Kor_Dahar_Master

You seem to be adding things every time you post and while im sure it is not deliberate ios there a place where you have posted all the details, facts, figures and assumptions so i can read through it imnstead of getting bite sized bits?. While i agree with you we are still constrained by the prime directive of sci-fi debating the "suspension of disbelief" and in that regard we must accept that those M/AM photon torpedos exploded with that pattern and light show in that way. Chalk it up to the photons being programmed to compensate for relativistic effects of traveling at warp 9.65 and needing to compensate for the fact as soon as the explosion starts and the torps engines are vaporised it would at least slow down if not drop out of warp as we know the propulsion is required to stay at warp and you cannot coast. I always figured the explosion would be directly on the hull so the hull material and atmosphere in the ship would do that, and yes vaporisation is the most intense of the heats effect but after that we have melting and burning as we move out from the point of highest temperature. x1000 on a whim regarding what we do not know?, yet you deny shields we know exist in the SW universe just cos they are not mentioned even though the law of thermo dynamics supports them being in effect?. I saw that they were not scorch marks and pointed it out along with descriptions of what i saw, your poor eyesight or unwillingnesss to research your "scorch claims" properly is not my problem nor my responsability.

I have never said otherwise. Actually what i said was that it is far more likely that the borg would be prepared for a simple M/AM explosion than they would phaser fire. The delta quadrant may have tech that has a simular NDF effect but that is not the same as being preprepared for the exact phaser frequency the E-D was using. NEITHER OF US CLAIMED IT you just tried to parcel me up with the idiots that do. While that is technically accurate due to the fact you can use the technicallity that DET weapons are only limited by your power supply and as such are theoretically almost limitless. HOWEVER as you are limited to a FED power supply we would need to know a "effect to power input ratio" of both before we could decide whtch is the more effective. After all pure DET is the least complicated and least adjustable option so if your DET weapon output is below the level of power a cube can tank you do no damage but as we have seen in the series a NDF weapon can be adjusted so it does some dmg at even very low levels of power. Shrapnel comes from explosions and NDF weapons tendancy to well NDF stuff does not lend itself to shrapnel really. The laws of thermodynamics clearly say that if the cube had no shield then the torps would have hit hull and done damage so we are discussing 2 routes to take as we see no damage done by them at all: 1. Your "ten tons only" torpedo theory that you had to "fluff" by 1000 just to make it look anything but absurd, that also contradicts direct comments about their being no damage to the cube when if you include heat, kinetic and vaporisation dmg we would see a visable effect or it would have been mentioned. 2. That the shield was there but was not mentioned due to its obvious effect and that considering the range we see the photons explode on the flat of the cube facing them at it is unlikely we would have seen a "shield effect" (bubble or otherwise) at that distance.

I do recall a comment you made regarding "bowed out" but when i asked what that was you did not reply, so i did read it, i did reply and you ignored (post #31 right at the top). So have i and it is clear that they do not have a traditional outer armoured hull and it is obvious that the cube is covered in conduits amoung other things. I actually think it is unreasonable to assume that they are totally unarmoured due a cubes primary purpose but i also find it amusing that you say it IS totally unarmoured and the weaker the hull is the more your theory looks poor due to the laws of thermodynamics you preach about. Actually you said your calculations showed "10 tons straight" and you had to add radiation shielding/armor factor of 1000 to get your chosen figure. Did the "10 tons straight" honest figure you initially got not give you a inkling that you were calculating from a false premise?, the very fact you had to fluff it up by "adding radiation shielding/armor factor of 1000" to get your chosen figure should have been a less than subtle indication. I have never seen any M/AM explosions in the sky above my house let alone in space while traveling at high warp so i am unable to say with any degree of exactitude how they "should" look. Maybe you have a link to such visual evidence that happened where you live and if so can i see it?. Oh and where do i suggest a yield of any sort?. Actually i would say it is a little under 10 m3 of vaporisation damage AND what ever heat and kinetic damage that the unarmoured/unshielded/pipe/conduit stuff in area surrounding the vaporisation point suffered. As i pointed out above i replied to your "bowed out" comment with a question, you ignored or could not read. Actually it is you in the fact that you support such a stupid theory that is the dumbass, your faulty premise gave you such absurdly low stats that you had to "fluff" them and not only that but when you developed the theory it was counter to your "the laws of thermodynamics" and "scorch marks" components. Does it rhyme with....Arrogant mods that are convinced they are right and can never be wrong and as such any who disagree must either change positions or be banned because "not seeing the truth" is obviously trolling and not debating properly/logically?. Yea i am familiar with the attitude amoung certain individuals. I have read the rules and unless im mistaken i have not broken any. I have nothing against the President in rule 1 nor have a broken rules 2-5, the 1-4 frowned upon stuff i have not done. You may wanna read this part before you make any more threats just cos you dislike the taste of your own medicine:- Just as ASVS has always been, this board is built on free and open debate. Heavy handed moderation is NOT allowed here. Just because someone is a mod/admin doesn't make them immune from flaming or debate. I have had dealings with much more abusive individuals than you, i shut them down then depending on the level of abuse i ignore them. You main problem is that you expect me to accept what you say and call me stupid when i do not, however so far it is you who has had to concede/revise your scorch marks idea due to my arguments against them so i do have considerably more respect for you than others who just bellow insults when they are shown a closing argument on a part of their theory. It should not take me long then i suppose.

