InvaderSkooj

Needs a repost all I see is "Posted Image"

Meh, ours is supposed to eat us in a few billion years or so when it expands to a red giant

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6jQZ9yTMM&feature=related

UFP FAILS THEY HAVE NO CHOPPER

Well he has a point

snip

 

As usual You refuse to provide evidence and ignore anything you don't like, this will be my last reply as continued debate is pointless

 

 

 

 

 

You claim it can be done with 36MT (give or take a few KT) per cannon, assuming each of an ISD's cannons fire 1 shot per second, for which, again, you failed to provide supporting evidence that all 100 cannons could fire at the same time. You say your estimates are not far out, except for the fact that HTLs are supposedly much more powerful then MTLs, which in turn are much more powerful then LTLs. So in fact, your calculations use a RoF far too high, and would leave the HTLs at levels far above your 36MT per cannon…

ISD mk II carries 64 heavy guns on the top of the hull, I assumed another 36 on the sides (rpg stats give a mk2 100 heavy guns) which were seen to be able to fire at an angle to the plane of the hull. An ISD with its top facing the planet and angled slightly away should be able to bring all 64 turret guns plus all its trench guns to bear on a large target such as a planet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mentioned the "Nuclear Winter" paper which stated that a 5000MT war would be devastating to the human race. While the death toll in the articles (relating to the paper) to which I had access were exaggerated a bit, the facts remain that 5000MT over multiple days would be an ecological disaster.

 

 

 

I then pointed out how this is 47 times less energy then would be distributed by the 3 ISDs in 1 day, and that it could wipe human life of the planet, based on what 5000MT could do.

ie Provided no evidence that 259 gigatons would wipe out all life on a planet

 

 

 

 

 

p.742

 

The energy of the K/T impact is estimated at 108 MT

 

from the size of the Chicxulub crater, and a consistent value

 

of the size of the impactor (10–15-km diameter) is derived

 

from the observed extraterrestrial component in the boundary

 

layer. Immediate effects of the impact included blast and

 

the generation of tsunami (since the impact occurred in a

 

shallow sea). However, the primary agents of global stress

 

appear to have been a short-lived firestorm from atmospheric

 

heating of reentering ejecta followed by a persistent

 

(months to years) blackout due to particulates suspended

 

in the stratosphere. Other possibly important effects could

 

have included chemical changes in the oceans and atmosphere

 

and large climatic oscillations following the impact.

 

Toon et al. (1997) review all these environmental effects

 

and their dependence on impact energy. Their chief goal

 

was to provide relatively simple prescriptions for evaluating

 

the importance of impacting objects over a range of energies

 

and compositions. Since mass extinction events such

 

as the K/T impact are rare (intervals of tens to hundreds of

 

million years), we are especially interested in downscaling

 

to determine the thresholds for damage on timescales more

 

relevant to human history (cf. Toon et al., 1994, and Covey

 

et al., 1994, for earlier discussions).

 

The threshold for atmospheric penetration of impacts,

 

required for the blast effects to reach the ground, is at a

 

few megatons (Chyba et al., 1993; Hills and Goda, 1993;

 

Chyba, 1993). Below this energy, the atmosphere protects

 

us against all but the rare metallic projectiles. For impacts

 

above this threshold, the primary effects of both airbursts

 

and ground impacts are local blasts and earthquakes, together

 

with the setting of local fires. The Tunguska explosion

 

of an NEA ~60 m in diameter provides a relatively

 

small example. Such impacts cause little harm if they enter

 

over the oceans. However, at sizes of hundreds of meters,

 

oceanic impacts dominate the hazard calculations as a result

 

of impact-induced tsunami (Hills and Goda, 1993; Hills

 

et al., 1994; Hills and Mader, 1997; Toon et al., 1997;

 

Crawford, 1998; Ward and Asphaug, 2000). Tsunami waves

 

provide a relatively efficient way to carry the impact energy

 

to large distances. This fact, coupled with concentration of

 

human habitation near the shore, makes tsunami important

 

for energies of tens of thousands of megatons or greater

 

(NEA diameters of hundreds of meters). While there is considerable

 

uncertainty in both the height of the open-ocean

 

wave and the run-up as it reaches the shore, Toon et al.

