Enterprise-D Vs Covenant Destroyer

[Praeothmin 532]

The new edition of TFoR? Don't have it but what I hear is it is 99% (just 27 new pages) the samething with more errors but keeps everything pretty much the same otherwise as the first edition.

 

 

 

So numbers are still valid?

 

You say the newer canon supercedes the older.

 

I have no problem with that.

 

What's the order?

 

For example, if anovel comes out after Halo 1 and 2, but gives weak weapons, it then supercedes any showings of stronger weapons in Halo 1 and 2?

 

I'm asking because Halo canon seems solidly fubared...

 

 

 

Which requires us to ignore The Storm scene from Halo 3 (being the latest game at the time it overrules the silly sub-kiloton bullshit we're seeing in H 2) and the fact that we can not even see the Covenant ships when the fleet and ODP's open fire. Can't really use the scene since it can support both of us here

 

 

 

Do you have a youtube link?

 

I have trouble finding Halo 3 visuals...

 

And if you are talking about my link, whether we see enemy ships or not has no importance, because even if the ships were at 3000km, and it took the MAC round 10 seconds to get there, the fact still remains we SEE the round leave the cannon, which precludes any 40% lightspeed bullshit...

 

 

 

Halopedia? I am not using the site, I'm using the official canon book the Halo Encyclopedia. Also the yield is 1.17 Teratons, I've run the numbers myself on the SDN calculator and then run them there a conversion site and like other calcs before it came out to 1.17 Teratons

 

 

 

Ah... Well, I can't use it, because I don't have it...

 

What does the 1.17Ttons yield come from?

 

The super MAC gets me in that range if we go by the 50% c Halopedia link, but not the shipborne MACs.

 

If we do 600 000kg x (60 000 000m/s)² divided by 2, we get 108+E19 Joules, or 258.13Gtons for shipborne MACs.

 

 

 

And until the new cashgrab by 343/Microsoft it overruled older showings per the Halo Canon policy given by Bungie that in the event of a contradiction that could not be reconciled the latest canon is the superior canon.

 

 

 

See above my question about the chronological order of the products...

 

 

 

You really seem to be having epic reading comprehension failure here. I already gave you the quote from the canon book the Halo Encyclopedia, and now that what is the "new" edition of TFoR goes back to the older numbers the best we're getting out of MAC guns is several thousand kps going by the ranges they fight at. And I conceded at least for the time being that the E-D wins.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I kept mistaking the Halo Encyclopedia book with the Halo Pedia...

 

But Prophet, while you say you conceeded, you keep coming back with other arguments defending your position.

 

That's not conceeding.

 

Anyway, even if the newest edition of TFoR keeps the old numbers, we must use everything we have in order to get an accurate picture.

 

If the books say weak weapons, and most of the cinematics show weak weapons, but we have strong showings, we must find a way to rationalize all the showings to obtain a good middle ground.

 

You know a lot about Halo, and you say some Halo 3 visuals show powerful weapons.

 

could you link that so we may try to extrapolate something of this, and perhaps find a good Halo middle ground?

 

 

 

the Autumn going off and the massive accelerations that support massive power generation.

 

 

 

Ah, but you see, massive power output does not automatically mean massive weapons output.

 

ST also has massive power outputs (E-D's 12.75 millon Gwatts while not in combat), but they cannot use it all in their weapons...

 

I'm not saying Covenant ships aren't fast, or that they aren't powerful, and I don't recall saying it would be a cakewalk for the E-D.

 

I'm just saying that, for the moment, that E-D seems more powerful, and would win the fight.

 

 

 

[Tyralak 12,068]

Holy crap! What's with the blue? You trying to give me a migraine?

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Just a short reply until I can get the links I need:

 

 

 

1. Games are still the highest canon outside of the Halo Bible and anything said by Bungie. The New>Old thing was that if part of the Halo 3 canon was different than Halo 2 canon Halo 3 was to be used. But as long as the books can be reconciled we their still good.

