In defense of TDiC

[Tyralak 12,068]

This is a repost of an article I wrote a while back. I still stand by it.

 

 

After looking back at years of denials, excuses and FUD from Warsies about why a canon episode, TDiC (DS9 "The Die is Cast") should be ignored, I can't find a scrap of logic in the claims. Let's look at a few myths, and then the facts.

 

Warsie myth # 1: "The visuals didn't show the kind of damage reported by the sensors."

 

The facts: The visuals show little of anything. They show a planet with gigantic ripples covering it's surface. Are we to expect close ups of the planet's surface to confirm what the sensors said and the limited visuals suggest? The show DID have a budget, after all.

 

Warsie myth # 2: "The Founders were broadcasting false sensor readings, and this shows the sensors data to be unreliable."

 

The facts: The false sensor data was ONLY in reference to life signs. Not to damage of the planet's surface. The false readings were to trick the Romulans and Cardassians into believing that the Founders were still on the planet. Once the Romulans discovered the ruse, there was no indication that the damage readings were also erroneous. We also have the inconvenient fact that the Romulans and Cardassians expected that kind of damage. That's the goal they were aiming for. When the damage reports came back, nobody was surprised. If this type of damage was outside the realm of possibility, the Romluans would have been tipped off immediately. If the Founders were broadcasting false damage readings, they would have been foolish to send out readings that were so far out of the realm of possibility. An example. A fighter aircraft fired a single missile at a target, say a small building, and the enemy had a way of sending back false damage pictures to surveillance satellites. The false imagery showed half the city destroyed by that missile. Does anyone really think the side that fired the missile would pat themselves on the back and say "Good job! That missile took out half the city!" when the missile only had the capability of destroying a small building? That wouldn't pass the test of logic, and neither does this Warsie myth.

 

Warsie myth # 3: "This doesn't fit with the rest of the combined canon as we see it."

 

The facts: Not only does this go against the rules of the debate, but it goes against several things that are indeed part of established canon. The rules of the debate say that with the exception of one-time devices that were destroyed and no longer exist,(Genesis, etc) you cannot try to exclude inconvenient evidence by trying to claim it doesn't fit with the rest of the series. Aside from that, it does fit with a part of the series that has been part of the canon since TOS: General Order 24. The destruction of the entire surface of a planet. A last resort.

 

Conclusion: As inconvenient to Warsies as TDiC is, it is still canon, and give the fact it's on screen, is actually a higher canon than the Warsie Bible, the ICS. The numbers in the ICS are given gospel status, even though there is still some dispute. Power levels for TNG ships should absolutely be reckoned, at least in part, by TDiC.

[StarDestroyerAvenger 2,147,483,647]

In defenes of TDiC

 

 

 

Please excuse me while I break out in uncontrollable laughter for a moment.

 

 

 

Now I know for a fucking fact that you're fucking delusional. A little atmospheric rippling obviously caused by the entry of the torpedoes does not mean the planet was leveled!

 

 

 

I'm about ready to fucking give up. You little Trekkies will do whatever you do no matter how hard I try to pound sense into you.

[Tyralak 12,068]

Please excuse me while I break out in uncontrollable laughter for a moment.

 

 

 

Now I know for a fucking fact that you're fucking delusional. A little atmospheric rippling obviously caused by the entry of the torpedoes does not mean the planet was leveled!

 

 

 

I'm about ready to fucking give up. You little Trekkies will do whatever you do no matter how hard I try to pound sense into you.

 

 

 

*sigh* do I have to post this for you? Oh, and read the rest of my essay, you ignorant prick. It's more than the atmospheric disturbance. Watch the clip again, and take into account the dialog.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQId0qZMe1o

[StarDestroyerAvenger 2,147,483,647]

Of course I know the fucking dialogue you ass stain. The Romulans and Cardassians are as retarded and delusional as you are. I don't see a planet that's 2/3s destroyed or even a quarter destroyed. I don't see any planetary damage whatsoever. Clearly it was false readings caused by the Founders sensor jammers.

 

 

 

Go back to SDN (I know you have a pathological fear of them because of how badly they tend to own Trekkies like you) and look at Wong's essay on planet killers, particularly on Lexx and the first ship His Divine Shadow used to totally fuck up a planet. When you totally fuck up a planet, THAT'S what it's supposed to look like.

