Are ST ships as badly designed as SW ships?

[enigma 521]

Just to let you know there are instances in TNG and DS9 in which a Federation starship is destroyed from only one torpedo (not counting ST:SfS when one torpedo was all that was needed to obliterate a fully shielded Oberth class starship ).

[Praeothmin 532]

Point is the potential is there, unlike voyager where the ship was crippled and crashing on a barren snowball

 

 

 

Point is, there were never mentioned AFAIK, not even in the novel, so we should not assume they had them...

 

 

 

 

 

Still doesnt prove the entire ship could survive without all their toys

 

 

 

You know what?

 

I have to say that I agree with that.

 

Voyager survived because it doesn't really have a neck section, the Dominion ships are "boxier" then Fed ships, and the saucer was the perfect shape to survive the crash.

 

But I do agree that, say, a Constitution-class ship crashing like Voyager or the E-D saucer did would more then likely see it's saucer being sheared away by the impact...

 

 

 

Also, the cartoon you so like to ignore and make fun of shows some impressive resistance feats for smaller SW ships in semi-controlled crashes...

 

And the absence of people being projected forward as the ship stops indicates a very strong possibility of the SW version of the Inertial Dampeners...

 

 

 

 

 

Klingon designs arent as silly as UFP ones

 

 

 

Funny you should say that, because Enigma an I both agree they are, with the protruding Warp Nacelles like on Fed ships, and their thin neck sections...

 

 

 

 

 

Dont actually remember them saying everything was powered by M/AM

 

 

 

When have you seen a Fed ship explode from a small impact or explosion when not hit in its Engineering section (thus near the M/AM core and pods)?

 

 

 

 

 

You mean the same sensors that have problems tracking FTL objects, blind spots,allow ferengi hiding in craters to lay ambushes at close range, have lost track of ships in asteroid fields, been baffled by, radiation, magnetic poles, electrical storms, lagrange points, and nebulae. Yup clearly superior.

 

 

 

Yes, the same sensors that can detect the number and type of lifeforms on incoming vessels, or the exact number of lifeform on a colony, or pinpoint the exact location of power sources on enemy ships even through shields, the same kind of sensors that know when a member of Species 8472 is walking on the hull of Voyager, the kind of sensors that would have had Stormtroopers detect the "shielded" parts of the MF, and would have allowed the security detail to think about the occupants of the vessel hiding there, because a few minutes before would have detected the lifepods being ejected and no lifeforms on them...

 

The same kinds of sensors that allows starfleet officers to detect anything that attaches tiself to a ship's hull, thus they would have known the MF wasn't gone...

 

Yep, clearly superior...

 

 

 

 

 

By all means prove that they should have been able to figure out they were hiding, the bridge officers didnt know the MF hyperdrive was broken

 

 

 

They couldn't, because their sensors are so crappy.

 

Had their sensors allowed them to detect things attaching themselves to their hull, they would have.

 

Had their sensors been good enough to follow the movements of the MF until it went behind the tower, they could have suspected, and could have swepped the area visually using Ties...

 

Which they couldn't, because of crappy sensors...

 

 

 

 

 

Just big enough to lose ships in asteroid fields, and allow ferengi to hide in craters, and in lagrange points

 

 

 

You mean, the kind of sensors that allowed the E-D to detect the Pegasus in the center of that asteroid?

 

While the Imperial bombers doing sweeps of the asteroids couldn't detect the MF?

 

See, for any example you can find to try to make ST sensors look as bad as SW ones, I can find twice as many to show the exact opposite.

 

 

 

 

 

Requires much assumption. We know other ships can see behind them, and turrets can rotate, the ICS drawings are from the FRONT, Most the weapons on an ISD are too small to see anyway, and we've never seen anyone attack an ISD from the rear.

 

 

 

Nope, just some logic...

 

The turrest can rotate, except the guns can't shoot down in the angle behind the engines, because of the angling of the hull where they are located...

 

All the point defense defense guns that we've seen yet come from the trenches, and the ventral shots came from the MTL positioned around the launch bays...

 

 

 

 

 

No worse than feddies getting ambushed by ferengi hiding in craters

 

 

 

Answered above...

 

 

 

 

 

Which is quite irrelevant since its impossible to know how much energy it takes to expose them

 

 

 

Nope, not irrelevant.

 

We are currently talking about bad designs, and how having your Shield Generators in easily targettable location (on top of the highest structure of your ship) is bad.

 

As far as the necessary power to destroy them, we'd have to fall back in the power of the ships, a debate we've had in the past and where neither of us budged one inch, so I certainly do not wish to start that over again...

 

 

 

 

 

Never said it'd take only one. Now a Nubian Royal Starship on the other hand

 

 

 

How big is it?

