Praeothmin

Well, Tyralak, it's been proven that in SW, the Pitbull exerts a force of 200 Gigatons of pressure per square inch with its jaw. I know, I know, you'll ask me why then did it not tear the leg off of the Battle Droid it attacked. Well, that's clearly because the Battle Droid has Neutronium plating in its leg...

What's the story? It seems I missed something...

Well I wouldn't mind seeing Bob Newhart make an appearance in a ST movie...

No, because the "Technobabblium" used in making the Deflector will protect it... Seriously though, I agree that if the Deflector had fired that much energy at the Borg cube, it would have most likely melted away (it and eveything clode to it), and that alone could have destroyed the E-D, safe distance from the Cube or not... But what Tyralak was saying, Enigma, is that this is the same type of absurd reasoning that leads people to claim Petatons for Turbolasers, when an unshielded SSD can be damaged by a crashing A-Wing, or when fighter-grade weaponry (supposedly in the Kiloton range) are a threat to Capital-Ships...

Where the hell does your 720 000 degrees Celcius value come from???

Ok, you lost me here... How the heck do you get a value of 720 000 degrees Celcius based on both events?

Concerning the planetary damage, when you look at the screencaps of the episode, there does seem to be some bright, fiery damage and the shockwaves do seem to continue after the ships stop firing. What could cause this? See here: http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x21/dieiscast_433.jpg (remember Trekcore doesn't allow hotlinking, so copy and paste the link on your browsers) Yes, we conceed you are an imbecile with no arguments of your own, and nothing constructive to say...

After reading all his posts, you have to ask?

Sorry, Phasers are useless against a "Pure Neutronium" hull, not the SW hull plating alloy that buckles upon impact with an A-Wing (the ship went through more then just the windows, it took out the surrounding structures too), an asteroid (unless you are going to say the asteroid was made of neutronium too ), and a crash landing. There's also the fact that any real "neutronium" would be so dense as to crush anyone walking too close to it, such as crewmembers, droids, even shuttles... Sorry, but it just doesn't cut it... I'll let Tyralak discuss the TiDC events with you, I haven't seen it in while and don't have the time to do any kind of research at the moment. Ah, but see, you would not question the fact that your officer told you you could destroy Moscow if it was true. Sure, it was weird that they didn't question why it was that fast, but the fact they did not question the estimated capabilities of their weapons shows that these "power prejections" are not out of the realm of possibilty for ST weapons... See, I'd like to argue and say I disagree, but even to me, it always seemed a bit much, and since, as I mentioned earlier, I don't have the time to do any research, I'll leave the finer points specific to TiDC to you and Tyralak... According to who? What were the sources that specified that a BDZ involved this? According to the WookiePedia, this is what a BDZ means: This statement leaves the door wide open to a multitude of possible interpretations, and closely resembles Starfleet's "General Order 24", which was known to be doable by a lone starship. The molten crust statement, as I recall, came from an extreme interpretation, unsupported by anything seen in the movies, or even in the Clone Wars series... And this asteroid also had an intense magnetic field, which asteroids shouldn't have, so it wasn't your run of the mill asteroid. Also, in Voyager, 1 single torpedo is sufficient to completely destroy a 50-100 meters asteroid (which should have been vaporized if it had been a "normal" one). You see, over the hundreds and hundreds of hours of ST, we have many examples at both ends of the spectrum, while all the live action SW and animated series show us a good, base average. Jango's mine was obviously a special type of weapon (some could say subspace weapon) since its most destructive effect was 2 dimentional... And hed didn't destroy as much as sawed and asteroid in half... not the same... As for sturdiness, the external shell of the E-D survived, intact, the semi-controlled re-entry that the Invisible hand couldn't. The difference is that, while the bridge of the Invisible hand seemed to have good shock absorbers, the E-D's didn't... Guess which bridge I'd rather be on... Still unproven... Actually, even though I don't agree with all his conclusions, I don't agree with your assessment either. Debaters that say their better then him think they have crushed him... But, when you take the time to analyse many of these debates, you realize many of these so called "better debaters" declared victory while they hadn't even answered all his questions or disproven all his points... Not the same thing... Full speed which for ISDs is turtle speed, which means low kinetic impacts... Also, all of the ships were damaged at least in part, because one Captain assumed the Falcon destroyed based on the amount of damage the ISDs had sustained themselves... And we have no indication that the ISD that lost its bridge tower only lost partial functionality, since we see nothing of them afterwards. For all we know, they could have exploded ofscreen later, or they may have needed to be towed out, we simply don't know... See, in this entire SW versus ST debate, the problem comes from debaters entering the fray with preconceived notions from both sides, and with no intention of letting anything change their points of view... This is problematic when most of the debate revolves around unknowns, and when a lot of things must be assumed by one side or the other... Interesting, nonetheless...

First, NDF reactions have never been greatly explained, and while they do have difficulties against denser targets, so do most energy weapons. For example, the Lightsabre, which can supposedly cut through anything, but had trouble cutting through Vader's shoulder pad, and needed time to eventually melt a blast door... Just because it was agreed at SDN, doesn't mean it's true... As for the lasting effects, I don't really remember if we saw some damage on the planet after the attack and I can't access Trekcore from my work PC. Did we see some damage after the attack? And about the changeling's info, that has got to be the lamest explanation ever. If your were captain of a Battleship, and an "Inteligence Officer" told you to shoot at Moscow from the Persian Golf, and that you should expect to destroy Moscow completely within 5 hours, are you telling me that you would not question his findings, on your guns' range and power? Are you telling me ship Captains are appointed to vessels while not knowing at all their weapons' capabilities? I'd agree if the changeling had presented them a "new, prototype" weapon that was slated to do the job, but this doesn't hold against the fact that they were expecting this to be possible with their very own ship's weapons. In TOS, in the second season episode "Bread and Circuses", Claudius Marcus tells Kirk he knows that his ship could "lay waste to this world". Yes, the terms are broad, but this and the "General Order 24" shows us that 1 ship can do immense damage to a planet's surface. Destroy one? I don't think so, but damage immensely, I have no doubt... Which still has yet to be proven, since all the movies and even the Clone Wars series (the highest canon possible) are disproving at an alarming rate. The "Base Delta Zero" has never been seen, and when it is talked about, it doesn't mention the number of ships nor the timeframe. Of course, over at SDN, it was "logicaly" analyzed until it took only 1 ship under 1 hour to do so... depends how you look at it, and who you ask...