 

(1997) conclude that large tsunami, occurring with average

 

frequency of tens of thousands of years, contribute much

 

more to the hazard than do terrestrial impacts in the same

 

energy range.

 

The global environmental stress from the K/T event was

 

dominated by a prompt firestorm followed by longer-lasting

 

dust loading of the atmosphere. There is direct evidence in

 

the boundary clay for the soot produced by burning a large

 

fraction of the terrestrial biomass. In addition, analogous

 

effects seen following the impacts of Comet Shoemaker-

 

Levy 9 with Jupiter in July 1994 have been extensively

 

modeled (Boslough et al., 1994; Zahnle and MacLow, 1994,

 

1995). A global firestorm can be ignited by hot debris falling

 

back into the atmosphere on ballistic trajectories from

 

the ejecta plume, as first suggested by Melosh et al. (1990).

 

Most of the energy is deposited in the mesosphere (where

 

meteors shine), with radiative heating of the lower atmosphere

 

and surface. Toon et al. conclude that while this mechanism

 

was important in the K/T event, where it was the probable

 

direct cause of the extinction of large land animals such

 

as the dinosaurs, it does not produce surface temperatures

 

high enough for ignition at impact energies below 107 MT.

 

Global darkness from the absorption of sunlight by

 

ejected dust was the prime agent of the K/T extinction as

 

suggested by Alvarez et al. (1980). Toon et al. (1997), drawing

 

in part on a large literature dealing with volcanic dust

 

and the stratospheric soot from nuclear war, calculated the

 

effects of dust loading on atmospheric circulation under

 

various scenarios. General circulation models (GCMs) permitted

 

them to follow the postimpact development of the

 

suspended dust and calculate the resulting surface temperatures.

 

As we might expect, the results depend in significant

 

ways on the target material (land or ocean) and the season

 

of impact, but less on exact geographic location, since the

 

dust cloud quickly expands to global scales. Since these

 

effects extend down to impacts as small as 105 MT, they

 

dominate in determining the threshold for global disaster,

 

defined by Chapman and Morrison (1994) as an environmental

 

catastrophe capable of killing 25% of the world’s

 

population, primarily from the agricultural losses of an “impact

 

winter.†Toon et al. (1997) conclude that the energy

 

range between 105 and 106 MT is transitional between regional

 

and global effects, with a mean value for the threshold

 

of global catastrophe near 106 MT energy, corresponding

 

to an NEA diameter of ~2 km.

 

Pope (2002) has recently questioned the assumptions

 

made by Toon et al. (1997) (and others previously) concerning

 

the quantity of submicrometer dust injected into the

 

stratosphere. This fine dust has not been measured directly

 

in the K/T boundary layer, and inferring its quantity indirectly

 

introduces substantial uncertainty into the estimate

 

of the threshold energy for a global catastrophe. This uncertainty

 

could be as great as a factor of ±10 in energy, corresponding

 

to a diameter for an asteroid of 1–4 km.

 

 

 

And I can't believe you think this describes "localized effects" I guess up in crazyland "global" means something entirely different than global

 

 

 

From Houghton -Mifflin onlin dictionary

 

1. Having the shape of a globe; spherical.
2. Of, relating to, or involving the entire earth; worldwide: global war; global monetary policies.
3. Comprehensive; total: "a . . . global, generalized sense of loss"(Maggie Scarf)

Right, exactly like what would happen with 259 200 blasts of 1Mton each impacting all over the planet within 24 hours…

Which you've provided no evidence to support

 

 

 

Impressive how our planet survived 38 such hits at the same time… Oh, wait, except they didn't all hit at once, they hit many years apart, and each of these hits was localized…

Yet the 38 mentioned are each individually more powerful than the figure you keep harping out

 

 

 

Let's see, we're supposed to believe that your Caamas calculations, that yielded around, what, 1 Teraton per guns, are in line with TESB, which shows us low Kilotons to low Megatons, even from HTLs?

