Questor

Everything I've read suggests that they look a heck of a lot like an old style camera flash - even at the gigaton range. It's not supposed to be very impressive at all, and scaling the blast is almost impossible.

And I'm sure that all of that would have been hashed out on SDN at the time... except for one thing: NO ONE CARED ANYMORE! Curtis was defended because he was a friend and the person attacking him was a known jerk. Seriously, I understand that the STvsSW debate DID die around the time AotC came out, but confusing the corellation of those events, with AotC ICS killing the debate is putting the cart before the horse. For a lot of people I knew at the time, AotC killed Star Wars. Enterprise's first season had just ended, so it was obvious Star Trek was on its last legs. Why keep debating? AotC was BAD, even by the previously established standards of pulp sci-fi. In hindsight, it's even worse. Lucas took one of the best actresses of her generation and put her oposite a plank of wood, and expected a romance to be beleivable. He tried to tie way to much together, and wrote a story that was non-sensical. I rewatched AotC one or two times. I NEVER rewateched RotS. I haven't read an SW novel since AotC, and I haven't bought an EU product since then either. Its not a protest, I lost interest! So did a lot of people. When you are trying to condemn SDN, condem it for a lot of things, but condemning them because they ignored evidence that was brought to light as the debate was dieing due to lack of interest is just stupid. They also show bolts coming from the underside of the ship, where models and the original ICS (ignoring the hypocrisy here) show no weapons. Obviously, there was another cloaked ship there firing! If we were discussion other groups, that would be relevant, but you are specifically discussion SDN, where the discussion DID die.

Archer is responsible for the actions of his crew. Even if they were saved, he still made the attempt. Attempting genocide is the same crime as genocide. Different situation. The very second one. "Fight or Flight" (Coincidentally, the last Enterprise episode I watched during a broadcast.) If a foreign power put a commissar onboard a USN ship, the reaction would be rather close. T'Pol may not have needed killing (Yeehaa) but she should not have been allowed to interfere in the operations of the ship to the level that she did. Making her first officer was just... idiotic. Are you conceeding the need for your replacement and accepting my arguments?

Move that Archer be referred to as "Duchess"

They don't agree that it is contradicted by the movies, they - with some justification - point out that we never actually see the heavies impacting anything that we can use to calculate. And since serious debate on this topic died there around AotC, using evidence post-AotC is disingenious at best. Attack SDN for what it is NOW, don't simply trot out old arguments that would barely get a look from 90% of members there. The last time I went into the fiction section at all, I was looking for a movie review, and that was quite a while ago - Avatar, I think. EDIT: I should also note that most of the high end firepower discussions there root themselves in reactor scaling from the DS, rather than in the ICS. (and the fact that that is a similar route that Curtis claims to have used, does not in any way link the people that use it (and used it long before the AotC ICS was published) to the ICS, the way that a lot of trekkies claim. Attempting to use the DS novel as justificaiton for lower energy costs is just an argument from ignorance. We have no way of knowing the energy costs of shifting objects as large as a planet into hyperspace, although the surprise at the hyper capable nature of the Death Star seems to imply that that level of energy is not an everyday thing. Also, the knee jerk reactions to attacks on Curtis come not from the use of the numbers, but from the fact that many of them are attacks on a person a lot of us would have called a friend by a person that a lot of us found odious, and not for his views on STvsSW. Tyralak has never been a member of that camp.

Yes, but most topics of the provinence of this one should be allowed to die the slow death they should have had before the poster clicked the submit button.

"Dear Doctor" "Dear Doctor" "Dear Doctor" "Dear Doctor" Nope, he didn't do that, probably because he didn't think of it. Yes he did. In addition, I would like the ruling that Archer (and Janeway) were Captains of Ships that were in only intermittant contact with their authorizing powers, and as such, were "Masters After God" of said ships. He transmitted Earth's coordinates to hostile aliens during a first contact encounter. T'Pol survived "Broken Bow, Part 1" T'Pol is useless as a science officer, and serves mainly to enforce the ships obedience to an ideological orthodoxy. I submit the episodes of Star Trek: Enterprise into the record. I move that my unlettered collegue be dismissed from the case. He is incapable of providing an adequate defense for these two heinous criminals, as he is unable to communicate in english. I would submit that at a minimum, he be required to use a translator when communicating with those that DO speak english. In addition, his moral relativism is offensive, and might cause the jury to dislike him, and therefore dislike his clients. A speedy resolution to these issues is desireable, and as such it would probably be best to offer the guilty as few illegitimate grounds for appeal as possible. A retrial with competent representation would simply waste the court's time.

