Enterprise-D Vs Covenant Destroyer

[Ado Mortumee 500]

A bored ROB has taken the Enterprise-D and a Covenant CPV class-Destroyer and placed them in a solar system similar to Earth’s. The crews of both ships are told they have to destroy the other ship if they ever want to leave this solar system.

 

 

 

Which ship wins?

[Khas 12,158]

Enterprise-D. Even if we go with the low-end photon torpedo yield of 64 megatons, that should be enough to take out about 20 to 30 Covenant ships, according to "Ghosts of Onyx", in which 14 nukes with a combined yield of 30 megatons take out 12 ships out of a16-ship fleet.

 

 

 

And remember, it took at least thirty Covenant ships a day to glass an Earth-sized planet. The Obsidian Order - Tal'Shiar fleet of only twenty ships was expected to boil the Earth-sized Founder's Homeworld down to it's CORE in only six hours.

[Praeothmin 532]

Damn you Khas, you beat me to it...

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Enterprise-D. Even if we go with the low-end photon torpedo yield of 64 megatons, that should be enough to take out about 20 to 30 Covenant ships, according to "Ghosts of Onyx", in which 14 nukes with a combined yield of 30 megatons take out 12 ships out of a16-ship fleet.

 

 

 

1. Those ships had just been in 2-3 battles no more than half an hour before and were in the middle of making repairs. Start of TFoR mentions that a Covenant ships shields would need to be

 

 

 

2. Halo Canon policy New>Old.

 

 

 

3. The Ent-D has to be able to get in range of the Covenant ship. Given the Covenant ship has a standard higher weapons range and sub-light combat speed I am really doubting the Ent-D can get in range and stay close enough.

 

 

 

And remember, it took at least thirty Covenant ships a day to glass an Earth-sized planet. The Obsidian Order - Tal'Shiar fleet of only twenty ships was expected to boil the Earth-sized Founder's Homeworld down to it's CORE in only six hours.

 

 

 

It took them one hour to vaporize the oceans and melt the crust to an unknown depth. The first volley in The Die is Cast had them taking out 30% of the crust. I'm doubting that is normal and is far more likely a megacharged up attack that works mainly off the NDF effect (unlike Covenant glassing which we have as of TCP seen the charge time for Covenant plasma torpedoes) which would not have an effect on Covenant shields.

[Khas 12,158]

You're precious Covenant was beaten in this thread:

 

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=874&start=0&sid=c9ffe2b14c07830fc16ff238546231a8

 

 

 

Now, time to remove your fanwank of the Irken. From what I've seen, they aren't even one one-millionth as impressive as you say they are.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

You're precious Covenant was beaten in this thread:

 

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=874&start=0&sid=c9ffe2b14c07830fc16ff238546231a8

 

 

 

And things can change in two years. Which they have given the latest canon info confirms the higher end firepower (though I have really just tone down and go for the low single digit GT range which fits in nicely). And the Covenant still hold a vast advantage in the form of standard faster sub-light combat speeds and weapons range.

 

 

 

Now, time to remove your fanwank of the Irken. From what I've seen, they aren't even one one-millionth as impressive as you say they are.

 

 

 

Planet Jackers. Stole the Earth. Zims tiny little outdated Voot Cruiser cut through it in minutes and has been calc at a low end of 600GT/s. There is so much I can go over.

[Praeothmin 532]

3. The Ent-D has to be able to get in range of the Covenant ship. Given the Covenant ship has a standard higher weapons range and sub-light combat speed I am really doubting the Ent-D can get in range and stay close enough.

 

 

 

What's the fastest STL speed for Covenent ships?

 

Because in "The Cole Protocol", they aren't that fast, and ST shuttles could beat them...

 

And also, what's their weapons' range?

 

 

 

 

 

It took them one hour to vaporize the oceans and melt the crust to an unknown depth. The first volley in The Die is Cast had them taking out 30% of the crust. I'm doubting that is normal and is far more likely a megacharged up attack that works mainly off the NDF effect (unlike Covenant glassing which we have as of TCP seen the charge time for Covenant plasma torpedoes) which would not have an effect on Covenant shields.

 

 

 

You doubting it is normal, and you proving it are two different things.

 

The fact is there was no mention of "Special Weapons" being involved, and they also fired torpedoes, which do not do NDF.

 

Plus, these were Romulan and Cardassian ships NOT using Phasers, so no NDF again...

 

And Covenant ship maneuverability isn't that impressive from what I remember reading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll re-read all those books again just to get an accurate picture of what we're dealing with, and make sure it's not all "fanwank"...

[Ado Mortumee 500]

What's the fastest STL speed for Covenent ships?

 

 

 

Fastest speed that they have to accelerated up to is 100 million klilometers per hour in TFoR when the Spartans go after the ship that had fought with the Commonwealth. We've seen both UNSC and Covenant ships easily accelerating across tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of kilometers in no time at all. And in one of those cases it was a heavily damaged UNSC frigate with a more massive Covenant ship tacked on and it did 10,000 kilometers in 18 seconds (First Strike).

 

 

 

Because in "The Cole Protocol", they aren't that fast, and ST shuttles could beat them...

 

 

 

You mean the Kig-yar who didn't have real warships and were fighting an enemy that didn't have warships and was mostly limited to slow moving asteroid bases?

 

 

 

And also, what's their weapons' range?

 

 

 

Anywhere from low thousands of kilometers up to 100,000 kilometers as standard, with one showing that can be taken as multi-light second range when we're told a pair of Plasma Torpedoes fired 19 seconds ago are about to cross 300,000 kilometers in 2 seconds (TFoR).

 

 

 

You doubting it is normal, and you proving it are two different things.

 

 

 

The fact they first state it would take an hour to remove the crust yet took out 30% of the crust in the opening volley proves this was some form of overcharged weapons attack and not normal firepower level (or do Star Trek ships fire a lot slower than I remember all of a sudden?).

 

 

 

The fact is there was no mention of "Special Weapons" being involved, and they also fired torpedoes, which do not do NDF.

 

 

 

Didn't claim anything about special weapons just that they were using overcharged shots, and just because they fired the torpedoes means nothing since it is more likely their energy weapons were doing most of the damage. Also proof that the energy weapons we see are not NDF-like in some form (the fact the visuals don't match up with the claims is more proof that some form of NDF-like effect was going on).