Actually it was Megatons per shot as I explained in post 104

 

 

 

We're supposed to believe that the HTLs were dialed down a million times for the asteroid scene destruction?

 

Yeah, right…

Ahh not paying attention again, nowhere in this thread have I claimed teratons per shot. My initial premise was three SDs delivering 1 petaton over 24hrs. Incidentally this is 6 times less than the postulated wilkes or shiva impacts with 48km asteroids

 

 

 

Really, that scene was a few days long, AND they didn't have any shields left after only a few days?

Presumably they were being hit contantly as per the novelization, and having to negate bridge smashing asteroids the entire time all of which takes energy

 

 

 

Wow, I wonder what could have taken those shields out, after all, they can take Petatons before failing, and those asteroids were barely in the Kiloton range (the one that destroyed the tower, at least)…

Except I never claimed petatons

 

 

 

Well, first of all, I don't pretend it's an upper limit, I say it is close to their maximum power. I don't mind believing they can fire 10 times this power, but at least my calculations are better then some wanked up imaginary numbers dreamed up by people using 1 instance in the lowest canon which is also contradicted by another incident in the same level of canon…

Obviously you werent paying attention when I got megatons for individual shots, and that same contratdict you keep harping on directly contradicts higher canon, my calc is in the same OoM required to negate a bridge smashing asteroid

 

 

 

Problem for your imaginary numbers is that TCW (low kiloton) is closer to TESB in Firepower then your wanked up Caamas numbers, show similar power to RotS, so guess what source contradicts G canon more…

really now?

 

 

 

Oh, by the way, in case you had not seen the prequels, TCW weapons effects are in line with what is seen in RotS, as far as Capship vs Capship damage is concerned, as well as Clones vs Droids…

All of which is quite unquantifiable

 

 

 

Much, much closer to G-canon then imaginary numbers coming from a questionably interpreted event in the EU…

Which as you have shown, you have paid no attention to since my calc worked out to megatons per shot

 

 

 

But "Pegasus" still stands as a valid example of Trek Firepower which is comparable to TESB, as well as the battle scenes in DS9, where we see ships destroying others in one shot (shots which, using visuals, often seem to vaporize much hull materials, sometimes sections between 50-100 meters wide), while the rest of Trek compares to RotS and TCW…

Whatever...given your other examples it seemed you were insinuating more

 

 

 

The very vague Dodonna quote which, for those of us using common sense, was referring to the Turbolaser emplacements…

 

 

 

How would the Superlaser's power be important to fighters which are small enough to evade it, and to pilots who will only have to worry about those Turbolasers?

Oh Lets see other sources the specifically state the quote also refers to the superlaser, and common sense and RotJ tell us the fleet also has capital ships to which the superlaser represents a threat

 

 

 

The reactor scaling has been quite clearly shown to be highly questionable and illogical…

 

Unless, of course, you can provide handheld weapons examples that match the scaling?

 

What I do not ignore is all the instances in TESB, RotS and TCW that show much more numerous examples of actual SW Firepower, far from the wankfest that is the Warsie interpretation of the Dodonna quote, or the scaling of reactor cores…

Yet the energy has to come from somewhere, and as you have shown you consider anything not explicitly shown to be wrong, unless it is a poor showing of course

 

 

 

I'm not, you're the one who wants to ignore Darksaber because it contradicts your wankfest, while the Darksaber example is closer in scope to TESB, RotS and TW displayed Firepowers…

 

Darksaber contradicts ESB thus is invalid, my calcs are closer to ESB then the explicit non-nuclear effects in darksaber

I'll post the rest later, the board keeps trying to eat my post or display a bunch of gibberish

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and read post #104 you've apparently missed something

Relevant because the EU is all over the place, just like ST, and as I stated before, for every quote of great power or great numbers of ships, there's another one to the contrary…

None of which are terminally irreconcilable with higher showings

 