His silly insults in red are irrelavant and the desperate bleating of a boy drowning in his own crap, the threats for replying in kind are another matter. I am refering to giving me a insulting title ("Jason's Poolboy" and "Jason the Second" or whatever) and avatar (i removed the avatar) just because i questioned his craply worded explanation of his theory or shot down his crappy theory (depending on if it was his explanation that sucked or the theory itself) and then making threats as a MOD because i gave him a insulting nickname back ("thermodynamic boy"). I would not worry about it pal im not and i know that when a person in authority is challenged on a debate topic that he can some times EXPECT his words or beliefs to be law and can react poorly and with ad hom and even threats instead of actually addressing the issue like a regular member would.

Ok so this is what i have managed to piece together of your theory so far. 1. High energy weapons/discharges leave large black scorch marks. 2. The borg cubes outer area consists of large gaps of empty space and interwoven pipes ect and no armour. 3. The borg had no shields when the torps hit. 4.The laws of thermodynamics will be acting on the hull when the torps hit. 5. You claim the photons hit for 10kt. So if the photons are hitting the hull 1. Why do we not see more "scorch marks" from the explosions, especially since the explosions seem to be roughly 1500m in diameter. 2. If the hull is unarmoured and just interwoven pipes and empty space the damage would be visible and noticeable but it is not and in fact it is directly mentioned that the photons have no effect..."the borg ship was not damaged". I know you think you are making sense but from my perspective you are contradicting yourself, first you say there are scorch marks and that borg cubes are mostly open space and pipework ect without armour. Then you start raving about "the laws of thermodynamics" and how the cube is also unshielded and in doing so all that you are saying that the torps should hit hull (no shield), they should do noticable damage (no armour and mostly empty space and pipes ect) that contradicts what we see and hear on screen and to cap it all we see some of the photon torps explode in a 1500m diameter blast that should have left nasty sooty black "scorch marks" over a large amount of the hull of the cube. Maybe you suck at explaining or maybe you just have not looked at your theory as a whole and only in pieces but from my perspective it is a mass of contradiction. "Inadequate educational accomplishment"...?, Try virtually 0 education as i did not even finish high school in the UK and hardly turned up for the 3 years before i finally got booted out. I am however now 39 years old and own a established and very successful landscaping and groundwork company, oh and i sometimes go to debate forums like this one while im calculating quotes for customers as a form of chillax therapy. Pointing out the rather large flaws in your theory (or explanation) and serving you up what you dish out in regards to insults and name calling so you had to make a threat as a moderator rather than find a way out like a good debater is a points victory or even a TKO in my book pal. Firstly I consider getting booted from the retard fest that is SDN as a mark of honor, secondly i mostly liked SB apart from the biased moderation, and lastly if you cannot take the same "mocking" you dish out by all means abuse your power as a moderator, as i mentioned above you would not be the first to do so after i made a theory of theirs look stupid and its still a win just like when you moved away from suspension of disbelief. You could try the rather extreme idea and either explain your theory better, modify it if you cannot explain the flaws or just have the balls to say you were wrong (if you are wrong) and research another one that makes sense. I am still researching that topic and have made no decision or comment on how they work at all yet, i may consider doing so after i have finished my research.

