Questor

It could also have been a planet the size of mercury. Hell, we could try and compute the size based on redshift of the stars around it. Does anyone want me to tell them what the mass is of the planet based on the gravitational effects? ....ANYBODY?

Could be what? Too many Star Trek (and Star Wars) debators (my autocorrect put debacles there, which was funny enough that it deserved mentioning.) treat sensors like the magic map in Harry Potter. The real world doesn't work that way. There are generally trade offs. One of the most common in sensing devices is range/resolution.

Or they could have been long range, low resolution, rather than having higher resolutions. Just because you know somethings out there, doesn't mean you can localize it.

PROVE IT, WITH MATH.

Is this a joke? Sheer mass gets the DS though.

Now apply that information to the rest of my post, and to Enigma's.

You have stated that it is the hardest material known, how can they cut it? P.S. Ore is useless unless you can refine it. In order to refine it, you need to melt it. P.P.S. Hardness <> Strength 1. Your math is incorrect. 21.4 == 21.4 2. Tritanium is an ore. Do you know the difference between an ore, and alloy, and a mineral? (Cinnibar is an ore, mercury is an element.)

Actually, it's possible (if unlikely) that they might be able to carry more even if they are the same size. If the QT is storable in an even slightly more efficient way, then that could result in differences. The worst case would be if the QT and PT require different stowage systems, then you probably have a fixed mix of both that cannot be changed. Additional reloads could be carried in a palletized form, and surely would be on a warship, but without being in the magazine, they are of little use from a tactical perspective.

Do the lot of you need a planetoid to come by to shut you up?

Yes, the phase cloak is one of the instances I was referring to when I said the romulans would have been justified in withdrawing from the treaty. I'm really not sure what the point of this topic is, though.

Have you not been paying attention to your other thread?

Once again, the treaty could have been repudiated. Nothing you have said addresses that possibilit.. What are you trying to prove here, anyway?

Where did anyone agree that none of the empire's sensors would pick up ST cloaking devices? Fanboy? Raycav? Was it you? This is actually a wonderful scenario for the SW cloak, though. So, I turn it back on you. 100 Galaxy Gun missiles are fitted with SW cloaks programmed to activate after firing and set to detonate based on gravitational readings (trek doesn't know the fusing of course.) they are fired at earth, what do you do?

I'd add some caveats regarding the utter useles of the CGT in any other circumstances, but pretty much. My guess is that a CGT could probably give you bearing pretty exactly, but range/mass would be a related function. I.E. An object might be closer and smaller or farther away and bigger. That last caveat assumes a stationary target. Anything moving at relativistic velocities will allow a lot of information leakage.

Never said Graviton wasn't a real word. I checked the unabridged dictionary behind my desk and online and only found sci-fi related references to Gravitic. BTW, the quantum mechanics graviton and the ST graviton bear absolutely zero relationship. And bringing in a theoretical particle that violates some parts of relativistic physics isn't going to help in this debate. That definition also doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Searching for that definition does turn up an entry for that definition, in a sci-fi dictionary. I'm going to assume that was a mistake rather than dishonest debating.

I actually think we agree on this. (aside from mechanism). Basically, I'm saying that you need to be careful with the assumption that "Gravitic" means it's detecting the gravitational field, rather than the hypothetical particle.. BTW, I did offer an alterrnative. Gravitic sensors detect graviton particles. Edit: Get this, there is a graviton field in ST as well. Explicitly stated to be related to artificial gravity. Looking at Memory Alpha, gravitons do seem distinct from mass based gravity, and more associated with artificial gravity. The only exception involves subspace. So, it's possible that the "Gravitic Sensor Net" detected the particles from the artificial gravity used in ships and in warp fields. BTW, this is simply spitballing. If the producers had used real words I'd have conceded.

It was still post "Way of the warrior", so I don't understand what the point of the discussion is. Sisco violated the treaty. On top of other violations, the Romulans would have been completely justified in repudiating the treaty.

Really? Aside from the idiotic shit in the Thrawn trilogy, the best uses would be covert insertion style operations. It's useless from a tactical standpoint, yes, but the ability to, for example, emplace recon satellites, would still have uses.

I believe I said that in the latter part of my rant about why this is a pointless argument. To further belabor the point. There are other ways of detecting a cloaked ship than direct detection, they are simply impractical in the ST paradigm. Coordinated blind fire by light weapons is a simple one. There are others. Can we please just admit cloaking is a tactical dead end, whatever the strategic value a few cloaked ships would be? Also, before anyone starts trying to treat cloaking like zoom and boom tactics, it's never been used that way, and there have been cases where it would have been useful.

