Can the Star War Empire afford an invasion against UFP

[Jason 27]

While the Star Wars Empire may be able to over run the UFP. It will not be cheap mission to say the least. It could cost the Empire to say the least most star destoryer. Leaving the Empire whide open for rebles to take over.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

While the Star Wars Empire may be able to over run the UFP. It will not be cheap mission to say the least. It could cost the Empire to say the least most star destoryer. Leaving the Empire whide open for rebles to take over.

Depends on the time frame

[Mith 0]

Well, no.

 

 

 

Taking the Federation is going to require a large, massive fleet that the Empire simply can't take away from their fight against the Rebels. We can see this from their inability to take out Mon Calamari because the Rebels had stretched the already thin Imperial fleet thin, like Frodo over the one Ring.

 

 

 

To say the least, an invasion with even weapon odds would require tens of thousands of ships, not to mention thousands of credits being poured into searching and establishing new lanes in Federation space. Unfortunately, Imperial ships are not even close to being on par with their Federation counterparts. As we know, their highest yield capabilities, range up to 5-15 megatons if we assume a literal translation from Revenge of the Sith. More reasonable interpretations suggest kilotons to low megatons.

 

 

 

We know that a stolen Klingon Bird of Prey was capable of using a full spread to destroy a 'few hundred' kilometers of the planet's surface, suggesting 1,025 megatons. If we extrapolate that and use it as a basis for what ships can take, we know then that ST ships have low range gigaton weapons. Even 15 megatons vs. 1,025 megatons isn't even a contest. It would require hundreds of thousands of ships to invade the Federation--and then if we have the Klingons (who are allies) join in, the game goes even further to hell. More so if the Federation decides to deploy superweapons.

 

 

 

The only way the Empire might be able to afford such an action is if they manage to keep the Death Star from going bottle up, as the station is capable of taking out any planet that rebels against the Empire. But if that goes--or if Palpy decides to use it against the Federation (and chances are, he will after the first three months prove entire armadas can be taken down by one ship), then chances are he's also going to lose that when Starfleet notices the ventelation shaft or just notice that parts of the shield will drop up to 20% and fire a concentrated volley on those portions of the shield to allow them to get at the armor beneath it.

 

 

 

Or they turn it into a moon with the genesis technology

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Shouldnt you be crying over at SFJ

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Beside all you need to wipe out the UFP is 3 star destroyers

[Mith 0]

Beside all you need to wipe out the UFP is 3 star destroyers

 

 

 

Highly unlikely. You'd note that in the Clone Wars movie that the Republic was desperate to get the Hutt lanes when the CIS mined all the current ones. The reason for that, to which if you look in the EU, is that the SW ships cannot make blind hyperspace jumps safely (at least not capital ships, fighters seem to be able to). So much so that without the Hutt lanes, the Republic war effort was basically brought to a grinding halt.

 

 

 

So no, that's not possible. Second, it's highly unlikely that three Imperials are capable of taking out the Empire. I suppose you're probably trying to go for the Saxton claims, but as we've seen in multiple EU sources, their GT firepower is as often seen as Spock is.

 

 

 

Looking again, to Apocalypse Rising, A Klingon BoP is stated to be able to take care of anyone within a 'few hundred kms or Gorwon's base camp. This suggests at least a yield of 1,025 megatons. It is possible of course, that it could be a Class X torpedo, which has shown to have a higher yield, but even then it's not likely to be all that much higher than all their other torpedoes, given that it could also be deployed against starships.

 

 

 

But if you're willing to put up an actual argument, rather than making ad hominems, I'd be happy to debate it.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Highly unlikely. You'd note that in the Clone Wars movie that the Republic was desperate to get the Hutt lanes when the CIS mined all the current ones. The reason for that, to which if you look in the EU, is that the SW ships cannot make blind hyperspace jumps safely (at least not capital ships, fighters seem to be able to). So much so that without the Hutt lanes, the Republic war effort was basically brought to a grinding halt.

 

 

 

So no, that's not possible. Second, it's highly unlikely that three Imperials are capable of taking out the Empire. I suppose you're probably trying to go for the Saxton claims, but as we've seen in multiple EU sources, their GT firepower is as often seen as Spock is.

 

 

 

Looking again, to Apocalypse Rising, A Klingon BoP is stated to be able to take care of anyone within a 'few hundred kms or Gorwon's base camp. This suggests at least a yield of 1,025 megatons. It is possible of course, that it could be a Class X torpedo, which has shown to have a higher yield, but even then it's not likely to be all that much higher than all their other torpedoes, given that it could also be deployed against starships.

 

 

 

But if you're willing to put up an actual argument, rather than making ad hominems, I'd be happy to debate it.

Like how you "debate" at SB?

[Mith 0]

Like how you "debate" at SB?

 

 

 

Ad hominem.

 

 

 

Again.

 

 

 

By the way, do I know you or something? You seem to have this firmly lodged up your ass.

[Jason 27]

Earth solar systom defense have been most likley uper grade during domunlian war. Also longer starships design only for combat most likley stored in Earth solar systom. So Empire worst lose might will come when Enter Earth solar systom. Also spell check not working on this form.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Well, no.

 

 

 

Taking the Federation is going to require a large, massive fleet that the Empire simply can't take away from their fight against the Rebels. We can see this from their inability to take out Mon Calamari because the Rebels had stretched the already thin Imperial fleet thin, like Frodo over the one Ring.

 

 

 

*Face to plam* Mith, the quote in that debate shot you in the foot because it pretty mush just said the Imperials did not want to take Mon Cal at that time, not that they couldn't. Also *Points at Endor* Yep, I can see all those planets that went over to the rebels tipping them off to the trap because a fraction of the Imperial Starfleet had to be elsewhere.

 

 

 

To say the least, an invasion with even weapon odds would require tens of thousands of ships, not to mention thousands of credits being poured into searching and establishing new lanes in Federation space. Unfortunately, Imperial ships are not even close to being on par with their Federation counterparts. As we know, their highest yield capabilities, range up to 5-15 megatons if we assume a literal translation from Revenge of the Sith. More reasonable interpretations suggest kilotons to low megatons.

 

 

 

I'm going to quote a person from SciForums (also from FactPile and appears to also be a former SBer).

 

 

 

Originally Posted by L-W at SciForums.

 

 

 

The small town bit isn’t particularly useful unless you can define the are of a small town. Although given your track record, your affinity for vague and unquantified statements should really come as to no surprise.

 

 

 

At its maximum size, the surface temp of the fireball is 7000 degrees Celsius (although this also assumes that a turbolaser behaves like a nuclear blast. Hint: It doesn’t), sufficient temperature for vaporization. For a nuclear detonation at peak scaling, the fireball radius in feet is equal to 145 times the yield in kt to 0.35. In other words, the formula is r=145*y^0.35 , where Y is KT and R is in feet.

 

 

 

Now here is how it gets tricky, how big is a small town? My hometown in Israel is classified as a village by local standards, but has a population of 20,000 and a surface area of 6.8 square miles. Thus the yield required to vaporize (not just blast) the area would be 151 MT (consistent with the lighter guns). But Exeter, Rhode Island, with its population of 6,000 (United States law states that anything smaller than 10,000 is classified as a “small†town – whereas large town have populations of 100,000’s) has a surface area of 57.71 square miles, requiring a yield of 3,735 MT (nearly 4 gigatons to vaporize). So depending on how big the town gives you different yields. And that’s taking a simplistic look at it by comparing temperatures. Specific heats enter into it so really you should figure out the energy applied over and area and scale it (which would actually make the blast larger than the 200 gigaton figure written in the ICS) according to the composition of the judicial area, which could raise the energy necessary for total vaporization of the surface area by over an order of magnitude.

 

 

 

Of course you could just simply be a borderline Creationist moron that assumes that each every turbolaser is built the same for the exact same purpose, whereas we know of dozens of variants designed for specific tasks (artillery, point-defence, heavy, anti-armour, bombardment etc.).

