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Khas

I crunched some numbers...

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I'm not saying the Imperial Navy is weak. I'm just saying that the Death Star was so far above anything ever built before that it seemed like that it (the navy) was.

 

whats your point?

This is consistent with the ICS math, because it is the most powerful starship ever built, wielding a million times more destrucive energy than is required to mass-scatter a planet, and yet that is one ship. The entire Imperial Navy [millions of military starships alone] combined wields half this power, making it the most powerful destructive force at their disposal, and indeed the entire galaxy.

 

Using EU, the millions of starships will pack turbolasers by tens of millions; compare that to the unrealistically small tens of thousands on the Death Star, a generous potential are only XX-9's, as seen in the films... we can quickly determine that any comparison between firepower would stack in regular feats favour by many orders of magnitude. This means any comparison made or theory based on favouring the Death Stars regular turbolaser arsenal to that of the entire imperial fleets is completely illogical. The expanded material reading millions of starships, and novel material describing millions of worlds, and EU numbers on DS turbolasers makes the comparison in Death Star seem very silly, even inconsistent.

 

The propulsion demonstrated in the films, the behind the magic cd about the films themselves confirming fleet = half the DS's superlaser, all suggest firepower figures much greater than is printed in the ICS, by orders of magnitude.

Edited by Vince

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Brian, this isn't a groupthink site like SDN or SonicBabble. The ICS is not the end-all, be-all when it comes to SW. Do you know what some of the comments on other sites have been about your analyses? To put it kindly, they say they're flawed. To be more accurate, they range from "Hello 2002! If it weren't for the date I would have assumed that that this was from ten years ago. It's like he's been in cryo-stasis for that whole time" to "LOL, has he ever opened a physics book before?"

 

I've tried to be nice. I've tried to avoid posting stuff like this. Hell, I even flat-out laughed at the idea that you were SciFi Fan/StarWarsStarTrek, and rejected it. But to deny multiple sources in favor of one isn't scientific. It's anti-science. It's a creationist technique.

I already explained how the rather silly figure from TFU, can be reconciled with other sources. There is an orders of magnitude difference between ship deadiweight, and the massive fuels on board, in fvor of the latter. And obviously, the figure is simply absurd to begin with. Beside which, In a interview i read, Curtis was hired exactly for his technical knowlege, and was told to use it; thus the hard figures and technical information in the ICS. Because of this, the book is regarded as "authoritative" and even says so on the back. And why Chee, head of the canon department or w/e said it would be "the first place to look" for him. He was hired to be authoritative on the technical subjects, thus i would take that particular detail from that source over the detail in the "higher canon" TFU book. But take story based contradictions with favour to TFU, because of context. It is higher canon in relation to story, but Curtis was hired for his technical knowledge. The numbers make more sense, making ics reliable, considering the the books purpose/author.

 

So far your counter argument has been pretty weak imo, so posting what are quotations likening to virtual face palms comes across seems rather silly, Saying "thats so last decade" or "debunked years" ago is a brush off, not a argument.

Edited by Vince

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- The fact the DS is the ultimate power in the universe is consistent with ICS figures or doubled DS total firepower based calcs

-The source for comparing firepower to the superlaser is one: Death Star

-This is contradicted by several other sources regarding actual turbolaser number

-it is also contradicted by the behind the magic cd made about the films, where the beam is confirmed as context

-The notion that the Imperial fleet wields almost twice the firepower of the laser beam is therfor better supported by multiple EU sources as well as higher sources too

-the implied fleet sizes in the movies [millions of worlds, thousands of ships at coruscant alone, and availability of starships] also suggests a greater number of turbolasers than is numbered for the death star

 

The fleet combined does wield almost twice the firepower of the Death Star. The comparatively conservative figures in ICS suggest the Empire has more numerous superweapons. to argue other wise is actually taking one source in favour of several, exactly what you was accusing Brian of.

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Khas, I've produced over 2 hours of video dealing with this subject from multiple angles. Why don't you sit down and watch it?

In it, I cover the acceleration method, scaling down the Death Star, direct effects against armor in combat, and maybe a few more things, each independent of Curtis' work in the book.

 

In response to the physics book comment, yes I have taken basic Physics. Dr. Curtis Saxton holds a doctorate in that field, so back off. You and your fanboiz will never equal that level of Physics education combined.

