United Federations of Planets Alliance vs Galactic Empire (Expanded Universe only)

[Picard578 0]

This is one debate I most likely won't participate in (at least not much), due to my extreme unfamiliarity with both EU's. Here, UFP Alliance (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire) takes on Galactic Empire. EU materials only. For those who are unfamilliar with EU, yet want to participate, here are links to respective wikis:

 

 

 

ST EU

 

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

 

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

 

 

 

SW EU

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

 

 

 

There will be no wars or incursions, but low-level activity of both Rebel Alliance and Maquis will continue for duration of war.

[Questor 501]

I have a bunch of questions related to how you want to interperet the Trek EU. Most of these questions have to do with the fact that until recently, absolutely ZERO effort was spent trying to maintain continuity in the Star Trek EU. At best, authors would maintain their own continuities and adopt in stories they liked. For example, I can think of three or four Kirk origin stories, non of which are compatible, but all of which are referenced at different times.

 

 

 

Here comes the questions:

 

 

 

Which Star Trek EUs are being used? Some of them are mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

Heck, there's at least 4-5 seperate continuities in the comics alone, not to mention the various books.

 

 

 

Did Kirk get resurrected by the Borg?

 

 

 

Is New Frontier included? What about the Fury Saga? Which Pocket books numbered novels, if any?

 

 

 

What's Saavik's origin story? Did New Earth happen?

 

 

 

Which of the 2 or 3 different versions of the end of the E-A happened.

 

 

 

Did Star Trek 4 follow immediately after Star Trek 3, or did the comics New Frontiers saga happen? What about the Trial of James T. Kirk sequence?

 

 

 

What about the Day of Honor sequence? Millenium? The Lost Years sequence? Best Destiny? The 2 or 3 Sulu commanding the Excelsior sequences?

 

 

 

Which, if any, non-broadcast Q stories took place?

[enigma 521]

With the GE going for a curbstomp on the Fed Alliance just by ignoring the EU, adding it would be a crime against humanity. Do you really hate the Feds?

[Questor 501]

Actually, assuming that he picks the correct personal canon for the Star Trek EU. This one is far more interesting.

 

 

 

The EU actually hurts the size and scope of the Empire, in a lot of ways. Zhan, while telling some enjoyable stories, never really grasped the scope of the Empire, and the less said about Karen Travis, the better.

[Khas 12,158]

With the GE going for a curbstomp on the Fed Alliance just by ignoring the EU, adding it would be a crime against humanity. Do you really hate the Feds?

 

 

 

Uh, Enigma, there's actually a metric fuckton of wanked-up shit in the ST EU. The USS da Vinci - a small Saber-class starship - manages to cloak an entire planet. The UFP has planet-cracker bombs, which it uses on uncommon, but not completely rare occasions. The Borg EAT PLUTO. Not to mention the whole Genesis Wave thing.

[Questor 501]

Yeah, not to mention how much larger and more militaristic Starfleet generally is. But it all depends on which of the 8 bajillion combinations he wants to select. I'd advise including the DC TMP era comics, simply for rule of cool, but there's also a number of great stories elsewhere. The wank out of the SCE ebooks is rather... extreme, and since those guys are hand-picked by Scotty himself, that can't be taken as an example of what a normal Saber can do though.

[enigma 521]

Uh, Enigma, there's actually a metric fuckton of wanked-up shit in the ST EU. The USS da Vinci - a small Saber-class starship - manages to cloak an entire planet. The UFP has planet-cracker bombs, which it uses on uncommon, but not completely rare occasions. The Borg EAT PLUTO. Not to mention the whole Genesis Wave thing.

 

 

 

Sun Crusher (can survive being inside the center of a star and is immune to basically every ship weapons available and carried missiles that were designed to cause supernovas in stars. I think it was finally destroyed when it was towed to a black hole.)

 

 

 

Galaxy Gun (at max setting, can vapourize a planet. Each missile is armoured, shielded and has defensive weaponry to defend itself as it heads to its target. Think VOY's Dreadnaught and scale it to be able to vapourize a planet.)

