Evidence show Borg cube handle all Star Destroyer Empire send up against them.

[Praeothmin 532]

I have not conceded but it is kind of moot. Even if the Borg could adapt to the turbolaser technology, the point is that have they shown to be able to generate the same if not greater power generation of that of an ISD? On screen evidence shows that it doesn't. So even if they can adapt to the TLs they would not be able to handle that much firepower hitting it. Example would be First Contact. The Borg adapted to phasers and torpedoes but that didn't stop the Federation from actually damaging and eventually destroying the Cube.

 

 

 

Onscreen evidence shows that even ISDs cannot generate the same power as an ISD...

 

In other words?

 

ISDs aren'T more powerful than a ST ship, and Borg ships can adapt just fine to ST ships, so they will to the ISD's TLs...

[enigma 521]

But I am also going by EU not just on screen.

[Praeothmin 532]

But I am also going by EU not just on screen.

 

 

 

And the EU also has many low firepower incidents, like, say, the infamous Darksaber, or all the novels where X-Wings can bring down SD shields with their main energy weapons...

[enigma 521]

You go low and I go high. what is to say they can't be variable yield?

[Praeothmin 532]

You go low and I go high. what is to say they can't be variable yield?

 

 

 

I believe they are variable yield, just as in ST.

 

It would go a long way to nicely explain the variable figures or capabilities seen here and there.

 

Where we disagree is what the high ends are, and if they are logically acceptable.

 

 

 

Again, I believe ST and SW are comaprable in yields, so Borg will adapt because TLs aren't too powerful...

[Questor 501]

Infrared radiant energy is not the same as thermal energy, but it is one way thermal energy is radiated.

 

 

 

As for the rest, there are also chemical and nuclear energy, neither of which have frequency. Not to mention the myriad of things being lumped into kenetic energy here.

[enigma 521]

If that is what you believe then so what.

 

 

 

I believe that the ISD can defeat the Borg just by sheer firepower alone. Wookieepedia states that the ISD1's peak power output is ~7,73 × 10²⁴ W and the ISD2 is >9,28 × 10²⁴ W. And apparently in the Revenge of the Sith ICS, a "true warship" can direct it entire reactor output into weapons (thanks to Ford Prefect over at SDN. He doesn't know of this thread but the topic about how much energy can be poured into weapons was started by me in May and Ford among others helped with the source and all that.).

 

 

 

Can the Borg match or produce greater than 7.73x10e24 to 9.28x10e24 W?

 

 

 

BTW, would you believe the same with a SL?

[Tyralak 12,068]

If that is what you believe then so what.

 

 

 

I believe that the ISD can defeat the Borg just by sheer firepower alone. Wookieepedia states that the ISD1's peak power output is ~7,73 × 10²⁴ W and the ISD2 is >9,28 × 10²⁴ W. And apparently in the Revenge of the Sith ICS, a "true warship" can direct it entire reactor output into weapons (thanks to Ford Prefect over at SDN. He doesn't know of this thread but the topic about how much energy can be poured into weapons was started by me in May and Ford among others helped with the source and all that.).

 

 

 

Can the Borg match or produce greater than 7.73x10e24 to 9.28x10e24 W?

 

 

 

BTW, would you believe the same with a SL?

 

 

 

What source does Wookiepedia cite for those figures? Wookiepedia itself isn't an acceptable source. And what is Ford Prefect's excuse for not getting his ass over here?

[Praeothmin 532]

Infrared radiant energy is not the same as thermal energy, but it is one way thermal energy is radiated.

 

 

 

As for the rest, there are also chemical and nuclear energy, neither of which have frequency. Not to mention the myriad of things being lumped into kenetic energy here.

 

 

 

True, but which of these actually apply to TLs?

[Praeothmin 532]

BTW, would you believe the same with a SL?

 

 

 

Hell no, waaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy too much power for any Borg ship to adapt to...

 

 

 

Your SL example refers to my electronic circuit power surge protector example...