 

 

 

2. I have to say at this point fuck the "NEW"! edition of The Fall of Reach. It has been well established by canon at this point that the UNSC has known about Elites for decades yet it still sticks with them being a recent addition to Covenant frontline forces! Now the date for the Battle of Reach is 2542 which is completely wrong! UNSC fleet numbers are still the same around Reach but now there are 700 Covenant ships in the first attack wave and Keyes still considers the UNSC only outnumbered 3(2?)-1! I mean we've known since H 2 when Hood said "Something isn't right. The Fleet that destroyed Reach was fifty times this size." That the TOTAL Covenant fleet size had been larger then though going just by the book! But come on!

 

 

 

The Halo Encyclopedia has some errors when it comes to dates and weapons ranges (or their just suppose to be that silly short range for real) but even it isn't THIS bad! The only "NEW" canon here is the 27 pages that have been added. At this point I am simply not going to consider ALL of this new canon since one of the major reasons they were making new editions was to fix the errors not put more in! I am so glad I read what others had to say before going out and buying this new edition.

 

 

 

3. Gah! What Tyralak said! The blue! It may be my favorite color but it burns the eyes!

[Praeothmin 532]

Kept having problems with my editor (I repliy in a word document and then copy-paste here)...

 

How is it now?

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

Lawl, so there's a new edition of TFoR?

 

 

 

Now with the firepower numbers brought down again (although imho it was necessary) that contest is largely within the E-D's abilities to win, perhaps by far.

 

 

 

You know, the funny thing with canon is that as I get it, cutscenes take it over gameplay.

 

Which has allowed me to formulate the most amusing argument that the superfast Flood transformations from Halo 3 never made it into a cutscene, and were directly contradicted by all cutscenes from the former two games.

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

3. Gah! What Tyralak said! The blue! It may be my favorite color but it burns the eyes!

 

 

 

Can't settle on any good enough colour scheme so atm I'm using the Paradox style. I'm getting used to the burning orange bars. The advantage is that the background is mostly gray and the fonts are easy to read without killing me eyes. All the others styles are literally bludgeoning my eye globes with photons. That's gross.

[Praeothmin 532]

Can't settle on any good enough colour scheme so atm I'm using the Paradox style. I'm getting used to the burning orange bars. The advantage is that the background is mostly gray and the fonts are easy to read without killing me eyes. All the others styles are literally bludgeoning my eye globes with photons. That's gross.

 

 

 

 

 

Their comment was aimed at my blue colored font when I first replied, I changed it back afterwards...

[InvaderSkooj 1]

The Covenant wins

but only if they mistake the Ent-D for a planet and glass it

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

They could do that, as long as the E-D is close enough to look as big as a planet.

 

 

 

Frankly this needs an explanation. The large scale weapons the Covenant use most obviously exploit something that's readily available on a planet and which is not so available in space at all.

 

Matter would be one thing, but you'd need antimatter, and the UNSC don't have shields so they'd be screwed.

 

Gravity weapons, I don't know... perhaps they can open rifts which prove far more deadly in close proximity to a planet. That said the difference of gravity between the surface and low orbit wouldn't really explain the difference either.

 

 

 

It's probably some technobabble weapon of doom, ID4 style, or like the Necromongers do: most impressive outside of what they can only use for conventional combat.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

There are still some large explosions in Reach, so they probably just use large unguided/unpropelled bombs for bombardment

[Praeothmin 532]

Yeah, but even after Reach's "glassing", they were patches of burnt grass on scorched earth, and standing mountains, and no vitrified surfaces.

 

Clearly not all the planet was literally glassed, but the explosions did create firestorms, that much is obvious, which went on and burned surfaces that were untouched by the bombardment.

 

 

 

I read one theory over at SB.com where someone said that the Covenant glassing weapons were a technobabble weapon that got power form oxygen, thus why they were much weaker in space than on a planet...

 

Indeed, in one book, all the UNSC crew of a ship that got hit needed to do the "stop" the plasma from boiling the plating away was to cut the oxygen in the breached compartment, which in turn extinguished the plasma...

[Mith 0]

Yeah, but even after Reach's "glassing", they were patches of burnt grass on scorched earth, and standing mountains, and no vitrified surfaces.

