post the infamous scene so it can be appropriately nitpicked.

[Praeothmin 532]

Too bad SDA doesn't seem to be here anymore, we would've had some serious opposition, which would have started strong, intelligent debate on the subject...

 

Oh wait...

[Tyralak 12,068]

Too bad SDA doesn't seem to be here anymore, we would've had some serious opposition, which would have started strong, intelligent debate on the subject...

 

Oh wait...

 

 

 

Hmmmmm.... yeah, I think I'll pass on his "input". I wonder where he went, anyway? Maybe I shouldn't ask.

[Tyralak 12,068]

As promised, here it is:

 

[Darth Chimera 0]

Look, Tyralak. I know you want to believe this, but you're just plain wrong. I'm sorry but we just don't see the kind of damage that the Romulans are claiming. We see a bunch of ripples and atmospheric disturbances. That's all. The visuals don't even show the 1/3 of the planet's crust affected like she's claiming it is.

[enigma 521]

Look, Tyralak. I know you want to believe this, but you're just plain wrong. I'm sorry but we just don't see the kind of damage that the Romulans are claiming. We see a bunch of ripples and atmospheric disturbances. That's all. The visuals don't even show the 1/3 of the planet's crust affected like she's claiming it is.

 

 

 

If their claim was accurate then we'd see a hell of a lot more than rippling of the clouds. Look at all the shots made. E-D(or even E-E) could survive that. Plain and simple, they were fooled into thinking that they had done anything. E-D alone needed to adjust the phasers so they could drill into a planet's crust. If the firepower was that good then a few unadjusted shots would have worked.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Look, Tyralak. I know you want to believe this, but you're just plain wrong. I'm sorry but we just don't see the kind of damage that the Romulans are claiming. We see a bunch of ripples and atmospheric disturbances. That's all. The visuals don't even show the 1/3 of the planet's crust affected like she's claiming it is.

 

 

 

Are you really that blind? Take a look at these two frames:

 

 

 

This one shows more than atmospheric disturbances. It shows small continent sized mushroom clouds. Also pay special attention to the different types of the four that I marked.

 

 

 

 

Now, look at a few frames before:

 

See the different types of weapons fire? The two largest explosions appear to be caused by torpedoes, which is consistent with what we would expect. This also proves it's more than just "atmospheric disturbances".

 

 

 

 

Also as far as your other claim goes; we don't see 1/3 of the planetary crust destroyed BECAUSE WE DON'T SEE THE WHOLE PLANET! We see a small section shown on the viewscreen.

[Tyralak 12,068]

If their claim was accurate then we'd see a hell of a lot more than rippling of the clouds. Look at all the shots made. E-D(or even E-E) could survive that. Plain and simple, they were fooled into thinking that they had done anything. E-D alone needed to adjust the phasers so they could drill into a planet's crust. If the firepower was that good then a few unadjusted shots would have worked.

 

 

 

I've already debunked that argument. It frankly doesn't pass the test of logic. They ought to very well know the capabilities of their own weaponry. They were expecting the kind of damage they were shown. Also listen carefully to the dialogue. The false sensor readings were ONLY in relation to the life sign readings NOT the physical damage. Allow me to quote myself:

 

 

 

Warsie myth # 2: "The Founders were broadcasting false sensor readings, and this shows the sensors data to be unreliable."

 

 

 

The facts: The false sensor data was ONLY in reference to life signs. Not to damage of the planet's surface. The false readings were to trick the Romulans and Cardassians into believing that the Founders were still on the planet. Once the Romulans discovered the ruse, there was no

 

indication that the damage readings were also erroneous. We also have the inconvenient fact that the Romulans and Cardassians expected that kind of damage. That's the goal they were aiming for. When the damage reports came back, nobody was surprised. If this type of damage was

 

outside the realm of possibility, the Romluans would have been tipped off immediately. If the Founders were broadcasting false damage readings, they would have been foolish to send out readings that were so far out of the realm of possibility. An example. A fighter aircraft fired a single missile at a target, say a small building, and the enemy had a way of sending back false damage pictures to surveillance satellites. The false imagery showed half the city destroyed by that

 

missile. Does anyone really think the side that fired the missile would pat themselves on the back and say "Good job! That missile took out half the city!" when the missile only had the capability of destroying a small building?

