Dogfight of the millennium

[Praeothmin 532]

They can get to at least warp 0.5 with full impulse but the speed is achieved by the impulse engines NOT the warp engines.

 

 

 

"Full impulse" always seemed to me to be more in regards the rate of acceleration to the top speed the ship had available more than a definition of the top speed itself, but it maybe kinda both in a weird trek way.

 

 

 

 

 

But the speed you showed us is close ot, or above c.

 

If they did travel a distance equal to 4 times the Earth-Moon distance, that's 3 times 384000km, or 1 200 000km approximately, in four seconds, which is c (300 000km/s).

 

They cannot do that in STL through Impulse engines, they have to use Warp engines.

 

 

 

 

 

We only see the DS pop one planet........how often does a event need to happen for it to be canon?.

 

 

 

You need to see this the other way around.

 

When do we see the DS NOT obliterate a target when it fires its Superlaser?

 

Nerver, unlike the torpedoes in Trek which don't all go at the same speeds.

 

Out off 100 torpedoes fired, 99 go slower then the "Half a Life" torpedo while going faster would be helpful.

 

Why, then, don't they all go at the "Half a Life" speed?

 

 

 

 

 

I suppose i could make a reasonable argument that the jellyfish is not a nutrek ship but a highly advanced oldtrek ship so the TMP images can be applied as a comparison to that particular ship and only that ship (as neros got squooshed) in nutrek.

 

 

 

And I would simply have to say that we haven't seen it display speeds anything like the Connie in OldTrek...

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

But the speed you showed us is close ot, or above c.

 

If they did travel a distance equal to 4 times the Earth-Moon distance, that's 3 times 384000km, or 1 200 000km approximately, in four seconds, which is c (300 000km/s).

 

They cannot do that in STL through Impulse engines, they have to use Warp engines.

 

 

 

Well im not gonna put as much faith in my calcs as you did as i was just giving a rough estimation.

 

 

 

But he clearly says its at impulse and we know that when they later use the warp engines things go tits up so they were not doing so to get to the speeds we see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to see this the other way around.

 

When do we see the DS NOT obliterate a target when it fires its Superlaser?

 

Nerver, unlike the torpedoes in Trek which don't all go at the same speeds.

 

Out off 100 torpedoes fired, 99 go slower then the "Half a Life" torpedo while going faster would be helpful.

 

Why, then, don't they all go at the "Half a Life" speed?

 

 

 

 

We see the DS laser kill 1 planet, then the DS 2 take out a bunch of ships that is likely much easier to do.....do you think that the DS superlaser has only one power setting?. And if it did only have one power setting would not a lot of the beam continue on after the ship had exploded?.

 

 

 

Likewise the torps can go faster or slower most likely depending on how much they need to manouver or track and a object like a sun is hardly a nimble fighter craft. Not only that but they are also fired at ships and would likely be set for the best TOT effect so the speed they travel at would reflect that.

 

 

 

 

 

And I would simply have to say that we haven't seen it display speeds anything like the Connie in OldTrek...

 

 

 

Well when it was dropping the red matter we do see it easily skirting the edge of a expanding supernova that was travelling/expanding at a speed that would allow it to "destroy the galaxy" and it was certainly not at warp while doing so.

 

 

 

Good enough?.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Oh, never fucking mind. The clips get pulled down from every site I upload them to.

[Praeothmin 532]

Well im not gonna put as much faith in my calcs as you did as i was just giving a rough estimation.

 

 

 

But he clearly says its at impulse and we know that when they later use the warp engines things go tits up so they were not doing so to get to the speeds we see.

 

 

 

Well then, we'd have to do the calculations, but if they are going faster then c, there's something fishy going on...

 

 

 

 

 

We see the DS laser kill 1 planet, then the DS 2 take out a bunch of ships that is likely much easier to do.....do you think that the DS superlaser has only one power setting?. And if it did only have one power setting would not a lot of the beam continue on after the ship had exploded?.

 

 

 

 

Nope, I say the DS always kills its target, while torpedoes don't always go at these speeds , even in all the multiple times it would have been useful...