 

Clearly not all the planet was literally glassed, but the explosions did create firestorms, that much is obvious, which went on and burned surfaces that were untouched by the bombardment.

 

 

 

I read one theory over at SB.com where someone said that the Covenant glassing weapons were a technobabble weapon that got power form oxygen, thus why they were much weaker in space than on a planet...

 

Indeed, in one book, all the UNSC crew of a ship that got hit needed to do the "stop" the plasma from boiling the plating away was to cut the oxygen in the breached compartment, which in turn extinguished the plasma...

 

 

 

Actually, according to the datapads in Reach, the Covenant would require over a thousand ships and thirty years to literally glass a planet the size of Earth. So yeah, it's very unlikely that Reach was literally glassed or any planet for that matter. Given that 30 megaton mines managed to take out Covenant warships and UNSC weapons seem to be limited to double digit megaton range, the Enterprise D should easily tank the ship.

[Mith 0]

That sentence alone can give credence to both sides. Either it means 30MT total or 30MT yield per mine. Neverthless, if by going by the TNG TM (I prefer to use the TM since at least it gives a figure rather than speculate for eternity for its yield) then a single Photon torpedo has a yield greater than two Hornet mines put together, while a Quantum would be 4x that number of mines.

 

 

 

So a single Photon torpedo can destroy a Covenant warship. In fact it is overkill.

 

 

 

It's 30 megatons per mine. But remember that these ships are probably only going to recieve a fraction of that energy. With multiple mines, we're talking maybe 5-30 megatons. It really all depends on how far the mines were apart from each other. If we assume a smaller area, then that gives us a higher yield, but it means that the UNSC would have less of a window to hurt the ships--ie, 14 mines covers only so much area and putting them closer reduces the useful ability of a minefield. Putting it out wider increases the hit, but lowers the overall yield. It should also be noted that some ships were damaged.

 

 

 

In all likelyhood, we're looking at probably 10-20 megatons. That means MACs probably clock in at single digits and SMACs at double digits, probably closer to a photon torpedo.

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

Ships would receive a small fraction of the nukes' particle energy if they were detonated at a distance. If Covenant ships have a firepower in the low hundred terajoule range tops, it's impossible for MACs to range in the megaton. Only the SMAC should.

 

And considering how a SMAC is more or less a long range sitting duck cannon, any advanced species which knows where to FTL in a system close to a targeted planet will have a clear LOS at the SMAC and blow it to confetti before it can even point its cannon in the right direction.

[Mith 0]

Ships would receive a small fraction of the nukes' particle energy if they were detonated at a distance. If Covenant ships have a firepower in the low hundred terajoule range tops, it's impossible for MACs to range in the megaton. Only the SMAC should.

 

And considering how a SMAC is more or less a long range sitting duck cannon, any advanced species which knows where to FTL in a system close to a targeted planet will have a clear LOS at the SMAC and blow it to confetti before it can even point its cannon in the right direction.

 

 

 

Indeed. The Haloites do have one thing going for them in that Covenant ships typically stay in a tight formation. But that's still rather presumptious in assuming they fly right into a cluster of bombs (oddly enough, they couldn't detect that--note that Kirk's Enterprise was able to pick up a nuke hidden in debris and was able to respond to it).

 

 

 

Looking at Wong's fireball size for a 30 megaton bomb, it says roughly 2.1 kilometers for an airburst fireball. Assuming that remains as is per space, it suggests that the UNSC is going to want that to engulf the small fleet as much as possible. But they'd also want to throw the biggest net they have. Given the size of a Covenant BBC (1.7 kilometers)and the size, this would mean that only one nuke detonated would be able to hit the ship at any time, though it might burn the nose of another ship. But Covenant fleet deployments typically look like schools of fish, with ships below, in front, above, and behind other ships. Now, this was a small fleet, so we're probably not looking at anything more than three ships front and back, with maybe one ship on top or at bottom. We're also probably looking about three across in width. Assuming they were all ass-hugging, it would be:

 

 

 

Length: 5.1 kilometers

 

Height: 690 meters

 

Width: 2.586 kilometers

 

 

 

But chances are, there's going to be some room between them. Right now, let's assume a uniform of 300 meters in every dimension.