 

 

 

Plus, these were Romulan and Cardassian ships NOT using Phasers, so no NDF again...

 

And Covenant ship maneuverability isn't that impressive from what I remember reading.

 

 

 

And proof of this is? Given the visuals do not agree with a DET based attack removing 30% of the crust in the opening shots it is one way to explain it as a massie overcharge attack using NDF-like effects on max, which explains things pretty nicely and keeps it in line with standard MT range firepower.

 

 

 

Off the top of my head for maneuverability is that small Kig-yar ship (that is just what I assume it is anymore due to how small it was and that fact we only ever say the Kig-yar on it) dodge/shoot down half the 180 Archer missiles coming after it that are known to be able to quickly accelerate up to 0.1 C in a very shot amount of time.

 

 

 

I think I'll re-read all those books again just to get an accurate picture of what we're dealing with, and make sure it's not all "fanwank"...

 

 

 

And it isn't, standard Halo space combat has ships fighting thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers from each other and ships accelerating at 1000+ Gs when needed.

[enigma 521]

100 million km in an hour is about 0.108C. That is not impressive.

 

 

 

10,000 km in 18 seconds is 0.0018518C. I think the E-D on thrusters is faster.

 

 

 

300,000 km in 21 seconds is 0.047619C. I mean the ship the Spartans used in your post could have outrun those torpedoes.

 

 

 

180 Archer missiles accelerating up to 0.1C in a short amount of time is crap.

 

 

 

 

 

Full impulse for the E-D is somewhere from a low end of 0.25C (less common) up to 0.8C (more common).

 

 

 

The E-D would be a ballerina nimbly dancing around the Covenant Destroyer and it's torps and missiles.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

100 million km in an hour is about 0.108C. That is not impressive.

 

 

 

"0.108C"? Ah, maybe I'm just tired but isn't that closer to 10% the speed of light than less than 1% (light travels 150,000 odd kilometers in over eight minutes)?

 

 

 

10,000 km in 18 seconds is 0.0018518C. I think the E-D on thrusters is faster.

 

 

 

 

 

Star Trek: Nemesis that clone guy has time to react to the Ent-E moving at half or full Impulse - the Ent-E at close range slowly accelerates towards his ship and he has time to stand there in shock before impact.

 

 

 

300,000 km in 21 seconds is 0.047619C. I mean the ship the Spartans used in your post could have outrun those torpedoes.

 

 

 

The Torpedoes were fired 19 seconds before being reported as crossing 300,000 kilometers in 2 seconds. Otherwise known as .5 C.

 

 

 

180 Archer missiles accelerating up to 0.1C in a short amount of time is crap.

 

 

 

I think I was wrong on that given they quickly accelerated after the ship moving at 100 million kilometers per hour.

 

 

 

Full impulse for the E-D is somewhere from a low end of 0.25C (less common) up to 0.8C (more common).

 

 

 

Picard order either half or full Impulse in Nemesis at very close range and you could see the Ent-E slowely accelerate and the crew of the ship they rammed had time to stand there in shock for a short amount of time.

 

 

 

Also please provide a showing of 0.25C or 0.8 C being their standard combat speed.

[enigma 521]

Go to Memory Alpha. 0.25C was mentioned for the TOS era. 0.5C in one of the TOS Movies while in a Voyager ep. impulse was 0.8C. It is all in Memory alpha.

 

 

 

This is standard impulse speed/acceleration/peanut-butter/etc.... AFAIK there is not combat impulse. I think the impulse acceleration is slower than warp. With Warp it is instant jump but for impulse it builds up?

 

 

 

In Nemesis, did the E-E suffer damage before hand? I barely remember the movie.

 

 

 

"0.108C"? Ah, maybe I'm just tired but isn't that closer to 10% the speed of light than less than 1% (light travels 150,000 odd kilometers in over eight minutes)?

 

 

 

 

Dude! Light travels 300,000 kilometers per SECOND! 3 million in ten seconds and 18 million in a minute! For 100 million kilometers then at light speed it would take a little over 5.5 minutes.

 

 

 

The Torpedoes were fired 19 seconds before being reported as crossing 300,000 kilometers in 2 seconds. Otherwise known as .5 C.

 

 

 

Total travel time by the time it travelled 300,000 kilometers would be 21 seconds. 19 + 2 = 21. 0.047619C. Remember that it took 19 seconds before they were mentioned that they'd reach 300,000 kilometers in two seconds meaning they were already in flight for 19 seconds and another 2 to make it 300,000 kilometers.

 

 

 

 

 

The info you give for Covenant and other Halo fluff, is it from the game itself or from books. If you are using game play/mechanics then a Covenant or whatever other ship used in sublight would not appear to do so. If you go by what is written then we'll go by dialogue in ST.

 

 

 

What is worse for the Covenant is that the E-D can launch their torps while in warp and those torps can sustain warp speed. FTL torpedoes FTW!

 

 

 

Wow! I'm defending ST! lol

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Go to Memory Alpha. 0.25C was mentioned for the TOS era. 0.5C in one of the TOS Movies while in a Voyager ep. impulse was 0.8C. It is all in Memory alpha.

 

 

 

Oh, I am not saying they can't accelerate up to those speeds, just that isn't what they fight at.

 

 

 

This is standard impulse speed/acceleration/peanut-butter/etc.... AFAIK there is not combat impulse. I think the impulse acceleration is slower than warp. With Warp it is instant jump but for impulse it builds up?

 

 

 

Yep, and most of the time we see them fighting on screen they move very slowly in combat.

 

 

 

In Nemesis, did the E-E suffer damage before hand? I barely remember the movie.

 

 

 

I think so, but they did get the Impulse engines back online just before Picard order full Impulse.

 

 

 

Dude! Light travels 300,000 kilometers per SECOND! 3 million in ten seconds and 18 million in a minute! For 100 million kilometers then at light speed it would take a little over 5.5 minutes.

 

 

 

Typo, 150 million kilometers in just over 8 minutes.

 

 

 

Total travel time by the time it travelled 300,000 kilometers would be 21 seconds. 19 + 2 = 21. 0.047619C. Remember that it took 19 seconds before they were mentioned that they'd reach 300,000 kilometers in two seconds meaning they were already in flight for 19 seconds and another 2 to make it 300,000 kilometers.