 

 

The possibility is still there, and it can have an effect…

Which is irrelevant, since you can't quantify it in any way

 

 

 

Funny how the paper, again, mentions only 5000 to 10 000 Megatons in its analysis, while my calculations show, at minimum, 23 to 47 times that number of impacts and power…

Which you have made out to much more severe than demonstrated

 

 

 

You also seem to ignore that, since these impacts are localized, their effects over the rest of the world will be less then locally, and will have taken a lot of time, allowing survival of the fittest…

Since when is an impact capable flinging super heated eject around the world localized

 

 

 

And you keep ignoring all the fires and firestorms that will be created by these 259 200 1Mton bolts hitting the surface of the planet, plus the dust storms, plus the earthquakes, plus the falling buildings in the cities, etc, etc…

Which does jack outside the blast radii of the individual 1 MT shots

 

 

 

Almost all the surface of the world would be affected by these events, because these blasts would be local blasts all over the world, and thus their effects almost instantaneous and the entire planet would be covered by the dust clouds created by these blasts.

As it would be by a much by a much larger teraton+ impact

 

 

 

That would result in an uninhabitable surface, with polluted oceans, and no remaining eco-system: the Death of the planet…

Which you have privided no evidence to support, As shown on p.742 the nuclear winter effects (to include global firestorms caused by ejecta) failed to wipe out everything on the planet

 

 

 

And these are only with the main guns, still ignoring the damage from the secondary guns, and assuming a ROF of 1 1Mton shot per second. If they fire 2 shots per second…

Still doesn't add up to the sum of known event that failed to wipe out life on Earth

I vote shoot him in the back of the head, and bill his heirs for the bullet

First of all, even combined, the ejecta hitting Earth didn't do NEARLY as much damage as the inital 100 teraton blast did. Not even close.

Which is irrelevant to the original point

 

 

 

About the Nuclear Winter thing, while it is true most life would survive the initial conflict, the effects of cold, darkness, fires, and radiation would wipe out most of the survivors. This wouldn't be a Hiroshima or Nagasaki-like scenario, where the U.S. provided medical aid during the occupation of Japan. There would be little infrastructure left, if any, and if any hospitals survived, they'd be so under-staffed and under-equipped that there'd be little hope for anyone. If any life would survive the after-effects, it would be radiation-resistant bacteria and life at geothermal vents in the deep ocean. Why would most life in the ocean be wiped out? Just after the Hiroshima blast, the radioactive fallout from the bomb causeed water to condense around it, and a black rain fell. This rain was radioactive due to the fallout serving as the condensatory nucleus, and wreaked havoc on the ecosystem and survivors. This black rain would inevitably fall into the oceans, and on a planet-wide scale, would do immense ecological damage.

Also irrelevant TLs dont cause radioactivity. Asteroids also cause nuclear winter effects( impact winters) yet failed to wipe out life on Earth many times.

 

 

 

Why is the ball that's holding the antimatter so small? Maybe the antimatter is in a dense state. There are denser concentrations of matter in real life. A matchbox-sized amount of material from a white dwarf has the same mass as an elephant. And why does it seem so light? Inertial Dampeners? Technobabblium?

Occam's razor bitchslaps you in the face

 

 

 

As for the fraction-of-a-second fireball, probably was just due to none of the writers knowing or really caring about how long the mushroom cloud would last.

 

And if we want to go down this road, TCW FULLY SUPPORTS ICS

No one said ST wasn't inconsistent. Would that be one of these "Red Herrings" you like to throw around? And what this proves, dear friend, is that Thrawn, without many ships, was still considered a viable threat, and that an addition of 200 ships made the Republic think that these 200 ships could tip the scale in his favor... 200 ships... In a galaxy supposedly filled with 25 000 SDs and over a million capital ships... Now why is it that only rabid fans think all of this is logical?

Irrelevant

 

 

 

So the power could still have been generated...

Or it might not have, and if so yield is unknown

No problem, they still have Anti-grav, planetary Shield Generators, etc...

As you have said before no mention is made of it in the books, and the shields were of course sabotaged

Right here actually

Funny how it isnt in the actual paper

 

 

 

That's for having "only" 5000 to 10000 Mtons used on Earth. Now imagine 235000 Mtons in less then 24 hours... I extrapolate from analyses by Scientific experts analyzing real-world data and science well mastered by modern humans. Data which I provided... Now, what proof do you have that 235000Mtons fired around the world for 24 hours could not do the same?

You keep neglecting the molten ejecta flung into orbit, that is going to fall back down all over the planet starting planet wide wildfires and when in doubt there's always the Multiple Impact theory

 

 

 

You mean, the one impact that KILLED OFF THE MAJOR LIVING RACES ON THE PLANET AT THAT MOMENT? THE ONE IMPACT THAT ALMOST WIPED OUT EVERY LIVING THING ON EARTH EVEN THOUGH IT HAD HIT ONLY 1 LOCATION ON EARTH? Yes, life did survive, because we received 1, and only 1, big impact, and almost all life was extinct. Imagine 24 hours of such bombardment, all over the planet, where no ground is left untouched by such an event...

As shown on p.80; orbital ejecta will potentially leave no part of the planet untouched

 

 

 

Hhhmm, no. I provided scientific papers by reputed Scientists stating a Nuclear war could very well cause near human extinction, while using only a fraction of my calculated figures for the Caamas bombardment (47 times for 5000Mtons or 23.5 times for 10000Mtons). Why don't you prove 235000Mtons distributed over the world couldn't do that?

And much greater releases of nonnuclear energy have failed to wipe out life on earth time and time again http://www.unb.ca/pa...ameterSort3.htm

 

Every crater 22km+ represents an impact greater than 250 gigatons of which there are 38 or so

 

 

 

Well, since TESB contradicts your Caamas figures, since TCW contradicts your Caamas figures, and since your Caamas figures are in the same canon level as Darksaber, then yes, your Caamas figures are countered by Darksaber. Just because you don't like them doesn't make the Darksaber figures any less valid then your Caamas ones.

Explain how it contradicts ESB, as I said DS explicitly states the TL to be at max power, and the damage is less than ESB, contradicting higher canon. TCW can also be considered to contradict higher canon if you take the TCW visuals at face value

 

 

 

The ISD that got its tower destroyed by that low-level Kinetic Impactor says they were... The Captain that said, while reporting to Vader, and I quote: "Considering the damage we've sustained, they must have been destroyed!" They say the asteroids were a problem to your super ISDs...

Yup after days of wandering around the asteroid field being hit all the time and the whole lack of shields.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, the logical one... By the way, by "weak", I mean the low Kton to low Mton range, which are very weak compared to the WankICS. Like I said, I have no problems with the TESB interpretation, it's the one I use...

Yes and pretend it somehow represents a upper limit

 

 

 

What the heck are you smoking? In "Shadows of the Malevolence", Y-Wing fighters are a danger to the big ass Ship of Doomtm of Grevious... In "Downfall of a Droid", AT-TEs are destroying Separatist Capital ships... In "Strom over Ryloth", three Venators are taken out by less then 20 droid starfighters, who are not even using torpedoes or missiles... So no, unlike your very-personal-not-supported-one-bit-by-the-show interpretation, TCW does indeed weak weapons and shields for SW Capships... You know, those very Capships using HTLs equivalent to the ISD ones according to your lovable ICS books (the RotS one)...

As I said taking TCW visuals at face value would contradict G canon

 

 

 

I agree, it does indeed depend upon interpretations. Some wishful, some depending on facts (like TESB asteroid scenes and TCW battle scenes)...

Which appear to contradict G canon when taken at face value

 

 

 

 

Well, you'll have to prove that what was seen wasn't a fireball at it would be seen from E-D's postiion...

An actual 500megaton-1 gigaton explosion would create a fireball that lasts 73-100 seconds not the fraction of a second seen in SoE

 

 

 

 

 

And this was discussed before here, and I stated that the Shuttle's engines had been drained of power, so no more M/AM reaction.