[Tyralak 12,068]

You can't possibly be this stupid. You're repeating the same nonsense I just refuted. Let me quote it again for you, since you seem to have trouble comprehending.

 

 

 

Warsie myth # 2: "The Founders were broadcasting false sensor readings, and this shows the sensors data to be unreliable."

 

 

 

The facts: The false sensor data was ONLY in reference to life signs. Not to damage of the planet's surface. The false readings were to trick the Romulans and Cardassians into believing that the Founders were still on the planet. Once the Romulans discovered the ruse, there was no

 

indication that the damage readings were also erroneous. We also have the inconvenient fact that the Romulans and Cardassians expected that kind of damage. That's the goal they were aiming for. When the damage reports came back, nobody was surprised. If this type of damage was

 

outside the realm of possibility, the Romluans would have been tipped off immediately. If the Founders were broadcasting false damage readings, they would have been foolish to send out readings that were so far out of the realm of possibility. An example. A fighter aircraft fired a single missile at a target, say a small building, and the enemy had a way of sending back false damage pictures to surveillance satellites. The false imagery showed half the city destroyed by that

 

missile. Does anyone really think the side that fired the missile would pat themselves on the back and say "Good job! That missile took out half the city!" when the missile only had the capability of destroying a small building? That wouldn't pass the test of logic, and neither does

 

this Warsie myth.

[StarDestroyerAvenger 2,147,483,647]

You can't possibly be this stupid.

 

 

 

I should be asking you that. All you do is spout the same tired Trekkie bullshit nonstop. Why am I even arguing with you? I should just go back to SDN at least then we don't have to deal with the same repetitive bullshit from morons like you.

[Praeothmin 532]

I should just go back to SDN at least then we don't have to deal with the same repetitive bullshit from morons like you.

 

 

 

You're right, at least, at SDN, when someone shows you how wrong you are, you don't need to refute his arguments, you can just ignore them and say "It's been dealt with, ya Moron!".

 

The perfect cop out...

[StarDestroyerAvenger 2,147,483,647]

We practice all the standard debate rules at SDN. All I see is one long Trekkie wankfest in here.

[Kirk's Ripped Shirt 0]

Hi, I don't know what SDN is but I'm quite familiar with the episode in question, I have all of them on DVD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm also a college student, I'd rather not say what my major is but I like to think I'm at least intelligent enough to chime in. I can tell you it's a Bachelors of Science (BS) major so hopefully I know what I'm talking about

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway have any of you considered the possibility that those are underground explosions? It seems consistent with me if we were to assume that the torpedoes were to bury themselves deep underground, we wouldn't see any fireballs underground (BTW I read the other thread too but we would see a lot of shockwaves like this. Phaser fire might have the same effect too. I don't know if anybody saw the first Alien vs. Predator movie, but if you have you might remember the scene where they Predator aliens "drilled" into the Antartica. Well using that as an example if it really was that instantaneous we would see a lot of backpressure feedback and a lot of shockwaves from the resulting overpressure - a lot like what we see in The Die is Cast, actually.

[Mith 0]

Of course I know the fucking dialogue you ass stain. The Romulans and Cardassians are as retarded and delusional as you are.

 

 

 

Why? Because of the limitation of VFX?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see a planet that's 2/3s destroyed or even a quarter destroyed.

 

 

 

I also highly doubt this, given the fact that much time hadn't passed. Unless we assume that more time had passed and what we saw was only a portion of the bombadment, in which case it becomes more in line with what we saw as to the computer's estimation.

 

 

 

I don't see any planetary damage whatsoever. Clearly it was false readings caused by the Founders sensor jammers.

 

 

 

Based onw hat evidence? The Founders were only faking life sign readings. If anything, the image would have remained the same.

 

 

 

Go back to SDN (I know you have a pathological fear of them because of how badly they tend to own Trekkies like you) and look at Wong's essay on planet killers, particularly on Lexx and the first ship His Divine Shadow used to totally fuck up a planet. When you totally fuck up a planet, THAT'S what it's supposed to look like.

 

 

 

I prefer using a few meter long ship with a warhead the size of a small toy ball that's capable of consuming an entire planet within minutes. And of course, said ship carrying enough of said warhead to take out not just one, but multiple planets.