 

 

 

Torpedoes are reported to fire on page 148 and impact stated to be in 19 seconds. UNSC Destroyer accelerates away and count down continues as the Torpedoes match then overcome the Desttoyer's velocity. At bottom of page 149 it is reported that the Torpedoes were 300,000 kilometers away and would impact in 2 seconds. Total travel time to cross 300,000 kilometers two seconds, high end range for Plasma Torpedoes assuming .5 C for total travel time 9 light seconds.

 

 

 

The info you give for Covenant and other Halo fluff, is it from the game itself or from books. If you are using game play/mechanics then a Covenant or whatever other ship used in sublight would not appear to do so. If you go by what is written then we'll go by dialogue in ST.

 

 

 

Books and games. For an example of Covenant acceleration take Halo 2: When they arrive at Delta Halo the way the scene goes heavily implies that it took no more than a couple minutes for the Prophet's Carrier to accelerate across tens of thousands of kilometers to Delta Halo. Also the games have not conclusively contradicted the books yet given we have mutiple in-game showings of acceleration that match up with what we see in the books.

 

 

 

What is worse for the Covenant is that the E-D can launch their torps while in warp and those torps can sustain warp speed. FTL torpedoes FTW!

 

 

 

Since when did the Ent-D get a magical competence boost? I don't believe I mention that in the OP.

 

 

 

Wow! I'm defending ST! lol

 

 

 

Yes, and it will come back to haunt you in SW Vs. ST debates. Possbily in the form of him on the ST side:

[enigma 521]

E-D has launched torps in warp. Haven't you seen the pilot episode?

[enigma 521]

So since the OP does not limit speed\acceleration, then E-D wins by launching torps while in warp.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

E-D has launched torps in warp. Haven't you seen the pilot episode?

 

 

 

One Episode Vs the combine Star Trek canon... did it also fire them at ships at sub-light speeds?

 

 

 

So since the OP does not limit speed\acceleration, then E-D wins by launching torps while in warp.

 

 

 

So how many showings of the Ent-D attacking other ships in normal space from Warp speed are there? And does it have enough Photon Torpedoes to take down shields rated in either the GT or low TT range? If not they would have to slow down to sub-light speeds and attack with Phasers.

[enigma 521]

There were at least two occurrences of the E-D firing torpedoes while in warp. One was in the pilot and the other in Best of Both Worlds.

 

 

 

The yield for a photon torpedo varies from what many Warsies stating to be in the KT range to the TNG Tech manual saying the yield is 64MT to Trekkies saying it is in the GT range.

[Praeothmin 532]

Wow, a lot of posts to cover.

 

 

 

Here goes:

 

 

 

You mean the Kig-yar who didn't have real warships and were fighting an enemy that didn't have warships and was mostly limited to slow moving asteroid bases?

 

 

 

Nope. While the Kig-Yar had no “true†warships, as in, not the biggest ones, their ships were well armed, and posed a threat to UNSC ships.

 

 

 

The UNSC had a warship that had been converted to a stealth ship but kept the same engines, and even when not using stealth mode, wasn’t that fast…

 

 

 

Anywhere from low thousands of kilometers up to 100,000 kilometers as standard, with one showing that can be taken as multi-light second range when we're told a pair of Plasma Torpedoes fired 19 seconds ago are about to cross 300,000 kilometers in 2 seconds (TFoR).

 

 

 

So?

 

 

 

(from SFJ):

 

 

 

In "A Matter of Honor," Riker suggests the supposedly unusual move of waiting until closing to 40,000 kilometres before the Klingons fire "all phasers and torpedoes." This is because transporters may readily operate at that range; this range is also noted in "The Best of Both Worlds." Riker cites a Starfleet policy of not shooting first as the reason for using this tactic. In "The Wounded," the Phoenix fires a full spread of photon torpedoes after an attack made by a Cardassian warship. Both attacks were made at approximately 300,000 kilometres. Phasers were powered up, but it is unclear if they were fired.

 

 

 

In "The Search" - 100,000 kilometers is "well within range" of the Jem'Hadar ships' weapons.

 

 

 

Cardassian system defense disruptors have a range of over 200,000 kilometers; targeting sequences may begin at 400,000-500,000 kilometers.

 

 

 

The Defiant's phaser beam may be adjusted to a width wide enough to envelop an entire comet. A standard burst at 10 kilometers broke the comet into three fragments, instead of evenly vaporizing it with a widebeam burst.

 

 

 

So range is equivalent in many occasions.

 

 

 

The fact they first state it would take an hour to remove the crust yet took out 30% of the crust in the opening volley proves this was some form of overcharged weapons attack and not normal firepower level (or do Star Trek ships fire a lot slower than I remember all of a sudden?).

 

 

 

But remember that they did not say 30% of the crust was “removedâ€, but only “destroyedâ€. This is as vague as can be, and can be explained by the fact that they would start by destroying the crust and then vaporizing the remains, or simply that the initial volley’s effect on the areas next to the impacts was also affected.

 

 

 

Didn't claim anything about special weapons just that they were using overcharged shots, and just because they fired the torpedoes means nothing since it is more likely their energy weapons were doing most of the damage. Also proof that the energy weapons we see are not NDF-like in some form (the fact the visuals don't match up with the claims is more proof that some form of NDF-like effect was going on).

 

 

 

How do the visuals not match up?

 

 

 

When using high resolution images, we do see “reddish†rings in the attack’s effects, signifying that some “fireballs†are indeed created by the attacks.

 

 

 

By the way, a HEAT round from a weapon creates its effects by exploding before it impacts, and the shockwave of compressed materials is what creates the damage.

 

 

 

Due to the noticed effects of Torpedoes, and the fact that they are M/AM weapons, it can very well be that they act as modern HEAT rounds.

 

 

 

Still no NDF “proof†or evidence…

 

 

 

And proof of this is? Given the visuals do not agree with a DET based attack removing 30% of the crust in the opening shots it is one way to explain it as a massie overcharge attack using NDF-like effects on max, which explains things pretty nicely and keeps it in line with standard MT range firepower

 

 

 

See above…

 

 

 

And it isn't, standard Halo space combat has ships fighting thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers from each other and ships accelerating at 1000+ Gs when needed.

