Galactica 1978 vs Earthforce Omega

[Brian Young 11,994]

Lets say each ship is fully loaded and undamaged, but far from reinforcements.

Galactica has advanced super dispersive armor that is probably as strong as the shields of lots of ships we discuss. Firepower doesn't seem that impressive, with maybe a dozen anti starfighter turrets. It carries 4 squadrons of Vipers. Vipers are very fast, but have slow turning rates comparatively.

Omegas are slow and unwieldy, but have heavy advanced Centauri beam weapons they purchased from the Narns, which can slice and dice large capital ships. It carries 4 squadrons of Starfuries. Furies are very slow, but turn quickly comparatively.

So this is speed and resilience vs firepower and maneuverability (Starfuries).

Describe your scenario both with and without starfighter support.

[scvn2812 504]

This is a scenario with a lot of unknowns. Is there any footage of Galactica '78 craft attacking targets with properties we can realistically describe such as asteroids, planetary surfaces etc. ? Otherwise, the only thing we have to go off of for firepower would be her acceleration, which would result in some pretty obscene numbers. There is no technobabble that I know of to hint that they cheat at the energy cost of acceleration but on the other hand, we don't have a Death Star to provide corroborating evidence that the setting has some very extreme energy densities.

 

I'm assuming that each ship for arbitrary reasons genuinely wants to destroy the other no matter the personal or material cost.

 

I'll set firepower to the side for the moment because I don't know '78 well enough to feel comfortable making claims about its firepower without more data than just engine speeds.

 

Possible scenario:

 

I call this one warp strafing redux

 

This one hinges on the fire control of both ships.

 

Galactica can hit relativistic speeds, the speed of light or better. In this scenario, I assume she does just that on her approach. Given that she can hit such speeds and that we can observe something as bright as a space shuttle engine as far away as Earth with Hubble. If the Omega has a built in telescope that is as capable as Hubble (she certainly has the volume to sneak one in somewhere, though we'd be hard pressed to find it unless one of the objects in the busy front aspect could be a telescope) then she ought to see Galactica ignite her engines. The moment Galactica does this, she ought to be the brightest object in local space except for any stars in the system they're fighting in. It takes at least some moments for Galactica to accelerate up to near light speed so there will be a bit of light outrunning her by a few seconds to give her away. Perhaps enough to give the Omega time to prime weapons and plan a firing solution for the fractions of a second that Galactica will be within her very limited 900 kilometer engagement range. This will involve orienting the ship and weapons so that they are along Galactica's flight vector.

 

Galactica likewise will need to plan an automated firing solution for the fractions of a second the Omega is within her effective range (which I have no idea how far we can realistically say it is.)

 

Problems with this scenario:

 

* Galactica will pass through the effective range of Omega's weapons in 3 thousandths of a second at light speed.

 

* Any unpredictable variation that can be measured in plus or minus a few thousandths of a second or more between the computer giving the command to fire to the weapons and the actual firing of the weapons or the speed at which the beams move will result in a miss. So if the delay between pushing the fire button and the actual firing is as high as thousandths of a second or the velocity of the beams vary by as much as thousandths of a percent, hits are very unlikely.

 

* Galactica's engines do not outshine the brightest stars in the sky when she accelerates, therefore her engines may work in a manner which may make them difficult to detect using traditional optical and thermal sensors.

 

* It could also be that their engines kick out such tremendous power that they emit mostly gamma rays which would be invisible to the naked eye but be extremely obvious on any even remotely plausibly useful sensor suite for space navigation and warfare.

 

* We have no evidence that Earth Force actually equips their ships with decent optics. There are no big obvious telescopes on any of the ships that I am aware of, they may rely primarily on radar, lidar, whateverdar. Which means that the odds plummet dramatically for the chance of actually successfully detecting Galactica before she hits relativistic speed with enough time to orient the ship, orient her weapons, charge the weapons and tell the computer to open fire the moment Galactica is within range.

 

* If Galactica accelerated past the speed of light from far enough out, she might actually outrun her own light cone and catch the Omega totally unprepared. However, any problems with fire control as described above, are even further exasperated.

 

* Do Earth Force ships have any sort of FTL sensing equipment? Tachyon or gravity based sensors? I don't remember, I know B5 had a tachyon comm but I don't know if there's a basis for inferring that there is a version of that system that is militarily useful as a sensor or that it can be used on a starship. The presence of such a system would give the Omega a lot more time to prepare for Galactica but she still has .003 seconds or less to react when Galactica is actually in range.