 

 

 

We know that a stolen Klingon Bird of Prey was capable of using a full spread to destroy a 'few hundred' kilometers of the planet's surface, suggesting 1,025 megatons. If we extrapolate that and use it as a basis for what ships can take, we know then that ST ships have low range gigaton weapons. Even 15 megatons vs. 1,025 megatons isn't even a contest. It would require hundreds of thousands of ships to invade the Federation--and then if we have the Klingons (who are allies) join in, the game goes even further to hell. More so if the Federation decides to deploy superweapons.

 

 

 

Yep, and that's why those 4. something kilojoule shields on that station were seen as being worth wasting a torp on. Oh, and don't forget on ship numbers that just Kuat along could put out 1,000 ISD size ships a year...and that is just ONE MAJOR SHIPYARD IN JUST ONE SYSTEM ALONE. And even so they can still just Hyperspace in after probes have the lanes set up in a few months, bomb the cities on planets and flee. You can win every battle but still lose the war.

 

 

 

The only way the Empire might be able to afford such an action is if they manage to keep the Death Star from going bottle up, as the station is capable of taking out any planet that rebels against the Empire. But if that goes--or if Palpy decides to use it against the Federation (and chances are, he will after the first three months prove entire armadas can be taken down by one ship), then chances are he's also going to lose that when Starfleet notices the ventelation shaft or just notice that parts of the shield will drop up to 20% and fire a concentrated volley on those portions of the shield to allow them to get at the armor beneath it.

 

 

 

Second DS would not have the ventelation shaft problem. Also, prove that the shields would drop 20%. I'm going have to check my copy of The Death Star later, but I believe after that first planet is destroyed by it in the book mountain size rocks moving at fractions of C nit the shields and just bounce off.

 

 

 

Highly unlikely. You'd note that in the Clone Wars movie that the Republic was desperate to get the Hutt lanes when the CIS mined all the current ones. The reason for that, to which if you look in the EU, is that the SW ships cannot make blind hyperspace jumps safely (at least not capital ships, fighters seem to be able to). So much so that without the Hutt lanes, the Republic war effort was basically brought to a grinding halt.

 

 

 

*Face to plam* Mith, that was because they could get the already charted out routes in only a couple days vs weeks to map out new ones. So, if your forces are cut off from theur supplies and you have the following choices, which one do you go with:

 

 

 

1. Look for new routes to reach forces. This could take weeks or even months depending on terrain will your forces are destroyed and overran due to lack of supplies.

 

 

 

2. There are others farther away, but will allow you to get supplies to your forces in time and it takes less then say 4 days.

 

 

 

So no, that's not possible. Second, it's highly unlikely that three Imperials are capable of taking out the Empire. I suppose you're probably trying to go for the Saxton claims, but as we've seen in multiple EU sources, their GT firepower is as often seen as Spock is.

 

 

 

Why is the Empire attacking itself?

 

 

 

Looking again, to Apocalypse Rising, A Klingon BoP is stated to be able to take care of anyone within a 'few hundred kms or Gorwon's base camp. This suggests at least a yield of 1,025 megatons. It is possible of course, that it could be a Class X torpedo, which has shown to have a higher yield, but even then it's not likely to be all that much higher than all their other torpedoes, given that it could also be deployed against starships.

 

 

 

Yep, that is why the Ent couldn't blow that 10 kilometer partly hollow rock up with anything less then most of its 250-300 Photon Torps, right?

 

 

 

And before you ask, yes, you do know me. Just change one word in my name.

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Ad hominem.

 

 

 

Again.

 

 

 

By the way, do I know you or something? You seem to have this firmly lodged up your ass.

Irrelevant point/ hyperbole accepted as gospel truth again. I dont know why Aratech seems to think you got better.

[Mith 0]

*Face to plam* Mith, the quote in that debate shot you in the foot because it pretty mush just said the Imperials did not want to take Mon Cal at that time, not that they couldn't. Also *Points at Endor* Yep, I can see all those planets that went over to the rebels tipping them off to the trap because a fraction of the Imperial Starfleet had to be elsewhere.

 

 

 

Really?

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Wizard of the Coast, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds

 

Rebel ships were dispatched to protect the sector.

 

 

 

Meanwhile the shipyards began turning out warships at dizzying speed...

 

 

 

Imperial forces harried the fringes of the Calamari Sector but shied away from a showdown, wary of committing too many forces to such a remote region with the Rebels causing trouble across the galaxy. Following the battle of Yavin, the Calamarian Council reversed itself and agreed to become part of the Rebellion. Nearly four years later, Admiral Ackbar led Mon Calamari's finest warships to victory at the Battle of Endor.

 

 

 

Sounds like they couldn't spare the forces to me. Want to try again?

 

 

 

I'm going to quote a person from SciForums (also from FactPile and appears to also be a former SBer).

 

 

 

Lol. Still using other people's arguments to fight your battles Prophet?

 

 

 

The small town bit isn’t particularly useful unless you can define the are of a small town. Although given your track record, your affinity for vague and unquantified statements should really come as to no surprise.

 

 

 

At its maximum size, the surface temp of the fireball is 7000 degrees Celsius (although this also assumes that a turbolaser behaves like a nuclear blast. Hint: It doesn’t), sufficient temperature for vaporization. For a nuclear detonation at peak scaling, the fireball radius in feet is equal to 145 times the yield in kt to 0.35. In other words, the formula is r=145*y^0.35 , where Y is KT and R is in feet.

 

 

 

Now here is how it gets tricky, how big is a small town? My hometown in Israel is classified as a village by local standards, but has a population of 20,000 and a surface area of 6.8 square miles. Thus the yield required to vaporize (not just blast) the area would be 151 MT (consistent with the lighter guns). But Exeter, Rhode Island, with its population of 6,000 (United States law states that anything smaller than 10,000 is classified as a “small†town – whereas large town have populations of 100,000’s) has a surface area of 57.71 square miles, requiring a yield of 3,735 MT (nearly 4 gigatons to vaporize). So depending on how big the town gives you different yields. And that’s taking a simplistic look at it by comparing temperatures. Specific heats enter into it so really you should figure out the energy applied over and area and scale it (which would actually make the blast larger than the 200 gigaton figure written in the ICS) according to the composition of the judicial area, which could raise the energy necessary for total vaporization of the surface area by over an order of magnitude.

 

 

 

Your argument is a load of bullshit. Want to know what a small town looks like? Try Accident Maryland, which has a total size of .5 sq miles or 1.3 kilometers. And that's not even the smallest town in America. I can and have found smaller, though Accident is fairly small itself. However, in order to vaporize a town that has a basic radius of .5 miles, all you need is a 1.5 megaton nuclear bomb to effectively (not 100% literally you twerp) vaporize that town, with an air-burst fireball of 820 meters (slightly over .5 miles).

 

 

 

So really, my assertion of 5-15 megatons was generous. I could find an even smaller town and still come up with a lower yield. So in reality, its a blast of 1-5 megatons. As for claiming they don't work like nuclear weapons, well they may not. But then again, you'd need to quantify how they work then.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course you could just simply be a borderline Creationist moron that assumes that each every turbolaser is built the same for the exact same purpose, whereas we know of dozens of variants designed for specific tasks (artillery, point-defence, heavy, anti-armour, bombardment etc.).

 

 

 

Hey dipshit, how about you don't take one of the largest example of a small town in America? Most small towns are located in the 15-30 sq mile range, as opposed to 57 sq miles, which are the largest. Oh right, that would mean being honest.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, and that's why those 4. something kilojoule shields on that station were seen as being worth wasting a torp on.

 

 

 

You mean the shield that was so pathetically armed that the entire crew save for the alien imposter thought as so laughable that they utterly refused to fire upon it, despite being brainwashed and led to believe that this was their mortal enemy?