 

 

 

Again, from SFJ:

 

 

 

The Borg, after dropping out of warp, crossed from Jupiter to Earth in an estimated 27 minutes. The Enterprise exits by Saturn, with an intended 23:14 intercept of the Borg vessel. Initial velocity is unknown, but it is reasonable to conclude that neither vessel was on track to overshoot Earth, and we may assume that the Borg vessel. Given Newton's equations of motion and the orbital dynamics of Earth, Jupiter, and Saturn, this would translate to roughly to 49-144,000g for the Borg cube and 134-331,000g for the Galaxy class starship.

 

 

 

Oh, I am not saying they can't accelerate up to those speeds, just that isn't what they fight at.

 

 

 

Right, just as fights in Halo books don’t all happen at those speeds either.

 

 

 

Yep, and most of the time we see them fighting on screen they move very slowly in combat.

 

 

 

Like in SoA (DS9), where the fleets, thousands of km away from each other, are within spitting range in seconds?

 

 

 

Look, I don’t mind accepting the higher figures for Halo, but you seem to disregard all the lower examples for Halo while discarding the higher for ST.

 

 

 

Doesn’t work that way, either use only the highest showings for both, or the lowest, or an average, but either way, use the same analysis method if you want to be seen as honestly debating…

 

 

 

Total travel time to cross 300,000 kilometers two seconds, high end range for Plasma Torpedoes assuming .5 C for total travel time 9 light seconds.

 

 

 

As mentioned above, the attack in “The Wounded†show weapons hitting after about 2 seconds as well, so equivalent weapons speed…

 

 

 

Since when did the Ent-D get a magical competence boost? I don't believe I mention that in the OP

 

 

 

About the same time the Covenant got one…

 

 

 

One Episode Vs the combine Star Trek canon... did it also fire them at ships at sub-light speeds?

 

 

 

Nope, many times across all ST series, so sorry, it cannot get discarded…

 

 

 

So how many showings of the Ent-D attacking other ships in normal space from Warp speed are there? And does it have enough Photon Torpedoes to take down shields rated in either the GT or low TT range? If not they would have to slow down to sub-light speeds and attack with Phasers

 

 

 

Please, show us how the shields from Covenant ships get rated at those low TT range?

 

 

 

 

[Kor_Dahar_Master 0]

One Episode Vs the combine Star Trek canon... did it also fire them at ships at sub-light speeds?

 

 

 

Firing torps at warp:-

 

 

 

They fire torps at warp in TNG: Encounter at farpoint, TNG: Best of both worlds, VOY: Dreadnought, VOY: Flashback, ENT: Shockwave Pt2, DS9: Treachery, Faith, and the Great River.

 

 

 

 

Warp strafing sub warp targets:-

 

 

 

TOS: Elaan of Troyius, TOS: Balance of Terror, TOS: The Ultimate Computer, TOS: Journey to Babel, in star trek the motion picture they fired at warp to pop the asteroid that obviously was not at warp.

 

 

 

Faster than warp combat:-

 

 

 

In VOY: Hope and fear they fire torps at slipstream velocities.

 

 

 

Examples of energy weapons fired at high warp:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DS9: Treachery, Faith, and the Great River a runabout and dominion fighters.

 

 

 

VOY: Message in a bottle The Prometheus and a Nebula-class starship.

 

 

 

Star Trek: Nemesis The Scimitar.

[Mr. Oragahn 0]

Hello guys!

 

 

 

Enterprise-D. Even if we go with the low-end photon torpedo yield of 64 megatons, that should be enough to take out about 20 to 30 Covenant ships, according to "Ghosts of Onyx", in which 14 nukes with a combined yield of 30 megatons take out 12 ships out of a16-ship fleet.

 

 

 

Several ships had been weakened and it seems that some of them were sacrificed to protect others.

 

 

 

And remember, it took at least thirty Covenant ships a day to glass an Earth-sized planet.

 

 

 

They seem to do it differently. Sometimes you get the impression that they used raw firepower, sometimes it's some silly geometric figures which make fuck sense.

 

They also tend to use large fleets to do so.

 

They also have some kind of plasma weapon which, based on some of my observations, would be rated at a couple of petawatts, based on the incident of one of such beams vaporizing a section of a river as it passed over.

 

 

 

The Obsidian Order - Tal'Shiar fleet of only twenty ships was expected to boil the Earth-sized Founder's Homeworld down to it's CORE in only six hours.

 

 

 

 

A pity that what happened didn't look like anything worth of that kind of firepower.

 

They probably were most likely pulling some technobabble weapons of rare rarity, surely.

 

 

 

3. The Ent-D has to be able to get in range of the Covenant ship. Given the Covenant ship has a standard higher weapons range and sub-light combat speed I am really doubting the Ent-D can get in range and stay close enough.

 

 

 

Depends on how they approach their target. If they like to fight at close range, there's little reason for them to warp out at long range and do the rest on sublight motion.

 

Not to say that Covenant ships may be good at linear accelerations (mass lightening involved btw?), but UFP ships have some of the highest maneuverabilities in SF.

 

 

 

It took them one hour to vaporize the oceans and melt the crust to an unknown depth. The first volley in The Die is Cast had them taking out 30% of the crust. I'm doubting that is normal and is far more likely a megacharged up attack that works mainly off the NDF effect (unlike Covenant glassing which we have as of TCP seen the charge time for Covenant plasma torpedoes) which would not have an effect on Covenant shields.

 

 

 

 

On a similar note, Covenant plasma torpedoes burn hulls (TFoR has such nice details), and some of the pictures and videos (cutscenes) we've seen of Covenant glassings (predating material from the game which cutscenes were showing the Covie ships drawing silly containment patterns - the containment is my suggestion btw), we could already see that the explosions stretched tendrils of flames in the most odd ways.

 

 

 

And things can change in two years. Which they have given the latest canon info confirms the higher end firepower (though I have really just tone down and go for the low single digit GT range which fits in nicely).

 

 

 

Of course it fits like if fits means totally borked in light of what UNSC ships could take. Ships which always remained threatened to a degree by the very standard weapons they used, either MACs or megaton nukes, would have as many chances of winning as a snowball in Hell.

 

Covenant ships, notably the largest, could only be threatened by a thousand UNSC ships. There's just that much of a difference.

 

Besides, I've heard that this abortion of common sense that the Encyclopedia was claims now that Covenant ships use antimatter. With an universe that keeps rewriting itself after each new product, and likes to toss silly figures...

 

 

 

 

And it isn't, standard Halo space combat has ships fighting thousands to tens of thousands of kilometers from each other and ships accelerating at 1000+ Gs when needed.

 

 

 

That's over 10 km/s².

 

I remember the Spirit of Fire having trouble escaping a few gees of sudden artificial gravity inside that small hollowed out planet in Halo Wars. It's the same game where they make a nonsensical slingshot around the artificial small star. A maneuver with limited interest since the star was immobile relative to the shell-world.

 

It's also an universe with ships that weigh less than air.

 

I'd even have to ask a bloke who goes by the nickname of l33telboi at SFJN and SBC about that stupid maneuver pulled by some UNSC warship around some planet, he has analyzed it.

 

 

 

And Archer missiles are small yield, even perhaps chemically powered. How the fuck can they get to 0.1c in very short time, or even ever get there to boot?

 

 

 

Star Trek: Nemesis that clone guy has time to react to the Ent-E moving at half or full Impulse - the Ent-E at close range slowly accelerates towards his ship and he has time to stand there in shock before impact.

 

 

 

It's quite an outlier, no? The brickish gracefulness of that ship... it made 0 sense as to why it just couldn't avoid it. Nor why they had to sit so close to each other.

 

It's even more stupid as the movie shows that the ships can even move around faster than that, notably when the E-E leaves that planet before going to warp: if such a ship can rotate that fast, there's no reason it couldn't apply the same change of momentum in a forward motion with even more efficiency (since after all rotating with thrusters on your back is not as practical as simply pushing forward).

 

And therefore, if the E-E could do that, why couldn't the Scimitar? Isn't it possible that the Scimitar had been hurt badly? Yup, it did take damage after a while.

 

 

 

The Torpedoes were fired 19 seconds before being reported as crossing 300,000 kilometers in 2 seconds. Otherwise known as .5 C.

 

 

 

Would those be relative speeds?

 

If the Covenant ship was already approaching at 0.05c...

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Wow, a lot of posts to cover.

 

 

 

Here goes:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope. While the Kig-Yar had no “true†warships, as in, not the biggest ones, their ships were well armed, and posed a threat to UNSC ships.

 

 

 

A danger to a UNSC that had taken damage to its reactor (IIRC they were not able to make full repairs, and IIRC it was also slightly damaged by the Shiva warheads the Commander dropped).

 

 

 

The UNSC had a warship that had been converted to a stealth ship but kept the same engines, and even when not using stealth mode, wasn’t that fast…

 

 

 

As I recall it was not a standard Firgate but a Light Frigate, and any showings of slow speed in the book are overruled by the games in which we have showings to back up the older books (End of Halo 1, Halo 2, and end of Halo 3).

 

 

 

So?

 

 

 

(from SFJ):

 

 

 

In "A Matter of Honor," Riker suggests the supposedly unusual move of waiting until closing to 40,000 kilometres before the Klingons fire "all phasers and torpedoes." This is because transporters may readily operate at that range; this range is also noted in "The Best of Both Worlds." Riker cites a Starfleet policy of not shooting first as the reason for using this tactic. In "The Wounded," the Phoenix fires a full spread of photon torpedoes after an attack made by a Cardassian warship. Both attacks were made at approximately 300,000 kilometres. Phasers were powered up, but it is unclear if they were fired.

 

 

 

In "The Search" - 100,000 kilometers is "well within range" of the Jem'Hadar ships' weapons.

 

 

 

Cardassian system defense disruptors have a range of over 200,000 kilometers; targeting sequences may begin at 400,000-500,000 kilometers.

 

 

 

The Defiant's phaser beam may be adjusted to a width wide enough to envelop an entire comet. A standard burst at 10 kilometers broke the comet into three fragments, instead of evenly vaporizing it with a widebeam burst.

 

 

 

So range is equivalent in many occasions.

 

 

 

Ok, point conceded.

 

 

 

But remember that they did not say 30% of the crust was “removedâ€, but only “destroyedâ€. This is as vague as can be, and can be explained by the fact that they would start by destroying the crust and then vaporizing the remains, or simply that the initial volley’s effect on the areas next to the impacts was also affected.

 

 

 

How do the visuals not match up?

 

 

 

When using high resolution images, we do see “reddish†rings in the attack’s effects, signifying that some “fireballs†are indeed created by the attacks.

 

 

 

By the way, a HEAT round from a weapon creates its effects by exploding before it impacts, and the shockwave of compressed materials is what creates the damage.

 

 

 

Due to the noticed effects of Torpedoes, and the fact that they are M/AM weapons, it can very well be that they act as modern HEAT rounds.

 

 

 

Still no NDF “proof†or evidence…

 

 

 

I'm just going to drop this point and let Mr. O go over it if he wants to.

 

 

 

Again, from SFJ:

 

 

 

The Borg, after dropping out of warp, crossed from Jupiter to Earth in an estimated 27 minutes. The Enterprise exits by Saturn, with an intended 23:14 intercept of the Borg vessel. Initial velocity is unknown, but it is reasonable to conclude that neither vessel was on track to overshoot Earth, and we may assume that the Borg vessel. Given Newton's equations of motion and the orbital dynamics of Earth, Jupiter, and Saturn, this would translate to roughly to 49-144,000g for the Borg cube and 134-331,000g for the Galaxy class starship.

 

 

 

And did they fight at these speeds? Also, FTL Impulse? Were they talking about the time that would go by on the Enterprise at those speeds?

 

 

 

Right, just as fights in Halo books don’t all happen at those speeds either.

 

 

 

The bulk of combat does (several dozen showings that have the ships being stated to be at X range or at least and idea of the range and accelerating across it in a short amount of time and fightings in other cases).

 

 

 

Like in SoA (DS9), where the fleets, thousands of km away from each other, are within spitting range in seconds?

 

 

 

Look, I don’t mind accepting the higher figures for Halo, but you seem to disregard all the lower examples for Halo while discarding the higher for ST.

 

 

 

I haven't watched DS9 beyond a couple clips on Youtube, but unless I am mistaken didn't they also slow down to standard on screen speeds once they were in range?

 

 

 

I'm not disregarding the Halo low end, I'm looking at the most common numbers (even if showings in TCP are lower than other books the Game Trilogy still supports the older books) and taking them for Halo, but given most of my ST knowledge is limited to TNG and a movie or two (and we all know why that is given how horrible VOY and ENT are for the mind) so its a bit harder for me to get put together all the pieces.