Anyway to make it short "thermodynamic boy" needs to show how even though he claims there is no evidence of shields on the cube when the photons hit why they do 0 dmg to the hull of the cube, not slight, not even scorching or a tiny dent ZERO EFFECT. We certainly do dot see this:- Mocking moderators, while perfectly allowable, is not generally the wisest course when you can't seem to make any argument other than: "WHAAAAAAAAAA I'm a fucktard who believes in magic and everyone must agree with me. SDN was mean to me. SB was mean to me. I'm a Crack Smoking Donkey Fucker!"

WTF is the "bowed out" statement. Who said they did not have a NDF effect?. Are you sure you are arguing with the right person cos you keep claiming i have said things i have not. Wankery?, i was agreeing with you.... Can you bloody read, i am saying what im saying why are you claiming or thinking that im claiming summat else or more?. WTF is wrong with you and why are you arguing things i have not said?. You claimed others said it and tried parceling me up with them, i was replying to that it, try reading your own bloody writing. Who knows, we can bet that they did not expect to be shot at by projectiles as they were going after the federation and the borg being efficient would not waste time with shielding for it. I understand that just fine as my comments below show. So to put it simply your so called science idea is a worthless pile of crap because the torps have NO EFFECT AT ALL not even scorching or marking of any kind let alone damage however small. You preach about your science just like that twat on SB but when it comes down to it the fact is that the damage your so called science MUST SHOW from the torps no matter the yield is not there. So please explain how if this is accurate:- "we saw no evidence of shields, which means that the laws of thermodynamics will be acting on the original body, not the absorption effect of the shields." Why we see 0 damage nada, zero, ZIP or even scorching on the hull of the cube from the torps, the laws of thermodynamics you wave about like you invented them say there MUST BE.

You finished watching all those episodes already?, what were the results pls and what % did they miss/hit for the consession to be valid?. Fail im afraid as we can see many areas of black on the cube where no material is present and they are in areas that the E-D did not fire at and are also follow the shape of the surrounding visable material. As such it is obvious that at a certain depth we are unable to see inside proving the crater and disproving the scorch mark idea. Well duh of course summat like a tactical cube would take less damage. A normal cube is gonna have some armour as its designed to assimilate entire cultures (the more advanced the better) and it would be stupid to think these cultures had no fleets. The cube would need to survive long enough to adapt to their weapons so some armour is likely. I am not infering anything im looking at the image and seeing 1 divot and 2 holes, not scorch marks HOLES with twisted and melted material surrounding them. The shields that stop the torps from damaging the ship obviously. Actually we see a lot of disruptors more than phasers and in voyager we saw examples of loads of differing energy weapons rather than just phasers. I have not seen your calcs but while im sure the math is fine i doubt il agree with the perspective or starting point you base it off. Well that is stupid cos we see the borg adapt to phasers loads of times over the series. Do we?. You know that, i know that, but that does not mean that what we see is going to be consistant with that. I find your scientific basis contradictory, first you say the borg have no shields, then you say "an elementary understanding of thermodynamics would indicate that any absorbed energy must be dealt with somehow". Now if both those are true then if the photons are exaton, petaton, teraton, gigaton, megaton or low friging kiloton does not matter because at any of those levels the explosions would have caused damage to the cube instead of doing jack.

We have no conclusive proof he was targetting the emitter for the first shots, and yea sometimes they miss or are unable to destroy subsystems il let you watch every episode of trek and count how many times they miss or hit when they try so we can work out what is the %.... Lighting?, camera?, airbrushed?, model?. Il not comment on your abandonment of "suspension of disbelief" other than to say....CONCESSION ACCEPTED. Far less energy than what, i made no post about the energy required?. Oh dear oh dear not again.....CONCESSION ACCEPTED . Their shields blocked the energy of the torps but did not block the phasers (at least initially) meaning that the phasers could penetrate the shields but the photons could not due to how each of them operated. Id say its you who are dumb, blind or both as we see exactly that on the screen. PS: How do i delete the second post as it was unintended?.

Really?, they regularly target subsystems very effectively so i would say your comment is inconsistent. 1. They are two very deep holes, scorch marks do not leave partly disintigrated material of the hull sticking out at odd angles. 2. Who claimed that the cube was solid, and why would they make such a stupid claim about a ship that kinda needs to be hollow for a crew to be inside it?. 3. As it was not solid even on the outside (a silly thing to say anybody has claimed due to it being a SHIP not a block of summat) your claim that you see scorch marks is proven wrong because even though phasers are odd they are unlikely to be able to scorch the non solid (empty space parts) of the cubes hull. 4. Do we see scorch marks on the part of the hull it disintigrated on the right edge?, nope then i guess the phasers do not leave any. I did not dodge the photon torpedo issue i just ignored it as its irrelavant due to the fact that while phasers would need adapting too due to there odd design/effects a simple explosive like a photon torpedo would have been encountered by the borg on may occasions.