Hhhmm, no, what is foreign here is you doing anything constructive instead of insulting people while not having any arguments of your own...

Yeah, we get it SDA: You have no personal opinion on anything and what Wong says is gospel truth to you...

He had already noticed when you came around...

Yes, but the part we saw was the main saucer, where the Warp Core is, and it most likely went boom too, meaning a Warp core explosion, meaning it should have been bigger if these ships were more powerful, as you think... And who says the Mirandas are more powerful in TNG then they were in TOS? The very fact it was easier to create new ships then to upgrade a ship to Lakota standards, like they did on the Excelsior-class, indicates that these ships cannot be upgraded with brand new systems as easily as you seem to think...

Just like detecting Warsie bullshit I guess... Well, since you've yet to come up with a single challenging "rebuttal" to anything and since you only seem to be able to insult people, then I guess they are... For the same reason we have to go through the "Base Delta Zero" bullshit everytime? It's always amusing how TiDC is always vehemently denied as showing anything powerful, yet any low power shot from an ISD seen in the SW movies will see SW fans bending over backwards to explain it away, just to keep their vaunted Gigatons myth intact... Now, am I saying I believe TiDC shows valid ST firepower and should be considered canon, end-of-story? Probably not, but what I am saying is that, it would at least show some honesty in the debate to analyze both sides using the same methods, and the same quantity of SOD... Enigma, has anyone measured the size of those explosions on the surface? That could give us an approximation of the yields seen. Also, I know Hiroshima and Nagasaki could be seen from from orbit. My question is, what did they look like from up there? And how large were they when compared to the planet's diameter? I'm pretty sure they weren't as big as what has been shown in TiDC, even though there's still the question about the appearance of mushroom clouds in orbit, from above the explosions...

Janeway wasn't that ugly. Perhaps compared to the other ST ladies, but on her own, she wasn't ugly. Now, while we discuss ladies' ripped shirts, I'd like to see, in order: T'Pol, 7 of 9, Hoshi, Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax, Kes, Kira, Troi, B'Elanna Torres and Ro Laren... All at the same time...

Yeeeesss, and? That explosion may have been big, but all others, such as in "Sacrifice of Angels", aren't... So, what does that mean? That getting a power value from such explosions is tough, and that there may be more to power generation aboard a Starship then just M/AM reactions...

And what would those mushroom clouds look like from far above, in orbit, like, say, from the firing ships' positions? Actually Enigma, they had to adjust the Phasers because they wanted a fine control over them, and a variance of 0.6 TeraWatts I believe would have been bad. They wanted to avoid some side effects on the planet, and they needed precision drilling, not just power...

Too bad SDA doesn't seem to be here anymore, we would've had some serious opposition, which would have started strong, intelligent debate on the subject... Oh wait...

They're hot to me too, just not hotter, or even as hot as (except maybe for Anna Paquin, now that I've seen some True Blood screencaps ) Summer Glau...

You may be right. Although what this shows is that the Deflector dish was perhaps more powerful then what the Brattain, a Miranda class vessel, was able to give as an explosion, but not necessarily what a Galaxy-Class could. And even then, I'm not so sure. Look at ST 3, when the E-Nil explodes, it doesn't blow up so much, as if the explosion wasn't so powerful. Look at all the Mirandas blowing up in DS9, in the fleet battles. They didn't give up much of an explosion. It seems that ships exploding don't display such power, as if there was something in their "bellies" that somehow made their "lowly", basic power generation more powerful. For example, what is the exact role of the Dilitium crystal? Would it not be to increase the power generation possible throuhg M/AM reactions to unprecedented levels, levels not attainable with the M/AM quantities present in the ships?

You're right, it seems I suffered from an Inigo Montoya moment: "That word you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means!" This is a definition of "opinionated" from an online dictionary: "Holding stubbornly and often unreasonably to one's own opinions." And here I thought it only meant someone having opinions on every subject...

Neither do I, but I do think she's hot, and if someone's going to say he's seen better, he should mention women who are actually hotter then Summer Glau. Anna Paquin, Alyson Hannigan, Melissa Joan Hart just don't cut it... Nathalie Portman though, now that's another story...

Yeah, the movie, overall, was bad, but there are still some priceless moments: -Marshmelons... -"What does God need with a Spaceship?" -"I want my pain, I need my pain!" (Kirk's answer when Sybok proposes to take Kirk's pain away... -Sulu: "We're caught in a Blizzard, we can't see a thing!" Uhura: "Sensors say, Clear blue sky and a temperature of 80!" Chekov: "Look Sulu, the Sun's come up, it's a mee-ra-kel!" -Spock: "Captain, I do not think you realize the gravity of your situation!" Kirk: "Believe me Spock, Gravity is foremost on my mind!"... And a few others... So yeah, bad movie, still good moments...

He probably measured the ship when it was going to Warp, thus it was slightly elongated?