[Praeothmin 532]

Ty, the RotS ICS does indeed state the Venator could pour all its power output in its guns.

 

The real question then becomes:

 

Since it can do that, and since their enemies' shields were obviously so fucking weak, why did they not do it in the battle over Coruscant?

 

 

 

And we come back yet again to this very point:

 

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, in the movies even remotely approach those absurd firepower figures for SW, no matter how much logic twisting the Warsies try to apply to the figures and events shown in the movies...

[Questor 501]

True, but which of these actually apply to TLs?

 

 

 

None of them, which was the point of that rather long post.

 

 

 

Turbolasers do not exhibit behavior consistent with any known energy transfer mechanism. Neither do phasers for that matter.

 

 

 

I don't say phasers have frequency because they are light based (which any idiot should be able to deduce from the extreme STL speeds shown). I say they are frequency based because it is one of the most consistent items of technobabble in the series. I'd much rather throw that out, but canon is to consistent on the subject.

 

 

 

The same way I'd rather say the Borg are adapting in a rational way, and that shields are just some kind of energy capture/radiation device. Unfortunately, we have to much canon saying "frequency, frequency, frequency."

 

 

 

In SW, I do maintain that shields are energy capture/storage/radiators because the technobabble rot has not spread as far and I still can.

 

 

 

Am I being clear here?

[Praeothmin 532]

None of them, which was the point of that rather long post.

 

 

 

Turbolasers do not exhibit behavior consistent with any known energy transfer mechanism. Neither do phasers for that matter.

 

 

 

I don't say phasers have frequency because they are light based (which any idiot should be able to deduce from the extreme STL speeds shown). I say they are frequency based because it is one of the most consistent items of technobabble in the series. I'd much rather throw that out, but canon is to consistent on the subject.

 

 

 

The same way I'd rather say the Borg are adapting in a rational way, and that shields are just some kind of energy capture/radiation device. Unfortunately, we have to much canon saying "frequency, frequency, frequency."

 

 

 

In SW, I do maintain that shields are energy capture/storage/radiators because the technobabble rot has not spread as far and I still can.

 

 

 

Am I being clear here?

 

 

 

I understood you the first time, I just don't agree with this...

 

 

 

Turbolasers behave in similar fashion as many ST weapons, i.e., they emit some kind of energy "beam" or "pulse".

 

From what we know of energy, any "beam" or "pulse" "radiates" its power in a certain way, i,e., it has a frequency...

 

TLs explode when they hit a target, just like Phasers.

 

They have more similarities then dissimilarities when compared to ST "energy weapons", so if ST weapons have a frequency, then I believe so do TLs...

 

 

 

I don't expect to convince you, but simply to explain why I believe what I believe...

[Questor 501]

You can't do that.

 

 

 

You can't just say they work the same when the very idea of this property is so outlandish.

 

 

 

Saying they must be the same because they share some properties (and I don't believe they do) is like saying that a nuclear event and a chemical explosion are the same because the both generate an overpressure wave.

[Praeothmin 532]

That's not what I'm saying...

 

 

 

If you have a laser, and a weapon that discharges electricity.

 

Both are energy weapons, both emit some form of electromagnetic energy to their target while not being completely similar, but one thing they both have in common:

 

A carrier with a frequency...

 

 

 

Different types of weapons, different types of effects, but same type of transmission, both with frequencies...

[Questor 501]

That's not what I'm saying...

 

 

 

If you have a laser, and a weapon that discharges electricity.

 

Both are energy weapons, both emit some form of electromagnetic energy to their target while not being completely similar, but one thing they both have in common:

 

A carrier with a frequency...

 

 

 

Different types of weapons, different types of effects, but same type of transmission, both with frequencies...

 

 

 

 

 

How does a lightning gun have a frequency? Electricity only has frequency if it's AC.

 

 

 

Also: Why does a turbolaser have to have a frequency. You are claiming they have a frequency, you need to prove they do. The only basic type of energy with a frequency is radiant. Everything else operates differently in one way or another. Why are we assuming that a slower than light weapon is light?

 

 

 

Just because you want it to be is not sufficient evidence to assume that there is any frequency involved other than the color of the light emitted by the bolt.

[Jason 27]

In pratice frequency may not be we think as frequency in rule world. To many times Star Terk not use right words any when come real science. They may just be saying to sound cool. Or just make sound high tech.

[Praeothmin 532]

How does a lightning gun have a frequency? Electricity only has frequency if it's AC.

 

 

 

Also: Why does a turbolaser have to have a frequency. You are claiming they have a frequency, you need to prove they do. The only basic type of energy with a frequency is radiant. Everything else operates differently in one way or another. Why are we assuming that a slower than light weapon is light?

 

 

 

Just because you want it to be is not sufficient evidence to assume that there is any frequency involved other than the color of the light emitted by the bolt.

 

 

 

Well, you cannot transmit DC without some sort of carrier, either wires like in a taser (then not a true energy weapon, and very limited range), or, just like in the case of radio signals, you use a carrier wave, which will have a frequency.

 

Or you use a high-powered voltage gun that radiates an electromagnetic field to a target just line high-voltage power lines do, so again, we are talking frequencies...

 

There cannot be any power transmission through the air without some sort of "carrier wave" which entails frequencies...

 

 

 

And by the way, how can we analyze TL and Phaser nature?

 

By observable effects, which is also used in the modern scientific analysis method.

 

But by your rule, we cannot use any similarities between the weapons to draw parallels, even if modern scientists often do so in real life.

 

So I will draw parallels if I feel it is warranted, whether you like it or not.

 

We know, from observable effects on living creatures in the movies and in the EU, that they live in a Galaxy with the same physics laws as in ST (carbon creatures need oxygen, they eat like us, breed like us, gravity affects them the same, they bleed like us, their planets are similar to the ones found in ST, etc, etc...).

 

They both use electricity in their ships, and both ignore basic physics when ships fly (no conservation of momentum, both use strange energy weapons with bizarre properties that defy modern physics), their ships are capable of incredible speeds and accelerations, etc, etc...

 

 

 

You know what?

 

Forget it, I will not draw comparisons to ST weapons, I will treat them as their own entity, and will use the most likely explanation:

 

They are plasma weapons shooting a packet of highly condensed plasma in a magnetic container.

 

 

 

TL batteries and cannons use Tibanna gas as “ammoâ€, so the gas is ionized, encapsulated in a “magnetic bottle†which serves to keep its coherence and also denies gravity somewhat, and is fired.

 

 

 

Sometimes, the gas is not fully encapsulated, so some escapes the cannon when the “bolt†is fired, and is then subject to gravity, as we see on the DS TL.

 

 

 

This “magnetic bottle†can also damage targets because it is a high-powered magnetic pulse (highly energetic to contain all the condensed plasma), and sometimes is so powerful its leading edge hits the target before the plasma does and creates the “invisible part damages target†effect.

 

 

 

By making the “magnetic bottle†more or less powerful, you control its coherence and effective distance, giving you a capacity for “flack burstsâ€.

 

 

 

And the “magnetic bottle†explains Blaster bolt deflections from Lightsabres nicely, as well as the ricocheting bolt in the trash compactor on the DS. The walls were “magnetically sealedâ€â€¦

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wong says it can't be because

there is no known mechanism to create such a phenomenon,

, wilfully ignoring that there is also no known mechanism that allows creation of Lightsabres, but he is willing to consider the following as one of the possible explanations:

 

 

 

The bolts are composed of massless particles which move at subluminal speed, even though no such particle has ever been observed or even theorized to exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I say, I don’t care what he says, I say TLs are magneto-plasma weapons…

 

 

 

What’s the difference between the Ion bolts and a standard TL bolt, you ask?

 

 

 

Ion concentration.

 

 

 

You have less in Ion bolts, thus lessening physical damage and keeping it contained to electrical circuits…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, what does that mean for the Borg?

