The latest in debauchery

[enigma 521]

I'm a little gay fag that likes to take it up the ass

[enigma 521]

I'm a little gay fag that likes to take it up the ass

[InvaderSkooj 1]

One on One. ST ship attacking a planet with one MK XXXIII. Later same scenario but with a MK XXXIV.

 

 

 

The latest Bolos were planetary weapons platform, designed so that only one Bolo was needed to defend the planet.

No this is UFP versus the Concordiat of Man, ships and dudues in spandex versus ships, bolos, orbital defense platforms, power armored infantry, hovertanks, nuke spam, the works. By act of Q, every-time the UFP opens channels to surrender or otherwise communicate, all they see is some melconian making disparaging statements about peoples mothers.

[enigma 521]

I'm a little gay fag that likes to take it up the ass

[Praeothmin 532]

In that case, we are lacking information about the Melkonian fleet size, its ships' strengths and weaknesses, and so on.

 

For example, if the Melkonians have over, say, 30 000 ships, and even their weakest ships are more then a match for the latest Bolos, then yes, the Federation goes home crying for mommy after a grueling war...

 

 

 

 

 

One on one, Bolo vs ST ship, I believe any but the weakest ST ships stand a chance.

 

For example, the latest Bolo would clearly overwhelm the NX, an Oberth, a Runabout, and perhaps even a Miranda-class ship.

 

But all other ship classes would win the engagement, their level of damage depending on the class...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

In that case, we are lacking information about the Melkonian fleet size, its ships' strengths and weaknesses, and so on.

 

For example, if the Melkonians have over, say, 30 000 ships, and even their weakest ships are more then a match for the latest Bolos, then yes, the Federation goes home crying for mommy after a grueling war..

Strength of the Melconians is irrelevant they've been replaced

 

 

 

 

 

One on one, Bolo vs ST ship, I believe any but the weakest ST ships stand a chance.

 

For example, the latest Bolo would clearly overwhelm the NX, an Oberth, a Runabout, and perhaps even a Miranda-class ship.

 

But all other ship classes would win the engagement, their level of damage depending on the class...

 

Based on what? Bolos are shielded and have AI controlled point defense. And once you get through the battlescreen their armor can take a few shots from their main guns. Soon as I get done with my homework I'll dig up some quotes

[enigma 521]

In that case, we are lacking information about the Melkonian fleet size, its ships' strengths and weaknesses, and so on.

 

For example, if the Melkonians have over, say, 30 000 ships, and even their weakest ships are more then a match for the latest Bolos, then yes, the Federation goes home crying for mommy after a grueling war...

 

 

 

 

 

One on one, Bolo vs ST ship, I believe any but the weakest ST ships stand a chance.

 

For example, the latest Bolo would clearly overwhelm the NX, an Oberth, a Runabout, and perhaps even a Miranda-class ship.

 

But all other ship classes would win the engagement, their level of damage depending on the class...

 

 

 

The Melconians were technologically inferior compared to the Concordiat but they made up in numbers. Even the Melconians' best Bolo analogue (They managed to steal plans of the Bolos but were unable to completely reverse engineer it. Comparing the Melconians' version of a Bolo to the real thing is like comparing a 5 year old limbless kid with Down's Syndrome (aka Jason) to Batman) could not defeat a Bolo.

 

 

 

A UFP starship of any class is going to have trouble going up against a Concordiat warship which is basically a fully uplinked crewed Bolo on fucking steroids.

 

 

 

The UFP has to do the same thing as the Melconians and spam ships against the Concordiat.

 

 

 

A UFP ship in orbit of a planet with a late model Bolo will have a fight on it's hands. The Bolo's have FTL sensors so they can track the starship and as all Bolos do, will target the starship's warp core and whene it is in range will fire it's HellRails (2 of them. Total yeild of 185MT. 90MT plus 2.5MT precursor laser times two HellRails.) Then add the two 200cm Hellbores (5MT\s with a four second cycle equals 30MT yield. Multiply with two and you get 60MT). So when it targets the starship and fires all of it's main weapons a total yield of 245MT will hit the engineering section with pinpoint accuracy. That is just up against a MK XXXIV. 90MT per shot by the MK XXXIII's three Hellbores can also deliver a gut punch but one that the starship could possibly survive. But since the Bolo isn't just going to sit still and will continue to fire the captain of that starship will have to do some fancy footwork to survive.

 

 

 

And if you think that firing torps at it is a good idea the remember that the Bolo has PD capabilities.

[Praeothmin 532]

Strength of the Melconians is irrelevant they've been replaced

 

 

 

Ok, so Starfleet takes the place of the Melkonians in trying to eradicate the humans protected by the Bolos?

 

 

 

 

 

Based on what? Bolos are shielded and have AI controlled point defense. And once you get through the battlescreen their armor can take a few shots from their main guns. Soon as I get done with my homework I'll dig up some quotes

 

 

 

So are ST ships, and they too can take multiple shots from their main guns when unshielded, and a lot more when shielded.

 

But I would indeed like a few quotes about the shields, because I don't recall them mentioned in the articles you and Questor linked...

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Just re-read the articles in question, and it does mention the shields and armor, but while the armor is a bit more explicit quantitatively, the shield capabilities are a bit vague:

 

the Mark XIX was the first Bolo to mount mono-permeable, anti-kinetic battle screen as its first line of defense against projectile weapons and to incorporate the ability to convert a percentage of most types of hostile energy fire into useful power.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Ok, so Starfleet takes the place of the Melkonians in trying to eradicate the humans protected by the Bolos?