 

 

 

Oops. And they're going to waste the thousands, maybe millions of credits in this project because...why? And again, even if they get a few, they'll still be facing Federation defenses. Not to mention that they'd be basically aiming in the dark. They'd first need a basic outline of UFP space to make sure they don't cause the entire quadrant to turn on them and since they don't and they probably don't care anyway, we can conclude that they'll probably piss off the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Klingons, the Tholians, the Sheliak (who by the way, tossed the Enterprise D away like a kitten playing with a mouse), and a host of other races.

 

 

 

And even if they did manage to locate a rough map of the UFP, they then have to hit critical points, not just outlying systems.

 

 

 

Oh, and don't forget on ship numbers that just Kuat along could put out 1,000 ISD size ships a year...and that is just ONE MAJOR SHIPYARD IN JUST ONE SYSTEM ALONE.

 

 

 

Oh I see, letting Leo do your debating for you, eh? Alright, start coughing up the numbers.

 

 

 

And even so they can still just Hyperspace in after probes have the lanes set up in a few months, bomb the cities on planets and flee. You can win every battle but still lose the war.

 

 

 

Oh, so cute. A bit of problem that they wouldn't be able to hit those cities due to the inaccuracy of mapping out hyperlanes and basically hitting random planets.

 

 

 

Second DS would not have the ventelation shaft problem. Also, prove that the shields would drop 20%. I'm going have to check my copy of The Death Star later, but I believe after that first planet is destroyed by it in the book mountain size rocks moving at fractions of C nit the shields and just bounce off.

 

 

 

Planetary shields are known to have power fluctuations of up to 20% in their shield grids. Its how torpedo spheres take them down; they locate the areas, bombard the fuck out of them, and then fire turbolasers at the surface generators. Given that their shield technology is based off the same basics, then logically all shielded craft will have power fluctations in their shield grid.

 

 

 

 

 

*Face to plam* Mith, that was because they could get the already charted out routes in only a couple days vs weeks to map out new ones. So, if your forces are cut off from theur supplies and you have the following choices, which one do you go with:

 

 

 

1. Look for new routes to reach forces. This could take weeks or even months depending on terrain will your forces are destroyed and overran due to lack of supplies.2.

 

 

 

There are others farther away, but will allow you to get supplies to your forces in time and it takes less then say 4 days.

 

 

 

How is this any different than what I've said? Also note that this will take even longer, since the Republic is already familiar with their galaxy, where as they are not with the ST galaxy. This suggests an even longer times to build a hyperlane.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, that is why the Ent couldn't blow that 10 kilometer partly hollow rock up with anything less then most of its 250-300 Photon Torps, right?

 

 

 

Lol. Kinda funny how your little brother made similar claims. Nor do we know what sort of destruction the Enterprise was looking at, so your claim is nothing more than a lower limit, not a higher one.

 

 

 

And before you ask, yes, you do know me. Just change one word in my name.

 

 

 

Wasn't really saying I didn't. It's fairly obvious by your novice tactics and your screen name who you are. Unless you also claim to be Invader as well.

[Mith 0]

Irrelevant point/ hyperbole accepted as gospel truth again. I dont know why Aratech seems to think you got better.

 

 

 

Why is it irrelevant? What is your reasoning for declaring it as such? It was an analysis given by Damar on what they should do to get rid of the imposter. His suggestion was to bombard the base which would take care of the High Council and everyone within a few hundred kilometers. There's absolutely no reason to believe he's lying or engaged in hyperbole. It would likely be a class X torpedo, but that's not a big deal, given that we know Voyager had at least three.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Really?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like they couldn't spare the forces to me. Want to try again?

 

 

 

Yeah, lets take a closer look at it, shall we?

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Wizard of the Coast, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds

 

Rebel ships were dispatched to protect the sector.

 

 

 

Meanwhile the shipyards began turning out warships at dizzying speed...

 

 

 

Imperial forces harried the fringes of the Calamari Sector but shied away from a showdown, wary of committing too many forces to such a remote region with the Rebels causing trouble across the galaxy. Following the battle of Yavin, the Calamarian Council reversed itself and agreed to become part of the Rebellion. Nearly four years later, Admiral Ackbar led Mon Calamari's finest warships to victory at the Battle of Endor.

 

 

 

It doesn't say they couldn't spare the ships, just that they were busy elsewhere.

 

 

 

And oh, lets not forget that by the time of the Battle of Endor you have what, six Mon Cal cruisers built? Yeah, that is surely huge threat to an Empire with tens of thousands of ships just as powerful or more powerful.

 

 

 

Also: Hey! Battle of Endor over here Mith! Look at how the rebels found out about the trap when all those systems turned to their side after the tiny fraction of the Imperial fleet was called in...Oh, never mind they were able to without letting the rebels know gather a fleet that could crush the shipyards at Mon Cal.

 

 

 

Lol. Still using other people's arguments to fight your battles Prophet?

 

 

 

And posting something someone else used is wrong as long as they are acknowledge as the poster...how? If I quote a someone I acknowledge that it was not my post or work.

 

 

 

*Snip*

 

 

 

And notice he mentioned right after the nearly 4 GT part that he said different sized towns give different yields. The fact is it is a vague statment from RoTS that can give low to mid to high MT and low GT yields.

 

 

 

You mean the shield that was so pathetically armed that the entire crew save for the alien imposter thought as so laughable that they utterly refused to fire upon it, despite being brainwashed and led to believe that this was their mortal enemy?

 

 

 

The fact they consider even using a torp when Phasers would have done the job is damning enough. I mean if they want the shields down they could have had Data pop out the airlock and kick it a couple times, as Aratech said.

 

 

 

Oops. And they're going to waste the thousands, maybe millions of credits in this project because...why? And again, even if they get a few, they'll still be facing Federation defenses. Not to mention that they'd be basically aiming in the dark. They'd first need a basic outline of UFP space to make sure they don't cause the entire quadrant to turn on them and since they don't and they probably don't care anyway, we can conclude that they'll probably piss off the Romulans, the Cardassians, the Ferengi, the Klingons, the Tholians, the Sheliak (who by the way, tossed the Enterprise D away like a kitten playing with a mouse), and a host of other races.

 

 

 

*Points at 160 km and 900km balls-O-doom, then points at 25,000 ISDs that costed around 3 billion credits each*

 

Yeah, credits does not seem to be a problem there. And why are they doing it? So they know where to strike at, or are you suggesting they be complete idiots and just jump around in Hyperspace until they hit something?

 

Quantify standard Federation planetary defenses.

 

And do you know how they are going to get that basic outline of Fed space Mith?

 

Probe Droid Spam.

 

And how are they going to piss off the rest of the AQ with a few thousand probe droids?

 

Or are they all insane and attack anything on sight now because they don't know what it is?

 

 

 

And even if they did manage to locate a rough map of the UFP, they then have to hit critical points, not just outlying systems.

 

 

 

And? It only takes a few months for the Empire to have the maps they need because of the probe droids.

 

 

 

Oh I see, letting Leo do your debating for you, eh? Alright, start coughing up the numbers.

 

 

 

Fine, I'll get you the numbers you've seen before at least a trillion dozen times.

 

Oh, and what is wrong with mentioning this just because Leo said it?

 

 

 

Oh, so cute. A bit of problem that they wouldn't be able to hit those cities due to the inaccuracy of mapping out hyperlanes and basically hitting random planets.

 

 

 

Proof of inaccuracy in mapping out Hyperlanes and what that has to do with hitting the citites with TL. In the end all that matters is they spam enough of those super cheap droids to know everything they need to know about the area, then have an ISD or any old ship pop in for several seconds and fire a few hundred shots at the target.

 

 

 

Planetary shields are known to have power fluctuations of up to 20% in their shield grids. Its how torpedo spheres take them down; they locate the areas, bombard the fuck out of them, and then fire turbolasers at the surface generators. Given that their shield technology is based off the same basics, then logically all shielded craft will have power fluctations in their shield grid.

 

 

 

Quote or link please.

 

 

 

How is this any different than what I've said? Also note that this will take even longer, since the Republic is already familiar with their galaxy, where as they are not with the ST galaxy. This suggests an even longer times to build a hyperlane.