 

 

 

While the Borg will be able to adapt to the “magnetic bottle†and counter it, they will get hit full on by the plasma, which deals its damage through contact, so no adaptation.

 

 

 

The TLs will deal more damage than the weapons seen in ST :FC because, while comparable in power, they cannot be fully adapted to, so an equal number of ISDs will deal more damage to the Borg than an equal number of Sovereigns, for example…

 

 

 

 

[Questor 501]

On the electricity discussion, you have that entirely wrong.

 

 

 

Electricity OF ANY KIND cannot travel through a non conducting medium. In a gas, such as air, either AC or DC can create an electric breakdown in the surrounding gas, turning it to plasma. Eventually you get an arc. This has nothing to do with frequency. Electricty CANNOT travel through a vacuum at all.

 

 

 

I will respond to the rest later today.

[Praeothmin 532]

On the electricity discussion, you have that entirely wrong.

 

 

 

Electricity OF ANY KIND cannot travel through a non conducting medium. In a gas, such as air, either AC or DC can create an electric breakdown in the surrounding gas, turning it to plasma. Eventually you get an arc. This has nothing to do with frequency. Electricty CANNOT travel through a vacuum at all.

 

 

 

I will respond to the rest later today.

 

 

 

You are right.

 

My analogy was flawed...

[Tyralak 12,068]

Most of that I agree with. However, once again, unless the damage is purely thermal (which would result in ridiculously low yields) we are dealing with something that the Borg can potentially adapt to. There's really no proof that they CAN'T adapt to thermal. It's an assumption. There's also the fact that TLs are blocked by Ray Shielding, which deflects energy weapons. Not Particle Shielding which deflects torpedoes, meteorites, and other kinetic impacts. So, this leaves the plasma as being simply a carrier for some other kind of energy. Once again, the Trek universe is filled with different kinds of energy weapons. Phasers and Disruptors which use Nadion particles to damage their target. Tetryon weapons, Antimatter, and even Plasma. The Borg manage to adapt to all of them. The only time I recall that they didn't was when they were attacked by 8472. It's unclear if it is because the weapons 8472 had were so powerful that they overwhelmed the Borg shields (which isn't surprising, since a couple of ships blew a planet to bits in seconds.) or that they couldn't adapt. I suspect the former.

[Jason 27]

I am not so sure we saw speical 8472 warship need Borg cube twice allow it ram into speical 8472 warship. THe borg may been slowly adapting just not fast enought to able turn tide battle Borg favor.

[Praeothmin 532]

Was googling about Bolos today for some unrelated reason, and found this Hellbore description:

 

Hellbore ammunition consists of slivers of highly-pressurized frozen deuterium which, when fired, are ignited (by a laser) in a fusion reaction. The resulting bolt is contained and directed using strong magnetic fields in the breech and barrel. The resulting plasma travels at a considerable fraction of light speed and is not affected by planetary gravity. However, since the Hellbore was designed as naval armament for Concordiat warships, modifications had to be made to avoid losing a significant portion of the shot's energy to atmospheric attenuation. To this end, a fraction of a second prior to deuterium detonation, a laser is fired along the path of the bolt to create a momentary vacuum. Later Bolo marks are capable of internally manufacturing Hellbore rounds, using water as a raw material, whereby the deuterium isotope of hydrogen is separated and cooled cryogenically into splinters of frozen hydrogen.

 

 

 

In other words, SW TLs are Hellbores...

[Questor 501]

Was googling about Bolos today for some unrelated reason, and found this Hellbore description:

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, SW TLs are Hellbores...

 

 

 

That's actually been my private theory for a while...

 

 

 

can't prove it though.

[Tyralak 12,068]

That seems to explain most things, except that TLs are defended against by Ray Sheilding. Which is specifically designed for energy weapons as opposed to Particle Shielding which is designed to deflect kinetic impacts such as asteroids, Proton Torpedoes and Concussion Missles. This Tibana Gas could be used in this way or it could be just a catyalist, as the tech manuals imply. I believe one of them (I'll have to look) describes TLs as 'Particle weapons'.