Odd the episode makes no mention of deactivated antimatter. Also if it was truly powerless as you claim, blowing it up so the alien couldn't leave the planet was redundant, with no power for shields 500-1000 megatons to destroy a shuttle is excessive and entirely out of character for Picard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But even if it did contribute, and the Torpedo had done only 10% of the damage, this still gives a Torpedo in the 100Mtons range...

 

As shown by this torpedo warhead, It is nowhere nearly big or heavy enough to possibly contain enough anti-deuterium for a 500-1000MT explosion(23-46kg minimum)

 

Given how hes barely holding it I doubt it contains enough antimatter for a 100MT explosion either

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, this "low-power" event that Warsies like to use as an example of low Trek Firepower yields results similar to those of TESB... And those are with conservative scaling, using the least likely interpretation of Riker's comment, thus making me use "fragmentation" instead of melting or even vaporization... Please explain why I would be joking...

You just used skin of evil as an example of high firepower

 

 

 

 

 

. If you want to argue that higher canon fits with your interpretation, you will, of course, provide all calculations doing so using the higher canon material, such as the movies and TCW series...

Which you've already dismissed out of hand, dodonna quote, reactor scaling etc. And of course you keep insisting ESB is some sort of upper limit which is patently wrong. Using your logic, presuming the asteroids vaporized were the same size as the one that struck the bridge tower(to prevent them from blowing up the bridge tower) produces energy figures in the same order of magnitude as I calced for a single shot

 

 

 

 

 

And of course here you go wanting to throw out the EU again

Perhaps not but considering the variety of effects and abilities we have seen from phasers a NDF and DET effect may just be 2 options they have depending on how you set them.

Only at the most minimum level

How they supposed to get through 75km of deathstar to the reactor

Then UFP send 99% the speed of light and rammed into that star destoryer set mines at the secound it hits the shields. The gunmmen crew still only have secounds to react if even. Shuttlecaft using EW to making even harder to hit.

 

Except we've never seen a shuttle going .99c

That shuttlecaft most time going near warp one the Star Destoyer would not have time react. Also the forgive me they do spread ant matter hulls not that do much good because ant matter contact with normal matter it expodes. In star Terk univerce you be right but in ISD is weakess smell fighters it beside UFP shuttlecafts have all kinds of senser tricks. The Star Destoyer gunner crew would be shoting in the dark.

A shuttle at warp would have to drop to impulse to attack, given how JH bugs have only been seen to ram at impulse and the Klingons and everybody else cant warp strafe DS9; a nice nearly immobile target

 

 

 

Pretty good for cheap ass DSL

Not likely case here see for yourself that what photon torpedo look like inside ant matter mine photon torpedo most likely same kind warhead. Ant matter mines some how able to travel to the enemy spacecraft blow up right next it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So the shuttlecaft most likley take the Star Destoyers shields in the blasted and did it heavy damage.

Shuttles are bigger than mines or torpedoes and more likely to be hit by LTLs

Blows up when a bug rams it

JH battleships are huge, one should rape a GCS

I do not think that the MK 1s had dorsal weapons. Their weapons layout was different than the MK 2s.

ISD Mk 1 6xtwin HTL + 2x twin Heavy Ion cannon

 

http://www.theforce....rd/ISD_Guns.jpg

 

 

 

ISD mk II 8x octuple HTL

 

http://www.theforce....oklyn/Isd09.jpg

While I do agree it has nothing to do with the Firepower, I'm using them to show that the EU shoots holes in many accepted claims for SW, such as large forces, and also the accepted values on Firepower...

ST is just as inconsistent with the added bonus its all the same level of canon. All it proves is Thrawn didnt have access to many ships

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How, disabled as "cannot turn the shields on" or as "all power generators on the planet have been shut down"?

 

Pretty important information...

 

The generators were still there, even if they were not able to send their power to the shields.

 

A car still has fuel even if the engine cannot use it because its engine has been sabotaged an cannot start...