[enigma 521]

It wouldn't matter. The amount of firepower shown is insufficient to cause that amount of damage. Unless of course the planet was made up of Kleenex. As I mentioned before, the E-D(E) could withstand the firepower shown onscreen. Again explain to me why in an TNG ep that the E-D had to spend time configuring the phasers to drill into the planet's core if they could have easily done that by firing phasers unadjusted? The combined firepower thrown around in that scene in TDIC is what? low gigaton level? That isn't enough to wreck one third of the planet.

 

 

 

Also your missile analogy is wrong. It is more like the fighter launches a missile into a densely clouded city then sees swirly patterns in the clouds and deduces that it must have destroyed one third of the city when in realty it did a whole lot less.

 

 

 

It isn't like they've concentrated their attacks into one small area. It was all over the place. Each shot would not have punctured the planet's crust and cause massive damage unless again that said planet was made out of tissue paper. They were trying to kill off the Founders but instead were tricked themselves.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

 

Last i checked mushroom clouds looked like this

 

 

 

 

 

 

And they come from large bright fireballs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guess what TDiC doesnt have?

[Praeothmin 532]

Last i checked mushroom clouds looked like this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And they come from large bright fireballs

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guess what TDiC doesnt have?

 

 

 

And what would those mushroom clouds look like from far above, in orbit, like, say, from the firing ships' positions?

 

 

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, the E-D(E) could withstand the firepower shown onscreen. Again explain to me why in an TNG ep that the E-D had to spend time configuring the phasers to drill into the planet's core if they could have easily done that by firing phasers unadjusted?

 

 

 

 

Actually Enigma, they had to adjust the Phasers because they wanted a fine control over them, and a variance of 0.6 TeraWatts I believe would have been bad.

 

They wanted to avoid some side effects on the planet, and they needed precision drilling, not just power...

[Tyralak 12,068]

It wouldn't matter. The amount of firepower shown is insufficient to cause that amount of damage. Unless of course the planet was made up of Kleenex. As I mentioned before, the E-D(E) could withstand the firepower shown onscreen. Again explain to me why in an TNG ep that the E-D had to spend time configuring the phasers to drill into the planet's core if they could have easily done that by firing phasers unadjusted? The combined firepower thrown around in that scene in TDIC is what? low gigaton level? That isn't enough to wreck one third of the planet.

 

 

 

It's been explained before, and was also mentioned in the episode. They were using the Phaser as a DRILL. It was being used surgically as a precision instrument, not a bludgeoning tool. They had to calibrate it precisely so they could fix the problem without wrecking things. And yes, the E-D's shields could withstand the same firepower, obviously. They are designed to deal with those kind of weapons. When you think about it, it's no more inconsistent that an ISD supposedly being able to take Turbolaser blasts but being creamed by a slow moving asteroid.

 

 

 

Also your missile analogy is wrong. It is more like the fighter launches a missile into a densely clouded city then sees swirly patterns in the clouds and deduces that it must have destroyed one third of the city when in realty it did a whole lot less.

 

 

 

No it isn't. Any fighter pilot who is halfway competent knows the yield of his weaponry. There is no way he would conclude that he destroyed a third of a city with a small missile. If he did, he belongs in a mental institution, not a cockpit. It is not logical to think that the Romulans would have gone to the Founder's planet for the EXPRESS PURPOSE of demolishing the surface, if they were incapable of doing it. They knew the capability of their weapons, and they knew exactly what to expect. Which is why they were not the least bit surprised when the damage reports came back. To be fair, however, we don't know what the definition of "destroyed" is in this case. It could mean anywhere from plowed up to slagged and/or vaporized. That that's a big variable right there.

 

 

 

It isn't like they've concentrated their attacks into one small area. It was all over the place. Each shot would not have punctured the planet's crust and cause massive damage unless again that said planet was made out of tissue paper. They were trying to kill off the Founders but instead were tricked themselves.