 

 

 

You want to claim it will take forever (note that I am exaggerating 'forever') for the Empire to scout out the Federation because the GR would have taken a couple weeks to map out new lanes...and say it will take longer in the AQ.

 

Lets look at the fact (OH MY GOD, I'M ABOUT TO MENTION SOMETHING LEO USED! ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!) that with thouands of probe droids they mapped out several lanes through the 10,000 LY super dense star clusters of the Deep Core that is a poorly explored region. Federation space is nothing like the galactic core with plenty of room between stars, making it far easier to map out. I put an upper limit of one year before the Empire has all the info it needs through spaming probe droids to attack...and how nice that means 1,000+ new ISDs to attack with.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol. Kinda funny how your little brother made similar claims. Nor do we know what sort of destruction the Enterprise was looking at, so your claim is nothing more than a lower limit, not a higher one.

 

 

 

And so what? I'm bring it up as a counter. Oh, and my taking a little thing from SDN my little bro did (OH MY GOD! CLEARLY I AM SOME SORT OF STRANGE WIERD CREATURE OF PRUE EVIL!)it would take nearly a teraton to vaporize the asteroid...off-topic but wow, you can do about the same thing a Plasma turret on a falling apart Covenant ship powered by the weaker also falling apart human ship did with one shot to a 3km asteroid in FS.

 

 

 

Wasn't really saying I didn't. It's fairly obvious by your novice tactics and your screen name who you are. Unless you also claim to be Invader as well.

 

 

 

Novice? Ok, what am I doing that's novice? And nope, I'm not Invader.

 

 

 

Anyways *Points GDI Ion IGNORE Cannon at Mith and fires*

[InvaderSkooj 1]

Why is it irrelevant? What is your reasoning for declaring it as such? It was an analysis given by Damar on what they should do to get rid of the imposter. His suggestion was to bombard the base which would take care of the High Council and everyone within a few hundred kilometers. There's absolutely no reason to believe he's lying or engaged in hyperbole. It would likely be a class X torpedo, but that's not a big deal, given that we know Voyager had at least three.

Take care of them how? tuck them in to bed at night? Make them brunch? Knock down their houses? Irradiate their lawns with fallout?

 

 

 

 

 

Also love how you bought into JMS's one torpedo bullshit, when the quote mentions a spread of torpedoes(plural as in more than one) Yup remember how it used to be 4-6 torpedoes

[Mith 0]

Take care of them how? tuck them in to bed at night? Make them brunch? Knock down their houses? Irradiate their lawns with fallout?

 

 

 

Cute, but as you demonstrate below, you already know the answer. Still, I shall provide it:

 

 

 

DAMAR: Personally, I think we'd be better off launching an orbital assault on Gowron's command centre. A full spread of photon torpedoes would take care of him, the Klingon High Command and everyone else within a few hundred kilometres.

 

ODO: You should ask Dukat for some shore leave. I think you've been in space too long.

 

DAMAR: Why? Because I'm willing to spill a little Klingon blood to get the job done?

 

O'BRIEN: Shelling Ty'Gokor won't get the job done. You'd be lucky to launch one torpedo before they shot you down. Besides, even a dozen won't penetrate the shielding around the command centre.

 

 

 

 

 

Also love how you bought into JMS's one torpedo bullshit,

 

 

 

Um...what?

 

 

 

when the quote mentions a spread of torpedoes(plural as in more than one) Yup remember how it used to be 4-6 torpedoes

 

 

 

Oh I see. No, you fail to understand, but this isn't surprising.You probably misremember. Allow me to clear it up for you:

 

 

 

 

JMS:

 

With regard to endangering everything within hundreds of kilometers, I'm afraid it's not an issue of distribution. One way or another, you need to come up with multiple gigatons to distribute much energy at that kind of radius; it doesn't really matter if the torpedoes are a couple km apart or a couple cm apart.

 

 

 

There's a similar reference in "A Time to Stand," in which an asteroid base gets pegged by 90 isotons - enriched ultritium at work. In this case, the base isn't some super-fortress, as Ty'Gykor is; in this case, we have the very explicit dangerous radius of 800 kilometers mentioned.

 

 

 

In any case, we've seen that shields on a GCS are generally powered by fusion reactors, and our only detailed station example uses a fusion reactor, so we would expect Ty'Gykor to run on fusion power, meaning that it wouldn't necessarily have much in the way of secondary explosions due to onboard antimatter.

 

 

 

It is, as far to my knowledge, the only post he made in that thread. His idea wasn't about using only one torpedo, so much that it is that the warbird is targeting one immobile base. Therefore, there's no reason to assume that they'd be firing torpedoes all over the place. Even a few kilometers wouldn't really affect the results. That's the point.

[Mith 0]

Okay, this web browser has eaten my post twice. Let's see if third time's the charm:

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, lets take a closer look at it, shall we?

 

 

 

Lets.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Wizard of the Coast, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds

 

Rebel ships were dispatched to protect the sector.

 

 

 

Meanwhile the shipyards began turning out warships at dizzying speed...

 

 

 

Imperial forces harried the fringes of the Calamari Sector but shied away from a showdown, wary of committing too many forces to such a remote region with the Rebels causing trouble across the galaxy. Following the battle of Yavin, the Calamarian Council reversed itself and agreed to become part of the Rebellion. Nearly four years later, Admiral Ackbar led Mon Calamari's finest warships to victory at the Battle of Endor.

 

 

 

It doesn't say they couldn't spare the ships, just that they were busy elsewhere.

 

 

 

So in other words, they weren't available. To give you an idea of just what that means, the Mon Calamari defense fleet has enough to possibly defeat an attack squadron--ie, 18 ships consisting of scouts, pursuit ships, frigates, and cruisers in addition to one Imperal Star Destroyer. Thus, logically in order to utterly demolish the Mons, they'd only need two or maybe three attack squadrons. And yet, the Empire didn't have enough ships to take them out.

 

 

 

Why is that Prophet?

 

 

 

And oh, lets not forget that by the time of the Battle of Endor you have what, six Mon Cal cruisers built? Yeah, that is surely huge threat to an Empire with tens of thousands of ships just as powerful or more powerful.

 

 

 

And this has jack shit to do with what?

 

 

 

Also: Hey! Battle of Endor over here Mith! Look at how the rebels found out about the trap when all those systems turned to their side after the tiny fraction of the Imperial fleet was called in...Oh, never mind they were able to without letting the rebels know gather a fleet that could crush the shipyards at Mon Cal.

 

 

 

And? This still doesn't prove anything. The Battle of Endor was a) guarding the largest Imperial asset and a trap that would have crippled if not right ended the Rebel Alliance. It sure as hell would have gutted the Rebel fleet and leave them without a leader.

 

 

 

 

 

And posting something someone else used is wrong as long as they are acknowledge as the poster...how? If I quote a someone I acknowledge that it was not my post or work.

 

 

 

It becomes a problem when all your arguments are just reflections of other people's work. And you'll find out why it's a problem soon enough.

 

 

 

 

 

And notice he mentioned right after the nearly 4 GT part that he said different sized towns give different yields. The fact is it is a vague statment from RoTS that can give low to mid to high MT and low GT yields.

 

 

 

And? That doesn't make his statement any less false and biased. For one thing, he used the largest examples he could find as far as towns go. He chose one of the largest small towns he could find and then immediately decided that total area = literal representation of a town. And here, you'll see a similar argument to Darkstar's or Oraghan's. And that argument is that you're using a literal interpretation when it isn't warrented and it drastically affects weapons yields.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how familiar you are with American literature, but take it from one who is (or don't, I don't care which, you'll see why soon). American literature makes use of 'vaporization' to describe large thermal effects, not the literal designation for such. These are more in the term of flavor words, or as my work would label it, 'sizzel words'. Take for example, a resturant advertising sizziling wings. Does that mean that the wings are literally sizziling? No. Or how about, ice cold lemonade? A literal interpretation would lead us to believe that the lemonade is literally so cold that it's formed into ice, when in fact it just means really, really cold.

