Picard578

Yeah, I see it now. Thanks.

Is it just me or there is some curvature present?

And cloning people is more costly than drafting them into military... beacouse that's what Stormtroopers seem to be - draftees.

That's what Lucas does. Gives people titles instead of pay raises. That's how Chee became what he is.

I think it's more likely that Lucas is merely musing about his personal ideas. Otherwise what the fuck is Lucas Licensing even doing?

Give them titles instead of pay raise.

Last time I checked, I wasn't the one trying to pull shit like saying Lucasfilm's canon policy is wrong.

Last time I checked, Lucas owned Lucasfilm, not the opposite.

Lucas owns Lucasfilm, as well as Star Wars lincense. If he says they're wrong, they're wrong.

Last I checked, I don't put either ST or SW EU above canon.

Not to say that you're wrong, but this is particularly hilarious coming from you.

I could say same for you. But regardless of who of us is right here, it is true that most people on both sides come with predetermined result, based on which they like more.

ICS was killed by movies even before it came out...

F****** great. Narnia/Star Wars crossover. Yes, it is retarded.

Mind play you clung to like a child holding a security blanket. When the majority of your adoring fans at SFJ weren't giving you the cheerleader routine you expected, your calc numbers went down until you got your cheerleader sqaud

Please. When did my numbers go down? I did loads of calculations, and lowest numbers were for "Rise", about 200 MT. And lowest PhoTorp yield (that is, maximum yield) I ever advised was 500 MT. Now its around 17.3 to 31.4 GT. So don't try to warp reality to your likening. I change my views as I find new evidence or reconsider old one, or if I discover error in calculation. If you think that I should say "that is that" and cling to it even when it becomes clear that reasoning or calculations behind it are flawed... well.

You got one thing wrong. Transphasic torpedoes are made to defeat Borg shields, there is no proof they can in any way bypass Imperial shields, and are not used by 24th century Starfleet (which is default participant for all GE vs UFP scenarios). And no, I don't agree that single starship could "eat Empire for breakfast".

Ah, EU. Maybe we should ask Lucas? And BTW, was there any info in TCW?

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi

It seems that way. Althought I don't remember if it was said in movies (I didn't watch them completely for a long time). If it wasn't, then it's easy. If it was, we have a problem.

You seem to forget that the Old Republic has been around for 25,000 years, not 1,000. 1,000 years would be the number of years the OR has been in relative peace not its entire existence.

 

Yes, I do forget it, since it is EU material and therefore has nothing to do with this thread. 1000 years is only figure we have from canon.

Translated to best of my abilities:

Jason: "Once we bring books in, Imperial hyperdrive will be slower than Star Trek Warp Drive."

And Picard has been called out on wanking before.

I suppose you are referring to my old mind play about possibility of UFP using ultra-dense deuterium, which was just that - mind play.

Or maybe "Death Star drill"... I really should do calculationd for that...

As explained above you used EU sources for the sizes of your known objects on top of your unsourced assumptions as to various objects relations between each other, like how you declared the trench to be thrice the size of the docking vestibule, and the trenches on an ISD and SSD to be identical.

 

Riiiiiiiiight. You don't know how to use your eyes, OR you have serious eyesight issues.

Trenches on ISD and SSD are NOT identical. Trench on ISD is 16 meters high.

As for Death Star trench...

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/scaling/dsscaling.html

Explain me how it is NOT 3 times height of docking vestibule.

Yet you used the EU for the sizes of your known objects in your scaling

 

I'm not guilty if EU is sometimes in line with canon.

Where? The quotes on your page is subject to interpretation, and you have provided no canon evidence to support your interpretation

 

Really? So in short, you are saying:

"That and that on this page is wrong, althought I did not read that page."

Hyperbole, also a no limit fallacy, and fusion of what? Sun Dragons? Also demonstrates the logical fallacies of division, and hasty generalization.

 

Huh? You are saying that this:

"Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers."

And this:

"Space filled temporarily with trillions of microscopic metal fragments, propelled past the retreating ships by the liberated energy of a small artificial sun."

points to anything other than fusion? Sun-dragons are legends, but narrator is quite clear and direct that fusion furnaces power everything from starships to podracers.

Again, hyperbole, and the logical fallacies of slippery slope, false dilemma, and false dichotomy

 

Prove it. Narrator explicitly said "by energy of small artificial sun". ENERGY OF SUN, not ENERGY OUTPUT EQUIVALENT TO SUN'S. That is fusion.

And what is the energy density of Sun Dragons?

 

Same as your IQ. 0.

Sun Dragons are legendary beings supposed to live within fusion generators. Since when mythological beings are used as fuel for power production?

Ha Ha hilarious. Some things are just better left unsaid.