 

 

 

Watch the clip again. We know there were more ships than the few that were shown. We can also see that more shots were fired than we see hit the surface. It's reasonable to conclude that we were only shown a small part of the damage. Also, what you're referring to as just atmospheric effects, are likely not. Look at the two largest explosions we see there. They clearly come upward from the surface an balloon outward. Again, we don't see the whole planet or the complete extent of the bombardment. Also, one again, the ruse was in relation to LIFE SIGNS ONLY. Listen to the dialogue again. They were confused because they saw 1/3 of the planet's crust destroyed, but the life signs readings still intact. THAT was how they figured out they were tricked. The ruse was the life signs readings, not the damage reports. I find it amazing that so many of you Warsies are willing to take a blurb in a glorified comic book as gospel which overrides the complete lack of supporting evidence anywhere else, but try to explain away what's right in front of your face. Especially since TDiC has supporting evidence as far back as TOS.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Last i checked mushroom clouds looked like this

 

 

 

And they come from large bright fireballs

 

 

 

 

 

As was previously mentioned, how do they look from the top down? Especially from orbit.

 

 

 

Guess what TDiC doesnt have?

 

 

 

Nukes? You see, last time I checked, Disrupters and Photon Torpedoes were not atomic weapons.

[enigma 521]

And what would those mushroom clouds look like from far above, in orbit, like, say, from the firing ships' positions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually Enigma, they had to adjust the Phasers because they wanted a fine control over them, and a variance of 0.6 TeraWatts I believe would have been bad.

 

They wanted to avoid some side effects on the planet, and they needed precision drilling, not just power...

 

 

 

You do know that a low yield nuke like the ones dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki also do the same thing and can be seen from orbit? All this is going to show is that the phaser\diruptors plus the torps have a low end firepower in the lower kiloton yield. In no way have any ST power have shown to have that kind of energy generation. If so then that Borg Cube was withstanding planet shattering firepower at Wolf 359 but even the Borg have that kind of power generation.

 

 

 

In short, in no way, especially from the Cardies do any ST power have that kind of firepower\power generation.

[StarDestroyerAvenger 2,147,483,647]

LOL I broke out into laughter from just reading the title alone. Detecting Trekkie bullshit doesn't even require any real skill anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

Too bad SDA doesn't seem to be here anymore, we would've had some serious opposition, which would have started strong, intelligent debate on the subject...

 

 

 

Yes because we all know how strong this place is known for its challenging debate....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know why we have to go through this bullshit every time. I would think this issue is done with but apparently we still have stubborn Trekkies who just can't deal with the truth. I mean Jesus Christ if you'd just open your damn eyes it's fucking obvious that the damage equates to at best a moderate earthquake and at the very least nowhere near planetary-level damage is anywhere visible let alone "2/3s of the planet's surface destroyed"

[Praeothmin 532]

LOL I broke out into laughter from just reading the title alone. Detecting Trekkie bullshit doesn't even require any real skill anymore.

 

 

 

Just like detecting Warsie bullshit I guess...

 

 

 

 

 

Yes because we all know how strong this place is known for its challenging debate....

 

 

 

 

Well, since you've yet to come up with a single challenging "rebuttal" to anything and since you only seem to be able to insult people, then I guess they are...

 

 

 

I don't know why we have to go through this bullshit every time. I would think this issue is done with but apparently we still have stubborn Trekkies who just can't deal with the truth. I mean Jesus Christ if you'd just open your damn eyes it's fucking obvious that the damage equates to at best a moderate earthquake and at the very least nowhere near planetary-level damage is anywhere visible let alone "2/3s of the planet's surface destroyed"

 

 

 

For the same reason we have to go through the "Base Delta Zero" bullshit everytime?

 

It's always amusing how TiDC is always vehemently denied as showing anything powerful, yet any low power shot from an ISD seen in the SW movies will see SW fans bending over backwards to explain it away, just to keep

 

their vaunted Gigatons myth intact...

 

Now, am I saying I believe TiDC shows valid ST firepower and should be considered canon, end-of-story?

 

Probably not, but what I am saying is that, it would at least show some honesty in the debate to analyze both sides using the same methods, and the same quantity of SOD...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You do know that a low yield nuke like the ones dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki also do the same thing and can be seen from orbit? All this is going to show is that the phaser\diruptors plus the torps have a low end firepower in the lower kiloton yield.