 

 

 

The same applies here. There is no reason why we should believe that a town is going to be literally vaporized. As it is, if it's anything like Japan's bombing, it's going to create a massive firestorm from cars and other highly combustable things being exposed to a massive (and I do mean massive) fireball. And this in fact, makes your argument rather say...weak. More than likely we should look at the area of the firestorm, which would fulfill a reasonable extent of the author's comments.

 

 

 

In fact, it makes me wonder if you truly know the horror of a firestorm. Allow me to quote a rather good source:

 

 

 

A 1 megaton nuclear bomb creates a firestorm that can cover 100 square miles. A 20 megaton blast's firestorm can cover nearly 2500 square miles. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were small cities, and by today's standards the bombs dropped on them were small bombs.

 

 

 

The Allied firebombing of nearly 150 cities during World War Two in Germany and Japan seldom destroyed more than 25 square miles at a time, and each of those raids required upwards of 400 planes, and thousands of crewmembers going into harm's way. It was not done lightly. And, they did not leave a lingering legacy of lethal radioactive contamination.

 

 

 

In the span of a lunch hour, one multi-warhead nuclear missile can destroy more cities than all the incendiary raids in history, and the only thing the combatant needs to do to carry off such a horror is to sit in air-conditioned comfort hundreds or even thousands of miles away, and push a button. He would barely have to interrupt his lunch. With automation, he wouldn't even have to do that! The perpetrator of this crime against humanity may never have seen his adversary. He only needs to be good at following the simplest of orders. A robot could do it. One would think, that ONLY a robot WOULD do it.

 

 

 

Nuclear war is never anything less than genocide.

 

 

 

The developing firestorm is what the survivors of the initial blast will be worrying about -- if they can think straight at all. Many will have become instantly "shell-shocked" -- incapacitated and unable to proceed. Many will simply go mad. Perhaps they are among the "lucky" ones, as well.

 

 

 

The firestorm produces hurricane-force winds in a matter of minutes. The fire burns so hot that the asphalt in the streets begins to melt and then burn, even as people are trying to run across it, literally melting into the pavement themselves as they run. Victims, on fire, jump into rivers, only to catch fire again when they surface for air. Yet it is hard to see even these pitiable souls as the least lucky ones in a nuclear attack.

 

 

 

For the survivors of the initial blast who do not then die in the firestorm that follows, many will die painfully over the next few weeks, often after a brief, hopeful period where they appear to be getting better. It might begin as a tingling sensation on the skin, or an itching, which starts shortly after the blast. These symptoms are signs that the body is starting to break down internally, at the molecular level. The insides of those who get a severe dose of gamma radiation, but manage to survive the other traumas, whose organs had once been well defined as lungs, liver, heart, intestines, etc., begin to resemble an undefined mass of bloody pulp. Within days, or perhaps weeks, the victim, usually bleeding painfully from every hole and pore in their body, at last dies and receives their final mercy.

 

 

 

But this too will probably not be how most victims of a nuclear attack will die.

 

 

 

That is what a nuclear firestorm will do to a nuked area. But just to show you some more: http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/nuclearexplosionsimulator/

 

 

 

First, locate Accident, Maryland. Then put in a 2 kiloton nuclear bomb and make sure that it's on hybrid. The result, as you will note, will show that the minimal size of the firestorm is going to at least cover a .64 km radius with a probable of .88 km, more than enough firepower to ensure that anything in that town is not going to live.

 

 

 

Now let's do your pal's town, Exeter, Rhode Island, shall we? Well, as we can easily see, it's much larger. Let's do the 2 kt nuke, which we see, while is rather effective, doesn't exactly put the entire town in the firestorm, although as you can guess, it's not going to be pleasent for anyone in the town.

 

 

 

Let's go to 15 kt. As you can see, the bulk of the town, save for the outskirts, is pretty much going to be caught in a massive firestorm. Let's check the 100 kt option shall we--and we see that the firestorm is much more than capable of turning the entire town into a burning hell hole. Or 1 megaton, which as we can see, creates even further damage.

 

 

 

So as you can see, your friend's argument is rather a massive failure to understand American literature and what a nuclear weapon will actually do.

 

 

 

Second, if I wanted to, I could obtain much larger yields for Damar's quotes. Notice how instead of choosing the smallest possible results as I did, your friend chose one of the largest towns he could find that fit the category. Just going up to say, up to 798.8 kilometers, the result is a 30,000 megaton nuclear warhead.

 

 

 

The fact they consider even using a torp when Phasers would have done the job is damning enough. I mean if they want the shields down they could have had Data pop out the airlock and kick it a couple times, as Aratech said.

 

 

 

Wow, way to take the entire scene out of context. Or did you and Aratech forget that the entire lie fed to them was that they were fighting an enemy at a stalemate--ie, they both would have required roughly the same technology. And yet, when they meet the homebase--the heart and mind of their enemy's operations, it's capable of going down with one torpedo. Compare this to DS9, a former Cardassian station enhanced with Federation technology; required an entire armada of Klingon ships to bring down its shields. Countless disruptor blasts and numerous photon torpedoes. Or hell, even a Federation starship, that requires at least half a dozen in most cases.

 

 

 

And yet, this station would easily be destroyed by one photon torpedo. Their reactions was to the sheer stupidity of the incident, not whether or not they could take it out with a phaser. It should at the very leats, take a dozen or so torpedoes, not just one. It had exactly jack shit to do with their photon torpedoes.

 

 

 

*Points at 160 km and 900km balls-O-doom, then points at 25,000 ISDs that costed around 3 billion credits each*

 

Yeah, credits does not seem to be a problem there. And why are they doing it? So they know where to strike at, or are you suggesting they be complete idiots and just jump around in Hyperspace until they hit something?

 

Quantify standard Federation planetary defenses.

 

And do you know how they are going to get that basic outline of Fed space Mith?

 

Probe Droid Spam.

 

And how are they going to piss off the rest of the AQ with a few thousand probe droids?

 

Or are they all insane and attack anything on sight now because they don't know what it is?

 

 

 

1) The cost of those ISDs were immense. They literally spent several system worth of credits on entire ships. That doesn't show a large budget--it shows a budget that's been mostly spent on single, massive ships. And infact, when the ISD was first proposed, the argument over it nearly split the newly formed Galactic Empire, it was that costly. And this is in addition to the cost of the SSD and the Death Star, not to mention patrol ships, cruisers, scouts, and frigates. Is it really a wonder why their fighters are flying pieces of shit with armor equal to most forms of tinfoil hats?

 

 

 

2) Are you just naive? There is no nation in existence that would accept a foreign, unknown power to send spies through its land. Not in the time of Abraham, not in our time, and certainly not with races that live near, or are xenophic races. So yes, they will attack those probes and then they're going to have a bone to pick with the dumbasses that sent them into their territory.

 

 

 

And? It only takes a few months for the Empire to have the maps they need because of the probe droids.

 

 

 

Based on what? Where is your evidence for this?

 

 

 

Fine, I'll get you the numbers you've seen before at least a trillion dozen times.

 

Oh, and what is wrong with mentioning this just because Leo said it?

 

 

 

Fine, go ahead and post them. You'll soon learn why.

 

 

 

Proof of inaccuracy in mapping out Hyperlanes

 

 

 

Dude, their entire war effort came to a halt in territory they were familiar with for hundreds of years. Now you think they can just magically find more in a few months in a galaxy they've never been to?

 

 

 

and what that has to do with hitting the citites with TL.

 

 

 

Well Prophet, unless TLs have intestellar ranges (and they don't), they're not going to do jack shit without an established hyperlane.

 

 

 

In the end all that matters is they spam enough of those super cheap droids

 

 

 

Those super cheap droids cost 24,500 credits each.

 

 

 

to know everything they need to know about the area, then have an ISD or any old ship pop in for several seconds and fire a few hundred shots at the target.