 

 

 

World Devastators (basically worse than the Death Stars. While the DS' destroyed worlds, the WD eat them up and use the materials to turn out ships and improve themselves and even create more WDs. Attacking ships would end up being eaten. The only canonical way they were destroyed was when Luke and R2D2 managed to create a virus that caused the WDs' droid brains to attack each other.)

 

 

 

Death Stars (1,2 and the prototype)

 

 

 

Centerpointe station

 

 

 

Super Star Destroyers (Eclipse class had a mini superlaser)

 

 

 

Darksaber (pared down DS, that was basically engine, power source, control room and superlaser)

 

 

 

The Tarkin (similar to the Darksaber but better built)

 

 

 

Eye of Palpatine (a 19,000 kilometer battlemoon)

 

 

 

Yeah.... It is still a curbstomp. Poor Feddies. The GE had a FLEET of World Devastators and those suckers could build more of themselves and build droid controlled fighters and other ships. Very heavily shielded that it could resist pinpoint turbolaser fire. Given the size of the Empire, if they chose to build more of those superweapons, the Fed Alliance would just crumble into dust.

[Questor 501]

A - Nothing there compares to the Genesis Wave - or, frankly the douple helix weapon, or some of the other wierd stuff from the ST Books. Hell, the Furies series also had a number of rather dangerous groups. Not to mention the super-borg from the shatner novels.

 

 

 

B - Kirk was resurrected. Ripped Shirt Kirk is unstoppable, and could probably blow up anything just by looking at it.

[Khas 12,158]

IIRC, in the Shatner novels, the Preservers tried to destroy the entire Mirror Universe by flooding it with energy. That only puts them at, oh, somewhere around Doctor Who levels of power.

[Khas 12,158]

As for the World Devastators, there were only a few built. I think it was 6 or 7. And they took a hella long time to get rid of a planet. Actually, they didn't even destroy one planet.

[enigma 521]

A - Nothing there compares to the Genesis Wave - or, frankly the douple helix weapon, or some of the other wierd stuff from the ST Books. Hell, the Furies series also had a number of rather dangerous groups. Not to mention the super-borg from the shatner novels.

 

 

 

B - Kirk was resurrected. Ripped Shirt Kirk is unstoppable, and could probably blow up anything just by looking at it.

 

 

 

Borg Cube meet World Devastator. World Devastator meet Borg Cube. Now play nice.......... OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! STOP EATING HIM! *Smacks WD* This is why you don't have any friends!

 

 

 

Through a fleet of WD's at the Borg and let the Borg experience irony.

 

 

 

I haven't read a lot of ST books (it has been at least a decade since I last read one) but isn't the Genesis Wave caused by a race outside of the Fed alliance? If so then we can't use that.

 

 

 

Even if you can use it, it still pales in comparison to the Sun Crusher. A starfighter sized ship that can obliterate star systems and is all but impervious to weapons fire. It even survived a glancing shot from a superlaser (from the prototype DS).

[Questor 501]

The superborg were the ones who built VGER, the cloud that could digitize entire solar systems? Yeah, that's them. WD gets hit by digitizer torpedo and dissapears.

 

 

 

I'm mostly just listing examples of superwank. You also haven't countered the bioweapons, nor have you acknowledged the anti-wank in a number of SW EU sources.

 

 

 

And what about the UFP's ultimate superweapon?

[enigma 521]

As for the World Devastators, there were only a few built. I think it was 6 or 7. And they took a hella long time to get rid of a planet. Actually, they didn't even destroy one planet.

 

 

 

I'm going by Wookieepedia (yeah, yeah, I know. ). It sourced the Dark Empire Sourcebook that it could consume a planet within several months. That is if you left one or several alone on a planet. They are also programmed to upgrade themselves so no two WDs end up alike. Nevertheless, they could not be destroyed by conventional methods and they could make more of themselves.

 

 

 

A WD is more efficient than a DS as it could consume a planet within several months (of course this varies depending on the size of the planet), all the while improving itself and build countless numbers of various ship types.