 

Explain me hyperdrive, then. Explain light-sabers. Explain proton torpedoes. Explain blasters. Explain hyperspace. Star Trek makes crapload of mistakes, but technology was mostly based on science and scientific theories, althought some of them were proved to be false in meantime. VFX department and writers not following guidelines set by advisors on show is another thing.

So E=mc^2 is technobabble now? Yet another example of false dichotomy and the related logical fallacies.

 

And do we even know how superlaser works? Wait. We don't. We only know that field left behind destruction of Alderaan is far denser than what it should be if superlaser was DET. And then that wierd circles around Death Star after explosion.

You did in your scaling......idiot

 

Riiiight. Look above.

Alas, his objections are entirely reasonable, since you used the EU in your scaling, and many of your assumptions are based off of logical fallacies

 

Riiight. If you want logical falacies, read your own posts or Wong's site. Or Star Wars EU in general.

Through technobabble apparently since that is your excuse for the DS weapon being technobabble

 

Is it not?

And just where in canon(non EU) is the MF stated to be 22.5m wide? Scaling is flawed

 

I found that on Darkstar's page. And everything I saw roughly supports that figure.

Based upon your unsourced size for the MF and unscourced assumption between the DS I and DS II this scaling is also flawed.

 

Unsourced assumption can be confirmed by simply watching movies; docking scenes, to be precise.

Based upon your unsourced size for the MF and unscourced assumption between the DS I and DS II this scaling is also flawed.

 

Nope. It is not.

Where in canon pray tell is a rebel transport stated to be 90m long? Also where is your scaling showing the trench of an ISD is the same size as the trench on the Executor? More flawed scaling.

 

Watch transport escape scene; transport is around 8 - 9 times longer than X-wing (which is ~9.5 meters long). RotJ gives its length, based on quick estimate, as being ~9 to 10 times the length of X-wing. That is 85.5 to 95 meters in length. Middle figure is 90 meters, and it happens to be in EU too (meaning that at least someone actually watched movie before writing something).

Where in canon pray tell is a rebel transport stated to be 90m long? Also where is your scaling showing the trench of an ISD is the same size as the trench on the Executor? More flawed scaling.

 

Trench on ISD is not the same size as trench on Executor; trench on ISD is 16 meters high, while this trench is over 45 meters high. 40 meters minimum.

Your own quotes say the Empire is a million worlds. Source for number of Inhabited systems?

 

Did not click on link, eh? Everything is explained there.

Yet you used EU sources for ships used in your flawed scalings.

 

No, I did not. And how it is flawed? Please elaborate.

Fusion of what?

 

Hydrogen, deuterium, name it.

Odd, I dont remeber them stating the size of the MF or a rebel transport in canon

 

I took size of Millenium Falcon from Darkstar's site.

I'd like to see citations, including running times, on fusion being used as "standard in canon". And I'd really love to see a source for technobabble being used to describe the superlaser. I think that you've forgotten that Star Trek and Star Wars are different.

 

Here:

"Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers."

 

 

 

-----------

 

 

 

"Space filled temporarily with trillions of microscopic metal fragments, propelled past the retreating ships by the liberated energy of a small artificial sun."

Fusion furnaces power everything, from starships to Podracers. That part is so clear that there should be no discussion about it.

As for second quote, it shows that Death Star too is powered by fusion - fragments are propelled past ships by "liberated energy of small artificial sun". Well, only thing in common that sun can have with reactor is the way it produces energy - that is, fusion. And if quote was referring to amount of energy, then it would have said "by amount of energy that is liberated by star" or something like that; also, "small, artifical sun" abviously refers to way Death Star's reactor works - that is, fusion, which is also way any living star produces energy, be it standard star, or red giant.

As for fusion being standard:

'You ready for some power?' Luke asked Artoo, who was patiently waiting for his own form of nourishment. Luke took a small fusion furnace from an equipment box and ignited it, welcoming even the tiny glow thrown off by the small heating device, then took a power cable and attached it to Artoo [...] As power radiated through Artoo's electronic innards, the stout robot whistled his appreciation.

Granted, we are later told that it was fission furnace, but it is nuclear reactor nevertheless.

And no, Star Trek and Star Wars are not different, except that Star Trek is relatively more realistic, and tries to explain its technobabble, while Star Wars does not go to such lengths to explain its technology.

Here is for superlaser:

ANH novelisation page 178:

 

 

 

 

 

"Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple, but Luke had seen the shattered remnants of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station that the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion."

Actually, she's a product manager, you idiot. She knows her product. And I have watched the movie, I just don't accept Karen Travis's retarded idea that 1,200,000 soldiers is enough to conquer a region on a single planet, much less an entire galaxy. How many people were under arms in Europe during the period 1939-1945?