 

 

 

So your plan is to send in several ships into an area that you just established and fire off a few shots--despite the fact that they'll probably set off every alarm on the planet and cause them to raise shields. And this is assuming there's not a hostile ship in the area, in which case they're going to kick said ISD's sorry ass all the way back to Coruscant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote or link please.

 

 

 

Imperial Sourcebook:

 

Planetary shields are never uniformly even. They experience power anomalies and energy fluctuations just like other mechanical devices. The Torpedo Sphere parks in orbit around a planet and trains its DERs upon the world to search for weak points in the shielding. These weak points rarely exceed more than 20 percent power drop, but this is enough for the Torpedo Sphere to bring down the shields.

 

 

 

Under Torpedo Sphere. Given that their shielding technology is based off the same thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Death Star--or even a ISD is going to have the same problems.

 

 

 

 

 

You want to claim it will take forever (note that I am exaggerating 'forever') for the Empire to scout out the Federation because the GR would have taken a couple weeks to map out new lanes...and say it will take longer in the AQ.

 

 

 

Based on what? The core? That's a pretty shitty argument.

 

 

 

Lets look at the fact (OH MY GOD, I'M ABOUT TO MENTION SOMETHING LEO USED! ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!) that with thouands of probe droids they mapped out several lanes through the 10,000 LY super dense star clusters of the Deep Core that is a poorly explored region. Federation space is nothing like the galactic core with plenty of room between stars, making it far easier to map out. I put an upper limit of one year before the Empire has all the info it needs through spaming probe droids to attack...and how nice that means 1,000+ new ISDs to attack with.

 

 

 

Yeah and what was the return on that? Oh right, several hyperlanes. Even if you want to argue a 400% increase, at most we're looking at what, about thirty lanes in weeks or months? And this is again, already a part of space that the Republic is somewhat familiar with. And again, they'd probably be losing probes that have to drop out of hyperspace to scan a planet while being on the surface.

 

 

 

So anyways, it's in your court now.

[Mith 0]

Oh dear, I forgot to give you some quantification on planetary defenses. Well, as we've seen in TOS and TNG, even penal colonies and science outposts have planetary shields. In fact, Kirk was somewhat surprised when Memory Alpha didn't have a planetary shield, to which he was notified that it was open to all and wasn't all that important strategically.

 

 

 

We also know that starbases can provide significant defenses. Even DS9, often refered to as a small station by the UFP (which considering the size of their more modern spacedock-type stations, is rather understandable). Spacedocks, assuming any form of armament and shielding, would provide an enormous obstacle against any armada attacking a system. An older model exists over Earth herself.

 

 

 

We've also seen that the Mars Defense Parimeter composed of at least three attack ships (instantly destroyed by the Borg though) and we know that planets can have orbital weapons platforms or ground base defenses. That's not including any nearby starships that might quickly respond to the crisis as well.

[Ado Mortumee 500]

Okay, this web browser has eaten my post twice. Let's see if third time's the charm:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lets.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Wizard of the Coast, Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds

 

Rebel ships were dispatched to protect the sector.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So in other words, they weren't available. To give you an idea of just what that means, the Mon Calamari defense fleet has enough to possibly defeat an attack squadron--ie, 18 ships consisting of scouts, pursuit ships, frigates, and cruisers in addition to one Imperal Star Destroyer. Thus, logically in order to utterly demolish the Mons, they'd only need two or maybe three attack squadrons. And yet, the Empire didn't have enough ships to take them out.

 

 

 

Why is that Prophet?

 

 

 

Because 1. They were not consider a major threat at that time. 2. Most of the Starfleet (besides the 10% in the Deep Core) was chasing down the main rebel fleet and other minor cells etc. If the Empire wanted Mon Cal taken down, it would be taken down.

 

 

 

And this has jack shit to do with what?

 

 

 

It shows that Mon Cal is not a large enough threat because it is puny campared to just the KDY shipyards in Kuat alone.

 

 

 

And? This still doesn't prove anything. The Battle of Endor was a) guarding the largest Imperial asset and a trap that would have crippled if not right ended the Rebel Alliance. It sure as hell would have gutted the Rebel fleet and leave them without a leader.

 

 

 

All ture, but that doesn't change the fact that G canon shows that if the Empire had consider Mon Cal a large enough threat at that time they could easily had mustered the forces without it being noticed or having any impact elsewhere.

 

 

 

It becomes a problem when all your arguments are just reflections of other people's work. And you'll find out why it's a problem soon enough.

 

 

 

The small town isn't something I'm agruing really, I just found it to be interesting on this point and thought I would bring it up.

 

 

 

 

 

*Snip on nuclear effects*

 

 

 

Fine, I'll drop this point. I just found it an interesting counter and throught I bring it up was all.

 

 

 

1) The cost of those ISDs were immense. They literally spent several system worth of credits on entire ships. That doesn't show a large budget--it shows a budget that's been mostly spent on single, massive ships.

 

 

 

Yes, and that was the point I bring up that hundreds of thousands or even millions of credits means nothing to the Empire in the long run. And how does it not show a large budget? It clear does show a large buget since they could easily build 25,000 of them in 20 years and also build the first Death Star without it being found out for sometime.

 

 

 

And infact, when the ISD was first proposed, the argument over it nearly split the newly formed Galactic Empire, it was that costly.

 

 

 

*Face to plam* That is what you call hyperbole. Or are you really, I mean really, going to claim that a galactic Empire is going to be torn apart because of how expensive it was to develop a single class of ship when they could build a moon size battlestation in secret? IT.IS.HYPERBOLE.

 

 

 

And this is in addition to the cost of the SSD and the Death Star, not to mention patrol ships, cruisers, scouts, and frigates. Is it really a wonder why their fighters are flying pieces of shit with armor equal to most forms of tinfoil hats?

 

 

 

Yep, those SSDs and Death Stars that going by clear hyperbole should have torn the Empire apart. On fighters, hell the things were built cheap just because the Starfleet didn't want to cut back on building ISDs if I recall correctly. We know that money is no problem for the Empire. Why? Because they built 60% of a 900 km moon size battlestation in 6 months and no one knew about it.

 

 

 

2) Are you just naive? There is no nation in existence that would accept a foreign, unknown power to send spies through its land. Not in the time of Abraham, not in our time, and certainly not with races that live near, or are xenophic races. So yes, they will attack those probes and then they're going to have a bone to pick with the dumbasses that sent them into their territory.

 

 

 

And their going to think this are enemy spies before an attack why? The Empire can simple say that it is so they can begin trading so as to cover it up as being the scouting mission for an invasion. After all, if the Empire controls everything that goes through the wormhole (I'm assuming that right now) no one in the AQ would have reason to believe the Empire is really this huge galaxy wide enity that is planning to crush them like a bug.

 

 

 

Based on what? Where is your evidence for this?

 

 

 

The probe droids are easy to mass produce and cheap as hell compared to the large Imperial ships. They can afford to spam millions or even billions if they want.

 

 

 

Fine, go ahead and post them. You'll soon learn why.

 

 

 

I'll soon learn why? There was nothing wrong with those numbers, and just because I mentioned them doesn't mean anything on me reflecting him.

 

 

 

I'll get the quotes later any ways. Should have them tomorrow.

 

 

 

Dude, their entire war effort came to a halt in territory they were familiar with for hundreds of years. Now you think they can just magically find more in a few months in a galaxy they've never been to?

 

 

 

Yes, and? How about you prove that the GR that hasn't fought a galactic scale war in a 1000 years at least should bother know about space beyond the routes?

 

The only area they would be familiar with would be the areas around the lanes and teh systems they have explored. And a new galaxy they've never been to? Deep Core. Poorly explored. Thousands of probe droids were able to find several routes through the super dense 10,000 LY Deep Core. That is impressive considering the number of droids used vs. how shitty you seem to want Hyperdrive look. Hell, the longer it takes for them to map out the better really since they can just build a fleet for just this invasion.

 

 

 

Well Prophet, unless TLs have intestellar ranges (and they don't), they're not going to do jack shit without an established hyperlane.