 

 

 

Doesn’t work that way, either use only the highest showings for both, or the lowest, or an average, but either way, use the same analysis method if you want to be seen as honestly debating…

 

 

 

I do try and go for the medium/average showings, just I'm mostly limited to TNG due to DS9 never being on, TOS only being on at 1 AM Saturday, and VOY and ENT... I don't think I really need to say anything more on those last two, do I?

 

 

 

About the same time the Covenant got one…

 

 

 

I never made the Covenant magically competent, just saying what average ship to ship combat is.

 

 

 

Nope, many times across all ST series, so sorry, it cannot get discarded…

 

 

 

Conceded since Kor listed them. At least now I know the reason I don't know about them: Most of them taking place in the series that causes eyes to melt.

 

 

 

Please, show us how the shields from Covenant ships get rated at those low TT range?

 

 

 

Halo Encyclopedia and the fact it takes two MAC rounds to down Covenant Destroyer shields.

 

 

 

Page 316 the Halo Encyclopedia

 

 

 

MAC GUN

 

The Magnetic Accelerator Cannon [MAC] Gun is one of the

 

largest [and best] weapons that the UNSC has in its fleet.

 

Utilizing thousands of magnetic relays, it can ram a 600-ton

 

projectile at nearly forty percent the speed of light. Able to

 

pulverize most Covenant ships in one to three blasts, these

 

weapons are mounted on all UNSC spaceships large enough to

 

hold them. Unfortunately, MACs are slow to fire and, due to

 

their size, require the entire ship on which they are built ti

 

maneuver in order to align fire. In the Fall of Reach, MAC Gun

 

barrages were able to destroy whole swaths of Covenant

 

Destroyers, but in the time it took for them to reload, faster

 

alien ships had already penetrated the Human defenses. Work

 

is constantly underway in hopes of upgrading these weapons

 

into faster, stronger, and more maneuverable models.

 

 

 

VARIANTS

 

 

 

STABILIZED VARIANT: The "Super" MAC or "Big" MAC is five-hundred

 

percent larger than the ship-based original and is capable of firing a

 

3,000-ton slug at nearly half the speed of light. Due to its size, a Super

 

MAC can only be stationed on planets or orbital weapons platforms.

 

 

 

600 tons at 40% C = 1.17 Teratons of TNT (please note the 117, this suggests someone did sone research on it).

 

3000 tons at 50% = 9.98 Teratons of TNT.

 

 

 

I was really just mentioning the TT range again to remind Enigma this will come back to haunt him in SW vs ST.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Hello guys!

 

 

 

Several ships had been weakened and it seems that some of them were sacrificed to protect others.

 

 

 

Good to see you Mr. O.

 

 

 

Yep, those ships had been damaged and were stated to be in the middle of making repairs when drawn into the trap.

 

 

 

They seem to do it differently. Sometimes you get the impression that they used raw firepower, sometimes it's some silly geometric figures which make fuck sense.

 

 

 

Seems like it can vary from type of weapon their using and what the exact objectives of the glassing operation in question are (Forerunner relic and such being on the planet).

 

 

 

They also tend to use large fleets to do so.

 

 

 

Not really, only took 36 ships in TFoR, and we know the Covenant have multiple fleets numbering in the mid to high hundreds with at least one over a thousand.

 

 

 

They also have some kind of plasma weapon which, based on some of my observations, would be rated at a couple of petawatts, based on the incident of one of such beams vaporizing a section of a river as it passed over.

 

 

 

I don't think we were given an idea of how large that river was in TCP. Also it may have been the ship that craves the Covenant Symbol into the planet since we know other ships were charing up Plasma Torpedoes.

 

 

 

Depends on how they approach their target. If they like to fight at close range, there's little reason for them to warp out at long range and do the rest on sublight motion.

 

 

 

Agreed. Though it does look like they may attempt long range it looks like after all, wouldn't last long since the Covenant ship can make a tac jump to close the distance again.

 

 

 

Not to say that Covenant ships may be good at linear accelerations (mass lightening involved btw?), but UFP ships have some of the highest maneuverabilities in SF.

 

 

 

Most showings have high accelerations with only 3-4 outliers (and yes, there does appear to be some form of mass lighting involved given that four Covenant ships detected in Slipspace, mistaken for a single object, at 20,000 tons was stated to be larger than any known Covenant vessel), and their high maneuverability would give them a good chance to try and dodge Plasma Torpedoes at range.

 

 

 

On a similar note, Covenant plasma torpedoes burn hulls (TFoR has such nice details), and some of the pictures and videos (cutscenes) we've seen of Covenant glassings (predating material from the game which cutscenes were showing the Covie ships drawing silly containment patterns - the containment is my suggestion btw), we could already see that the explosions stretched tendrils of flames in the most odd ways.

 

 

 

Plasma Torpedoes seem to vary against targets: Against spaceships the Covenant seem to just keep the plasma contained and melt through them, but when fired at planes it explodes like a nuclear weapon. ANd I agree, either containment or its the symbols they crave into planets (as I've said many times before though I don't have Evolutions to confirm some things). And I assume your taling about the Halo Wars scene? I don't recall anything werid about that.

 

 

 

Of course it fits like if fits means totally borked in light of what UNSC ships could take. Ships which always remained threatened to a degree by the very standard weapons they used, either MACs or megaton nukes, would have as many chances of winning as a snowball in Hell.

 

Covenant ships, notably the largest, could only be threatened by a thousand UNSC ships. There's just that much of a difference.

 

 

 

TFoR states that a MAC shot can cripple or destroy all but the most largest UNSC warships. Given that latest canon information puts MACs closer to Covenant glassing levels I'm doubting their theartened by lesser weapons. Also where do we see UNSC threaten by Megaton range nukes?

 

 

 

Besides, I've heard that this abortion of common sense that the Encyclopedia was claims now that Covenant ships use antimatter. With an universe that keeps rewriting itself after each new product, and likes to toss silly figures...

 

 

 

The Covenant have been using Antimatter since the first game (Cortana mentions they musted have used an Antimatter charge to take out the MAC), this retcon at least allows Covenant glassing operations to make some sense. How Halo firepower really goes all depends on the new updated and revised versions of the first three books.

 

 

 

That's over 10 km/s².