 

 

 

Length: 5.7 kilometers

 

Height: 1.290 kilometers

 

Width: 3.186 kilometers

 

 

 

Now, in order to get most of those ships, we have to assume that the Captain needed to wait until the middle of the fleet had passed into the minefield. Unfortunately, for that to work, he'd need at least 3 mines to cover that area safely. But since the height is easily within nuke range, they'd only need say, one nuke to safely ensure that they get the entire fleet. The width of course, would require two mines.

 

 

 

Length: 3 30 Megaton nukes

 

Height: 1 30 Megaton nuke

 

Width: 2 30 Megaton nukes.

 

 

 

So to cover roughly 6 by 2 by 4 kilometers, it would require the use of 6 mines. This would mean that the entire width of the minefield was roughly 8 kilometers (we have to spare here).

 

 

 

Unfortunately because they are nukes, they'd get about a 4th of that energy to start with (7.5 megatons) and it would drastically dwindle the farther away you get from the heart of the explosion. And it should be noted that most of these ships were destroyed. Only two, presumably caught on the edge of the explosion, survived the incident. Even if we assume that the ships had something like, 50% shielding, at most we could give them is 15 megatons at best.

 

 

 

This is however, highly unlikely. It's worth noting that the Covenant uses its defense lasers against high chemical warheads such as Archer Missiles. That suggests that the weapons are to a degree, dangerous--rather unlikely if they had 15 megaton shielding since it would require an up to of 300 missiles to take down their shields. As far as I'm told, ships tend to carry missile pods that range in the high 20s to 30s, with the largest ships carrying 300 missiles.

 

 

 

It would be worth noting that it takes three to one odds to defeat a Covenant ship of similar tactical ability. It's also rather suggested that as of Reach, that MACs are not mission killers for ships, even if they do crippling damage in comparison to all other weapons, so in all likelyhood, yes, their MACs do single digit megatons at best. Mind you, I would probably suggest .5 megatons for your average MAC, no less than .25 megatons.It gives us a reasonable number between the more acceptable high ends and the absurdly low ends.

 

 

 

This might be a fight if we say the NX instead of the E-D. >>

[Ado Mortumee 500]

This is however, highly unlikely. It's worth noting that the Covenant uses its defense lasers against high chemical warheads such as Archer Missiles. That suggests that the weapons are to a degree, dangerous--rather unlikely if they had 15 megaton shielding since it would require an up to of 300 missiles to take down their shields. As far as I'm told, ships tend to carry missile pods that range in the high 20s to 30s, with the largest ships carrying 300 missiles.

 

No, IIRC 300 is the number given for Archer Missile Pods on Cruisers since since even a Frigate in 2525 had a total of 780 Archer missiles:

 

 

 

Page 106 of Halo: The Fall of Reach

 

 

 

“Come to heading zero three zero, declination one eight

 

zero,†Captain Wallace ordered. “Arm Archer missile pods A

 

through F. And give me a firing solution.â€

 

 

 

“Aye aye,†the navigation and weapons officers said. “A

 

through F pods armed.†They furiously tapped away on their

 

keypads. Seconds ticked by. “Firing solution ready, sir.â€

 

 

 

“Fire.â€

 

 

 

“Pods A through F firing!â€

 

 

 

The Commonwealth had twenty-six pods, each loaded

 

with thirty Archer high-explosive missiles. On screen, pods

 

A through F opened and launced--180 plumes of rocket

 

exhaust that traced a path from the Commonwealth to the

 

alien ship.

 

 

 

The enemy changed course, rotated so that the top of the

 

ship faced the incoming missiles. Then it moved straight up at

 

an alarming speed.

 

 

 

The Archer missiles altered their trajectory to track the

 

ship, but half their number streaked past the target, clean

 

misses.

 

 

 

The others impacted. Fire covered the skin of the alien

 

ship.