 

 

 

Yeah, and all it takes is a single probe droid or, say a scout ship founding the right route to a planet.

 

 

 

Those super cheap droids cost 24,500 credits each.

 

 

 

Yep, super cheap. *Points at massive moon size stations again*

 

 

 

So your plan is to send in several ships into an area that you just established and fire off a few shots--despite the fact that they'll probably set off every alarm on the planet and cause them to raise shields. And this is assuming there's not a hostile ship in the area, in which case they're going to kick said ISD's sorry ass all the way back to Coruscant.

 

 

 

Once the Empire has lanes established Star Destroyers can just jump in above the planet without warning and simply unleash a massive volley of TL fire. Its called a surprise attack in this case, as long as the Empire plays its cards right it can hide key information from the AQ powers until its too late.

 

 

 

Under Torpedo Sphere. Given that their shielding technology is based off the same thing, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Death Star--or even a ISD is going to have the same problems.

 

 

 

IT would also help to explain how the Executor’s were taken down so fast above Endor.

 

 

 

Based on what? The core? That's a pretty shitty argument.

 

 

 

Explain how it is a pretty shitty argument. The Deep Core is far more dense and dangerous then Federation space. The fact that so few probes got those several natural lanes is impressive just because of the sheer size of the place they had to go through and how dangerous it was to ships in hyperspace.

 

 

 

Yeah and what was the return on that? Oh right, several hyperlanes. Even if you want to argue a 400% increase, at most we're looking at what, about thirty lanes in weeks or months? And this is again, already a part of space that the Republic is somewhat familiar with. And again, they'd probably be losing probes that have to drop out of hyperspace to scan a planet while being on the surface.

 

 

 

The Empire can easily spam as many probe droids for this task as it wants.

 

 

 

And since when have the droids have to stop to scan teh surface of the planet? They are just going to be jumping from one system to the next until they hit a mass shadow.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter. Even if we assume it takes years for them to do this, that only gives the Empire more time to ready a massive invasion fleet for this task.

[Mith 0]

Because 1. They were not consider a major threat at that time.

 

 

 

Based on what options?

 

 

 

 

 

2. Most of the Starfleet (besides the 10% in the Deep Core)

 

 

 

Besides the 10%? So despite the fact that this is the #1 ship producing ship in the Rebellion, the Emperor is too much of a dumbass to simply send four or five ISDs to the Mon Calamari system and watch as they rape their forces?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

was chasing down the main rebel fleet and other minor cells etc.

 

 

 

Which again brings up the question; if the Empire has 10% in reserve, then why aren't they using it? These guys can deploy ships from the Core to the outer rim in a few days. You're literally talking about a week's worth of effort to bring down the one thing making the Rebellion a threat in ship to ship.

 

 

 

If the Empire wanted Mon Cal taken down, it would be taken down.

 

 

 

Which is why said quote specifically says they couldn't. Either the Empire didn't have the ships or they're all fucking dipshits.

 

 

 

 

 

It shows that Mon Cal is not a large enough threat because it is puny campared to just the KDY shipyards in Kuat alone.

 

 

 

How? How does it prove that the Mons aren't a threat? Prove your claims for the KDY's ship production capabilities.

 

 

 

Try not to use the game mechanics from a source book.

 

 

 

 

 

All ture, but that doesn't change the fact that G canon shows that if the Empire had consider Mon Cal a large enough threat at that time they could easily had mustered the forces without it being noticed or having any impact elsewhere.

 

 

 

So you basically just said "yes, showing the Empire sparing that force for a far greater effort that could win the entire war for them is much more important than even the Rebellion's shipyards", but it still proves I'm right? Bullshit.

 

 

 

And even if it did, that's still not enough forces to take down the Federation. And every one of those ships lost would cost the Empire billions of credits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The small town isn't something I'm agruing really, I just found it to be interesting on this point and thought I would bring it up.Fine, I'll drop this point.

 

 

 

I just found it an interesting counter and throught I bring it up was all.

 

 

 

 

Very well. So that pretty much kills Imperial firepower, am I correct on that point?

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and that was the point I bring up that hundreds of thousands or even millions of credits means nothing to the Empire in the long run.

 

 

 

Based on what evidence?

 

 

 

And how does it not show a large budget? It clear does show a large buget since they could easily build 25,000 of them in 20 years and also build the first Death Star without it being found out for sometime.

 

 

 

Of course it had a large budget. And guess what partially killed them? That large budget. Think about this; the Venator cost 59 million credits. The Venators carried a decent level of firepower and were a match beyond anything that wasn't a true capital ship, assuming a decent amount of fighter defensive abilities. Certainly better than anything the Rebels could have at the time of the ISD. With the funds for one, listen to that...ONE Imperial Star Destroyer, you could have created 65.7 Venators. The entire Imperial line would fund 1.64 million Venators alone. This isn't including the absurdly stupid programs such as the Death Star or the Super Star Destroyer. Even assuming the SSD only costs 4x as much as the ISD, you could have bought another 236 Venators. How many of those did they make? Four or so? 1,052 Venators. And the Death Star? Let's only assume they cost say a 1,000x as much as the SSD (easily low calculations). What do we get then? 263,050 thousand Venators.

 

 

 

Fuck, just by eliminating the first DS, the 25,000 ISDs, and the SSDs, we get 1,944,102 Venator class Star Destroyers that could have easily beefed up the Empire's presence. And not only that, but because the ship would be in service for so long, it would actually be much cheaper to produce due to the industry adapting to it. In other words, the Empire could easily get another 2 million warships that would outmatch anything any pirate or individual planet could muster and even if the planets/rebels did, the Empire could simply pull a few of them from another system and crush the enemy with numbers and overwhelming firepower. And that's not even going into the waste that was the second Death Star. Or the Eclipse. Or the Galaxy Gun )actually, that was actually a good weapon) or anything like that.

 

 

 

And guess what the low end number for the Empire's fleet is? 4 million, possibly up to maybe 10 million. That means in the best case, that simple act of cutting out all those oversized, overpowered warships would have increased the fleet size by 50% and at worst, probably by 20%.

 

 

 

The reason why the Empire can't respond to threats well isn't because they don't feel like it--nor is their budget and indication that they have a strong industry. It's in fact, a strong indication that the Empire is going downhill. Why? Let's see, the ruler has a massive, overpowered station created with the capability to destroy a planet, but even wavering that we see that a good portion of it is spent upon a ship that is way overpowered. It's literally like buying a 5 kt bomb to take care of a roach problem.

 

 

 

*Face to plam* That is what you call hyperbole. Or are you really, I mean really, going to claim that a galactic Empire is going to be torn apart because of how expensive it was to develop a single class of ship when they could build a moon size battlestation in secret? IT.IS.HYPERBOLE.

 

 

 

Based on what? Do you understand how stupid that sounds? Just what do you think would happen if the United Stats started spending money on carriers that costs more than what the average state makes in a year as a mainstream ship? Yeah, the Union could very easily snap in half. Because the entire prospect is fucking retarded. The only reason the Empire was able to afford it as opposed to America is because instead of fifty states they can drain money out of, they've got thousands. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of planets.

 

 

 

Yep, those SSDs and Death Stars that going by clear hyperbole should have torn the Empire apart.

 

 

 

The SSD came long after the introduction of the ISD, so by that time it was clear who had won what was to be done with the money. Also note they only made like, less than six. They made tens of thousands of ISDs.

 

 

 

On fighters, hell the things were built cheap just because the Starfleet didn't want to cut back on building ISDs if I recall correctly. We know that money is no problem for the Empire. Why? Because they built 60% of a 900 km moon size battlestation in 6 months and no one knew about it.

 

 

 

1) Jesus, you don't think that's an indication that they were having budget cut issues? And you want to increase that problem? Fuck, the Advanced TIE was basically kicked off because they decided that basic shielding was too god damn expensive.