 

 

 

Enigma, has anyone measured the size of those explosions on the surface?

 

That could give us an approximation of the yields seen.

 

Also, I know Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be seen from from orbit.

 

My question is, what did they look like from up there?

 

And how large were they when compared to the planet's diameter?

 

I'm pretty sure they weren't as big as what has been shown in TiDC, even though there's still the question about the appearance of mushroom clouds in orbit, from above the explosions...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

As was previously mentioned, how do they look from the top down? Especially from orbit.

Last I checked planets were spherical thus the ship could only be directly above one. the rest would be at a varying angle and look something like

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nukes? You see, last time I checked, Disrupters and Photon Torpedoes were not atomic weapons.

 

 

 

here we have a small kinetic impact, i guess they put a nuke in the asteroid

 

 

 

 

 

 

A multi teraton kinetic impact, i guess the fireball is from the nuke they planted there

 

 

 

 

 

Large explosions produce large fireballs which are quite lacking from TDiC

[enigma 521]

Enigma, has anyone measured the size of those explosions on the surface?

 

That could give us an approximation of the yields seen.

 

Also, I know Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be seen from from orbit.

 

My question is, what did they look like from up there?

 

And how large were they when compared to the planet's diameter?

 

I'm pretty sure they weren't as big as what has been shown in TiDC, even though there's still the question about the appearance of mushroom clouds in orbit, from above the explosions...

 

 

 

One thing was agreed over at SDN is that phasers uses NDF reaction and works best against targets that are not quite dense but is weaker against dense materials. It is also theorized that since it was a rogue planet and could still support life that it would have had a very thin crust. Now, put two and two together and there could be a slight chance that the one third crust destruction could have been possible. BUT there still would have been lasting repercussion on the planet after having a third of it's crust destroyed. Other than clouds wobbling there was nothing to show that the Cardies\Romulans had that capabilities. Plus they relied on their info on a changeling posing as a Romulan commander.

 

 

 

All in all unless a new Trek series pops up showing Fed\Klingon\Romulan\etc... ships doing real damage to a planet, there is no indication that they can destroy a planet in short order with so little ships.

 

 

 

Also before I forget, even if TDIC shows that they can destroy a planet's crust and mantle in a little as five hours, it only proves that it would take 20 ST ships to do a job that an ISD could do better.

 

 

 

We can't compare firepower between ST and SW because it is lopsided towards SW's favour. Just to be in contention, the major Trek powers would have to concentrate heavily in offensive and defensive research. Find a way to make neutronium work for them. The Feds alone could have a leg up over their neighbors just because of the abundance of one-hot (or lost)tech. Reverse engineering at least the Echo Papa 607 would do wonders for the Feddies.

[Praeothmin 532]

One thing was agreed over at SDN is that phasers uses NDF reaction and works best against targets that are not quite dense but is weaker against dense materials. It is also theorized that since it was a rogue planet and could still support life that it would have had a very thin crust. Now, put two and two together and there could be a slight chance that the one third crust destruction could have been possible. BUT there still would have been lasting repercussion on the planet after having a third of it's crust destroyed. Other than clouds wobbling there was nothing to show that the Cardies\Romulans had that capabilities. Plus they relied on their info on a changeling posing as a Romulan commander.

 

 

 

First, NDF reactions have never been greatly explained, and while they do have difficulties against denser targets, so do most energy weapons.

 

For example, the Lightsabre, which can supposedly cut through anything, but had trouble cutting through Vader's shoulder pad, and needed time to eventually melt a blast door...

 

Just because it was agreed at SDN, doesn't mean it's true...

 

 

 

As for the lasting effects, I don't really remember if we saw some damage on the planet after the attack and I can't access Trekcore from my work PC.

 

Did we see some damage after the attack?

 

 

 

And about the changeling's info, that has got to be the lamest explanation ever.

 

If your were captain of a Battleship, and an "Inteligence Officer" told you to shoot at Moscow from the Persian Golf, and that you should expect to destroy Moscow completely within 5 hours, are you telling me that you would not question his findings, on your guns' range and power?