What exactly do you think a 1KT explosion looks like outside an atmosphere?

That is the SDN interpretation of canon...

Thanks... Well, you see, I was planning on doing some selective quoting to demonstrate that ST firepower is rougly in line with what you'd expect out of a particulaly small pistol. I think Jason provided us with a number of examples of that.

I bring charges of genocide, incompetence, and failure to put the commissar out the airlock (Archer only).

Hey Praeothmin? Does this mean I can do hard interpretations of of Star Trek dialog now? Or are you going to conceed that you are being an overly pedantic jerk in this thread?

HOLY NECROMANCY BATMAN! Can you please add some real content if you do an 8 month necro?

WHICH ONE OF YOU FOOLS POLLUTED THE ST VS. SW FORUM? I SWEAR, THIS JOB IS WORK... WORK... WORK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0x1ViJYJGk How do YOU feel about this ultimate version of the Voyager interpretation of the Prime Directive? Great line: "Darth Duchess is waiting."

GONZO!!!! What are you doing with that iPod? Stop posting right now!

I may do that, but first: Will that make my ears bleed with rage if I do so?

Not aware of much of the setting for 40k. What're the details?

Yup. It's worth noting that the technology of battletech is specifically designed to make things make at least some sense. Jumpships are such precious resources that people don't want to risk them, and even that technological world makes very little sense.

Which is exactly the reason that MACO's make no sense. Even at the Star Trek level of technology, there is very little need for ground troops. Once non-space-hippies have control of the orbital area, any sane planetary government will give up. Ground assaults should only be necessary in the rare case of "have to have it intact" facilities. EDIT: The only reason why we are not in that place now is the need to capture and hold territory.

How does that change his point, you nitpicking fool? BTW, you can't have it both ways, unless O'Brien is Casey Ryback (or at least had the same sort of thing happen to him), he's proof that gold-shirted starfleet personnel (even engineering personnel) were used as ground troops. This is consistent with the Geordi showing up as part of a security detail at least once in TNG. The show treats gold-shirts interchangably.

I also like the fact that he thinks the spac-hippeies started a bunch of Space-Vietnams.... Like that's ever going to happen. Weren't standard star fleet types used in "A Private Little War" (or something like that)?

How the heck do I not get a posrep for that? P.S. Enigma.... This IS the episode where Phlox refused to save the race he could cure...

<Looks at thread title> This'll be good. Why is this relevant? We don't condem the religious interpretation of the prime directive because of the results, we condem it because it encourages evil acts. Allowing the Valakians to die was an evil act, no matter if they actually died or not. Were the Nazis any less evil because some Jews survived? What about Rowanda? Darfur? None of those genocides are 100% effective, but yet they are still evil. "The only thing neccessary for evil to triumph in this world is for good men to do nothing."

Jesus, I haven't see this much deluded, ignorant text since Darkstar was banned from SDN. First, have you done any research on this board, or have you read through the asvs archives on google? Since the answer is obviously no, I suggest you do so. There is a reason why it is suggested that people lurk before they post. Second, please at least finish a junior high level science course before attempting to make assumptions about physics. The comments about lasers make you look like an unlettered idiot. Debates - especially weapons debates - can get quite math heavy. The physics involved in anything to do with analyzing weapons yields are also quite heavy. Thirdly, you appear to be including the ST techinical manuals in your "version" of canon. That is not the best idea, simply because of the numerous low end sources I could pull from it, but it is also in direct contravention of CBS's stated canon policy. Fourthly, You have made a number of claims, it is your responsibility to provide evidence for these claims. This is said as a moderator: YOU WILL PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF PHOTON TORPEDO YIELD, FROM ACCEPTED CANON SOURCES, ALONG WITH ERROR BARS AND AN EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU FEEL THAT YOUR NUMBERS ARE THE BEST FIT. YOU WILL PROVIDE A MECHANISM WHERE LASERS WOULD BE VISIBLE FROM THE SIDE AT THE INTENSITIES OBSERVED IN STAR WARS ABSENT AN ATMOSPHERE. YOU WILL PROVIDE A MECHANISM FOR LASERS TO PROPOGATE AT LESS THAN THE LOCAL SPEED OF LIGHT. A COPY OF YOUR NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS FOR DISCOVERING SAID MECHANISM WILL DO IF THIS IS YOUR OWN WORK. YOU WILL PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT STAR WARS SHIELDS DO NOT HAVE SELECTIVE PERMIABILITY TO BOTH PHYSICAL OBJECTS AND THE ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRUM.