Picard578

Yeah, I see it now. Thanks.

Is it just me or there is some curvature present?

And cloning people is more costly than drafting them into military... beacouse that's what Stormtroopers seem to be - draftees.

That's what Lucas does. Gives people titles instead of pay raises. That's how Chee became what he is.

Give them titles instead of pay raise.

Last time I checked, Lucas owned Lucasfilm, not the opposite. Lucas owns Lucasfilm, as well as Star Wars lincense. If he says they're wrong, they're wrong.

Last I checked, I don't put either ST or SW EU above canon.

I could say same for you. But regardless of who of us is right here, it is true that most people on both sides come with predetermined result, based on which they like more.

ICS was killed by movies even before it came out...

F****** great. Narnia/Star Wars crossover. Yes, it is retarded.

This is one debate I most likely won't participate in (at least not much), due to my extreme unfamiliarity with both EU's. Here, UFP Alliance (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire) takes on Galactic Empire. EU materials only. For those who are unfamilliar with EU, yet want to participate, here are links to respective wikis: ST EU http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page SW EU http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page There will be no wars or incursions, but low-level activity of both Rebel Alliance and Maquis will continue for duration of war.

Please. When did my numbers go down? I did loads of calculations, and lowest numbers were for "Rise", about 200 MT. And lowest PhoTorp yield (that is, maximum yield) I ever advised was 500 MT. Now its around 17.3 to 31.4 GT. So don't try to warp reality to your likening. I change my views as I find new evidence or reconsider old one, or if I discover error in calculation. If you think that I should say "that is that" and cling to it even when it becomes clear that reasoning or calculations behind it are flawed... well.

Here, Federation Alliance (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire) takes on Galactic Empire. No EU materials allowed. Both sides are enjoying time of relative peace - while there will be activity by Maquis or Rebel Alliance, it will not be anything that might hamper ability of either side to wage war.

You got one thing wrong. Transphasic torpedoes are made to defeat Borg shields, there is no proof they can in any way bypass Imperial shields, and are not used by 24th century Starfleet (which is default participant for all GE vs UFP scenarios). And no, I don't agree that single starship could "eat Empire for breakfast".

Ah, EU. Maybe we should ask Lucas? And BTW, was there any info in TCW?

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi It seems that way. Althought I don't remember if it was said in movies (I didn't watch them completely for a long time). If it wasn't, then it's easy. If it was, we have a problem.

Yes, I do forget it, since it is EU material and therefore has nothing to do with this thread. 1000 years is only figure we have from canon.

Translated to best of my abilities: Jason: "Once we bring books in, Imperial hyperdrive will be slower than Star Trek Warp Drive." I suppose you are referring to my old mind play about possibility of UFP using ultra-dense deuterium, which was just that - mind play. Or maybe "Death Star drill"... I really should do calculationd for that...

Riiiiiiiiight. You don't know how to use your eyes, OR you have serious eyesight issues. Trenches on ISD and SSD are NOT identical. Trench on ISD is 16 meters high. As for Death Star trench... http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/scaling/dsscaling.html Explain me how it is NOT 3 times height of docking vestibule. I'm not guilty if EU is sometimes in line with canon. Really? So in short, you are saying: "That and that on this page is wrong, althought I did not read that page." Huh? You are saying that this: And this: points to anything other than fusion? Sun-dragons are legends, but narrator is quite clear and direct that fusion furnaces power everything from starships to podracers. Prove it. Narrator explicitly said "by energy of small artificial sun". ENERGY OF SUN, not ENERGY OUTPUT EQUIVALENT TO SUN'S. That is fusion. Same as your IQ. 0. Sun Dragons are legendary beings supposed to live within fusion generators. Since when mythological beings are used as fuel for power production? Explain me hyperdrive, then. Explain light-sabers. Explain proton torpedoes. Explain blasters. Explain hyperspace. Star Trek makes crapload of mistakes, but technology was mostly based on science and scientific theories, althought some of them were proved to be false in meantime. VFX department and writers not following guidelines set by advisors on show is another thing. And do we even know how superlaser works? Wait. We don't. We only know that field left behind destruction of Alderaan is far denser than what it should be if superlaser was DET. And then that wierd circles around Death Star after explosion. Riiiight. Look above. Riiight. If you want logical falacies, read your own posts or Wong's site. Or Star Wars EU in general.

Is it not? I found that on Darkstar's page. And everything I saw roughly supports that figure. Unsourced assumption can be confirmed by simply watching movies; docking scenes, to be precise. Nope. It is not. Watch transport escape scene; transport is around 8 - 9 times longer than X-wing (which is ~9.5 meters long). RotJ gives its length, based on quick estimate, as being ~9 to 10 times the length of X-wing. That is 85.5 to 95 meters in length. Middle figure is 90 meters, and it happens to be in EU too (meaning that at least someone actually watched movie before writing something). Trench on ISD is not the same size as trench on Executor; trench on ISD is 16 meters high, while this trench is over 45 meters high. 40 meters minimum. Did not click on link, eh? Everything is explained there. No, I did not. And how it is flawed? Please elaborate. Hydrogen, deuterium, name it. I took size of Millenium Falcon from Darkstar's site.