 

I remember the Spirit of Fire having trouble escaping a few gees of sudden artificial gravity inside that small hollowed out planet in Halo Wars. It's the same game where they make a nonsensical slingshot around the artificial small star. A maneuver with limited interest since the star was immobile relative to the shell-world.

 

It's also an universe with ships that weigh less than air.

 

I'd even have to ask a bloke who goes by the nickname of l33telboi at SFJN and SBC about that stupid maneuver pulled by some UNSC warship around some planet, he has analyzed it.

 

 

 

Easily reconciled by the Slipspace drive they dropped in it, those things have a history of making the local laws of physics cry.

 

 

 

And Archer missiles are small yield, even perhaps chemically powered. How the fuck can they get to 0.1c in very short time, or even ever get there to boot?

 

 

 

Sameway the Spartans with jetbacks chased after the ship going at 100 million KPH: Accelerated after it. Can't confirm it but Evolutions from what I've heard has retcon Archers to having nuclear warheads.

 

 

 

Alos, I believe there are two Star Trek episodes in which chemical explosives proved to more powerful than the Photon Torpedoes of the Enterprise. So Halo having overpowered chemical weapons isn't anything new.

 

 

 

It's quite an outlier, no? The brickish gracefulness of that ship... it made 0 sense as to why it just couldn't avoid it. Nor why they had to sit so close to each other.

 

It's even more stupid as the movie shows that the ships can even move around faster than that, notably when the E-E leaves that planet before going to warp: if such a ship can rotate that fast, there's no reason it couldn't apply the same change of momentum in a forward motion with even more efficiency (since after all rotating with thrusters on your back is not as practical as simply pushing forward).

 

And therefore, if the E-E could do that, why couldn't the Scimitar? Isn't it possible that the Scimitar had been hurt badly? Yup, it did take damage after a while.

 

 

 

True, its been a while since I watched Nemesis. Pointed conceded.

 

 

 

 

 

Would those be relative speeds?

 

If the Covenant ship was already approaching at 0.05c...

 

 

 

The pair of Covenant Frigates came to stop, turned, and fired Plasma Torpedoes which chased the UNSC Destroyer down.

[Praeothmin 532]

Wow, Mac guns are powerful... O_O

 

 

 

And Prophet, DS9 and ENT were good shows, the latter starting at season 2, while I agree Voyager was mostly bad.

 

I think for the moment, I will concede firepower to Halo until I've re-read the books, but STL and range are close, while maneuverability is definitely in the ST camp, allowing ships to evade shots that UNSC ships couln't even hope to evade...

 

 

 

 

[Mith 0]

1. Those ships had just been in 2-3 battles no more than half an hour before and were in the middle of making repairs. Start of TFoR mentions that a Covenant ships shields would need to be

 

 

 

Let's try that again, shall we? We know that some of the ships had taken damage--we don't know the extent of the damage the fleet had taken and it's incredibly unlikely that the ships would be so crippled that they'd be incapable of blocking a fraction of the energy you claim they can. It also makes me question the wisdom of the fleet commander given that when his ships were incapable of blocking a mere fraction of said full capacity--he decided to attack a force that would easily be able to toss that out at them.

 

 

 

Also, as per my viewing of Halo 2, those MACs weren't at all that fast or impressive.

 

 

 

2. Halo Canon policy New>Old.

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Halo Legends come out after the TMs? As in, where we saw Booster Frames being capable of blasting their way through the command ship in the middle of the Covenant fleet? And we saw regular missiles being able to damage ships? Even assuming MAC based technology, there's no way these ships should have lost shielding to something as small as say, a fucking Booster Frame if it can take capital ship level nuking.

 

 

 

3. The Ent-D has to be able to get in range of the Covenant ship. Given the Covenant ship has a standard higher weapons range and sub-light combat speed I am really doubting the Ent-D can get in range and stay close enough.

 

 

 

Based on what? We saw that in The Wounded, the Phoenix was able to hit a target within at least 200,000 km. We know from Voyager that ships can travel at .8c and so logically, the torpedoes would have to travel even faster to hit those ships. In other words, we're talking anything from 8.c up to 9.9c--possibly at c itself. Given the speeds that MACs supposedly move at, this would make them incredibly useless.

 

 

 

 

 

It took them one hour to vaporize the oceans and melt the crust to an unknown depth. The first volley in The Die is Cast had them taking out 30% of the crust. I'm doubting that is normal and is far more likely a megacharged up attack that works mainly off the NDF effect (unlike Covenant glassing which we have as of TCP seen the charge time for Covenant plasma torpedoes) which would not have an effect on Covenant shields.

 

 

 

Ah, what wonderful way to ignore ST higher end and shove in your asinine high ends. Face it, both universes have examples of ships possibly being in the high end range of weapons. But we both know that both of them are more or less outliers. The fact is, plasma torpedoes are stated not to work in a way we're used to by Bungie employees themselves and we know that their ships can't exceede megaton range. Those mines and the Booster Frames make this painfully obvious.

 

 

 

As for your MACs...we know your ships are light enough to float on water. I highly doubt they'd be able to fire shells that massively powerful or even carry them given their massive weight densities compared to the rest of the ship. As I've suggested before, we're looking at mass reduced weapons. It's the only logical explination and the fact that their ships are so light seems to reinforce this idea. And if not...well, it's an outlier and we sure as hell don't see these MACs firing that fast in the game. Ever.

[Mith 0]

Yep, those ships had been damaged and were stated to be in the middle of making repairs when drawn into the trap.

 

 

 

Which is again, retarded. If UNSC ships were regularly capable of tossing out gigaton level firepower, not only would 30 megaton mines be absurdly retarded to have onboard--but it also makes me wonder why they'd bother to use them to destroy ships that are so crippled that they themselves would be able to assrape them. Also, how very lucky that they hit the one ship still capable of defelcting teraton firepower...right? Even more fortunate that the fleet commander for the Covenant was so amazingly stupid that he sent his crippled fleet into battle.

 

 

 

To give a comparison, it would be like a modern US Admiral sending his ships into battle when they could be sunk by muskets due to previous battle damage. Because that's exactly the same sort of gap we're looking at here. Funny how all your arguments rely on the characters being ungodly stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seems like it can vary from type of weapon their using and what the exact objectives of the glassing operation in question are (Forerunner relic and such being on the planet).