 

Definetly not enough in modern terms. But Republic had no army at that time, and existed without any wars for 1000 years in well-explored modest-sized galaxy, so it is not as insane as you think. Besides, in TCW it is said that Republic will go bankrupt after funding production of 5 million clones, althought it probably includes money for additional research (probably to accelerate growth even more - they did not have a decade to grow these reinforcements, and maybe some other things), equipment, ships, training and so on.

Your scaling is idiotic. Please provide evidence that you are looking at an equitorial rather than longitudinal trench. And also, where are your "milimeters" coming from? Are you using a ruler on your monitor? (I wouldn't put it past you, it would be consistent with the rest of your general sloppynes.)

 

Ruler in Photoshop. Sometimes I use millimeters, sometimes pixels.

Here's some more questions relating to my standard methods of analysis. What is the minimum size for a rocky moon to sphericalize? What is the smallest spherical object in the solar system? In order for the DS1 to be mistaken for a moon, it needs to have a radius that at least makes sense as a moon. Han Solo may not be an astrophysicist, but he's probably seen enough moons (just based on his boasting) to have an idea of exactly how big they have to be to be a sphere.

 

You are talking about show where people need only air masks to go out in vacuum. And no, worm did not close the mouth.

I did, I just think you're an idiot - and since your numbers match the incorrect numbers given on so many EU sources, the idea that you are working backwards to standard Trekkie stupidity is an acceptable hypothesis. It should be noted that ALL instances of the 120 km size are EU, out of date, or Trektard fansite.

 

And where I said that ALL EU numbers are incorrect? WHERE? And I DO NOT use EU, idiot.

We have a saying that "Even a blind chicken sometims finds a corn. EU is no exception.

You did not provide a link to your scaling methodology for the Executor.

 

 

 

I don't know if you have any interest or knowledge of the EU, but you've certainly shown that you like to peruse a number of questionable reference sources. And I believe you also have a number of problems with reading comprehensions, as is evidenced by your companion thread.

And you have problem with being as honest as a politician, with similar IQ (room-temperature level). If you are too lazy (more likely, stupid) to search it, here it is:

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/scaling/exscaling.html

Wow, so now you're changing your numbers over a matter of days?

 

And what is wrong with that? When you find that number is wrong, you correct it. But YOU think that you are always correct, even when you are not, and you don't bother to check it in canon (I would guess that you never watched SW movies or read any of movie novels).

Really? So, you REALLY think that MOVIES, MOVIE NOVELIZATIONS, TCW, and RADIO PLAYS are part of EU? Beacouse it is ALL material I used, and NOTHING ELSE. You are either liar, or so unfamiliar with actual Star Wars canon that you don't know what is canon and what EU. Or you never saw/read anything outside of EU, which seems best explanation.

1) Power production is fusion, beacouse it is standard in canon. Superlaser is basically technobabble weapon.

2) No, it is not from EU source. Watch Attack of the Clones (which you OBVIOUSLY never did). When Obi-Wan talks to Kaminoan chief-of-state or whatever, she says that they have "200 000 units and million more on the way". And she is civilian, so it is not clear wether she used standard or military definition of unit.

3) I'm not surprised.

4) No, I used MOVIES. And I did my OWN scaling.

5) As above. Did you even notice a link? Or you simply like lying?

6) Everything I scaled I scaled from movies. I have no interest or knowledge in EU aside from that single book I read. And in that book, Death Star is nowhere mentioned.

Or 1 million worlds total. Maximum is 100 000 inhabited worlds.

Storywise, the SW EU has great continuity. Even from the comparitively little I've read (9 novels, 2 technical guides, and the SW Encyclopedia), it seemed like this was a real history, with events millennia in the past being referenced.

 

 

 

On the tech and firepower side of things, however, the EU fluctuates wildly. For example, in the attempted Base Delta Zero of Nar Shaddaa in "The Hutt Gambit", 27 ships were required to perform it, it mentioned that the attack would leave wrecked buildings and bodies across that world, and fighters and shuttles would be needed to perform mop-up operations. And going by Wookiepedia, Nar Shaddaa is smaller than Mercury.

 

 

 

And before anyone accuses me of taking this from Darkstar's site, no, I didn't. I have this book at home, what with the Han Solo trilogy being some of my favorite SW novels.

Yeah, from what I remember from Rise of Dark Force and Wookiepedia, there are several story-wise inconsistencies with movies; but I can't remember any internal inconsistencies, story-wise. As for firepower, it might be that guys at LucasLinc don't care about it - however, it might become problem when storyline of one book requires teratons of firepower, and storyline of another requires kilotons of firepower - and no, I don't mean implies, but that storyline requires it in that lower or higher firepower would make story as it is impossible to happen. Then, I'm no expert at EU, so...