 

 

 

2) No one knew about it? That's it? That's your best answer? Of course no one knew about it you dumbass. They hid it in a fucking galaxy. I don't know about you, but that sounds like it might be a wee bit difficult to find, especially when one side controls the holonets and the vast majority of information. The only impressive part is that they were able to keep mouths shut, but that wouldn't be an indication of money so much as discipline and a doctorine of fear.

 

 

 

And their going to think this are enemy spies before an attack why?

 

 

 

Let's play a game. Go to a foreign country, buy a plan with sophisticated sensor technology, and then fly it back over to the States. See how long it'll take for the US Air Force to shoot your ass down.

 

 

 

 

 

The Empire can simple say that it is so they can begin trading so as to cover it up as being the scouting mission for an invasion.

 

 

 

...What?

 

 

 

No, no you're shitting me. You honestly don't believe anyone is that fucking stupid do you? Oh yeah, I can see that;

 

 

 

Romulans: We detected and caught a probe with high level sensor capabilities near one of our military outposts. Care to explain?

 

Palpy: Um...we wanted to trade?

 

Romulans: No.

 

Palpy: Diplomatic...er...

 

Romulans: No.

 

Palpy:...uh, scientific explor--

 

Romulans: We don't even buy it from the people who've been doing that for the past two centuries.

 

 

 

I mean seriously...what the fuck? The Klingons saw the rearrangement of the Cardassian Union as evidence that the Founders were behind the entire thing--and invaded them. The Romulans have their own secret police force and even joined up with the Cardassian's secret police force to commit mass genocide against the Founders for posing a threat to them. Fuck, even the peace loving, trusting Captain Picard called bullshit on the Cardassians building "science stations" in a part of space near three Federation sectors.

 

 

 

No one is fucking stupid enough to buy that line of shit. They'd probably shoot the dumbass who fed them that line simply because it's that fucking insulting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After all, if the Empire controls everything that goes through the wormhole (I'm assuming that right now)

 

 

 

Big presumption.

 

 

 

no one in the AQ would have reason to believe the Empire is really this huge galaxy wide enity that is planning to crush them like a bug.

 

 

 

Ah what? Why would the Empire suddenly do a 360 in the way they act? They don't go slinking around systems like pussies. They're infamous in their own galaxy for political pressure in forcing planets to join and even threaten them by indicating the large Imperial warmachine. They even make examples of other planets to encourage people to join.

 

 

 

And suddenly they're going to start pussyfooting around? Nope. Not buying it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The probe droids are easy to mass produce and cheap as hell compared to the large Imperial ships. They can afford to spam millions or even billions if they want.

 

 

 

Again, based on what evidence? We already know that a large amounts of cash have been spent upon ISDs, SSDs, and a Death Star. They literally have to fly cheap ass fighters with no shields--something that decade old ships had as standard. And you want me to believe that they'll spam an area with millions or billions of probes? Bullshit. Provide your evidence.

[Mith 0]

Part 2:

 

 

 

 

I'll soon learn why? There was nothing wrong with those numbers, and just because I mentioned them doesn't mean anything on me reflecting him.

 

 

 

I'll get the quotes later any ways. Should have them tomorrow

.

 

 

 

Go ahead.

 

 

 

Yes, and? How about you prove that the GR that hasn't fought a galactic scale war in a 1000 years at least should bother know about space beyond the routes?

 

 

 

What? Dude, their entire hyperlane routes are forged based on large celestial bodies. Ships of large size, such as the SSD, would require 12 parsec routes around a fucking nebula. The Death Star I can only imagine is going to be facing a great deal of more problems, as would others. The larger the ship, the larger the problems.

 

 

 

And this is despite the fact that every planet in the Galaxy (or known galaxy) is recorded in the Jedi Archives. They have a complete picture and they'd still lose the Outer Rim. With the ST galaxy, it's an entire blank slot.

 

 

 

 

 

The only area they would be familiar with would be the areas around the lanes and teh systems they have explored.

 

 

 

Yoda and Ben looked at a map of the fucking galaxy. They literally had enough information that they realized that despite a planet being deleted off the map, that they could still indicate that the gravity in the area hadn't changed. Which is rather vital information for hyerplanes as far as that goes too, so you're still up shit creek buddy.

 

 

 

And a new galaxy they've never been to? Deep Core. Poorly explored.

 

 

 

Poorly explored stil = explored.

 

 

 

Thousands of probe droids were able to find several routes through the super dense 10,000 LY Deep Core.

 

 

 

And what, you think they can suddenly pull millions of these things out of their asses now? Why? Why not use that for finding the Rebels? Surely they were using proper searching methods, but if they can so easily toss out those numbers, why not use them to spot the rebels quicker?

 

 

 

 

 

That is impressive considering the number of droids used vs. how shitty you seem to want Hyperdrive look.

 

 

 

Sitty? No, not really. The fact is that hyperdrive relies on an extensive network of constant information and mantainance--something that the Empire just doesn't have set up in the ST galaxy.

 

Hell, the longer it takes for them to map out the better really since they can just build a fleet for just this invasion.

 

 

 

Yeah, and all it takes is a single probe droid or, say a scout ship founding the right route to a planet.

 

 

 

Because in your drug addled world, nations have no problem with strange sensor probes flying around in their sustems. Because...well because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, super cheap. *Points at massive moon size stations again*

 

 

 

Sorry, that doesn't work. Prove that there's enough of a budget left to allow for a shit load of probe droids when we didn't see these millions, or even tens of thousands of probes in Empire Strikes Back.

 

 

 

Where they were using thousands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once the Empire has lanes established Star Destroyers can just jump in above the planet without warning and simply unleash a massive volley of TL fire.

 

 

 

Because spotting an unusual probe in orbit of one of their planets a few days or even weeks later won't put the Federation on high alert. Nor will the fact that reports will be coming in that such things are widespread across the Alpha-Beta Quadrant.

 

 

 

Nope.

 

 

 

Its called a surprise attack in this case, as long as the Empire plays its cards right it can hide key information from the AQ powers until its too late.

 

 

 

Yes, by claiming that what is clearly a massive probe spam throghout multiple territories followed up by an attack on several planets from an unknown source afterwards, is going to give the Empire the image of someone who lookes like they're totally not going to try and fuck you over.

 

 

 

Oh wait, it's incredibly suspicious and obvious. Especially when the Federation realizes what's going on and warns the Klingons (who are close allies and are practically itching to go to war) and the Romulans, Tholians, and other major powers will quickly be alterted.

 

 

 

 

 

IT would also help to explain how the Executor’s were taken down so fast above Endor.

 

 

 

Did you miss that part about the entire fleet focusing their friepower upon the Super Star Destroyer?

 

 

 

 

 

Explain how it is a pretty shitty argument. The Deep Core is far more dense and dangerous then Federation space. The fact that so few probes got those several natural lanes is impressive just because of the sheer size of the place they had to go through and how dangerous it was to ships in hyperspace.

 

 

 

Not really. Even in a poorly explored area--it's still explored. In fact, if the area has a reputation of being unexplorable, it often suggests that people have tried and often failed, suggesting that certain routes and areas are clearly not going to work. Again, along with the finding the Rebels, part of finding the right way is knowing where not to go. If Palpatine had the information of where many ventures failed, then he could clearly locate areas that were not to fail, search for similar signs, and then send the probes to the areas where they didn't see that sort of thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Empire can easily spam as many probe droids for this task as it wants.

 

 

 

You have not proven it. Do so now.

 

 

 

And since when have the droids have to stop to scan teh surface of the planet? They are just going to be jumping from one system to the next until they hit a mass shadow.

 

 

 

How about Empire Strikes Back genius? The probe droid had to land in order to get a detailed scan of the Rebel base--footage that we saw relayed back to Vader's fleet.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter. Even if we assume it takes years for them to do this, that only gives the Empire more time to ready a massive invasion fleet for this task.

 

 

 

Yes, like in the three years when their Empire collapses like a house of cards and becomes the small Imperial Reminant, they'll clearly have the time, resources, and manpower to take out the Federation because the rest of their Galaxy has already labled them as the asscrack of theirs.