One doesn't follow the other, especially as we have no idea of the operating mechanism or mode of the "Gravitic" (which is not a real word - and most definitely does not imply gravity, no matter what it sounds like.) sensor. Perhaps it picks up "gravitons?" (a particle mentioned many times in Trek). The word that would imply the functionality you are trying for is "gravitational." Leaving mechanism aside, are you claiming that ST ships have no mass?

Leaving aside the generalization problem. This is a place where brute force will get the job done (at least by current physics) and finesse probably doesn't do the job. Assumptions: Crystal Grav Field Trap detects gravitational fields from cloaked vessels. Cloaked vessels still have gravitational fields, as having the cloaking field negate the gravitational field negated would have interesting and very observable consequences. Star Trek sensors are, in general (and mass for mass), better than Star Wars sensors of the same type. Gravity behaves in much the same way in both universes as it does in ours. Reasoning: Star Trek sensors are demonstrated to be able to detect large variations in gravitational fields, planetary level fields are easily detected, even from a distance. The gravitational field from a cloaked ship would be MANY, MANY orders of magnitude smaller than the gravitational fields normally detected by ST sensors. A CGT can detect these minute changes, but is a specialized piece of equipment not normally deployed at even the capitol world of the New Republic. I would suspect that they are very rare, very expensive, and probably guarded like a command ship during combat. There is very little need for them in the Star Wars universe because the cloaking technology of Star Wars has such massive drawbacks as to make its use unheard of. The fact that cloaking technology does exist, and would possibly allow for very effective espionage type activities makes CGTs far more useful in a fixed capacity. The analogy for SW is not submarines, as it is in ST. This implies that CGTs are probably deployed only in the absolutely most sensitive areas, such as the bastions of the core. Star Trek could probably build the equivelent of a CGT, but as they have other methods of detecting ships cloaked with the kind of cloaking fields they normally deal with, there is no reason to do so. As the ability to detect those types of gravitational changes would have very little use outside of detecting cloaked ships. (We're talking I can't think of a single one before the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole), it would not be rational to assume the development of similar sensors occured. At the level necessary for the dignosis of artificial gravity, sensors such as those existing on modern iPhones would be perfectly adequite. Going out on a tangent (and introducing a completely different Sci-Fi universe for illustration) in Weber's Honorverse, almost all propulsion and long range sensor and communication technology is based on gravity manipulation, and I don't think that THAT universe has a sensor that would match the CGT at useful tactical ranges for the ST universe, much less Honorverse. So, in summary, the CGT is such a specialized sensor designed to defeat a specialized type of cloaking device, that there is no reason to assume the development of equivelent sensors in other universes unless the equivelent cloak exists. An additional note is that I don't really understand the fixation on CGTs. Star Wars cloaks are useless tactically, and Star Trek cloaks have other vulnerabilities that render the need for CGTs moot. If someone can come up with a reason the CGT is actually relevant for any kind of Vs scenario, I'd be appreciative. Its like arguing that we should use Magnetic Anamoly Detectors to detect stealth aircraft. A second note: For anyone interested, this kind of situation is exactly why a no-limits fallacy is such a no-no. Just because you have gravity sensors, it does not necessaryly imply that you have gravity sensors with the kind of sensitivity that is being discussed here. Nor does the mere existence of a piece of technology imply that it will be available for use. The fact that Coruscant did not have a CGT implies that the devices are obscenely rare. A final edit: It occurs to me that I never took an actual position on the topic. Yes, a CGT could probably detect a cloaked ST ship. No, it doesn't matter because CGTs are so rare as to be unheard of. This has absolutely no bearing on the potential detectability of ST ships, as ST cloaking devices have a number of other known vulterabilites that the additional mass available to many SW ships would make easier to exploit (neutrino and tachyon detection being wonderful examples). Brute force sometimes has a finesse all its own, to paraphrase a military maxim. Unless someone is proposing that ST would attempt to mount a massive attack on only the most secure worlds of the Empire (or New Republic), without bothering to attack other words, I don't really see the value in this discussion.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS IS AN ENGLISH LANGUAGE FORUM?

THIS IS AN ENGLISH LANGUAGE FORUM, JASON.

AS QUESTOR HAS HIS FORFEIT, THIS IDIOTIC THREAD IS LOCKED.

That was after Sisko ignored the treaty, and during a war with someone other than the romulans. What moronic set of circumstances made you think the treaty still applied?