 

To be taken seriously, why don't you do your own work? You continuously refer to comments made by other fanboiz, as if their knee jerk reactions matter to virtually anyone.

Here, in a bold move, you presented some math. That is great. But then you proceeded to use the lowest numbers you can find. Numbers which I challenge. I have the EGVV, and I see none if these numbers you suggest. Do you refer to a subsequent publication? If so, does it refer to the MGLT speed rates in video games? If so, carefully explain, using actually quotes, what that acronym stands for. Is it consistent? Is an ISD faster than the Millennium Falcon in that MGLT scale? Because it is on the movies.

 

You are placing Han Solo's knee jerk reaction on an equal level to GENERAL Dodonna's MILITARY BRIEFING. To suggest he simply forgot about the Death Star's main weapon, and a small time smuggler is just as informed as he is, well that is simply asinine.

 

And you know, I don't worship the ICS, offering up virgin sacrifices or anything. It is simply the secondary source I choose to fill in gaps or solve continuity problems in the movies. I do, however, choose to lean toward those firepower figures, because what I find from the films is much HIGHER. I feel it is more fair to come down to the levels in the books.

It gives much more useful info on the size of ships and things than any other printed source.

And my name is in the credits. A gun is named after me. Seriously, which secondary source would you predict I'd use?

This is all explained in the 2 hours of video I've produced covering the topic. It is quite simple: you are debating the contents of videos you have not seen.

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Actually, I went with the only source of mass available to me. And believe me, there are LOWER sources. Like one novel that said that starfighters' firepower output is in the kilojoule range. Yes. Kilojoule. I desperately wish I was making this up.

 

Also, Saxton admitted to not watching AOTC when he wrote the ICS.

 

I have taken College Physics as well. I wouldn't have a problem with the ICS if we actually saw ships having firepower like it claimed.

 

As for the Death Star's firepower of "half the Star Fleet" referring to it's other weapons emplacements, that also comes from the Death Star novel.

 

I'm just so used to seeing SW fanboys who throw around the ICS denounce any high-end stuff for ST, that this is sort of a reaction to that, as well as a counter. I don't want to see the site become a groupthink site. Groupthink is not debate. It's a circle-jerk. For debate, you need people with differing opinions, different views. Otherwise, it just becomes Yes-Men.

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Actually we could all have the same ideas and views on firepower, power output, acceleration, and still debate sci fi cross-overs. I thought that was the idea, to establish the technical stuff first, and then debate what would happen? IF we can all have orders of magnitude different opinions on firepower about the same franchise, then how are we supposed to discuss how things would play out?

 

I covered what the Death Star novel said about TL emplacements, and it is inconsistent with multiple other sources of equal validity. So your using one source in favour of many. Isn't that "creationist". BTM cd says it was in reference to teh superlaser - SDN. And it would seem pretty silly to lie about it on a public website.

 

If your using the EU, then you have to accept the Base Delta Zero and its potential, several sources now make it clear the upper crust of an entire world, can be turned molten by turbolaser fire. And a couple even suggest a single ISD can achieve this in a matter of hours.

The power output you come up with would not even cover the energy required to vaporize the asteroids seen in the films.

 

Low showings from random expanded sources mean nothing, when they are indisputebaly contradicted by the films, where we see fighters wielding kilotons of firepower, not kilojoules.

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Actually, I went with the only source of mass available to me. And believe me, there are LOWER sources. Like one novel that said that starfighters' firepower output is in the kilojoule range. Yes. Kilojoule. I desperately wish I was making this up.

 

Also, Saxton admitted to not watching AOTC when he wrote the ICS.

 

I have taken College Physics as well. I wouldn't have a problem with the ICS if we actually saw ships having firepower like it claimed.

 

As for the Death Star's firepower of "half the Star Fleet" referring to it's other weapons emplacements, that also comes from the Death Star novel.

 

I'm just so used to seeing SW fanboys who throw around the ICS denounce any high-end stuff for ST, that this is sort of a reaction to that, as well as a counter. I don't want to see the site become a groupthink site. Groupthink is not debate. It's a circle-jerk. For debate, you need people with differing opinions, different views. Otherwise, it just becomes Yes-Men.

 

Where's the Groupthink? Where are the Yes Men? There's been some very passionate arguments about every aspect of all of the various franchises, even among supporters of ICS for Star Wars about specific conclusions and ideas. Stop pigeon holing everybody into narrowly defined categories and reacting to them according to character traits you've transplanted onto them from other people you've met and assumed that all proponents of one idea or another are the same.

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Actually we could all have the same ideas and views on firepower, power output, acceleration, and still debate sci fi cross-overs. I thought that was the idea, to establish the technical stuff first, and then debate what would happen? IF we can all have orders of magnitude different opinions on firepower about the same franchise, then how are we supposed to discuss how things would play out?

 

I covered what the Death Star novel said about TL emplacements, and it is inconsistent with multiple other sources of equal validity. So your using one source in favour of many. Isn't that "creationist". BTM cd says it was in reference to teh superlaser - SDN. And it would seem pretty silly to lie about it on a public website.

 

If your using the EU, then you have to accept the Base Delta Zero and its potential, several sources now make it clear the upper crust of an entire world, can be turned molten by turbolaser fire. And a couple even suggest a single ISD can achieve this in a matter of hours.

The power output you come up with would not even cover the energy required to vaporize the asteroids seen in the films.

 

Low showings from random expanded sources mean nothing, when they are indisputebaly contradicted by the films, where we see fighters wielding kilotons of firepower, not kilojoules.

 

We don't even get consistent BDZs in the EU. Take Nar Shaddaa or Caamaas for example. It was shown that there would still be structures and bodies laying around, and mop-up operations would need to be done.

 

Or in the Legacy of the Force novels, where Jacen ordered all the turbolasers fired at full power in one spot on Kashyyyk, and all it did was create a km-wide fireball.

 

As for SDN and lies, let me tell you something about that board's early history. Back in 2003, there were some extreme Pro-Trek trolls on the board, supposedly coming from TrekBBS and Troll Kingdom. So, after being slandered again and again there, Troll Kingdom hacked SDN, and exposed the forum. Turns out, all the "Trekkie trolls" were actually admin and mod sockpuppets.

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6355

 

Also, the purpose of debate is to find the truth through finding evidence from different parties. Not going "I have the truth. Discuss."

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Why is Troll Kingdom any more or less of a disreputable source than SDnet? Admittedly, SDnet is not exactly a culture of civility but I'd be hesitant to trust someone from a place called Trollkingdom to tell me what color the sky was, let alone who is using sock puppets. All this little narrative reinforces is your unhealthy obsession with vs culture. Besides, there's a difference between bored mods and admins screwing with their members and posting a claim that can be easily verified by anyone with access to the CD, book or whatever.

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If you'd actually posted on Troll Kingdom, you'd learn that the board's culture is more complex than simply trolling each other. Trolling each other for the sake of it hasn't been done widely by the members there in years. It's largely a haven for those banned from really strict boards, as it started out as a spinoff of TrekBBS, itself a spinoff of Old ASVS. Yes, I post there. And you know what? So do Tyralak, ESAD, Afishymeadow, NX-01, and several other members here. Yes, a good chunk of the board staff here post on TK.

 

As for my obsession, that's just a quirk I've picked up over the years. Yeah, when you observe a community as large as this for six years, you begin to pick up little... quirks.

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The "high end" of BDZ definitions are consistent with power generating capabilities demonstrated by on screen propulsion, the low end ones are not. Primary canon comes first. Even Jango had access to munitions you could probably hold in your hands which shatter asteroids for several kilometers around. In the EU, there are hand grenades which create fireballs of comparable size to the one proposed for maximum power turbolaser strikes from the Executor - yea the EU is inconsistent, only some molds much better with figures derived from the films, and others directly contradict them.

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The "high end" of BDZ definitions are consistent with power generating capabilities demonstrated by on screen propulsion, the low end ones are not. Primary canon comes first. Even Jango had access to munitions you could probably hold in your hands which shatter asteroids for several kilometers around. In the EU, there are hand grenades which create fireballs of comparable size to the one proposed for maximum power turbolaser strikes from the Executor - yea the EU is inconsistent, only some molds much better with figures derived from the films, and others directly contradict them.

 

Several kilometers. What?

 

I remember the scene, and that did not look like several kilometers.

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With regards to BDZ and Jacen bombing Kashyyk. What is the purpose of war and the use of weapons? At its most basic, it's to get what you want or defend yourself against someone trying to take something from you or compel you to do something.

 

The most simplistic and wrong idea is that the only way to wage war is to utterly and completely destroy your enemy. Were that true, there would be radioactive parking lots where North Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran are today. Assuming that the USA and USSR had even managed to make it through the cold war without reducing the world population by about two thirds.

 

As it turns out, the way a war is waged depends a lot on what the goal is. Most people who start wars don't do it to rule over ashes and bones. In war, anything that you destroy will have to be rebuilt at the conclusion of that war. That didn't stop the US, with its industry well outside of any conceivable retaliation from using carpet bombing to try to break the back of German and Japanese industry but things get dicier when you don't have thousands of miles of ocean between you and retaliation.

 

What if all of your territory, every last bit of it, was able to be struck back in retaliation for any offense within hours or days? Would you use scorched earth tactics to win the day if it meant that the same could be done to you anywhere at any time?

 

Had Jacen burned Kashyyk, how long before one of his key member worlds was put to the torch?

 

Consider also the land mine. Land mines are not built to kill. At least not deliberately. Land mines wound, horribly and in such a way that the person who stepped on it is invariably in need of serious, long term medical attention consuming resources. After recovering, such a person is frequently maimed for life and will continue to be a burden to their society in some small way. That person exists as a cautionary tale to any who would consider war a noble or valiant cause. Resources are consumed, morale attacked.

 

I submit that the goal of planetary bombardment is not always to inflict as much damage as possible but to wound and maim. If Kashyyk burns, then the Republic's commitment to it is at an end and Jacen gains no value from it if he wins the war. If he creates a humanitarian crisis, the Republic must throw resources into saving the Wookie homeworld.

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Jacen wanted to see Kashyyyk burned to the ground.

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Khas;

We have slave 1 vaporizing some asteroids, and X-wings causing massive collateral in the films, suggesting terajoule range firepower. Its worth noting that the armours that fighter firepower penetrate can withstand multi-hundred megajoule blaster shots taking only trivial surface damage, like stray shots that hit tanks or the Falcon. ICS gives yields of between 1 and 2 kilotons per shot to fighter based weapons, which is consistent with these on screen events. X-Wings are have larger heavier laser guns, so probably yield 2 or more kilotons per shot, and have four lasers total. According to SWvST they have a volume of ~27 cubic meters.

In a New Hope, we see the Tantive with its proportionally massive turbolasers fire of a couple of bursts on to the bare armoured hull of a ISD, the energy is spread over hundreds of square meters and leaves zero visible damage. This Corvette is close to 2,400 times greater in volume than the X-wing. If it had proportionally more firepower we would be talking tens of megatons. In reality in may wield far more firepower, because larger capital ships dedicate a larger percentile of their power output to weapons – even hundreds of megatons. These are the energy levels which the main hull of the ISD can harmlessly dissipate, receiving trivial damage at best.

In contrast, the heavy turbolasers of a capital ship may blast 60 meter wide holes through such armour, and even penetrate half way through a starship, as demonstrated in both ROTS and ROTJ. Armour which can withstand hundreds of megatons harmlessly could well require teratons to blast through.

So from observed firepower in the movies, we can set a lower limit orders of magnitude greater than tens or hundreds of megatons, for single shots from heavy turbolasers. We also have the Falcon’s shields withstanding a single digit megaton blast in ESB, when she is escaping through the asteroid field. The shields are taking a beaten, but we don’t know how many shots of this yield it would take to lower them. And this is a 35 meter long freighter, not a warship. This blast is spread over a far larger volume than the tie lasers, explaining how fighters might compromise shields with less firepower.

Then we have propulsion and required power generation, suggesting very high firepower, and the fleet wielding close to twice the firepower of the Death Star’s superlaser, suggesting greater firepower still.

Fighter extrapolated firepower, the falcon scene, the propulsion figures, DS calculations, are all independent of each other and are all from the films. They all dictate firepower orders of magnitude higher than what you were proposing (<14 kilotons per second_). This and more is covered in the videos Brian has created.