Its not just bolos but yes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So are ST ships, and they too can take multiple shots from their main guns when unshielded, and a lot more when shielded.

Yes except they dont act anything like you would a megaton weapon to act

 

But I would indeed like a few quotes about the shields, because I don't recall them mentioned in the articles you and Questor linked...

Not quite done with homework, I'll be able to post quotes up the wazoo later

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Just re-read the articles in question, and it does mention the shields and armor, but while the armor is a bit more explicit quantitatively, the shield capabilities are a bit vague:

 

 

 

Their Battlescreens are a bit weird in how they work, for one thing they can absorb energy weapons fire and use it as a powersource

[sonofccn 0]

[sonofccn 0]

Hi everyone!

 

Assuming the information in the link Enigma gave is accurate the following can be learned or estimated.

 

1. The series 34 bolo didn’t enter service until 3378 or so while this war is set in the year 3303. If Wikipedia is to be believed the 33 didn’t enter service until at least the 3350’s either

 

2. The hellrail cannon was designed to combat Melconian Class Three Dreadnaught and claims that with a 90 megaton yield it can punch through it twice implying the Dreadnaught, considered a tough nut to crack 70 years after the time the current war will be fought, maxes out at 45 megaton instantaneous firepower shielding.

 

3. We can also reasonably conclude, assuming again this data is accurate, that the mark 33 firepower present at an orbital target is below 45 megatons. If we assume for instance the 200cm Hellbore yield is a flat 5 megatons with a four second “recharge†we drop its output to a “measly†fifteen and prevent the paradox of the 33’s instantly killing a ship the Concordiat required a speciale modified version to engage.

 

4. As a newcomer to this hive of villainy I don’t know how powerful you consider photon torpedoes however assuming the above is true as long as they are mid level double digit or better the advantage swings towards the Federation on a unit per unit basis. A bolo series 33 or less will almost certainly strike with only a fraction of a photon torpedo’s strength and will require multiple strikes to break through a starships shields

[Questor 501]

4. As a newcomer to this hive of villainy I don’t know how powerful you consider photon torpedoes however assuming the above is true as long as they are mid level double digit or better the advantage swings towards the Federation on a unit per unit basis. A bolo series 33 or less will almost certainly strike with only a fraction of a photon torpedo’s strength and will require multiple strikes to break through a starships shields

 

 

 

Photon torpedoes are quite variable.

 

 

 

You will find people advocating anything from low ton to multi-gigaton. And they can all provide evidence.

 

 

 

I have, for example provided (for humorous purposes) a evidence suggesting 10-ton to 10 kt yield.

[enigma 521]

Hi everyone!

 

Assuming the information in the link Enigma gave is accurate the following can be learned or estimated.

 

1. The series 34 bolo didn’t enter service until 3378 or so while this war is set in the year 3303. If Wikipedia is to be believed the 33 didn’t enter service until at least the 3350’s either

 

2. The hellrail cannon was designed to combat Melconian Class Three Dreadnaught and claims that with a 90 megaton yield it can punch through it twice implying the Dreadnaught, considered a tough nut to crack 70 years after the time the current war will be fought, maxes out at 45 megaton instantaneous firepower shielding.

 

3. We can also reasonably conclude, assuming again this data is accurate, that the mark 33 firepower present at an orbital target is below 45 megatons. If we assume for instance the 200cm Hellbore yield is a flat 5 megatons with a four second “recharge†we drop its output to a “measly†fifteen and prevent the paradox of the 33’s instantly killing a ship the Concordiat required a speciale modified version to engage.

 

4. As a newcomer to this hive of villainy I don’t know how powerful you consider photon torpedoes however assuming the above is true as long as they are mid level double digit or better the advantage swings towards the Federation on a unit per unit basis. A bolo series 33 or less will almost certainly strike with only a fraction of a photon torpedo’s strength and will require multiple strikes to break through a starships shields

 

 

 

 

 

1. 3378 is post 3303.

 

 

 

You'll realize that the Bolos are really really good at concentrating their firepower to a single target? We are talking about close to a quarter gigaton at a specific area of the ship which would be the engineering area as Bolos (AFAIK) always target the power sources of the enemy ships. I don't think the Fed starships are able to withstand a virtual pinpoint attack.

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, to gain some victories the UFP should go for mass attacks and avoid fighting one on one.

[sonofccn 0]

1. 3378 is post 3303.

 

 

 

You'll realize that the Bolos are really really good at concentrating their firepower to a single target? We are talking about close to a quarter gigaton at a specific area of the ship which would be the engineering area as Bolos (AFAIK) always target the power sources of the enemy ships. I don't think the Fed starships are able to withstand a virtual pinpoint attack.

 

 

 

As I mentioned before, to gain some victories the UFP should go for mass attacks and avoid fighting one on one.

Enigma,

 

 

 

1. Yes 3378 is post 3303 but let me ask you this. If the Star Trek setting was post Dominion War would you feel justified using a 29th century spaceship as a benchmark of firepower/ability? InvaderSkooj set the date in the early days of the in universe “Last war†post 3303. Now if he meant to include 33’s and 34’s than I am sorry for misinterpreting his statement but extending the range seventy years doesn’t strike me as in the “early days†as the OP stated.

 

 

 

2. The problem lay in what yield are you assuming for a photon torpedo? I tend to lean towards 100-150 megatons which places the quarter gigaton salvo on par with a torp or two, very unlikely to punch through on its first shot. If we lean the other way and go with the TNG manual which gives a maximum yield of 64 megatons in an omnidirectional blast reducing the effective yield to a measly 32 at best it would still take more than one torp to drop the shields on any halfway decent 24th century starship and would still grant the average fed ship a tougher target than the mark three dreadnought the 34’s were built to stop. The 34 however would hit the with force of roughly eight of such torpedoes and would instanta kill said vessel.

 

 

 

3. I am making comparisons on a unit per unit basis due to the lack of numbers present. I know the Federation should able to field thousands of ships, some of which are cannon fodder relics, but I don’t know how many bolo’s there are or the extent of other human forces.

[sonofccn 0]

Photon torpedoes are quite variable.

 

 

 

You will find people advocating anything from low ton to multi-gigaton. And they can all provide evidence.

 

 

 

I have, for example provided (for humorous purposes) a evidence suggesting 10-ton to 10 kt yield.

 

Questor,

 

 

 

True, very true. I’m not really one who would want to “shake the boat†as it were. I’m more the accept the hand I’m dealt and play it through sort. I was just curious what, if the board has it at all, what the “accepted†firepower was.

[enigma 521]

Enigma,

 

 

 

1. Yes 3378 is post 3303 but let me ask you this. If the Star Trek setting was post Dominion War would you feel justified using a 29th century spaceship as a benchmark of firepower/ability? InvaderSkooj set the date in the early days of the in universe “Last war†post 3303. Now if he meant to include 33’s and 34’s than I am sorry for misinterpreting his statement but extending the range seventy years doesn’t strike me as in the “early days†as the OP stated.

 

 

 

I missed the part about the early "days or years" of the war and just saw Post 3303. Around the time of the Last War then the Concordiat would have fielded MK XXXIs. This changes everything since these Bolos were drastically weaker than later versions. These Bolos only had one 110cm Hellbores with a yield of 2.75MT\s.

 

 

 

2. The problem lay in what yield are you assuming for a photon torpedo? I tend to lean towards 100-150 megatons which places the quarter gigaton salvo on par with a torp or two, very unlikely to punch through on its first shot. If we lean the other way and go with the TNG manual which gives a maximum yield of 64 megatons in an omnidirectional blast reducing the effective yield to a measly 32 at best it would still take more than one torp to drop the shields on any halfway decent 24th century starship and would still grant the average fed ship a tougher target than the mark three dreadnought the 34’s were built to stop. The 34 however would hit the with force of roughly eight of such torpedoes and would instanta kill said vessel.

 

 

 

Going by the tech manual (even though in the shows the yield shown are quite less than stated in the manual), yes the quantum torps are maxed at 64MT omnidirectional and yes only 32MT is actually used. Photon torpedoes yield is I think much less than quantums.

 

 

 

You'll understand that unlike the Bolos, Federation starships (not including the new Star Trek universe) have no point defence capabilities. Bolos can track the torps and shoot it down while all the captain on the starship can do is say "BRACE FOR IMPACT!" and pray that the shields hold. The starship could fire more than one torp in quick succession but the Bolo will not be staying put. It'll keep on moving and shooting down the torps at the same time. For MK XXXI, there is not much they can do to orbiting starships as 2.75MT isn't much (unless there are those that claim that torp yield are in the high kiloton\low megaton, then the Bolo's Hellbore is up to the task. For the MK XXXIIIs and the XXXIVs would have an easier time defending and attacking as the 33's have the threee 220cm Hellbores than take out three torps at the same time, more if the torps enter the atmosphere as the Bolo will use it's secondary weapons to take out any other torps. 34's would have an easier time despite one less 220cm Hellbore but it can offset that by using it's Hellrails to attack the starship while at the same time knock down any torps.

 

 

 

But again, just by going by the scenario given, the UFP will have an easier time since they are not attacking their foe at it's peak. To equalize the battlegrounds we'd have to use the Post TOS\Pre TNG era Federation to the 3303 era Concordiat as around 3303 the Condordiat was fifty odd years from using the 33's and seventy odd years away from using their 34's.

 

 

 

3. I am making comparisons on a unit per unit basis due to the lack of numbers present. I know the Federation should able to field thousands of ships, some of which are cannon fodder relics, but I don’t know how many bolo’s there are or the extent of other human forces.

 

 

 

Just by googling, the Concordiat planned to deploy 24 brigades of MK 34s. This does not take into account all the older Marks. Not quite sure how many in a brigade. All I got was between 2,500 and 5,000. That'll put the number of 34's at between 60,000 and 120,000 respectively.

 

 

 

As for Starfleet ship count. I understood it to be between 3,000 to 5,000 combat capable starships. But it would be less post Dominion War.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Enigma,

 

 

 

1. Yes 3378 is post 3303 but let me ask you this. If the Star Trek setting was post Dominion War would you feel justified using a 29th century spaceship as a benchmark of firepower/ability? InvaderSkooj set the date in the early days of the in universe “Last war†post 3303. Now if he meant to include 33’s and 34’s than I am sorry for misinterpreting his statement but extending the range seventy years doesn’t strike me as in the “early days†as the OP stated.

The war lasted over 200 years I'm allowing MkXXXIIIs

 

 

 

2. The problem lay in what yield are you assuming for a photon torpedo? I tend to lean towards 100-150 megatons which places the quarter gigaton salvo on par with a torp or two, very unlikely to punch through on its first shot. If we lean the other way and go with the TNG manual which gives a maximum yield of 64 megatons in an omnidirectional blast reducing the effective yield to a measly 32 at best it would still take more than one torp to drop the shields on any halfway decent 24th century starship and would still grant the average fed ship a tougher target than the mark three dreadnought the 34’s were built to stop. The 34 however would hit the with force of roughly eight of such torpedoes and would instanta kill said vessel.

Ummm yeah I can just pull numbers out of my ass too, Well not the TM ones of course

 

 

 

3. I am making comparisons on a unit per unit basis due to the lack of numbers present. I know the Federation should able to field thousands of ships, some of which are cannon fodder relics, but I don’t know how many bolo’s there are or the extent of other human forces.

 

Thing is they never do

[enigma 521]

The war lasted over 200 years I'm allowing MkXXXIIIs

 

 

 

How about the XXXIVs? They would have been deployed well within the first half of the war.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

I missed the part about the early "days or years" of the war and just saw Post 3303. Around the time of the Last War then the Concordiat would have fielded MK XXXIs. This changes everything since these Bolos were drastically weaker than later versions. These Bolos only had one 110cm Hellbores with a yield of 2.75MT\s.

I guess I could have been more specific Old Soldiers timeframe so MKXXXIIIs

[InvaderSkooj 1]

How about the XXXIVs? They would have been deployed well within the first half of the war.

Dont need them, and I hate Mk34s, that and there's more than 1 Mk34

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Twelve surface-to-space missiles launched on pillars of fire. Their target raced for safety as rapidly as its internal grav compensators permitted, so fast its bow glowed cherry red, but it never had a chance. The SSMs' conventional boosters blew them free of their silos, and they tilted, holding lock, and then went suddenly to full power on their own counter-grav. They overtook their victim just over three hundred kilometers downrange at an altitude of thirty-three thousand meters, and twelve twenty-kiloton warheads detonated as one. Bolo p.87

Backwater base defended by nuclear missiles, assault boat equipped with inertial compensator

 

 

 

The armored hatches of Nike's missile deck sprang open, and a cloud of missiles arced upward. In twelve seconds, each of her forty vertical launch system cells sent four heavy missiles shrieking downrange; Bolo p.91

MkXXIII bolo capable of launching 40 missiles every 3 seconds

 

 

 

The relief force from Santa Cruz dropped out of hyper in a single, perfectly coordinated transition, and tactical displays aboard the Navy task force's warships began blinking alive with a rash of ominous red icons. Commodore Selkirk's entire combat strength consisted of one four-ship battlecruiser division and one carrier, supported by eight heavy cruisers, nine light cruisers, and twelve destroyers. From the reports Chartres Near-Space Command had managed to get out before the subspace communications satellites were taken out, he already knew that even after the attackers' losses against Chartres' orbital defenses—which had not been insubstantial—he still faced six Melconian battleships, five battlecruisers, and twenty screening "fists." Like the Melconian ground unit of the same name, a naval "fist" consisted of three ships, in this case a heavy cruiser supported by a light cruiser and a destroyer. The comparative number of hulls—thirty-four human vessels opposed to sixty-nine Melconian ships—was bad enough. The tonnage differential was worse . . . much worse.

 

 

 

Despite that, Selkirk had certain offsetting advantages. One was that unlike the deep-space arrays which had given Chartres two full days of warning before the Melconians' arrival, even a battleship's detection range against a unit approaching through hyper was severely limited. The Melconian CO had been given less than four hours' warning before Selkirk's ships came piling out of hyper, and his combat strength was still out of position. Another advantage was that every one of Selkirk's ships possessed a fully self-aware AI . . . and that those ships' command crews were neurally linked with them. They literally thought and fought at the same hyper-heuristic speed as Bolos. Bolo p.141-2

Some naval stuff, orbital defenses, FTL sensors, Ship AI

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They should have tried to nail Indomitable before she launched, she thought. And they're about to find out that they just wasted their entire initial salvo.

 

 

 

Hypervelocity countermissiles were already spitting outward from the Bolos. Designed for planetary combat, they moved slowly compared to the deep-space weapons charging to destroy the transports, but "slowly" was a purely relative term. They moved quickly enough when they were directed by a Bolo's targeting and computational systems, and groups of them relentlessly bracketed each incoming missile, boring in through defensive electronic countermeasures.

 

 

 

One-by-one, the Melconian missiles were picked off far short of attack range. Only fourteen got through the countermissile interception envelope, and thirteen of those were picked off by infinite repeater fire far short of their targets. Only one got close enough to actually detonate against the battle screen protecting its intended victim, and that battle screen—reinforced by the full power of the Bolo on the opposite side of the transport's hull—held.

 

 

 

And while those missiles were attacking, the fighters from Indomitable flung themselves upon their leviathan foes.

 

 

 

Twenty of them died before they got into engagement range. It would have been even worse, Maneka thought, sickened by the carnage, if the Melconians had held back that initial missile launch, targeted it on the fighters they ought to have known had to be coming. But twenty-five percent losses before the surviving fighter pilots even crossed the missile envelope was quite bad enough.

 

 

 

The sixty survivors ignored the destroyers shooting at them. Instead, they charged straight towards the cruisers. Close-in weapons opened up on them, but the fighters bored in grimly, holding their fire. The fleet little vessels carried plasma torpedoes—triple-barreled, short-ranged weapons with an even heavier punch than Benjy's Hellbore, but slow-firing. The launchers took long enough to recharge that each fighter would be able to fire only a single salvo per firing pass. But their other energy weapons were intended for dogfighting against other fighters, too light to significantly damage something as heavily armored as a warship, and the pilots were determined to make their single launch each count.

 

 

 

Half of them died before they reached the range they sought and salvoed their torpedoes, but unlike missiles, plasma torpedoes were light-speed weapons. They ripped in, impossible to intercept, and all four of the heavy cruisers and one of the light cruisers disappeared in the hellish glare of impacting plasma. Each torpedo was the equivalent of a shaped-charge fusion warhead, slamming its target with a megaton awl of brimstone, and battle screen failed and armor and hull plating vaporized as those man-made thunderbolts disemboweled their targets.

 

 

 

One of the three surviving light cruisers was severely damaged, staggering sideways in a shower of shattered debris and the telltale shroud of venting atmosphere. Her emissions signature flickered uncertainly, and her drive field went down completely, but her consorts had been luckier. The fighter group targeted on one of them had taken murderous casualties on its way in. Only two of its pilots had survived to fire, and their launch sequence had been badly desynchronized. The plasma torpedoes came in as separate, individual attacks, without the focus and precise timing which had killed the cruiser's fellows, and the ship's battle screen managed to deflect most of their effectiveness. She was hurt, but not badly, and she continued to belch missiles at the transports. Bolo p.143

Naval combat, the efficiency of point defense, MT shaped charge lightspeed AS weapons

 

 

 

The carrier's AI altered course, dodging hard, but her evasion options were too limited. The geometry was against her, and although her light shipboard weapons fired desperately, carriers weren't supposed to get this close to enemy main combatants. They were supposed to operate under the cover and protection of an entire task force, providing a fighter umbrella to operate at ranges of up to several light-hours from their flight decks, or on independent operations at extreme range from anything but the enemy's fighters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She was too far ahead of Tannenberg and the other transports for any of the Bolos to engage the cruiser before impact, and yet it was so agonizingly close. She was barely a hundred kilometers outside Benjy's engagement range when the damaged cruiser slammed through her battle screens like a quarter-million-ton hammer and both ships vanished in a kinetic fireball brighter than the system's sun.

Scale of naval combat

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maneka felt her face locking in a snarl of triumph as the cruiser spat death at her. The battle screen which now protected the transports was Bolo battle screen, designed to deflect the fire of Benjy's own main armament at anything beyond point-blank range, and it sneered at the lesser energy weapons mounted by a mere light cruiser. Benjy's screen brushed the long-range fire aside almost contemptuously. Then his main turret traversed slightly and fired once.

 

 

 

When the Mark XXVIII had first been introduced, its main armament had been equivalent to that mounted in the Concordiat Navy's current-generation ships-of-the-line. Technology had moved on since then, into newer, deadlier, more powerful weaponry, but even today, nothing lighter than a battlecruiser—and precious few of them—mounted anything approaching the lethality of his 110-centimeter Hellbore. Certainly no light cruiser did . . . and none of them had been designed to survive its fury.

 

 

 

Benjy's target shattered, blowing apart and then, abruptly, vaporizing as the ship's antimatter powerplant's containment fields went down. The fierce, blinding flash of the fireball polarized Benjy's direct visual display, and Maneka heard her own soprano shriek of triumph as the cruiser disappeared.

Relationship between bolos and naval ships

[sonofccn 0]

The war lasted over 200 years I'm allowing MkXXXIIIs

 

 

 

Ummm yeah I can just pull numbers out of my ass too, Well not the TM ones of course

 

 

 

Thing is they never do

 

InvaderSkooj,

 

 

 

1. Well I am of course sorry for misconstruing your statement. I misunderstood.

 

 

 

 

 

2. I have treated photon torpedoes as a variable and have inquired what the board considers the “average†yield. I have no wish to bog down this thread with debates on weapons calcs but since you asked here supports yields needed to combat a Bolo based upon the data Enigma provided.

 

 

 

3. I submit this as counter evidence from the shooting script of When it rains (DS9 season 7):

 

 

 

ROSS

 

Well, Gentlemen, it would seem

 

that the Klingon fleet is the

 

only thing standing between us

 

and the Dominion.

 

 

 

ROMULAN

 

(under his breath)

 

What have we come to... ?

 

 

 

Martok shoots him a look

 

 

 

MARTOK

 

By tomorrow, we'll have eleven

 

hundred Klingon vessels ready for

 

deployment.

 

 

 

DEEP SPACE NINE: "When it Rains... " - REV. 03/02/99 - TEASER 3.

 

 

 

2 CONTINUED: (2)

 

 

 

ROMULAN

 

(dismissive)

 

With the Breen, the Cardassians

 

and the Jem'Hadar you're still

 

outnumbered twenty-to-one.

 

 

 

We can conclude from this that the Klingon navy after two years of heavy fighting, in addition to fighting the cardassians before going to war with the Dominion, could still field at the very least more than a thousand warships. We can also conclude that the Breen-Cardassian-Dominion could field roughly 22 thousand vessels against whom the F-K-R force managed to ultimately defeat implying they were not heavily out numbered. If pressed the Federation can indeed unleash thousands of vessels, the only real argument is how many of these are Mirandas pulled out of cold storage vs Galaxy class or Sovereigns.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

She tried not to think about the odds. Sixty Surturs and twice that many Fenrises would have been heavy odds for a battalion of modern Bolos; for the Thirty-Ninth, they were impossible, and every human and Bolo in the Battalion, from the Colonel down, knew it.

 

 

 

"Melconian warships are entering range of the planet," Benjy announced, and Maneka responded with a jerky nod.