 

 

 

But I suppose when you work with such inferior technology as seen in Star Wars, you pretty much have to build a massve moon sized station to get the sort of bang to take out a planet.

[Questor 501]

Mith,

 

 

 

He was a troll that was vanquished months ago.

[enigma 521]

Mith,

 

 

 

He was a troll that was vanquished months ago.

 

 

 

Not vanquished but ignored.

[Tyralak 12,068]

More accurately, he ran off like a little bitch. Especially after Tamar Garish came and took a few whacks at him.

[Praeothmin 532]

Not vanquished but ignored.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, since he failed every single time he was asked to provide 1 single proof or logical argument in support of his claims, and since most of his answers were exactly like this one:

 

Go back to SDN (I know you have a pathological fear of them because of how badly they tend to own Trekkies like you

 

Then I think we can say that he was indeed vanquished, since he was unable to refute any argument at all...

 

 

 

He did indeed act a bit like Jason, except he was better at grammar...

[Tyralak 12,068]

I'm pretty damn sure SDA wasn't Jason. Jason is an idiot for sure, but he's not full of the vitriol that SDA was. Plus, I already think I know who it is. And it doesn't much matter. If he wants to come here under his usual name and debate us, fine. If he wants to come back with his "SDA" persona, that's fine too. He ran off like a little bitch when he was getting his ass beat. Tells you a lot about him. In contrast, Jason has shown marvelous tenacity and hasn't backed down from anything. You have to hand it to him for that.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

I prefer using a few meter long ship with a warhead the size of a small toy ball that's capable of consuming an entire planet within minutes. And of course, said ship carrying enough of said warhead to take out not just one, but multiple planets.

 

 

 

Galaxy Gun can destroy entire planets from across the galaxy, Sun Cruhser has its QC armor that allowed it to survive a glancing blow from the prototype DS Super Laser and has torps that can blows stars up, and its the size of a star fighter, Dark Saber (Striped down version of DS with just the Super Laser).

 

 

 

B

ut I suppose when you work with such inferior technology as seen in Star Wars, you pretty much have to build a massve moon sized station to get the sort of bang to take out a planet.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I must have missed all those times where the Federation and other AQ etc. and the Borg just blew up tons of planets the same why the DS did, and if I recall correctly the DS SL calcs were 20 million yottatons for when it fired on Aldderan.

[Praeothmin 532]

I'm sorry, I must have missed all those times where the Federation and other AQ etc. and the Borg just blew up tons of planets the same why the DS did, and if I recall correctly the DS SL calcs were 20 million yottatons for when it fired on Aldderan.

 

 

 

Although, according to the novel "Death Star", the DS actually destroyed a lot of the planet, but "shifted" most of it's mass into Hyperspace.

 

Which still doesn't change the facts that it can punch through any planetary shields and destroy a planet with one shot, but I'm just saying...

[Mith 0]

Galaxy Gun can destroy entire planets from across the galaxy,

 

 

 

Which requires...

 

 

 

1) charted hyperspace lanes

 

 

 

2) the enemy being unable to penetrate the projetile's defenses

 

 

 

3) A massive fucking ship

 

 

 

Sun Cruhser has its QC armor that allowed it to survive a glancing blow from the prototype DS Super Laser and has torps that can blows stars up, and its the size of a star fighter, Dark Saber (Striped down version of DS with just the Super Laser).

 

 

 

And is now loss forever and was pretty much a WTF technology given how remarkably stupid it was in context.

 

 

 

B

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I must have missed all those times where the Federation and other AQ etc. and the Borg just blew up tons of planets the same why the DS did, and if I recall correctly the DS SL calcs were 20 million yottatons for when it fired on Aldderan.

 

 

 

Ah yes, the tons of planets. Like the two whole planets it blew up before a one-man fighter fired two proton torpedoes up its tailpipe and turned it into a bright ball of plasma? And again, I must ask how this has to do with the fact that the Federation still doesn't need to rely upon one super-ship/station-that-will-never-be-seen-again and instead has basically torpedo versions that can work on any ship and be easily deployed fleet wide.

[Praeothmin 532]

I know this has been "dormant" in quite a while, but I just wanted to add a bit of information...

The defenders of the GT Turbolasers in SW often use the MF's angular motion after a TL hit (hit that clearly came from the top of the ISD, thus a HTL) as proof that HTLs are in the GT, yet they willingly ignore at least two similar examples for Star Trek...

 

In ST Voyager "Scorpion", species 8472 hits Voyager with a Biobeam while Voyager is running away at impulse (thus, no warp fields, thus no mass lightening, so VG is 700 000 metric tons)...

The hit spins Voyager almost two full rotations before the ship can retake control and stabilize, and the hit took VG's shields down only to 82% from a direct hit:

If the MF hit with a massless beam equals single digit GT, imagine what king of power this one had...

 

In ST IV: TUC, a Klingon BoP gets hit by a TOS Photon Torpedo, and lo and behold (starting at 5:23):

The hits clearly impart angular momentum to the BoP, a 110 meter long, most likely over 100 000 metric tons if the older E-Nil from TOS was 300 000 metric tons...

Again, these show high powered weapons in ST...

 

Oh, and the BoP model that needed at least 5 of these torpedoes to destroy it?

Got killed with one in ST:Generations but the E-D (at 1:50):

 

If you add the explosions that are visible from orbit in TNG's "Skin of Evil" and you have highly powerful weapons for ST, and even if all the wanktastic calculations from SW were accepted, ST would still not be a pushover...

[Praeothmin 532]

At SFJ.net, JediMasterSpock did a rough analysis and calculation of the Voyager impact:

From JMS at SFJ:

For a variety of reasons, it is best to model neglecting any inertial dampening first, and see what exactly we are dealing with. Assume that the biobeam is hitting an inert object, and that Voyager does not begin to stabilize until after the initial shot.

I would take Voyager as a uniform 150x50x341m ellipsoid (it isn't, of course, but we're ballparking here.) This gives our moment of inertia as 3.5-19.4 x 10^12 kg m^2 depending on axis of rotation. 2/3 of one rotation is roughly 2 radians per second, meaning that we have a rotational energy of 7-41 terajoules and an angular momentum of 7-41 x10^12 kg m^2/s.

Exactly what that means in terms of beam energy is in turn dependent on both what the beam is composed of, where it impacted, whether the beam was reflected or absorbed, and at what angle the beam impacted (and, if reflected, what angle(s) it was reflected at). It is highly sensitive to all of those figures, adjusting further by several orders of magnitude depending on these parameters.

For example, if the beam was comprised of photons, flipped Voyager nose-over-tail (i.e., about a line drawn through the front of the nacelles), and impacted ~41 meters from the center at a perpendicular angle, my napkin says "3e20 J," which should be right if I haven't made any silly mistakes, the equivalent of about 71 gigatons

Go here:

You'll find interesting effects.
Most of the times, the Phaser fire passes right through enemy ships without even slowing, or apparently losing any strength.
Now, on SDN, when it happened with asteroids, they used this to mean that the actual power of the beam was more then the required amount of power necessary to "vaporize" said asteroid.
Well, since we know that Hand phasers in ST can heat metals over 2000 degrees Celcius (Nuranium), and that Hand Phasers cannot destroy Capital ships, then that means that to go through a starship hull, you'd need a lot of energy, and even more if your beam goes through without losing any strength.
Also, at around 3:10, you'll notice the two Miranda vessels accompanying the Defiant.
The first one get destroyed when a torpedo impacts it and makes it spin, while the second one is hit by Phaser or Cardassian beams and the beam has a similar effect.
It first passes through, and in turn eventually starts spinning the Miranda.

Battle of Chin'Toka, First

In this clip we see one torpedo impart angular momentum to one of the Cardassian defense platforms.
Scaling grossly from the clip, these platforms are at least 3/4 of the Defiant's length, so around 80 to 100 meters, depending on which Defiant's scaling you use.
They probably mass half as much, so in order to impart angular momentum, you probably need triple digit Megatons, or single digit Gigaton.

At 1:03, we see a Platform beam hit the Defiant, and once again impart angular momentum.

Second Battle of Chin'Toka

At 1:36, a pair of Quantum torpedoes hit a Breen vessel ( I believe they are around 300 meters long, so they could be equal in mass to Voyager, about 700 000 metric tons) and, again, impart angular momentum.

All these battles have shown us varying firepower (which is normal because we know canonically of the variable yields of ST weapons).
From what I've seen, I'm confident that these battles show firepowers ranging from low Megatons to low Gigatons.