 

 

 

 

 

Likewise the torps can go faster or slower most likely depending on how much they need to manouver or track and a object like a sun is hardly a nimble fighter craft. Not only that but they are also fired at ships and would likely be set for the best TOT effect so the speed they travel at would reflect that.

 

 

 

That could be, except that many times, such as in the DS9 battles like "Way of the Warrior" (again, as discussed at SFJ), having faster torpedoes would have been useful, since they were firing at short range at straight moving targets...

 

 

 

 

 

Well when it was dropping the red matter we do see it easily skirting the edge of a expanding supernova that was travelling/expanding at a speed that would allow it to "destroy the galaxy" and it was certainly not at warp while doing so.

 

 

 

Good enough?.

 

 

 

We'd need to calc this as well... Damn all those calcs...

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

Well then, we'd have to do the calculations, but if they are going faster then c, there's something fishy going on...

 

 

 

We'd need to calc this as well... Damn all those calcs...

 

 

 

Yea well i have no idea how to do em.........but i can lay the crap out of a lawn, patio, drive way along with any other ground work and cut down any kind of tree in virtually any kind of area along with other crap like that...

 

 

 

Nope, I say the DS always kills its target, while torpedoes don't always go at these speeds , even in all the multiple times it would have been useful...

 

 

 

Maybe but getting the best out of TOT means a lot of them would be required to go slower, plus we cannot always judge distance and relative speed accuratly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That could be, except that many times, such as in the DS9 battles like "Way of the Warrior" (again, as discussed at SFJ), having faster torpedoes would have been useful, since they were firing at short range at straight moving targets...

 

 

 

Maybe but for all we know some of those ships could have been moving at a large percentage of c, plus you need to factor in guidance systems, can you imagine how difficult it would be to hit a ship manouvering at close to c with a torp that accelerated close to c instantly?.

 

 

 

I would think the chance of missing would be uber high in those circumstances as the calculations and adjustments the guidance system would need to make would have to be as fast if not faster than c.

[Tyralak 12,068]

As for the comparison between the Jellyfish and an older Connie, NuTrek has shown things way different then OldTrek, like shielded vessels getting hull damage even from low speed, low kinetic impact, which we never see in OldTrek, TNG, or DS9.

 

 

 

I don't think we do. If you're talking about the debris field incident, that's already been shown to not be hull damage to the Enterprise, but debris being broken apart.

[Praeothmin 532]

I don't think we do. If you're talking about the debris field incident, that's already been shown to not be hull damage to the Enterprise, but debris being broken apart.

 

 

 

What?

 

You mean when they dived below the half saucer section and the plates were getting scraped off the Port Nacelle?

[Tyralak 12,068]

What?

 

You mean when they dived below the half saucer section and the plates were getting scraped off the Port Nacelle?

 

 

 

Ok, I just rewatched that, looks like you're right. WTF? Now I am a bit pissed at Abrams. Now we have to figure out a way to reconcile this scene with 40 years of Trek that says DEFLECTOR SHIELDS ARE THERE TO STOP THIS KIND OF THING! Quote: "Deflector shields are holding, sir." Any ideas?

 

 

 

EDIT: Full disclosure. I've asked for ideas at TrekBBS. Perhaps we can discuss their responses as well. Here's the thread.

[Questor 501]

Ok, I just rewatched that, looks like you're right. WTF? Now I am a bit pissed at Abrams. Now we have to figure out a way to reconcile this scene with 40 years of Trek that says DEFLECTOR SHIELDS ARE THERE TO STOP THIS KIND OF THING! Quote: "Deflector shields are holding, sir." Any ideas?

 

 

 

EDIT: Full disclosure. I've asked for ideas at TrekBBS. Perhaps we can discuss their responses as well. Here's the thread.

 

 

 

How about we do what Abrams said he did, and throw out the 40 years of canon?

 

 

 

It's not like we know the divergence point. It for damn sure isn't the one we were shown.

 

 

 

My guess is somewhere pre-Enterprise.

[Praeothmin 532]

How about we do what Abrams said he did, and throw out the 40 years of canon?

 

 

 

It's not like we know the divergence point. It for damn sure isn't the one we were shown.

 

 

 

My guess is somewhere pre-Enterprise.

 

 

 

 

 

Although the guys over at TrekBBS do have a point:

 

We see the same thing in ST: VI.

 

 

 

But where I disagree is that things aren't interesting when you see shields flaring after a hit.

 

I felt NEM's battle scene was exciting, and I liked the conformal shields of the E-E, and their flaring after each hit, and the fact that their flaring diminished on those shields that were failing, and the "Oh my God, we're fucked" facial expression of the crews when they lost the dorsal saucer "Bridge" shield...

[enigma 521]

I'd give it to the X-wing for at least two reasons. One, Jellyfish was not designed combat. Yes, it had weapons but only torpedoes (as stated by Memory Alpha) and not very strong ones at that. It was supposed to be used for scientific purposes and not for war. X-wing on the other hand is designed for combat and is well armed. Second, the X-wing is piloted by a Jedi! Force enhanced abilities anyone? Able to dodge incoming fire from the DS *AND* TIE fighters while only using the Force to guide the torpedoes into the DS' thermal vent.

 

 

 

This is like Superman versus a one armed, one legged man with a severe case of Down's Syndrome.

[enigma 521]

 

Why didn't the torpedo then accelerate to catch them?

 

 

 

Dunno.

 

 

 

Torpedoes do not have warp drives but have warp sustainers. In other words, in order to achieve warp the torpedo launcher must also be in warp for it to launch it at that speed.

[Tyralak 12,068]

I have clips of the Jellyfish I'd like to post, but since no hosting site will let me upload them, I'm trying to find a way to contact Paramount for permission to host them here.

[Praeothmin 532]

I'd give it to the X-wing for at least two reasons. One, Jellyfish was not designed combat. Yes, it had weapons but only torpedoes (as stated by Memory Alpha) and not very strong ones at that. It was supposed to be used for scientific purposes and not for war. X-wing on the other hand is designed for combat and is well armed. Second, the X-wing is piloted by a Jedi! Force enhanced abilities anyone? Able to dodge incoming fire from the DS *AND* TIE fighters while only using the Force to guide the torpedoes into the DS' thermal vent.

 

 

 

This is like Superman versus a one armed, one legged man with a severe case of Down's Syndrome.

 

 

 

While its weapons may not be super impressive, they compare well to the X-Wing's.

 

But when I read your "is piloted by a Jedi", I re-read the op and saw it was Luke piloting the X-Wing.

 

While it may not be the curbstomp you predict, I give it clearly to the X-Wing now...

[Khas 12,158]

I'd give it to the X-wing for at least two reasons. One, Jellyfish was not designed combat. Yes, it had weapons but only torpedoes (as stated by Memory Alpha) and not very strong ones at that. It was supposed to be used for scientific purposes and not for war. X-wing on the other hand is designed for combat and is well armed. Second, the X-wing is piloted by a Jedi! Force enhanced abilities anyone? Able to dodge incoming fire from the DS *AND* TIE fighters while only using the Force to guide the torpedoes into the DS' thermal vent.

 

 

 

This is like Superman versus a one armed, one legged man with a severe case of Down's Syndrome.

 

 

 

Dodging the blasts from TLs isn't too hard, as they're line-of-sight based. Luke actually got clipped by a TIE Fighter's blasts, so he doesn't dodge them too well. This is also a fight between two small ships, and the Jellyfish's torpedoes were enough to cut through the Narada's drill. A similarly-sized craft wouldn't be too hard to knock out.

 

 

 

And I'm pretty sure I stated that this is a dogfight to simply disable the other craft, not to destroy.

[enigma 521]

Dodging the blasts from TLs isn't too hard, as they're line-of-sight based. Luke actually got clipped by a TIE Fighter's blasts, so he doesn't dodge them too well. This is also a fight between two small ships, and the Jellyfish's torpedoes were enough to cut through the Narada's drill. A similarly-sized craft wouldn't be too hard to knock out.

 

 

 

And I'm pretty sure I stated that this is a dogfight to simply disable the other craft, not to destroy.

 

 

 

The X-wing is not a stationary target like the Narada's drill. Luke's X-wing didn't get clipped AFAIK, but R2 was. Still, I'd put Luke's skill with the X-wing over Spock in the Jellyfish.

 

 

 

Luke will still win and disable Spock.