 

I do not touch on fighters because all issues that Galactica and the Omega would have would be shared by their fighters.

 

I am not prepared to debate a battle in which Galactica slows down to a similar speed relative to Omega as I do not feel I have the information to make an informed opinion on their relative firepower.

Edited January 19, 2013 by scvn2812

[Brian Young 11,994]

We have seen Galactica and Pegasus attack Cylon Basestars. The damage inflicted did not seem any greater than that inflicted by strafing runs from Vipers in the Pegasus battle example.

No, there is no indication Earthforce ships have FTL sensors.

Galactica can indeed travel at light speed, but it seems to take a while to accelerate to that velocity. They probably could not perform a "Picard Maneuver" in battle.

Vipers are very capable fighters. They can travel at light speed, and can get there pretty quickly. They definitely have acceleration compensation, built into the suit. Their firepower is impressive for star fighters, as Apollo took out a small Cylon base with a quick strafing run. All those things are far superior to Starfuries, but Furies have a turning advantage, and definitely have enough firepower to destroy Vipers in return. As such, Vipers are definitely superior offensively, but Furies may have an advantage in close protection of the mothership, where blazing speed is neutralized.

Earthforce ships are heavily "armored," but it is not likely advanced armor like Galactica's, and can therefore probably be ignored. It is probably just steel or titanium or something. Rather, just consider the ship a large, heavy target, possibly twice the mass of Galactica. It is slow, but can pivot quickly, and has turrets, so Galactica's superior maneuverability is only a slight advantage. Omegas are a bit like a tank, bulky and slow, but packing a punch.

Once again, Galactica is tough but has less firepower, Omegas less resilient but pack the heat.

[Brian Young 11,994]

As far as the acceleration goes, I assume that is in reference to the ICS acceleration thing. Just touching on that as a digression, Vipers make orbit in about twice the time as fast ships in Star Wars, and their firepower does indeed reflect that, as Apollo's strafing run seems comparable to the X-Wing strafing run against the skyscraper in ANH, or Luke's "got a little cooked" strafing run. However, Galactica can not keep pace with Vipers, and it is by orders of magnitude. In Star Wars, destroyers can chase down fast ships like Millennium Falcon, or perhaps even X-Wings(?). This is not the case with Galactica, and therefore we should not assume similar power levels. In fact, at "flank speed," it took Galactica several minutes to pass the "Gun on Ice Planet Zero."

In a general sense, Vipers seem to have similar or superior firepower to Galactica's turrets.

[scvn2812 504]

Vipers strafing a base:

 

How small is small? What kinds of damage effects do we see? Are we talking the level of destruction that could be done by a fighter-bomber with a half dozen or so JDAMs? B52 carpet bombing? Fat Man and Little Boy? Bikini Atoll? Are there any signs that Apollo's strafing run might have resulted in a new volcano at the site by virtue of the over penetration of the crust? At the lower end of the spectrum, a couple meters of titanium is actually a pretty big deal for protection, at the upper end its about as much protection as Jack Sparrow seasoning himself with paprika when faced with the cannibal tribe and no way out.

 

I still see the same problems. Depending on Galactica and the Viper's sensor ranges, if they can detect the Omega from far enough away to get up to speed or are already traveling at speed (because accelerating to relativistic speeds without 1 joule does the work of 1 terajoule technobabble or decelerating from them is a positively obscene amount of energy) then the question becomes can an Omega detect them far enough out to prepare and is there any way it can prepare to try and take shots at targets that will be in and out of its range in thousandths of a second?

 

Assuming the Vipers and Galactica *can't* get up to their top speed, then they still have very formidable accelerations that are going to be a problem for Omega, assuming they can accelerate to relativistic speeds in a practical amount of time, we're still talking about targets moving dozens, even hundreds or thousands of times faster than what Omega normally engages. Maybe the Omega has longer than thousandths of a second to get it right, but how long? Hundredths? Tenths of a second?

 

Is there any way to gauge the reaction time of their weapons by using footage of Omegas using their pulse cannons to intercept each other's fire? It is entirely possible that a Viper with a top speed in excess of light speed and a few minutes of acceleration time might actually be outrunning the pulse cannon fire Omegas can shoot down with their defensive batteries.