OK, a few questions on this one, mostly to determine how honest you are being. I'm assuming the "It has to fit modern physics unless explicitly stated" rule is in effect (as it should always be).

It has to fit physics of universe in question. Of course, since both Star Wars and Star Trek universes use our universe as basis, it has to fit phsics of our own universe in most aspects; however, there are some things that are simply hard or impossible to explain with our current knowledge of phsics (some of wierder phaser effects for example). But if this is what you are asking, then yes, E=mc^2 still works.

1. What is the operating mechanism of the Death Star? Why?

Superlaser or power production?

2. How many Clone troopers are there available in Attack of the Clones? Why?

200 000 "units" (whatever that is) plus 1 000 000 on the way. However, I think that TCW suggests that "units" are actually individual clones, althought it could also be anywhere from fireteam up.

3. What is the maximum warp speed. Why?

Heavily inconsistent, but TNG episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before" suggests 9 000 c sustainable speed in empty space. "The Chase" gives speed of up to 3 600 000 c, but it is mentioned that it overextended warp drive - plus it is mostly inconsistent with other showings where they have trouble getting dozen ships in response to immediate threat. Currently, I am mostly inclined to accept Graham Kennedy's "warp highway" idea to explain inconsistencies.

4. How large is the Death Star 1? Why?

~120 kilometers. Scaling here.

5. How large is the Death Star 2? Why?

~180 kilometers, but I'll probably have to do actual scaling someday.

6. How long is the Executor? Why?

 

My scaling suggestssize of ~12 kilometers.

Just by sheer weight of ship numbers and industrial capacity alone is enough to give the Galactic Empire an overwhelming edge.

 

Care to elaborate? Empire has up to 150 000 inhabited systems, but I don't think it has more than 300 million to few billion men in army total. Plus it does not recruit aliens, wich reduces its recruitment base, althought it is still vastly greater than that of UFP.

On the other hand, UFP has ~1150 planets. If all other powers have similar count, then it is ~3500 planetrs total. However, most of planets in both sides seem to be relatively lightly populated - while some UFP colonies are probably near Earth in population, most are much smaller. Also, Star Wars planets seem to vary from city worlds to planets with population density less than that of modern-day Canada or Russia.

As for military, here:

http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs-starwars/comparation/military.html

While Empire has much larger manpower, you must remember that Republic enjoyed peace for 1000 years (during its entire lifetime) while Alpha Quadrant powers were constantly at, or under threat of, war with someone (including each other). Meaning that they will probably be much more militarized than Empire is, alhought Empire is probably more militarized than Republic.

I have a bunch of questions related to how you want to interperet the Trek EU. Most of these questions have to do with the fact that until recently, absolutely ZERO effort was spent trying to maintain continuity in the Star Trek EU. At best, authors would maintain their own continuities and adopt in stories they liked. For example, I can think of three or four Kirk origin stories, non of which are compatible, but all of which are referenced at different times.

 

 

 

Here comes the questions:

 

 

 

Which Star Trek EUs are being used? Some of them are mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

Heck, there's at least 4-5 seperate continuities in the comics alone, not to mention the various books.

 

 

 

Did Kirk get resurrected by the Borg?

 

 

 

Is New Frontier included? What about the Fury Saga? Which Pocket books numbered novels, if any?

 

 

 

What's Saavik's origin story? Did New Earth happen?

 

 

 

Which of the 2 or 3 different versions of the end of the E-A happened.

 

 

 

Did Star Trek 4 follow immediately after Star Trek 3, or did the comics New Frontiers saga happen? What about the Trial of James T. Kirk sequence?

 

 

 

What about the Day of Honor sequence? Millenium? The Lost Years sequence? Best Destiny? The 2 or 3 Sulu commanding the Excelsior sequences?

 

 

 

Which, if any, non-broadcast Q stories took place?

I was unaware that Star Wars EU maintains continuity. If it does, then it does really bad job at it, from what I saw at Wookiepedia.

As for Star Trek EU being used, most logical choice would be ones that conform best to rest of EU (that is, if we have 3 novels stating something is X, and one stating something is Y, we assume that this something is indeed X).

Here, Federation Alliance (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire) takes on Galactic Empire. No EU materials allowed. Both sides are enjoying time of relative peace - while there will be activity by Maquis or Rebel Alliance, it will not be anything that might hamper ability of either side to wage war.

This is one debate I most likely won't participate in (at least not much), due to my extreme unfamiliarity with both EU's. Here, UFP Alliance (UFP, Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire) takes on Galactic Empire. EU materials only. For those who are unfamilliar with EU, yet want to participate, here are links to respective wikis:

ST EU

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

SW EU

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

There will be no wars or incursions, but low-level activity of both Rebel Alliance and Maquis will continue for duration of war.