 

 

 

“Good work, Lieutenant,†Captain Wallace said, and he

 

clapped the young officer on the shoulder.

 

 

 

Dr. Halsey frowned and started at the sceen. “No,†she

 

whispered. “Wait.â€

 

 

 

The fire flared, then dimmed. The skin of the alien ship

 

rippled like heat wavering off a hot road in the summer. It

 

fluttered with a metallic silver sheen, then brilliant white--

 

and the fired faded, revealing the ship beneath.

 

 

 

It was completely undamaged.

 

 

 

Also the Covenant ship in question is stated to be a third the size of the Commonwealth when it jumps in front of it.

[Mith 0]

No, IIRC 300 is the number given for Archer Missile Pods on Cruisers since since even a Frigate in 2525 had a total of 780 Archer missiles:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also the Covenant ship in question is stated to be a third the size of the Commonwealth when it jumps in front of it.

 

 

 

That's still 390 kilotons at best. And less given that laser defenses tend to reduce them by about half. So in actuality we're talking about 195 kilotons. That pushes it up a bit, but we're still hampered by the 7.5 Megaton limit that the mines introduce. And that's high end. The energy intensity of the mines will decrease the farther away you are. And only what, two of those ships survived?

 

 

 

And that's assuming 50 tons--which is absurdly generous given that the largest, most powerful conventinal bomb ever detonated was 44 tons--though US officials seem to think it's probably closer to 16 tons rather than 44. Of course, those are bombs. As in, the stuff you drop on people. Where most of the weight is a bomb, rather than a missile. And those bombs are fucking huge by the way.

 

 

 

So in all reality, it could easily fall back down to a few 7.8 kilotons for a full missile--but no higher than 10-50 tons of firepower each.

 

 

 

EDIT: A note on the Russian FOAB, it seems to be me that it's very possible the Russians lied somewhat. According to officials, it couldn't have been dropped by the bomber suggested in the vid, the bomb's yield claim itself is in question, and it's possible it's not really all that new either.

 

 

 

Not hard to believe given it supposedly has the same mass as the US MOAB of 11 tons. And again, bomb. Missiles are not going to have the same oomph that a bomb has.

[Questor 501]

Looking at Wong's fireball size for a 30 megaton bomb, it says roughly 2.1 kilometers for an airburst fireball. Assuming that remains as is per space, it suggests that the UNSC is going to want that to engulf the small fleet as much as possible.

 

 

 

How stupid are you?

 

 

 

A fireball... IN SPACE?

 

 

 

It's not like there's not plenty of resources on the internet describing what nuclear weapons in space are like. Its not like there referenced on this board.

 

 

 

EDIT: To clarify, in space, nukes, just like virtually everything else, are contact or near contact weapons.

 

 

 

Also, as a side note. If I want a 50-ton explosion out of a missile, I don't need 11-tons of explosives to pull it off. Nukes get that small.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Also, as a side note. If I want a 50-ton explosion out of a missile, I don't need 11-tons of explosives to pull it off. Nukes get that small.

 

And on that note a screen shot of Archer Missile Pods from Halo: Reach I found:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Archer Missiles are nuclear weapons.

[Mith 0]

How stupid are you?

 

 

 

A fireball... IN SPACE?

 

 

 

It's not like there's not plenty of resources on the internet describing what nuclear weapons in space are like. Its not like there referenced on this board.

 

 

 

EDIT: To clarify, in space, nukes, just like virtually everything else, are contact or near contact weapons.

 

 

 

Also, as a side note. If I want a 50-ton explosion out of a missile, I don't need 11-tons of explosives to pull it off. Nukes get that small.

 

 

 

First off, as far as a 50 ton explosive missile--that'd be fine if Archer Missiles weren't directly indicated to be high chemical weapons. Unfortunately, they are high chemical and are therefore limited to their capabilities. A 10 ton warhead for each of them is actually probably pretty generous nor is it something for anyone to sneeze at. Any frigate or destroyer firing a full volley of them would probably level a modern day city. MAC or no.