 

It took an 80-100 meter long vessel (larger then the Nubian Royal Starship) after many unshielded hits to take a GCS down...

 

Try again...

 

 

 

Yup right at the beginning of the battle

 

 

 

Really?

 

I'll have to check it out...

 

Still, one example out of many others showing higher hull strength...

 

 

 

 

 

And knock out shields to the bridge, In the meantime the ST ship could have been rammed by gods knows how many TIEs, and shot god knows how many times by TLs

 

 

 

Yeah, like a Tie ramming a GCS would do anything, they barely destroy 1-2 meter asteroids when they hit them...

[enigma 521]

Just a slight clear up. The Executor, an SSD was the one that had the sensor\shield dome blown up and subsequently had an A-wing crash into the bridge.

 

 

 

From Wookieepedia,

 

In 4 ABY, the Executor's relatively short life came to a crashing end above the Forest Moon of Endor. During the Battle of Endor, the Executor led a massive Star Destroyer armada in trapping the Rebel Fleet between itself and the Death Star battlestation. However, the Rebels turned the tables on the Empire by attacking the Executor at point-blank range. A concentrated assault on the Executor at the climax of the battle brought down the massive Super Star Destroyer's bridge deflector shields, before a wayward A-wing starfighter, piloted by Arvel Crynyd, crashed into the Executor's command bridge. With navigation failing, the Executor was sucked into the gravity well of the Death Star and collided with the battlestation, disintegrating on impact.

 

 

 

The Rebel fleet targetted the SSD at point blank range, bringing down the shields and destroying the dome. Seconds later the A-wing crashed into the bridge. During the next few seconds the ship's navigation was failing and was pulled into the DS 2 by it's gravity well. Then KABLAMMO!

 

 

 

Besides it would not make sense that the bridge deflector shields were lost by saying that it was because of the destruction of the dome since the bridge had two of them. Makes more sense that the Rebel fleet concentrated on the bridge until it's shields were lost and then the dome got hit and subsequent A-wing crash.

[Praeothmin 532]

Just a slight clear up. The Executor, an SSD was the one that had the sensor\shield dome blown up and subsequently had an A-wing crash into the bridge.

 

 

 

From Wookieepedia,

 

 

 

 

 

The Rebel fleet targetted the SSD at point blank range, bringing down the shields and destroying the dome. Seconds later the A-wing crashed into the bridge. During the next few seconds the ship's navigation was failing and was pulled into the DS 2 by it's gravity well. Then KABLAMMO!

 

 

 

Besides it would not make sense that the bridge deflector shields were lost by saying that it was because of the destruction of the dome since the bridge had two of them. Makes more sense that the Rebel fleet concentrated on the bridge until it's shields were lost and then the dome got hit and subsequent A-wing crash.

 

 

 

As I explained in another thread, shields in SW can be "angled", and "doubled", so it makes sense that the reason they have two Shield Generators is to have better protection for the bridge, since it's in an exposed location...

 

By losing one Generator, and as you pointed out, after having the crap beaten out of them by the entire Rebel fleet, the remaining shield wasn't powerful enough, or perhaps they couldn't angle the remaining one well enough to do anything to stop the A-Wing from crashing in them...

 

But the events remain:

 

-A-Wing shoots the dome;

 

-Officer shouts they lost Bridge Deflectors;

 

And the guide to vehicules says they are both Sensors and Shield Generators...

[Questor 501]

As I explained in another thread, shields in SW can be "angled", and "doubled", so it makes sense that the reason they have two Shield Generators is to have better protection for the bridge, since it's in an exposed location...

 

By losing one Generator, and as you pointed out, after having the crap beaten out of them by the entire Rebel fleet, the remaining shield wasn't powerful enough, or perhaps they couldn't angle the remaining one well enough to do anything to stop the A-Wing from crashing in them...

 

But the events remain:

 

-A-Wing shoots the dome;

 

-Officer shouts they lost Bridge Deflectors;

 

And the guide to vehicules says they are both Sensors and Shield Generators...

 

 

 

Did we have this argument somewhere else?

 

 

 

You are presenting a simplistic version of that set of scenes. And doing it in a dishonest way.

[Praeothmin 532]

Did we have this argument somewhere else?

 

 

 

In the SD quantification thread, IIRC...

 

 

 

 

 

You are presenting a simplistic version of that set of scenes.

 

 

 

Didn't think it warranted a detailed, second-by-second analysis...

 

 

 

 

 

And doing it in a dishonest way.

 

 

 

Really?

 

How so?

 

Why is the guy arguing that these domes are Sensors and Shield Generator domes, thus agreeing with the SW book that says they are such, which even respects the order of the events in the movie, which also conveniently esplains what happened, doing so in a dishonest way?