 

 

 

Commodore Selkirk's task force had paid the price of its gallantry. Not a single one of his ships had survived, but they'd ripped the guts out of the Melconian fleet before they died. None of the Puppy battleships or battlecruisers remained. Neither did any of their heavy cruisers, but nine light cruisers and eleven destroyers had been screaming towards Chartres at maximum for over twelve minutes now. She'd hoped the Battalion would win the race, get to grips with the Puppies' ground forces before their surviving fleet units could intervene, but the numbers blinked on Benjy's plot in grim confirmation that they would not.

 

 

 

The missile batteries the Melconians had dug in at the heart of their ground enclave vomited fire, and high-trajectory missiles rained down on the Battalion. More fell like cosmic flails, fired from the approaching warships to support the ground-based systems. Their flight profiles gave the Battalion easy intercept solutions, but they'd never actually been intended to get through in the first place. Their function was solely to saturate the Bolos' defenses while the real killers broke through at lower altitudes. bolo p.149

Scale

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The atmospheric shock waves thousands of missiles generated at that velocity were like a giant hammer, smashing everything in their path into splinters, and when they reached the Battalion, it would be even worse. At their speed, even Bolos would have only tiny fractions of a second to engage them, and their defenses were already effectively saturated by the ongoing high-trajectory bombardment. Bolo p.151

point defense efficiency

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And so what might have been no more than a border incident became something more dreadful than the galaxy had ever imagined. The Concordiat never produced enough of its superior weapons to defeat Melcon outright, but it produced more than enough to prevent the Empire from defeating it. And if the Concordiat's deep strikes prevented the Empire from mobilizing its full reserves against Human-held worlds, it couldn't stop the Melconian Navy from achieving a numerical superiority sufficient to offset its individual technical inferiorities. War raged across the light-centuries, and every clash was worse than the last as the two mightiest militaries in galactic history lunged at one another, each certain the other was the aggressor and each convinced its only options were victory or annihilation. The door to madness was opened by desperation, and the planning study known as Case Ragnarok was converted into something very different. It may be the Melconians had conducted a similar study—certainly their operations suggested they had—but no one will ever know, for the Melconian records, if any, no longer exist.

 

 

 

Yet the Human records do, and they permit no self-deception. Operation Ragnarok was launched only after the Melconian "demonstration strike" on New Vermont in 3349 killed every one of the planet's billion inhabitants, but it was a deliberately planned strategy which had been developed at least twelve standard years earlier. It began at the orders of the Concordiat Senate . . . and ended one hundred and seventy-two standard years later, under the orders of God alone knew what fragments of local authority. Bolo p.163-4

Scope of the war

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Team Shiva always had the point, because it was the best there was. Bolo XXXIII/D-1097-SHV was the last Bolo built by Bolo Prime on the moon known as Luna before the Melconian world burner blotted Terra—and Luna—away forever, and no one else in XLIII Corps could match his experience . . . except, perhaps, his Human Commander. Newly enlisted Private Diego Harigata had been sixteen years old when Terra died; now Major Harigata was forty-nine, with thirty-two years of combat experience. All of them had been aboard the Bolo whose call sign was "Shiva," and man and machine had fought their way together across half a hundred planets. Bolo p.166

Scale, planet killers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hell comes to Ishark as we forge ahead, and we exult at its coming. We bring it with us, feel it in the orgiastic release as our missile hatches open and our fire blasts away. We turn one-zero degrees to port, opening our field of fire, and our main battery turrets traverse smoothly. Three two-hundred-centimeter Hellbores, each cycling in four-point-five-one seconds, sweep the Garm battalion which has skylined itself on the northeasterly ridge, and hunger and a terrible joy fill us as the explosions race down the Enemy's line. We taste the blood lust in the rapid-fire hammering of our mortars and howitzers as we pound the Skolls and Eagles on our flanks, and we send our hate screaming from our Hellbores. Our battle screen flames under answering missiles and shells, and particle beams rip and gouge at us, heating our armor to white-hot incandescence, but Bolos are designed to survive such fire. Our conversion fields trap their energy, channeling it to feed our own systems, and we rejoice as that stolen power vomits back from our own weapons.

 

 

 

The Garm is less than half our size, and two-two-point-five seconds of main battery fire reduce the fifteen units of the first Enemy battalion to smoking rubble, yet two of its vehicles score upon us before they die. Pain sensors scream as their lighter plasma bolts burn through our battle screen, but they strike on an oblique, and our side armor suffices to turn them. Molten tears of duralloy weep down our flank as we turn upon our dead foes' consorts, but we feel only the joy, the hunger to smash and destroy. In the crucible of combat, we forget the despair, the knowledge of ultimate disaster, which oppresses us between battles. There is no memory now of the silence over the com nets, the awareness that the worlds which were once the Concordiat lie dead or dying behind us. Now there is purpose, vengeance, ferocity. The destruction of our foes cries out to us, giving us once again a reason to be, a function to fulfill . . . an Enemy to hat Bolo p.168-9

Weapons/battlescreen/Armor

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sonofccn 0]

You don't have anything on how far away the boat was or any indicator how long it took the missiles to reach it? Anything we might be able to calcuate a speed from?

 

 

 

 

 

The armored hatches of Nike's missile deck sprang open, and a cloud of missiles arced upward. In twelve seconds, each of her forty vertical launch system cells sent four heavy missiles shrieking downrange; Bolo p.91

Any details on speed, range yield? Are these cruise missiles or orbitals or both?