 

 

 

As for your point on nukes in space, Atomic Rockets was working off between 1 kiloton to 1 megaton nuclear warheads for this:

 

 

 

As far as warhead mass goes, Anthony Jackson says the theoretical limit on mass for a fusion warhead is about 1 kilogram per megaton. No real-world system will come anywhere close to that, The US W87 thermonuclear warhead has a density of about 500 kilograms per megaton. Presumably a futuristic warhead would have a density between 500 and 1 kg/Mt. Calculating the explosive yield of a weapon is a little tricky.

 

 

 

For missiles, consider the US Trident missile. Approximately a cylinder 13.41 m in length by 1.055 m in radius, which makes it about 47 cubic meters. Mass of 58,500 kg, giving it a density of 1250 kg/m3. The mass includes eight warheads of approximately 160 kg each.

 

 

 

Wildly extrapolating far beyond the available data, one could naively divide the missile mass by the number of warheads, and divide the result by the mass of an individual warhead. The bottom line would be that a warhead of mass X kilograms would require a missile of mass 45 * X kilograms, and a volume of 0.036 * X cubic meters (0.036 = 45 / 1250). Again futuristic technology would reduce this somewhat.

 

 

 

Nuclear weapons will destroy a ship if they detonate exceedingly close to it. But if it is further away than about a kilometer, it won't do much more than singe the paint job and blind a few sensors. And in space a kilometer is pretty close range.

 

 

 

Please understand: I am NOT saying that nuclear warheads are ineffective. I am saying that the amount of damage they inflict falls off very rapidly with increasing range. At least much more rapidly than with the same sized warhead detonated in an atmosphere.

 

 

 

But if the nuke goes off one meter from your ship, your ship will probably be vaporized. Atmosphere or no.

 

 

 

I would have presumed that a 30 megaton bomb would have done something larger. But I was probably wrong (although, it was mentioned that these were "vacuum enhanced" nukes, whatever the fuck that means). Even so, 1 kilometer does not drastically help. It simply doubles the mines required:

 

 

 

Length: 6 30 Megaton nukes

 

Height: 2 30 Megaton nuke

 

Width: 4 30 Megaton nukes.

 

 

 

The yield overall is probably going to be more or less the same. Like I said, you want to throw the largest net possible to ensure destruction. And that's not even including the ships next to you that might cause more damage because they go boom.

 

 

 

And on that note a screen shot of Archer Missile Pods from Halo: Reach I found:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Archer Missiles are nuclear weapons.

 

 

 

False Dillema fallacy. Those images means one of three things:

 

 

 

A) That the Archer Missiles use nuclear fuel to reach targets.

 

That SHIVAs and other nuclear weapons can be fired from the same pods as Archer Missiles.

 

C) Both.

 

 

 

B is probably the most likely possibility. While it is true that it could mean that Archer Missiles are nukes, it doesn't exactly directly indicate that they are. This is especially true if we're told in other sources that their Archer Missiles are not nuclear weapons. It's also rather curious how ships could run out of their nuclear weapons so quickly--and indeed only carry two or three at a time. I mean hell, the frigate that escorted Noble 5 and 6 presumably had some Archer's left right? Why didn't they consider those nuclear weapons?

 

 

 

You seem to be of this belief that low-yield nukes don't count as nuclear weapons. That's not the case. If those were nuclear weapons, they'd be called nuclear weapons--albiet low yield nukes. However, the novels and the games clearly show a defining difference between typical UNSC anti-ship weaponry and nuclear weapons. It is highly illogical to assume that they are nukes, especially when we're told that material for nukes has become rarer as the war waged on.

 

 

 

So no, they aren't nuclear weapons. They can probably fire nukes, but that doesn't make Archers nukes.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Mith beating a dead horse again.

 

 

 

Halo:Evolutions supports Archers being nukes. However their horrible firepower indicates that they are definitely sub-kiloton(probably very sub)

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

In TFoR, Spartans could carry hemispheres on their backs, each worth 30 MT and could be glued to walls with some "quick n' easy" straps or something. Must have not been very heavy. On the other hand, wasn't the UNSC rather low on nukes?