[scvn2812 504]

As far as the acceleration goes, I assume that is in reference to the ICS acceleration thing. Just touching on that as a digression, Vipers make orbit in about twice the time as fast ships in Star Wars, and their firepower does indeed reflect that, as Apollo's strafing run seems comparable to the X-Wing strafing run against the skyscraper in ANH, or Luke's "got a little cooked" strafing run. However, Galactica can not keep pace with Vipers, and it is by orders of magnitude. In Star Wars, destroyers can chase down fast ships like Millennium Falcon, or perhaps even X-Wings(?). This is not the case with Galactica, and therefore we should not assume similar power levels. In fact, at "flank speed," it took Galactica several minutes to pass the "Gun on Ice Planet Zero."

In a general sense, Vipers seem to have similar or superior firepower to Galactica's turrets.

 

 

Bare in mind that at this point I am pleading ignorance on Galactica '78 so I'm taking your assumptions and running with them. Let's see if we end up in the same place or if we hit a fork in the road and one of us shouldn't have taken that left at Albuquerque.

 

You've thus pegged Vipers within parity of where you pegged Omegas back in Babtech days. Unless your assumptions for an Omegas' fire power have changed, you didn't downgrade Galactica to sub-Omega firepower, if her per turret firepower is near a Viper's, then you still have Galactica with comparable firepower to the Omega, substantially greater acceleration, arguably superior protection and a wing of craft capable of orders of magnitude greater acceleration than Omega or her Starfuries with near-Omega firepower.

 

If the Vipers have to slow down to fight due to not being able to target something that will be in their engagement envelope and out again in less than a full second, then I see no way Starfuries that can be menaced by a 200 megawatt pulse cannon can harm Vipers. Under attack by highly agile craft with capital ship firepower taking house sized chunks out of it with every pass, I see this going about as well for the Omega as trying to fight White Stars did in the EA civil war.

[Brian Young 11,994]

Nobody seems interested, so I'll give my version.

Agreed, if fighters are available, Vipers dominate the Omega. Starfuries have superior tumbling ability, but as they lack acceleration compensation, they would be slow, easy targets for Vipers. They could probably defend the mothership in formation as well as Vipers, where speed is not necessary, but in slowly crossing the distance between ships, they would be vulnerable. This means it is a defensive battle for Earthforce, and offensive for the Colonials. And Vipers do indeed have sufficient firepower to take out the Omega with or without Galactica's support.

I think you're over thinking in terms of acceleration speed and reaction time, because those things are not known. We therefore cannot derive an advantage/disadvantage assessment. The data is insufficient.

If no fighters are available, I think it is a more even fight. Galactica is more resilient, but Omegas probably have superior firepower, including interceptors. Fans of either show could claim victory with some validity. I'd still give Galactica a slight advantage due to superior mobility. The Omega can pivot quickly, as seen when they bugged out in Severed Dreams. This would allow them to keep their guns trained on Galactica, but it also places Galactica on the offensive and the Omega on the defensive, which is advantage Galactica.

[scvn2812 504]

Well I sort of intended for the question of whether or not it was possible to fight at such lop sided relative velocities to be an open question for both sides. From what I've seen, it seems that it is at least preferable if not mandatory that regardless of the actual velocities involved (meters per second, kilometers per second, relativistic) the RELATIVE velocities in a dog fight are never all that high. Which would be a similar issue for Star Wars fighters, Death Gliders etc. all have some pretty radical straight line acceleration but the relative velocities between the fighters and their targets are always pretty close. Otherwise, human reaction time wouldn't allow for pilots to be able to perform their duties if targets are zipping through each other's firing arcs in fractions of a second.

[Brian Young 11,994]

But if we change it from the typical "blow up the other ship in deep space" scenario to something more realistic, like an Omega attacking a planet, with Galactica protecting the planet, would it be different?

[scvn2812 504]

Not fundamentally, the Omega has to get within 900 km of the planet to zap anything on the surface, maybe closer if its a hardened target like a bunker, ie something tougher than a capital ship. If Galactica is defending something on the surface, then the logical place for her to be is in orbit directly above it with a Viper patrol providing eyes to watch the other side of the planet.

 

The Omega's ftl system enables her to avoid a fight with Galactica if the mission doesn't require it but given that the Omega at best has a firepower advantage over Galactica (more likely she's at a disadvantage) and how swift, brutal and decisive capital ship combat is in B5, this doesn't speak to me of the Omega surviving long enough to complete any meaningful objective that takes it within range of Galactica and her Vipers. A ship with similar firepower to an Omega but substantially greater durability will rapidly punch holes in the Omega until she's a burning hulk (should only take a few minutes judging by B5 engagement times) and take little damage in return.

[OS@M@ 102]

I will fight Earthforce!