Unknown the books only say sabotaged, don't elaborate on how.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, because modern day Earth uses antigrav on buildings and vehicules, planetary shields for protection, Turbolaser and Ion canon emplacements...

No mention is ever made of turbolasers or ion cannons on Caamas, who are described in other books as being pacifistic. Nor have you shown how an unknown number of power generators is going to contibute significantly to an extinction level event

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, you first stated that the Caamas destruction was completed in 24 hours while the description gives no support to your assessment.

 

So then, you first have to provide proof that what you say is true.

simple enough

 

 

 

NJO sourcebook p.45

 

 

 

Caamas is now a dead world. Devastated shortly after the Clone Wars by an orbital bombardment ordered by the Emperor, Caamas's vegatation and animal life - including most of the Caamasi people- died in the space of a day.

 

 

 

 

 

The book only states that the Bombardment lasted for 24 hours.

 

It did say that Caamas was destroyed and devoid of life immediately after the last shot was fired, which is what you argue for, so you need to provide proof of what you argue for.

 

Since you haven't yet, and I've linked to an article describing the destruction in question, I've done far more then you did...

Nope all I'm arguing is the bombardment lasted no more than a day, and everything died

 

 

 

Oh, and here's where modern scientists disagree with you:

 

http://en.wikipedia....bal_nuclear_war

 

 

 

A war using the total arsenal at our disposal would be catastrophic for the human race.

 

And that arsenal is only 5000 Mtons, fas less then what those 3 ISDs would be raining down on Caamas...

 

Again, since the description doesn't state, at all, that the destruction of all life on the planet is complete immediately after the bombardment, then Occam can sleep well tonight...

Now, show where the hippy scientist's paper says where its going to kill everything on the planet.

 

 

 

Its pretty irrelevant otherwise, SINCE LIFE ON THIS PLANET SURVIVED THE IMPACT and IMPACT WINTERS OF EVERY MAJOR ASTEROID STRIKE SINCE THE CREATION OF LIFE.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought Wookiepedia took their information from the books.

 

I will check the books, but don't expect the quotes to come quickly...

Since the actual sentence isnt explicitly sourced, it may not be exactly worded

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then you should have written "The Destruction was complete immediately after the bombardment", it would have helped your arguments...

By all means prove your low yield nuclear winter is going to kill everything on the planet

 

 

 

And the Caamas bombardment is still countered by the Darksaber one...

and Darksaber is thrown out by ESB, since it is specifically said to be conducted at full power which contradicts the asteroid destruction in ESB, your bizarre interpretation of SW canon aside. Nothing is "countered" by another unless it contradicts a higher source, which the bombardment of Darksaber does

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But it fits with the asteroid vaping calc...

 

If they had such powerful weapons, that means they have very powerful shields, so the asteroids in TESB should not even have been a problem...

Who said they were

 

 

 

The highest canon, the TESB movie, says they have weak weapons and shields...

only by one interpretation

 

The TWC says they have weak weapons or shields...

Again only by one interpretation, which involves doppelgangers or shapeshifters

 

The EU (Caamas incident and Darksaber) says they have very strong weapons and shields, or weak weapons or shields, depending on which book you read...

 

Higher canon has more weight...

Depends entirely on interpretations, since the books with actual numbers in them cant be true

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are ignoring "Rise"

been scaled an calced by people far less biased than RSA results 880kilotons- ~100 megatons depending which torpedoes you use for scaling, and taking the vaporization mentioned in the dialog at face value

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

"Skin of Evil",

No fireball, being shot at warp capable shuttlecraft that carries more AM than a salvo of torpedoes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Pegasus", etc..

Your joking right? .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not the Devil at all, just contradicted and superceded by higher canon like the movies and TCW "cartoon"...

 

No just superceded by your interpretation of canon, and incidents in higher canon

No I meant 8 barrels per side. One barbette with two rows of four turbolasers. Total of 16 turbolasers altogether.

