Limitations of Blasters vs. Phasers

[enigma 521]

Phasers and torps are like automatic rifles and hand grenades.

 

 

 

Anyways, I do not see how a phaser beam could cause shock waves.

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

The Voyager crew once again proven to be retarded. Can't use phasers because it could create shock waves? But depth charges don't?

 

 

 

I suppose the deeper the phaser needed to penitrate into the water the more power and disturbance it would cause by continually needing to disintigrate more and more water over and over to reach the depth.

 

 

 

Its not like drilling through stone ect that leaves a hole bud, for every meter of depth the beam would be required to disintigrate all the prior meters over and over as the water was replaced, at 1000 meters they would need enough power to essentially disintigrate every one of those thousand meters all at the same time and for every second they continue to fire.

[enigma 521]

Then where's the shock waves if you are just disintegrating water?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I don't see ship mounted phasers acting similar to hand phasers. Both seem to have different effects on their targets. Hand phasers at full power will disintegrate it's target but ship mounted phasers seem to act more like a battering ram. Ship phasers look like they punch their targets than disintegrate its targeted area.

[Questor 501]

Oh, jesus christ...

 

 

 

Shock wave has a definition, the wiki article is actually rather good, if a bit light on math.

 

 

 

In this case, the shock wave you are dealing with is most likely moving shock from the supersonic particles of the phaser beam traveling through the stationary fluid. THIS WOULD HAPPEN IN AIR AS WELL, but the effects would be magnified by the incompressibility of water.

 

 

 

Frankly, if an ST shuttle can't handle the shock from firing phasers, we need to have a whole other discussion.

[Tyralak 12,068]

There's always the explanation of exotic reactions with seawater. A cop out yes, but it could be fleshed out to create a reasonable explanation.

[Questor 501]

There's always the explanation of exotic reactions with seawater. A cop out yes, but it could be fleshed out to create a reasonable explanation.

 

 

 

Except that's not a shockwave. That's 'exotic reactions with water.'

 

 

 

This is like pointing at a door and saying "desk," it just doesn't make any sense.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Except that's not a shockwave. That's 'exotic reactions with water.'

 

 

 

This is like pointing at a door and saying "desk," it just doesn't make any sense.

 

 

 

It makes perfect sense. Exotic reactions cause the shockwave.

[Questor 501]

It makes perfect sense. Exotic reactions cause the shockwave.

 

 

 

Except reactions don't cause shockwaves, movement does.

 

 

 

There's a critical step between the reaction and the shockwave - the generation of a fast moving mass of either a fluid, semi-fluid (although I believe fluid solid shock waves are rather poorly studied except in theory - who wants to fill a massive tank with silly putty just so you can shoot bullets and missiles into it?), or solid. That can be (and usually is) generated by some kind of reaction. (Discussion of exotic reactions below)

 

 

 

The problem is that once again, the Trek writers did not do the research, and failed to realize that any shockwave through a fluid should be something that a craft that can enter an atmosphere - much less handle weapons detonations even on the order of the absolute minimum for ST weapons - can easily withstand.

 

 

 

Even assuming that there is some kind of "boring" effect going on, and the "shock wave" comes from the formation of a column of superheated air around the beam as the leading edge of the phaser beam encounters a new layer of water molecules, the total energy output from the shockwave should be less than that generated by the phaser - as some of the energy will be absorbed superheating the liquid. Not to mention that water is a fluid, and any effects would be to the behavior in any other fluid, such as air. Given that we don't EVER see turbulence from phaser fired in an atmosphere, I think we can rule that out.

 

 

 

Specific interactions with water are ruled out the same way. There is a tremendous amount of water suspended in the atmosphere. Having a weapon that kills you if you fire it on a humid day strikes me as a bad idea - even by trek weapons standards.

 

 

 

This (and the related issues) are a huge part of the reason why DEW weapons are so inefficient in an atmosphere. Blasters and other plasma based weapons would be worse. Sonic disrupters (which klingon/romulan disrupters are described as, but do not in any way behave as) would not have this particular issue at all. I'm not finding a whole ton on the effects of low mass particles on fluids, so I have no idea how particle beams would work.

 

 

 

Simply firing a solid object into another at multiples of the speed of sound is probably far more efficient at killing than any of the above. Throw in a lot of the other ancillary tech Star Trek has, but does not use in appropriate ways, and there should be FAR better options for ground combat.

 

 

 

P.S.: For every one of these rediculously low end data points Jason brings up that we are expected to ignore for various reasons, can Enigma ignore one low end example in SW?

[Praeothmin 532]

Yeah, just re-read where Myth got the "shockwave" source from, and it also mentioned that they had to work on a Torpedo to change it into a "Depth Charge".

 

Ok, we know everyweapon in Trek has an adjustable yield, so who says they used a maximum yield Torpedo?

 

After all, they just wanted to stop the ship, not destroy it.

 

And we know Torpedoes can "knock the antenna off a shuttlepod" at their lowest settings, so when they modified the Torpedoes, they made it much less powerful (accounting for the shockwave it would generate) and capable of proximity detonation, while ship Phasers were incapable of being lowered that much in power.

 

Voilà, you have Phasers that create shockwave (normal), Torpedoes that also do, but a modified, ultra-low powered one modified for proximity blast creates less and wont destroy the Flyer...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes, Trek writers are dumb sometimes...

[Mith 0]

It really doesn't matter why the phasers shouldn't cause a shockwave--the fact is that they do and given all the other weird shit that goes one, I wouldn't be surprised. It probably has something to do with the amount of water and subspace physics.

[enigma 521]

Well we are talking about a series that thinks that escaping a black hole is through a crack in the event horizon. lol!

[Questor 501]

Actually, Mith, I presented a perfectly logical explanation. The fact that you don't like tge implications of that explanation doesn't make it any less valid.

[Mith 0]

Actually, Mith, I presented a perfectly logical explanation. The fact that you don't like tge implications of that explanation doesn't make it any less valid.

 

 

 

What implications? I have very little opinion on the matter.

[Questor 501]

The fact that being unable to handle the shockwaves implies a very low hull/shield strength for the Delta Flyer. Most of the energy is directed 90 degrees from the direction of motion. Little goes backwards.

[Praeothmin 532]

The fact that being unable to handle the shockwaves implies a very low hull/shield strength for the Delta Flyer. Most of the energy is directed 90 degrees from the direction of motion. Little goes backwards.

 

 

 

Quick question though:

 

Were they fearing the effects of the shockwaves on the Delta Flyer or the underwater station?

[Questor 501]

Quick question though:

 

Were they fearing the effects of the shockwaves on the Delta Flyer or the underwater station?

 

 

 

The station they were trying to disable? The shockwaves might be an asset for that mission, as the compression waves would travel through most hulls into the air inside. Kinda like a "super sonic stun"

[Praeothmin 532]

The station they were trying to disable? The shockwaves might be an asset for that mission, as the compression waves would travel through most hulls into the air inside. Kinda like a "super sonic stun"

 

 

 

Just re-read the Memeory-Alpha description of the episode, and Voyager feared the shockwave would damage the refinery they wanted to protect, so that's why they rigged a Photorp asd a Depth Charge...

 

 

 

I think the simplest explanation is the one I offered:

 

Phasers cannot be lowered enough in power, Photorp with minimal AM can, and so it's the easiest way to go...

 

It's my story and I'm sticking with it...

[Tyralak 12,068]

Just re-read the Memeory-Alpha description of the episode, and Voyager feared the shockwave would damage the refinery they wanted to protect, so that's why they rigged a Photorp asd a Depth Charge...

 

 

 

I think the simplest explanation is the one I offered:

 

Phasers cannot be lowered enough in power, Photorp with minimal AM can, and so it's the easiest way to go...

 

It's my story and I'm sticking with it...

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

[Questor 501]

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

 

 

 

You know, except for the making sense part.

 

 

 

Photorps shockwave would not come only from the detonation, but from the simple passage through the water. Are they fired at appreciably lower speeds in this episode than normal? Do they supercavitate?

[Praeothmin 532]

You know, except for the making sense part.

 

 

 

Photorps shockwave would not come only from the detonation, but from the simple passage through the water. Are they fired at appreciably lower speeds in this episode than normal? Do they supercavitate?

 

 

 

It makes sens it you think about it...

 

 

 

The Torpedoes we modified to act as Depth charges, as in, they drop them in water, let them sink until they get close to a "sonar" contact, and then blow up.

 

Since Torpedoes can also vary their yields from "very powerful" to "knock a Comm array off without scratching hull" strength, then it's easy to understand why they would prefer to use the torpedoes...

 

Quite simple really...