 

Are you telling me ship Captains are appointed to vessels while not knowing at all their weapons' capabilities?

 

I'd agree if the changeling had presented them a "new, prototype" weapon that was slated to do the job, but this doesn't hold against the fact that they were expecting this to be possible with their very own ship's weapons.

 

 

 

 

All in all unless a new Trek series pops up showing Fed\Klingon\Romulan\etc... ships doing real damage to a planet, there is no indication that they can destroy a planet in short order with so little ships.

 

 

 

In TOS, in the second season episode "Bread and Circuses", Claudius Marcus tells Kirk he knows that his ship could "lay waste to this world".

 

Yes, the terms are broad, but this and the "General Order 24" shows us that 1 ship can do immense damage to a planet's surface.

 

Destroy one?

 

I don't think so, but damage immensely, I have no doubt...

 

 

 

Also before I forget, even if TDIC shows that they can destroy a planet's crust and mantle in a little as five hours, it only proves that it would take 20 ST ships to do a job that an ISD could do better.

 

 

 

 

Which still has yet to be proven, since all the movies and even the Clone Wars series (the highest canon possible) are disproving at an alarming rate.

 

The "Base Delta Zero" has never been seen, and when it is talked about, it doesn't mention the number of ships nor the timeframe.

 

Of course, over at SDN, it was "logicaly" analyzed until it took only 1 ship under 1 hour to do so...

 

 

 

We can't compare firepower between ST and SW because it is lopsided towards SW's favour.

 

 

 

depends how you look at it, and who you ask...

[Tyralak 12,068]

Large explosions produce large fireballs which are quite lacking from TDiC

 

Are you quite certain this is the argument you want to push? I'll give you some time to reconsider before I reply.

[enigma 521]

First, NDF reactions have never been greatly explained, and while they do have difficulties against denser targets, so do most energy weapons.

 

For example, the Lightsabre, which can supposedly cut through anything, but had trouble cutting through Vader's shoulder pad, and needed time to eventually melt a blast door...

 

Just because it was agreed at SDN, doesn't mean it's true...

 

 

 

Phasers are useless against neutronium yet turbolasers can destroy it.

 

 

 

As for the lasting effects, I don't really remember if we saw some damage on the planet after the attack and I can't access Trekcore from my work PC.

 

Did we see some damage after the attack?

 

 

 

None whatsoever other than some rippling of the clouds. For a third of a planet's crust to be destroyed in ten seconds, you would have to be able to see it from orbit more than wobbly clouds!

 

 

 

And about the changeling's info, that has got to be the lamest explanation ever.

 

If your were captain of a Battleship, and an "Inteligence Officer" told you to shoot at Moscow from the Persian Golf, and that you should expect to destroy Moscow completely within 5 hours, are you telling me that you would not question his findings, on your guns' range and power?

 

Are you telling me ship Captains are appointed to vessels while not knowing at all their weapons' capabilities?

 

I'd agree if the changeling had presented them a "new, prototype" weapon that was slated to do the job, but this doesn't hold against the fact that they were expecting this to be possible with their very own ship's weapons.

 

 

I'd question the captain's competence if he didn't flinch at the results and asked some questions as to why a third of Moscow was reduced to ruins within ten seconds when he was told that it would take an hour to completely destroy the city. I'd certainly would question my men as to why I was falsely told that it would take an hour when at most it would have taken a total of half a minute.

 

 

 

In TOS, in the second season episode "Bread and Circuses", Claudius Marcus tells Kirk he knows that his ship could "lay waste to this world".

 

Yes, the terms are broad, but this and the "General Order 24" shows us that 1 ship can do immense damage to a planet's surface.

 

Destroy one?

 

I don't think so, but damage immensely, I have no doubt...

 

 

 

I have no doubt that they could *damage* a planet, we are doing the same right now to Earth! But outright destroy a planet will take a whole lot more planets than one or twenty.

 

 

 

Which still has yet to be proven, since all the movies and even the Clone Wars series (the highest canon possible) are disproving at an alarming rate.

 

The "Base Delta Zero" has never been seen, and when it is talked about, it doesn't mention the number of ships nor the timeframe.