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Did I say I supported the kilojoule firepower that one novel stated? No.

 

Also, show me where Slave I vaporized the asteroids. Some got shattered by the seismic charges, but I don't recall Slave I ever vaporizing them.

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Why bring it up then? :)

Second ICS video near the end i think, brian spends about 5 minutes going frame by frame through the scene pointing out vapoirzed ones, iirc the fighter even flies through a asteroid that was largely vaporized. Thats not the only scene taht suggests kiloton level firepower though. So does penetrating the armour on the external buildings of the DS1.

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If your going to justify lower firepower for SW, then your have to debunk each of the points, not just attack one or two of them.

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Why bring it up then? :)

 

Mainly to show what a mess C-Canon can be at times.

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Mainly to show what a mess C-Canon can be at times.

Ah okay. What do you make of all the screen evidence then?

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Jacen wanted to see Kashyyyk burned to the ground.

 

Exact quote please. Your opinion devoid of context is not a fact.

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Just saw the battle in Geonosis' rings. Didn't see a single asteroid get vaporized. Saw the seismic charges pulverize a lot of them though, which is fairly impressive.

 

However, what I did see was Slave I's blaster cannon blasts explode after seemingly hitting nothing. This could be the plasma dissipating, since plasma tends to dissipate quickly, regardless of the environment. Maybe the bolts had too much energy for the magnetic fields to keep them intact.

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Exact quote please. Your opinion devoid of context is not a fact.

 

Here:

"That won't be necessary, Commander,: Caedus said. "The planet is already within range of the Anamin Solo's long-range turbolasers, is it not?"

Twizzl's bushy brows dropped so low that they nearly covered his eyes. "Of course, but the Kashyyyk fleet is--"

"Unimportant." Caedus faced Twizzl, presenting his back to Ben again. If the order he was about to give did not prompt his cousin to attack, then nothing would. "Have the long-range batteries open fire."

Twizzl's face went slack with confusion. "On the Owools?"

"On the planet." As Cadeus spoke, he was careful to keep his hand away from his lightsaber. He wnted to give his cousin every chance to attack; if Ben did not strike soon, he would have to be eliminated as unworthy. "Have them direct their fire to the same target area; the objective is to create a firestorm."

Caedus's command was greeted by utter silence, and he could feel the Force reverberating with the shock of the officers and crew who had overhead the command. Only Ben failed to seem surprised--though perhaps it was because he was still hiding his presence from the Force. Jacen continued to face Twizzl, giving the youth plenty of time to strike.

After a couple of moments, Twizzl finally seemed able to respond, "You want to burn the wroshyrs?"

"Precisely." Caedus said. "The entire world-forest if we can."

"Twizzl's expression changed from stunned to condemnating. "But that's...that's just madness. It won't accomplish anything!"

"That's not your conclusion to reach, Commander," Caedus replied. Giving the order wasn't easy--in fact, it made him feel sick. As a child, he had both loved and respected Chewbacca, and the last thing he wanted to do was burn teh homeworld of his friend and protector. But the Wookies had brought this disaster on themsleves by betraying the Balactic Alliance. "However, just this once, I will explain myself to you."

"I'd appreciate that, Colonel." Twizzl's tone suggested that the explanation would need to be a good one, if Caedus expected him to obey. "Thank you."

"Very well. You were at the Battle of Kuat, so you know how evenly matched our militaries are."

Twizzl nodded. "The Confederation will have to break off soon," he said. "They can't match the Alliance in a war of attrition."

"And we can't afford one," Caedus countered, "We're already too weak to defend all the worlds under our protection, and the Confederation knows it. So you're wrong--they're not going to withdraw. They're going to keep fighting and hope we'll withdraw, which we can't do. It would leave a clear lane all the way to Coruscant."

"So we're in a stalemate," Ben said, disapointing Caedus by stepping toward him--not to attack, but to join the conversation. "How's burning Kashyyyk going to change that?"

Unable to hide is frustration, Caedus whirled on the boy. "Think, Ben. What do we both need to break the stalemate? What are we losing here and the Confederaiton gaining?"

Ben recoiled from the venom in Caedu's voice, but he answered quickly, "Allies."

"Correct." Caedus placed his hand on Ben's shoulder, but he was so angry he had to stop himself from drawing back and striking the youth. "And if the Confederation hopes to make an ally of the Wookies, what must they do?"

Twizzl's eyes lit with angry comprehension. "Come to Kashyyyk's defense."

"Which means they have to abandon their drive on Coruscant," Ben finished. "And burning the forests is going to provoke more of a public outrage than just capturing the Kashyyyk assault fleet. If the Confederation doesn't help the Wookies, they're going to have trouble recruiting more worlds. It'll look like they don't care about anyone bu themselves.

"Right again," Caedus said.

"But who'll want to join us?" Twizzl demanded. "Were going to look like monsters."

Caedus smiled. "Exactly, Commander. Worlds will tremble at the thought of deserting us. If we're willing to burn the Kashyyyk forest as punishment, who knows what we might do to them?"

Twizzl's mouth dropped in horror, and he stared at Caedus without saying anything.

"I have grown weary of waiting, Commander," Caedus said. "Will you relay my order now, or do I need to appoint a new commander?"

The threat was enough to shake Twizzl out of his daze. "That won't be necessary, Colonel. I see no military reason to disregard you orders--your rationale seems as sound as it does chilling.

 

"On the planet." As Cadeus spoke, he was careful to keep his hand away from his lightsaber. He wnted to give his cousin every chance to attack; if Ben did not strike soon, he would have to be eliminated as unworthy. "Have them direct their fire to the same target area; the objective is to create a firestorm."

 

The viewport tinting dimmed as four ribbons of brilliance flashed from the tip of the Anakin Solo's bow and streaked toward the dark ovoid of the planet's night side. A wave of shock and fear rippled through the Force from the direction of the Owool squadron, then quickly changed to confusion as the Wookies realized the attack had not been directed at them. When the turbolaser bolts burned through Kashyyyk's atmosphere and blossomed into a pinpoint of scarlet flame, confusion changed to disbelief.

The batteries flashed again, striking in the same place and enlarging the pinpoint to a flickering red speck. the disbelief changed to rage, then--as the turbolasers flashed a third time--to seething resolve. Caedus saw the Owools dip their prows toward the Anakin Solo's bow, then lost sight of them when teh turbolasers fired again.

Twizzil stepped to the holidisplay, dutifully placing himself at Caedus's side--opposite Ben--despite the fear and revulsion he was radiating into the Force.

"Assessement is estimating a forest fire half a kilometer square and growing," he reported. "I've instructed them to change the target areas every time they reach a self-perpetuating threshold."

"Well done," Caedus replied. "We don't want the Wookies undoing our hard work."

"Maybe it would be smart to target a city or two," Ben said. "That way we can keep theier fire-suppression teams busy trying to save populated areas."

Twizzl's jaw fell, and he looked past Caedus at Ben with a look of loathing and incredulity, as though he could not believe the thoughts that sprouted in teenage minds.

"Excellent idea, Lieutenant," Caedus turned to Twizzl, "Pass it along to fire control, Commander."

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In other words, nothing even remotely resembling a BDZ, which would in any case be counterproductive. As you quoted:

 

Unable to hide is frustration, Caedus whirled on the boy. "Think, Ben. What do we both need to break the stalemate? What are we losing here and the Confederaiton gaining?"

Ben recoiled from the venom in Caedu's voice, but he answered quickly, "Allies."

"Correct." Caedus placed his hand on Ben's shoulder, but he was so angry he had to stop himself from drawing back and striking the youth. "And if the Confederation hopes to make an ally of the Wookies, what must they do?"

Twizzl's eyes lit with angry comprehension. "Come to Kashyyyk's defense."

"Which means they have to abandon their drive on Coruscant," Ben finished. "And burning the forests is going to provoke more of a public outrage than just capturing the Kashyyyk assault fleet. If the Confederation doesn't help the Wookies, they're going to have trouble recruiting more worlds. It'll look like they don't care about anyone bu themselves.

 

If Caedus was trying to destroy the planet he could have done so in hours, possibly faster, as has already been explained. He wasn't, he was trying to draw off the Confederation fleet - force them to break off their drive on Coruscant to defend Kashyyyk. To do that he had to ensure that the bombardment lasted long enough for any Confederation intervention to be meaningful.

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