[enigma 521]

The superborg were the ones who built VGER, the cloud that could digitize entire solar systems? Yeah, that's them. WD gets hit by digitizer torpedo and dissapears.

 

 

 

I'm mostly just listing examples of superwank. You also haven't countered the bioweapons, nor have you acknowledged the anti-wank in a number of SW EU sources.

 

 

 

And what about the UFP's ultimate superweapon?

 

 

 

Kirk? Just get him on a bridge and then blow its supports.

 

 

 

Refresh my memory of VGER's capabilites? Isn't that also not part of UFP arsenal? What I've posted are what the Empire in its various forms created. I have not included superweapons from other races.

 

 

 

I do not know of the double helix weapon. Is it a Fed Alliance weapon?

[Questor 501]

V'Ger was Star Trek: The Motion Picture's bad guy. It had these blue torpedo looking things that digitied things into massive memory banks. As Spock flew through the memory banks, he saw entire star systems. In one of the Shatner novels (talk about wank) Kirk is resurrected by the romulans, using superborg technology as they have allied with the borg. Therefor, by Jason logic, the fed alliance now includes super-borg.

 

 

 

As I said, I'm just pulling examples of superwank out of my memory. It's been over a decade since I read a Trek novel.

 

 

 

The Double Helix Prion stuff is from a mini-series that was mostly in the TNG era. The illness could kill entire planets rediculously fast, and was almost impossible to cure. In SW terms - you're going to need bacta, and enough of it for entire planets.

[Questor 501]

Kirk? Just get him on a bridge and then blow its supports.

 

 

 

The Romulans and Superborg fixed that.

[Picard578 0]

I have a bunch of questions related to how you want to interperet the Trek EU. Most of these questions have to do with the fact that until recently, absolutely ZERO effort was spent trying to maintain continuity in the Star Trek EU. At best, authors would maintain their own continuities and adopt in stories they liked. For example, I can think of three or four Kirk origin stories, non of which are compatible, but all of which are referenced at different times.

 

 

 

Here comes the questions:

 

 

 

Which Star Trek EUs are being used? Some of them are mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

Heck, there's at least 4-5 seperate continuities in the comics alone, not to mention the various books.

 

 

 

Did Kirk get resurrected by the Borg?

 

 

 

Is New Frontier included? What about the Fury Saga? Which Pocket books numbered novels, if any?

 

 

 

What's Saavik's origin story? Did New Earth happen?

 

 

 

Which of the 2 or 3 different versions of the end of the E-A happened.

 

 

 

Did Star Trek 4 follow immediately after Star Trek 3, or did the comics New Frontiers saga happen? What about the Trial of James T. Kirk sequence?

 

 

 

What about the Day of Honor sequence? Millenium? The Lost Years sequence? Best Destiny? The 2 or 3 Sulu commanding the Excelsior sequences?

 

 

 

Which, if any, non-broadcast Q stories took place?

 

 

 

I was unaware that Star Wars EU maintains continuity. If it does, then it does really bad job at it, from what I saw at Wookiepedia.

 

 

 

As for Star Trek EU being used, most logical choice would be ones that conform best to rest of EU (that is, if we have 3 novels stating something is X, and one stating something is Y, we assume that this something is indeed X).

[Questor 501]

I was unaware that Star Wars EU maintains continuity. If it does, then it does really bad job at it, from what I saw at Wookiepedia.

 

 

 

You're just a completely ignorant idiot who's never actually read ANY of the EU, aren't you? Plot continuity versus tech continuity.

 

 

 

I love how all the new trekkies like to jump on the bandwagon and bash the EU when they don't even know what it is. I can respect Tyr, he disagrees with me on a lot of stuff, but he has at least read a huge portion of the material.

 

 

 

GROW UP.

 

 

 

As for Star Trek EU being used, most logical choice would be ones that conform best to rest of EU (that is, if we have 3 novels stating something is X, and one stating something is Y, we assume that this something is indeed X).