 

 

 

 

 

In other words, you'll say that they can have non-DET effects...except during glassing operations and combat. Because then obviously they use teratons of firepower even though its hundreds of times more inefficient than the technobabble way.

 

 

 

Not really, only took 36 ships in TFoR, and we know the Covenant have multiple fleets numbering in the mid to high hundreds with at least one over a thousand.

 

 

 

...And? Again, if you want to go with wank yields, I can point to TDiC where almost half that amount was stated to do a great deal more in a great deal less time.

 

 

 

Most showings have high accelerations with only 3-4 outliers (and yes, there does appear to be some form of mass lighting involved given that four Covenant ships detected in Slipspace, mistaken for a single object, at 20,000 tons was stated to be larger than any known Covenant vessel), and their high maneuverability would give them a good chance to try and dodge Plasma Torpedoes at range.

 

 

 

So...that reinforces the idea that the UNSC uses mass reduction.

 

 

 

 

 

TFoR states that a MAC shot can cripple or destroy all but the most largest UNSC warships. Given that latest canon information puts MACs closer to Covenant glassing levels I'm doubting their theartened by lesser weapons. Also where do we see UNSC threaten by Megaton range nukes?

 

 

 

Given that they all use mass reduction, I really can't imagine that they'd be able to create teraton explosions. That's not even taking into account relative velocity.

 

 

 

The Covenant have been using Antimatter since the first game (Cortana mentions they musted have used an Antimatter charge to take out the MAC), this retcon at least allows Covenant glassing operations to make some sense. How Halo firepower really goes all depends on the new updated and revised versions of the first three books.

 

 

 

Yeah...chances are they're not going to change those parts.

 

 

 

Easily reconciled by the Slipspace drive they dropped in it, those things have a history of making the local laws of physics cry.

 

 

 

Handwaving at its finest.

 

 

 

How about an actual argument now?

 

 

 

Sameway the Spartans with jetbacks chased after the ship going at 100 million KPH: Accelerated after it. Can't confirm it but Evolutions from what I've heard has retcon Archers to having nuclear warheads.

 

 

 

So...mass reduction?

 

 

 

Alos, I believe there are two Star Trek episodes in which chemical explosives proved to more powerful than the Photon Torpedoes of the Enterprise. So Halo having overpowered chemical weapons isn't anything new.

 

 

 

Two really? Can we see them? And even if they were, they're massive outliers.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Let's try that again, shall we? We know that some of the ships had taken damage--we don't know the extent of the damage the fleet had taken and it's incredibly unlikely that the ships would be so crippled that they'd be incapable of blocking a fraction of the energy you claim they can. It also makes me question the wisdom of the fleet commander given that when his ships were incapable of blocking a mere fraction of said full capacity--he decided to attack a force that would easily be able to toss that out at them.

 

 

 

True. On the Fleet Master going after the humans he still had 16 ships vs their 4. He could afford to lose ships to take them out. I doesn't matter since the Halo Encyclopedia is still higher canon at this time.

 

 

 

Also, as per my viewing of Halo 2, those MACs weren't at all that fast or impressive.

 

 

 

You mean the same game where we see both SMAC stations and ships open up the moment the Covenant fleet enters the kill zone - and are still BvR? Also Halo 3 overrules it by showing of MT range explosions on the Keyship.

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Halo Legends come out after the TMs? As in, where we saw Booster Frames being capable of blasting their way through the command ship in the middle of the Covenant fleet? And we saw regular missiles being able to damage ships? Even assuming MAC based technology, there's no way these ships should have lost shielding to something as small as say, a fucking Booster Frame if it can take capital ship level nuking.

 

 

 

The stories are canon, but the visuals per Frank O'Conner can not be taken as accurate.

 

 

 

Based on what? We saw that in The Wounded, the Phoenix was able to hit a target within at least 200,000 km. We know from Voyager that ships can travel at .8c and so logically, the torpedoes would have to travel even faster to hit those ships. In other words, we're talking anything from 8.c up to 9.9c--possibly at c itself. Given the speeds that MACs supposedly move at, this would make them incredibly useless.

 

 

 

Already conceded on weapons range. Also please prove they fight at high C speeds given we never see that anywhere I can recall, and both BoBW and FC (Movie) so them not fighting at high C speeds.

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, what wonderful way to ignore ST higher end and shove in your asinine high ends.

 

I'm not, I simply corrected him on standard Covenant glassing operations, and pointing out that TDiC can be explain by the standard treknobabble and an overcharged super shot that leaves the ship defenseless for a time.

 

 

 

Face it, both universes have examples of ships possibly being in the high end range of weapons. But we both know that both of them are more or less outliers.

 

 

 

I can agree there are plenty of outliers, but the fact remains there are still far to many high ends in Halo that even have support in the games. IF the new novels show and Halo Reach conclusively prove it wrong I will concede.

 

 

 

The fact is, plasma torpedoes are stated not to work in a way we're used to by Bungie employees themselves and we know that their ships can't exceede megaton range. Those mines and the Booster Frames make this painfully obvious.

 

 

 

And you will of course give us this quote in which Bungie explicitly says Covenant weapons are not pure DET? Becuase the only quote I know of on the matter doesn't mean much currently simply because it doesn't give enough infomration. And the Booster Frames are lower canon than both books and games and are contradicted by higher canon throughout (take for exmaple Halo rings appearing in orbit of Covenant home worlds... yeah, nice of Halo Legends to go and attempt to f**k over the higher canon games).

 

 

 

As for your MACs...we know your ships are light enough to float on water. I highly doubt they'd be able to fire shells that massively powerful or even carry them given their massive weight densities compared to the rest of the ship. As I've suggested before, we're looking at mass reduced weapons. It's the only logical explination and the fact that their ships are so light seems to reinforce this idea. And if not...well, it's an outlier and we sure as hell don't see these MACs firing that fast in the game. Ever.

 

 

 

And the fact their ships are so light proves nothing unless you happen to have a quote that proves this use it to fire the MAC. Because until then Occam’s Razor frowns upon you. But lets say they do use to fire the MAC round, guess what? Unless you prove that its on the round itself the moment it leaves the MR field generated by the ship it is a 600 ton slug moving at 40% the speed of light for a grand total of 1.17 Teratons. And on Halo 2 I will once more point out that the first shots we see are fired at BvR when Cortana goes loud. Also the same game in which Cortana considers detonating a Frigates to be enough to wipe out High Charity.