Then the rather obvious answer is that the source of the beam would not be the emitter and that makes sense in a decentralised design as the power for the beam would come from all over the ship not one point. A lot of the energy from the shot that hit the edge went through the hole and was lost but still dug a chunk roughly 700m in diameter out of the cube. The next 2 shots hit the cube more centrally so none of the phaser effect is wasted and must do considerable internal damage as the 20% statement shows. Im not sure WTF you are talking about in regards to scorch marks cos i see the 1 hole on the edge of the cube (that only took part of the phaser hit) and we can see the depth of. Also 2 other holes that took the all of the phaser blast and are so deep we cannot see the bottom or the internal damage. The cube face being 3km x 3km shows the craters roughly 700m, 600m and 350m in diameter http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5621/qwhocube.jpg .

I enjoyed those scenes, we see a lot of the firepower from the feds held back in most episodes as they target engines ect, it was only in "Q Who" where they put craters that are several KM wide and god knows how deep into a borg cube that we see the gloves come off a bit.

I was 9 and as you can imagine at that age i loved it.

If you do not mind me asking why you assume vaporisation to match the size of the external explosion?. I would think that a 50m visable explosive effect would only require a lot smaller vaporisation of material due to the fact that a cloud of gas created vaporising quantities of matter are going to be much larger than the matter itself. I know we are not talking about water but about the ships hull/internal material but using water as a guide the volume of water vapour is more than three thousand times as large as the volume of liquid water at the same temperature and pressure.

How much e does it take to turn a bolder red hot in a few seconds like we see in the series?, figure it out and you have A answer for at least a lower limit. Cos Worfs brother wanted some burned bird meat for dinner.

It is not the same thing unless we genetically created the original chicken, the preds discovered the aliens and started farming them there is no proof they invented/initially created them.

I know in a lot of the books its mentioned that the Preds farm the Aliens for hunts but i do not remember it being mentioned that they actually created them.

Considering that fluidic space is matter would this be a large kick in the ass to ships that have to concern themselves with mass shadows?. They would be stuck to traveling without hyperspace and we have no idea how the empires turbo lasers would react to being fired through matter instead of a vacuum.

Well it certainly has a logical consistancy true to known tech. It seems to me that they have a variety of effects so the answer is that they have a variety of settings that includes a DET and more exotic effect. After all if they used the DET option in close range they would end up cooking themselves in a cloud of superheated gas or dying due to a explosion in a lot of the circumstances we see on screen.

You seem to be stuck on the fact that they have no recoil but seem to impart kinetic energy to the target, well designers have been putting low recoil mechanics in weapons for years so i personally do not find it unreasonable to think that a culture with the tech for anti-grav units as well as artificial gravity and inertial dampeners would have found a solution. If a ship that goes from stationary to warp 9 in a few seconds can be strolled about on like it is standing still then someting as simple as recoil should not be a problem, so would not a small inertial dampener in the phaser solve the recoil issue?.

Thanks for the welcome WOOOT!!. Is the "heavy physics hard sumsies" part gonna start soon cos im almost out of popcorn?.

While the federation is unwilling to use their tech in such ways they have shown on multiple occasions to either possess such technology or in the very least have the level of technological know how to instantly identify the capabilities of such devises from a simple scan. The wrath of khan, (Genesis Device, while developed to make dead worlds habitable it would also reorganise the matter on live worlds as well if used upon them). While said to be unstable during Kirks era protomatter was easily used in DS9 - Second Sight to reignite a star and obviously nelix had a container for storing it (VOY - Mortal Coil). TNG - Half a life, (The fed uses a tech that is supposed to fix a dying sun by increasing the fusion within it, the reaction fails to stabilize and the sun explodes). Generations, (sorins torpedo, The materiak used was already known to the federation in regards to its capabilities regarding stopping fusion in a star as such it could be argued that due to data and geordie examining and running a full scan on the torpedo that the federation is able to develop a simular tech). DS9 - By Inferno's Light (A Dominion trilithium, tekasite and protomatter device was instantly identified as being capable of destroying the bajoran sun).

Perhaps not but considering the variety of effects and abilities we have seen from phasers a NDF and DET effect may just be 2 options they have depending on how you set them.