 

 

 

 

Why don't you spend some time over on Memory Beta and get back to me? Try and figure out why that's stupid.

[Khas 12,158]

I was unaware that Star Wars EU maintains continuity. If it does, then it does really bad job at it, from what I saw at Wookiepedia.

 

 

 

Storywise, the SW EU has great continuity. Even from the comparitively little I've read (9 novels, 2 technical guides, and the SW Encyclopedia), it seemed like this was a real history, with events millennia in the past being referenced.

 

 

 

On the tech and firepower side of things, however, the EU fluctuates wildly. For example, in the attempted Base Delta Zero of Nar Shaddaa in "The Hutt Gambit", 27 ships were required to perform it, it mentioned that the attack would leave wrecked buildings and bodies across that world, and fighters and shuttles would be needed to perform mop-up operations. And going by Wookiepedia, Nar Shaddaa is smaller than Mercury.

 

 

 

And before anyone accuses me of taking this from Darkstar's site, no, I didn't. I have this book at home, what with the Han Solo trilogy being some of my favorite SW novels.

[Questor 501]

And before anyone accuses me of taking this from Darkstar's site, no, I didn't. I have this book at home, what with the Han Solo trilogy being some of my favorite SW novels.

 

 

 

Why would they? I'd expect most SW fans have read that trilogy. It's good swashbuckling.

 

 

 

EDIT: You know, they'd be excelent movies, if Pirates hadn't come out.

[Picard578 0]

Storywise, the SW EU has great continuity. Even from the comparitively little I've read (9 novels, 2 technical guides, and the SW Encyclopedia), it seemed like this was a real history, with events millennia in the past being referenced.

 

 

 

On the tech and firepower side of things, however, the EU fluctuates wildly. For example, in the attempted Base Delta Zero of Nar Shaddaa in "The Hutt Gambit", 27 ships were required to perform it, it mentioned that the attack would leave wrecked buildings and bodies across that world, and fighters and shuttles would be needed to perform mop-up operations. And going by Wookiepedia, Nar Shaddaa is smaller than Mercury.

 

 

 

And before anyone accuses me of taking this from Darkstar's site, no, I didn't. I have this book at home, what with the Han Solo trilogy being some of my favorite SW novels.

 

 

 

Yeah, from what I remember from Rise of Dark Force and Wookiepedia, there are several story-wise inconsistencies with movies; but I can't remember any internal inconsistencies, story-wise. As for firepower, it might be that guys at LucasLinc don't care about it - however, it might become problem when storyline of one book requires teratons of firepower, and storyline of another requires kilotons of firepower - and no, I don't mean implies, but that storyline requires it in that lower or higher firepower would make story as it is impossible to happen. Then, I'm no expert at EU, so...

[Questor 501]

How about just admitting that you have no idea what you're talking about and shut up?

 

 

 

OF COURSE THERE ARE INCONSISTENCIES! Do you think that any medium that runs over that long has no inconsistencies?

 

 

 

Hell, Anne McCaffrey's been unable to keep inconsistencies from slipping into Pern, and at least that's just her and her son (and they try and iron them out when they don't work).

 

 

 

How many authors have been involved in the SW EU?

 

 

 

Now, on another topic, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The ST live action serieses couldn't even maintain continuity episode to episode.

 

 

 

Of course, I have no doubt that you'll continue moving the goalposts, lying, and generally acting like a particularly undisciplined and uneducated child, just like you did in the other thread. Why don't you go back to SFJ and RSA's haunts, where behavior like yours is considered the height of fashion?

[Khas 12,158]

You are aware that behavior like that is the height of fashion on most vs. websites, right?

[paul 11,988]

*eats his popcorn*

[Questor 501]

You are aware that behavior like that is the height of fashion on most vs. websites, right?

 

 

 

That's probably why I don't visit most Vs. websites, and stay out of vs topics on the vs website I do visit other than this one.

 

 

 

Mod abuse is also de rigueur on vs. websites, but Tyr and Paul have made it clear that it's not allowed here - so I can't squish him like the bug he is.