 

Of course, over at SDN, it was "logicaly" analyzed until it took only 1 ship under 1 hour to do so...

 

 

 

Base Delta Zero is canon\official by Lucasfilm (or whoever sets the standards). Until it is outright disproven then BDZ will reduce a planet's crust into lava up to a depth of somewhere between half a mile to a mile.

 

 

 

As for ST firepower. In Pegasus, it was mentioned that it would have taken all of E-D's torpedoes to destroy the asteroid and escape. If the Fed's firepower is of so powerful then one or two torps would only have been needed not over 200. Jango Fett had an easy time destroying asteroids with his seismic charges. As for overall sturdiness, easy to compare as E-D couldn't maneuver through a stationary asteroid field yet ISDs were able to go through a violent asteroid field.

 

 

 

Sorry but ST's firepower is sorely lacking compared to SW.

[Kirk's Ripped Shirt 0]

Hi You might be interested in my feedback in the other topic which you can see here: http://www.clubasvs.net/forum/index.php/topic/92-in-defense-of-tdic/page__gopid__1998entry1998

[enigma 521]

Hi You might be interested in my feedback in the other topic which you can see here: http://www.clubasvs....1998entry1998

 

 

 

It doesn't explain why the Enterprise could not break out from the asteroid without using up all of their torpedoes(Pegasus), yet less firepower was thrown about destroying one third of the planet's crust?

[Elagabalus 0]

I believe the Founder's "planet" was actually closer to being a moon in size. In "The Search," I seem to recall Kira referring to it as a rogue moon. While a moon is still far greater in mass than an asteroid, it is possible that the Pegasus asteroid was composed of denser elements, and perhaps the Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order fleet was outfitted with unique weapons geared towards planetary destruction, as they went in with that specific mission and didn't intend to get into any fights with ships along the way. The Enterprise, conversely, would be outfitted with ship vs ship weapons, as orbital bombardment wasn't high on the Federation's list of priorities.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Phasers are useless against neutronium yet turbolasers can destroy it.

 

 

 

Tell me you're kidding. You didn't really pull out that old neutronium hull falsehood did you? Why don't we go back to the old "Turbolasers are useless against Trek ships because lasers can't penetrate navigational deflectors" argument? On the off chance you aren't pulling my chain and are actually being serious, RSA swatted this one down in less than a page. Neutronium Hull Falsehood

 

 

 

 

 

None whatsoever other than some rippling of the clouds. For a third of a planet's crust to be destroyed in ten seconds, you would have to be able to see it from orbit more than wobbly clouds!

 

 

 

You keep saying this, but "rippling clouds" is not what we see. Clouds don't come UP from the planet, and we don't see clouds to begin with. What we see appears to be the surface itself being liquefied and rippling. Look closely at the colors.

 

 

 

 

 

I have no doubt that they could *damage* a planet, we are doing the same right now to Earth! But outright destroy a planet will take a whole lot more planets than one or twenty.

 

 

 

Nobody said anything about destroying a planet. A Warbird isn't a Death Star. We're talking about destroying the crust. And as I mentioned before, we don't really know what "destroyed" means in this case. It could be any range of things.

 

 

 

 

 

Base Delta Zero is canon\official by Lucasfilm (or whoever sets the standards). Until it is outright disproven then BDZ will reduce a planet's crust into lava up to a depth of somewhere between half a mile to a mile.

 

 

 

Once again, it depends on what exactly you mean by BDZ. You really need to define your source for BDZ and exactly what it constitutes. Mind you, without resorting to the ICS, which really has been retconned out of relevancy. *sigh* must I quote Scooter again? BDZ

 

 

 

As for ST firepower. In Pegasus, it was mentioned that it would have taken all of E-D's torpedoes to destroy the asteroid and escape. If the Fed's firepower is of so powerful then one or two torps would only have been needed not over 200. Jango Fett had an easy time destroying asteroids with his seismic charges. As for overall sturdiness, easy to compare as E-D couldn't maneuver through a stationary asteroid field yet ISDs were able to go through a violent asteroid field.

 

 

 

And got creamed by one with it's shields up. Oh, and a Clone Wars era ship burned up on re-entry.