Here: Fusion furnaces power everything, from starships to Podracers. That part is so clear that there should be no discussion about it. As for second quote, it shows that Death Star too is powered by fusion - fragments are propelled past ships by "liberated energy of small artificial sun". Well, only thing in common that sun can have with reactor is the way it produces energy - that is, fusion. And if quote was referring to amount of energy, then it would have said "by amount of energy that is liberated by star" or something like that; also, "small, artifical sun" abviously refers to way Death Star's reactor works - that is, fusion, which is also way any living star produces energy, be it standard star, or red giant. As for fusion being standard: Granted, we are later told that it was fission furnace, but it is nuclear reactor nevertheless. And no, Star Trek and Star Wars are not different, except that Star Trek is relatively more realistic, and tries to explain its technobabble, while Star Wars does not go to such lengths to explain its technology. Here is for superlaser: Definetly not enough in modern terms. But Republic had no army at that time, and existed without any wars for 1000 years in well-explored modest-sized galaxy, so it is not as insane as you think. Besides, in TCW it is said that Republic will go bankrupt after funding production of 5 million clones, althought it probably includes money for additional research (probably to accelerate growth even more - they did not have a decade to grow these reinforcements, and maybe some other things), equipment, ships, training and so on. Ruler in Photoshop. Sometimes I use millimeters, sometimes pixels. You are talking about show where people need only air masks to go out in vacuum. And no, worm did not close the mouth. And where I said that ALL EU numbers are incorrect? WHERE? And I DO NOT use EU, idiot. We have a saying that "Even a blind chicken sometims finds a corn. EU is no exception. And you have problem with being as honest as a politician, with similar IQ (room-temperature level). If you are too lazy (more likely, stupid) to search it, here it is: http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/scaling/exscaling.html And what is wrong with that? When you find that number is wrong, you correct it. But YOU think that you are always correct, even when you are not, and you don't bother to check it in canon (I would guess that you never watched SW movies or read any of movie novels).

Really? So, you REALLY think that MOVIES, MOVIE NOVELIZATIONS, TCW, and RADIO PLAYS are part of EU? Beacouse it is ALL material I used, and NOTHING ELSE. You are either liar, or so unfamiliar with actual Star Wars canon that you don't know what is canon and what EU. Or you never saw/read anything outside of EU, which seems best explanation. 1) Power production is fusion, beacouse it is standard in canon. Superlaser is basically technobabble weapon. 2) No, it is not from EU source. Watch Attack of the Clones (which you OBVIOUSLY never did). When Obi-Wan talks to Kaminoan chief-of-state or whatever, she says that they have "200 000 units and million more on the way". And she is civilian, so it is not clear wether she used standard or military definition of unit. 3) I'm not surprised. 4) No, I used MOVIES. And I did my OWN scaling. 5) As above. Did you even notice a link? Or you simply like lying? 6) Everything I scaled I scaled from movies. I have no interest or knowledge in EU aside from that single book I read. And in that book, Death Star is nowhere mentioned. Or 1 million worlds total. Maximum is 100 000 inhabited worlds.

Yeah, from what I remember from Rise of Dark Force and Wookiepedia, there are several story-wise inconsistencies with movies; but I can't remember any internal inconsistencies, story-wise. As for firepower, it might be that guys at LucasLinc don't care about it - however, it might become problem when storyline of one book requires teratons of firepower, and storyline of another requires kilotons of firepower - and no, I don't mean implies, but that storyline requires it in that lower or higher firepower would make story as it is impossible to happen. Then, I'm no expert at EU, so...

It has to fit physics of universe in question. Of course, since both Star Wars and Star Trek universes use our universe as basis, it has to fit phsics of our own universe in most aspects; however, there are some things that are simply hard or impossible to explain with our current knowledge of phsics (some of wierder phaser effects for example). But if this is what you are asking, then yes, E=mc^2 still works. Superlaser or power production? 200 000 "units" (whatever that is) plus 1 000 000 on the way. However, I think that TCW suggests that "units" are actually individual clones, althought it could also be anywhere from fireteam up. Heavily inconsistent, but TNG episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" suggests 9 000 c sustainable speed in empty space. "The Chase" gives speed of up to 3 600 000 c, but it is mentioned that it overextended warp drive - plus it is mostly inconsistent with other showings where they have trouble getting dozen ships in response to immediate threat. Currently, I am mostly inclined to accept Graham Kennedy's "warp highway" idea to explain inconsistencies. ~120 kilometers. Scaling here. ~180 kilometers, but I'll probably have to do actual scaling someday. My scaling suggestssize of ~12 kilometers. Care to elaborate? Empire has up to 150 000 inhabited systems, but I don't think it has more than 300 million to few billion men in army total. Plus it does not recruit aliens, wich reduces its recruitment base, althought it is still vastly greater than that of UFP. On the other hand, UFP has ~1150 planets. If all other powers have similar count, then it is ~3500 planetrs total. However, most of planets in both sides seem to be relatively lightly populated - while some UFP colonies are probably near Earth in population, most are much smaller. Also, Star Wars planets seem to vary from city worlds to planets with population density less than that of modern-day Canada or Russia. As for military, here: http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/comparation/military.html While Empire has much larger manpower, you must remember that Republic enjoyed peace for 1000 years (during its entire lifetime) while Alpha Quadrant powers were constantly at, or under threat of, war with someone (including each other). Meaning that they will probably be much more militarized than Empire is, alhought Empire is probably more militarized than Republic.

I was unaware that Star Wars EU maintains continuity. If it does, then it does really bad job at it, from what I saw at Wookiepedia. As for Star Trek EU being used, most logical choice would be ones that conform best to rest of EU (that is, if we have 3 novels stating something is X, and one stating something is Y, we assume that this something is indeed X).