 

 

 

One octuple turbolasers on a barbette mounting on each end of the dorsal side of the command tower for a grand total of two octuple barbette turbolasers.

 

 

 

Clear as mud?

Yeah I was referring to ISD mkII, are apparently refering to a mk I

No just two. An octuple barbette per side. Two rows of four independently controlled (they can be fired independently and not just fired all at the same time) turbolasers.

I was refering to the individual batteries[8 barrels x 4 mounts] as barbettes apparently you were not. you meant 32 barrels per side right

The ISD 2 has two octuple barbette turbolasers on the dorsal side of the command tower.

 

I know. He says they were shooting the asteroids with them

 

 

 

And its like 4 octuple batteries per side

In what book is the Caamas destruction mentioned?

 

I thought it was in the Thrawn trilogy?

 

Still, it is in the EU, from the same author, in the same "timeline", that such a small force of ships are enough to tip the balance.

 

So the example still stands...

Specter of the Past and Visions of the Future, and since we're talking firepower it's still a red herring

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, sure...

 

The problem with your assessment?

 

You seem to conveniently forget that such a planet as Caamas would have power generators, having planetary shields,

disabled

 

 

 

cities using energy, lights, food processors and people needing heat.

as shown by modern life easily accomplished with a few gigawatts

 

 

 

Now imagine a 1 Megaton strike hitting such a generator...

 

Remember the small blast from the AT-AT hitting the power generator on hoth?

 

Remember how it resulted in a bigger blast immediately after?

 

Also, the strikes will go on for 24 hours, 1 Megaton at a time.

 

The Dino-killer was one event, that hit in one location.

 

Here, we're talking about many shots pretty evenly distributed over the entire world.

 

Again, I didn't use the smaller guns, and adding to that the explosion of the generators, the buildings falling down on people and other smaller buildings, etc...

This is where you'd provide evidence why this would make up a significant percentage of the energy required to kill every living thing on the planet. Occams razor frowns upon you

 

 

 

 

 

Another excerp from the Wookiepedia article:

 

 

 

Not all the flora was destroyed immediately by the bombardment...

 

So the destruction, again, was far from complete...

 

And nothing in the destruction specifies that the planet was lifeless immediately after the Bombardment.

 

These effects were long-term effects, nothing instantaneous.

 

Unlike your interpretation of the event...

Now show me the quote from the book that says that, last I checked Wookiepedia wasn't canon. I took that into account 1 petaton probably isnt enough to kill everything in 1 day, just like the 100 teratons didn't kill the dinosaurs in one day. Usually I use 1e25J,and for all you know I put that into the wookiepedia article

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ISDs also have tourbles with rocks, even low kinetic impactors hitting their towers...

And since they spent hours to days in the asteroid field depleting their shields this jives with my firepower calc. ISDs would only have high megatons to low gigatons for shields

 

 

 

The Dominion had not deactivated Cardassian security systems, and were facing Cardassian forces who switched sides, in a conflict that lasted minutes, and yet was sufficient to kill 800 million Cardassians... Try again...

Earlier they killed 2 million in seconds, they have hundreds to thousands of ships available they were supposed to have a fleet of 30,000 remember and going by the number of ships they had more than enough time and ships to TDiC the place

 

 

 

The Breen attacked San francisco specifically, and they were all destroyed by Earth's security Forces/Systems/Ships...

 

Again, no 24 hour bombardment, and the defense systems may have had shields...

 

I do agree this is one weak showing, but you're still ignoring higher showings for ST (as you always do) while I don't ignore higher or lower showings for SW.

 

I'm using TESB for a Firepower benshmark, while the equally valid (equally valid to the Caamas example) "Darksaber" has pathetic levels for SW, which I ignore...

 

How am Ignoring the higher end, TDiC says Earth should be a lifeless planet with 30% of its crust gone. UFP still had no defense againt the breen energy dampening weapon at that point any defenses would have been trivially brushed aside. the Breen had jut gotten through wiping out a fleet remember. Dont ignore higher SW huh, was that a joke? Last I checked ICS was the devil round these parts