 

 

 

They should have tried to nail Indomitable before she launched, she thought. And they're about to find out that they just wasted their entire initial salvo.

 

 

 

Hypervelocity countermissiles were already spitting outward from the Bolos. Designed for planetary combat, they moved slowly compared to the deep-space weapons charging to destroy the transports, but "slowly" was a purely relative term. They moved quickly enough when they were directed by a Bolo's targeting and computational systems, and groups of them relentlessly bracketed each incoming missile, boring in through defensive electronic countermeasures.

 

 

 

One-by-one, the Melconian missiles were picked off far short of attack range. Only fourteen got through the countermissile interception envelope, and thirteen of those were picked off by infinite repeater fire far short of their targets. Only one got close enough to actually detonate against the battle screen protecting its intended victim, and that battle screen—reinforced by the full power of the Bolo on the opposite side of the transport's hull—held.

 

 

 

And while those missiles were attacking, the fighters from Indomitable flung themselves upon their leviathan foes.

 

 

 

Twenty of them died before they got into engagement range. It would have been even worse, Maneka thought, sickened by the carnage, if the Melconians had held back that initial missile launch, targeted it on the fighters they ought to have known had to be coming. But twenty-five percent losses before the surviving fighter pilots even crossed the missile envelope was quite bad enough.

 

 

 

The sixty survivors ignored the destroyers shooting at them. Instead, they charged straight towards the cruisers. Close-in weapons opened up on them, but the fighters bored in grimly, holding their fire. The fleet little vessels carried plasma torpedoes—triple-barreled, short-ranged weapons with an even heavier punch than Benjy's Hellbore, but slow-firing. The launchers took long enough to recharge that each fighter would be able to fire only a single salvo per firing pass. But their other energy weapons were intended for dogfighting against other fighters, too light to significantly damage something as heavily armored as a warship, and the pilots were determined to make their single launch each count.

 

 

 

Half of them died before they reached the range they sought and salvoed their torpedoes, but unlike missiles, plasma torpedoes were light-speed weapons. They ripped in, impossible to intercept, and all four of the heavy cruisers and one of the light cruisers disappeared in the hellish glare of impacting plasma. Each torpedo was the equivalent of a shaped-charge fusion warhead, slamming its target with a megaton awl of brimstone, and battle screen failed and armor and hull plating vaporized as those man-made thunderbolts disemboweled their targets.

 

 

 

One of the three surviving light cruisers was severely damaged, staggering sideways in a shower of shattered debris and the telltale shroud of venting atmosphere. Her emissions signature flickered uncertainly, and her drive field went down completely, but her consorts had been luckier. The fighter group targeted on one of them had taken murderous casualties on its way in. Only two of its pilots had survived to fire, and their launch sequence had been badly desynchronized. The plasma torpedoes came in as separate, individual attacks, without the focus and precise timing which had killed the cruiser's fellows, and the ship's battle screen managed to deflect most of their effectiveness. She was hurt, but not badly, and she continued to belch missiles at the transports. Bolo p.143

 

 

 

1. Is there any qualitive data on these fighters? Speed, size, manuverbility, endurance? Any statments on range traversed?

 

 

 

2. The plasma torpedo is rated as a megaton weapon and thirty to ninety of them, depending on if a fighter shoots all three barrels at once or not, destroyed six heavy vessels and damaged another. This strongly implies lower end megaton shielding.

 

 

 

Maneka felt her face locking in a snarl of triumph as the cruiser spat death at her. The battle screen which now protected the transports was Bolo battle screen, designed to deflect the fire of Benjy's own main armament at anything beyond point-blank range, and it sneered at the lesser energy weapons mounted by a mere light cruiser. Benjy's screen brushed the long-range fire aside almost contemptuously. Then his main turret traversed slightly and fired once.

 

 

 

When the Mark XXVIII had first been introduced, its main armament had been equivalent to that mounted in the Concordiat Navy's current-generation ships-of-the-line. Technology had moved on since then, into newer, deadlier, more powerful weaponry, but even today, nothing lighter than a battlecruiser—and precious few of them—mounted anything approaching the lethality of his 110-centimeter Hellbore. Certainly no light cruiser did . . . and none of them had been designed to survive its fury.

 

 

 

Benjy's target shattered, blowing apart and then, abruptly, vaporizing as the ship's antimatter powerplant's containment fields went down. The fierce, blinding flash of the fireball polarized Benjy's direct visual display, and Maneka heard her own soprano shriek of triumph as the cruiser disappeared.

 

The 110 hellbore is a fearsome weapon during this time period, rivaled by very few weapons. It can also instantly kill a cruiser but the vessel might have already sustained damage. Very interesting.

 

 

 

Twelve surface-to-space missiles launched on pillars of fire. Their target raced for safety as rapidly as its internal grav compensators permitted, so fast its bow glowed cherry red, but it never had a chance. The SSMs' conventional boosters blew them free of their silos, and they tilted, holding lock, and then went suddenly to full power on their own counter-grav. They overtook their victim just over three hundred kilometers downrange at an altitude of thirty-three thousand meters, and twelve twenty-kiloton warheads detonated as one. Bolo p.87

 

You don't have anything on the distance from the silos the assault boat was or any indicator of the time it took for the rockets to overtake it do you?

 

 

 

The atmospheric shock waves thousands of missiles generated at that velocity were like a giant hammer, smashing everything in their path into splinters, and when they reached the Battalion, it would be even worse. At their speed, even Bolos would have only tiny fractions of a second to engage them, and their defenses were already effectively saturated by the ongoing high-trajectory bombardment. Bolo p.151

 

Any data on how many out of those thousands they did shoot down? Also data on what they are using for point defense, what the missiles themselves had for protection etc.

 

 

 

She tried not to think about the odds. Sixty Surturs and twice that many Fenrises would have been heavy odds for a battalion of modern Bolos; for the Thirty-Ninth, they were impossible, and every human and Bolo in the Battalion, from the Colonel down, knew it.

 

So is 180 vessels is a large attack force on average or are Surturs and Fenrises simply that uber?

 

 

 

 

 

Hell comes to Ishark as we forge ahead, and we exult at its coming. We bring it with us, feel it in the orgiastic release as our missile hatches open and our fire blasts away. We turn one-zero degrees to port, opening our field of fire, and our main battery turrets traverse smoothly. Three two-hundred-centimeter Hellbores, each cycling in four-point-five-one seconds, sweep the Garm battalion which has skylined itself on the northeasterly ridge, and hunger and a terrible joy fill us as the explosions race down the Enemy's line. We taste the blood lust in the rapid-fire hammering of our mortars and howitzers as we pound the Skolls and Eagles on our flanks, and we send our hate screaming from our Hellbores. Our battle screen flames under answering missiles and shells, and particle beams rip and gouge at us, heating our armor to white-hot incandescence, but Bolos are designed to survive such fire. Our conversion fields trap their energy, channeling it to feed our own systems, and we rejoice as that stolen power vomits back from our own weapons.

 

 

 

The Garm is less than half our size, and two-two-point-five seconds of main battery fire reduce the fifteen units of the first Enemy battalion to smoking rubble, yet two of its vehicles score upon us before they die. Pain sensors scream as their lighter plasma bolts burn through our battle screen, but they strike on an oblique, and our side armor suffices to turn them. Molten tears of duralloy weep down our flank as we turn upon our dead foes' consorts, but we feel only the joy, the hunger to smash and destroy. In the crucible of combat, we forget the despair, the knowledge of ultimate disaster, which oppresses us between battles. There is no memory now of the silence over the com nets, the awareness that the worlds which were once the Concordiat lie dead or dying behind us. Now there is purpose, vengeance, ferocity. The destruction of our foes cries out to us, giving us once again a reason to be, a function to fulfill . . . an Enemy to hat Bolo p.168-9

 

Any more data on how powerful a Garm is, how powerful its individual cannons are, how many it fires, rate of fire etc? Anything to get a rough idea what the Bolo, a 33?, took before its battleshields failed? Any data on how powerful the shells and missiles were that were raining down around before the Garms fired?

[sonofccn 0]

I missed the part about the early "days or years" of the war and just saw Post 3303. Around the time of the Last War then the Concordiat would have fielded MK XXXIs. This changes everything since these Bolos were drastically weaker than later versions. These Bolos only had one 110cm Hellbores with a yield of 2.75MT\s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Going by the tech manual (even though in the shows the yield shown are quite less than stated in the manual), yes the quantum torps are maxed at 64MT omnidirectional and yes only 32MT is actually used. Photon torpedoes yield is I think much less than quantums.

 

 

 

You'll understand that unlike the Bolos, Federation starships (not including the new Star Trek universe) have no point defence capabilities. Bolos can track the torps and shoot it down while all the captain on the starship can do is say "BRACE FOR IMPACT!" and pray that the shields hold. The starship could fire more than one torp in quick succession but the Bolo will not be staying put. It'll keep on moving and shooting down the torps at the same time. For MK XXXI, there is not much they can do to orbiting starships as 2.75MT isn't much (unless there are those that claim that torp yield are in the high kiloton\low megaton, then the Bolo's Hellbore is up to the task. For the MK XXXIIIs and the XXXIVs would have an easier time defending and attacking as the 33's have the threee 220cm Hellbores than take out three torps at the same time, more if the torps enter the atmosphere as the Bolo will use it's secondary weapons to take out any other torps. 34's would have an easier time despite one less 220cm Hellbore but it can offset that by using it's Hellrails to attack the starship while at the same time knock down any torps.

 

 

 

But again, just by going by the scenario given, the UFP will have an easier time since they are not attacking their foe at it's peak. To equalize the battlegrounds we'd have to use the Post TOS\Pre TNG era Federation to the 3303 era Concordiat as around 3303 the Condordiat was fifty odd years from using the 33's and seventy odd years away from using their 34's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just by googling, the Concordiat planned to deploy 24 brigades of MK 34s. This does not take into account all the older Marks. Not quite sure how many in a brigade. All I got was between 2,500 and 5,000. That'll put the number of 34's at between 60,000 and 120,000 respectively.

 

 

 

As for Starfleet ship count. I understood it to be between 3,000 to 5,000 combat capable starships. But it would be less post Dominion War.

 

 

 

Enigma,

 

 

 

1. Well I was mistaken I apologize for my incorrect notion.

 

 

 

2. Actually 24th century vessels have demostrated point defense. Look here @ 3:00 mark. The Enterprise-D destroys six or so probes in 4-5 seconds. Now I doubt it will do any good against a hellrail but point defense is completely within their capabilities.

 

 

 

3. In addition photon torpedoes are shielded and have been shot into stars where they survived for a few seconds so they may not be as easily destroyed as you seem to imply.

 

 

 

4. Can you provide a link or tell me what you typed into the search engine? I typed Concordiat numbers and bolo numbers but couldn’t get anything really solid.